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All breaking balls do some wear on the arms so to blame one pitch for all of the issue is wrong. Great report video. I would add John Smoltz in the case not a screw baller but the point he had many arm problems due to curves and the splitfinger pitches. But they want to give all blame on one pitch just doesn’t support the case.

Baseball is unnatural, not just screwball. People are not born playing baseball by default.

Its not the screwball its the person throwing that screwball as hard as that kid was if you look at Vernando's compared to the other kids. Vernando's looked like it was going slower which is the reason they call breaking pitches and anything not a fastball a off speed pitch. Its called off speed because you actually need to take a little off of it so it don't kill your arm.

just like my forefathers did in the caveman wars, ok?

@@pandookrb as illustrated in the seminal case Marbury's head vs Madison's rock..

This comment wins :)

overhand pitching is VERY natural to human movement, so natural that humans are the only primates that can actually do it; it stresses our bodies, yes, but that's just because evolution is a dumb process that stops at the point where one's genes are able to consistently pass on, not continual improvement. People who say pitching is "unnatural" need to really learn what that word actually means, lol.

lol. perfect comment

Yeah it's almost become a prerequisite that you have to have TJ surgery before you can make the bigs.

Are you a real pitcher if you've never had TJ🤣🤣🤣

Its been proben by science that the screwball impacts the ucl less severely than other pitches. Its a very safe pitch

Like popping a cherry...

Warren Spahn was master of the screwball, and I never heard anything about special surgery for him. The guy also pitched many complete games, not like these days.

More so the fact people lack the skill today to throw it. It's a control issue. If the didn't say it caused injuries they would have to admit the players today require steroids to hold up to figures of the past.

@@joshportie That is just again a fallacy... deterring people from using and not teaching said pitch makes them not very good at it. Not the other way around.

That would be very funny

@jean jacques its really not a fallacy. By every measurable metric people in the past were stronger and faster than today. By past I'm referring to 300 years and beyond. It's been a slow gradual decline. The evidence speaks for itself.

@@joshportie what are you on about never in history have athletes been so specialized and so efficient (through medical discoveries and also drugs let's be honest) average height as increased by about 3 inches compared to the historical average in the past 100 years (European men) you are talking out of your ass yeah sure the average office worker is weaker than your average farmer from 200 years ago (not even necessary because the easy availability of food allows us to develop much more than our ancestors and build more muscle) etc but your casual gym bro is stronger than them. Idk what you are on about but the evidence you are talking about is either referring to mythological achievements or regarding some very specific metric that is not relevant to strength or speed.

It reminds me of throwing a backup ball in bowling. I can do it but if I do it a lot, I definitely start to feel it in my elbow especially and a little in my shoulder. But then there are people that that are just built to do it naturally and have zero issues with it.

I have large palms but my fingers are relatively short. When I was younger I’d sometimes “lose” the ball out of the back of my hand and it would like a screwball. I realized in hs that if I put three fingers on the seam and put more pressure on the ring finger I could throw a ball with two seam action. I called it a screwball but it didn’t drop a whole lot.

This video explains pronating motions completely backward from how theyre really thrown

@@proper_noun436 While I haven't reached that point of the video, I assume they're explaining the supination that precedes pronation and calling that pronation.

@@wingracer1614 The wrist motion for a screwball is a lot closer to the normal bowling motion where you're trying to get it to curve.

That elbow pressure happens when pressing weight, especially a barbell, at max effort (the strain on the body) and/or max intensity (the weight of the bar/dumbbell/whatever) out in front of the body as well. That's why people who press a couple times a week will develop shoulder and elbow tendonitis at some point. I've felt it come and go in both shoulders, elbows and forearms. I don't feel it as much when overhead pressing.

“I love Screw and Balls.” - The Diddler

In The Show 21 Williams has a screwball which is interesting

So aren't pitches today automatically identified by statcast based on their velocity, movement, spin, etc? I can think of examples where a pitcher calls his pitch a slider but the pitch tracker IDs it as a curve, or where an announcer refers to a pitch as a slider even though statcast calls it a cut fastball. Is there a criteria for screwballs that Devin Williams's doesn't meet?

@@TheEloheim I think that there's no automatic classification for screwball since they're so rare. My guess is they specifically planned it for Honeywell's because it was well known that he threw one

The only thing that Devin William's changeup might have different from a "true" screwball is drop caused by active spin. The big difference between sliders and curveballs is the amount of drop from active spin, with a curveball having a spin axis more strongly angled downwards to cause them to drop much further (along with curves usually having a higher active spin percentage, but that's not always the case), with the slider's drop largely coming simply because it doesn't have much or any backspin based on the active component of its spin axis being largely horizontal. Similarly the difference between a "true" screwball and a circle change with good movement is that a screwball has a spin axis tilted down far enough to actively push the ball down, just like a curveball does, while a circle change has a more horizontal spin axis that is almost purely side-spin with the drop coming solely from a lack of backspin. A screwball also generally would also have a higher spinrate than a changeup, in the same way that a curveball has a higher average spinrate than a slider. Curveballs have an average spinrate right around 2600 RPM with a common range from ~1900-3250 while sliders have an average spinrate of around 2450 RPM with a common range from ~1800-3000 RPM. Changeups have even less spin, only ~1750 RPM on average and a common range from ~1,250-2,350. Something with a noticeably down spin axis, angled towards the arm side, and a 2,200+ RPM spin rate would definitely classify as a screwball if it was an automatic pitch category for Statcast. It's just too different from the average change-up to be classified as the same pitch, especially when much more similar pitches (such as the cutter and slider) exist with separate classifications.

@@Pretzulkj Thanks for all the detailed info! Tbh i had no idea the analogy between circle change/screwball and slider/curveball held so well.

He was also a co-winner of the Cy Young award in 1969. My favorite pitcher as a kid. Great screwball pitcher.

Cuellar was great. Orioles fan forever, and as a Senior in HS sat 6 rows behind Twins dugout while Cuellar outdueled Jim Kaat (I think) in the first American League playoff game when the divisions were split. Don Buford won the game on a HR in the 9th. Great Oriole team outplayed by the Mets (ugh)

There is a very good documentary on that called "Knuckleball!" (2012). I'm pretty sure if you can stream it for free online

The issues with the knuckleball are 1) Most catchers aren't good at catching them because 2) Even the pitcher often has just a general idea of where the ball is going to go. When it works, it's borderline impossible to make solid contact. When it doesn't... well watch Tim Wakefield's games where he gave up a ton of home runs. There were a lot of them.

A knuckleball is actually a fingernail ball. As you throw it all four fingers are gripping the ball with the tips of the fingers...it looks like a shriveled up spider. Your knuckles are pressed into the ball surface but the tips and nails do the work. Then as you release it you flick your fingers in the same motion it takes to flick water at someone. You throw with a fastball motion and upon reaching release point flicking your fingers stops the rotation. This allows air to pass over the seams inconsistently causing the ball to bob and weave erratically.

@@ryanchase9332 This. Tim Wakefield being brought into the bottom half of a tie game in extra innings during game 7 of the 2003 ALCS stands out to me as one of the craziest decisions a manager has made. I'm a Yankees fan. I benefited from it. I still think its a nutball decision. It really is an all or nothing approach. If the movement isn't there, the pitcher may as well be throwing bp.

Try to find video footage of Gaylord Perry. He was a master of the dark arts and the knuckleball .

That's probably just as much to do with doing one thing for however long he played for as a particular pitch.

I think there are just more effective pitches now-a-days. You can get similar movements with change-ups, 2-seams, and even some splitters.

Exactly. Just look at Greg Maddox's circle change. It moved a lot like a screwball, he was pinpoint accurate with it and never had any major arm problems. So why throw a screwball?

@@hoanpham4545 roger clemens 20 k game best screw splutter ever

@@ethanniedorowski116 Check out Shane McClanahan's splitter. He calls it a change up but it's a splitter....

@@hoanpham4545 he prolly learned a split change, they are all over the mlb rn

⁰⁰

My pitching career ended in Little League when my coach wouldn't let me take the mound despite promising me in nearly every practice that he would. His son was a pitcher, and he was pretty good so he was always our starting (and closing since we only played 6 innings, I think?) pitcher in every game. The problem I had was that I was genuinely pretty good, and the coach even took notice which is why he kept telling me he was going to give me a shot "in the next game". The last straw was when it came down to the final two games of the season and our team was already out of contention for the LL tournament, so winning and losing literally didn't matter. Guess who pitched both of those games? The only good part of that memory is watching my Dad (who is one of the most non-confrontational people on the planet) stand up from the bleachers to walk down to the dugout to give the coach a piece of his mind. After he yelled at coach, he asked if I wanted to leave without playing the final game and I said hell yes!

Do you have the velo now?

@@miscellaneousproductions oh heck no, that was my early 20's, that was over 30 years ago. My shoulder had some issues way back then as well.

@@philobeddoe8342 Oh

I had velocity I could throw over 80mph as a Sophmore in HS. Coach every season would always give me a tryout at pitching and I'd throw 3 heaters down the middle of the plate and the 4th pitch about 3 feet over the catchers head. Coach said if I let you pitch your gonna kill somebody. I'm left handed and was forced into centerfield my entire 9 years of playing ball. Except one strange occurance during the allstar game they had too many lefties or something and I played 2nd base for first and only time of my life. That was a rush!

Fastballs and change-ups are fine too if you're not putting every last ounce of strength into it. Guys throwing 82-90 rarely have these problems.Of course only the ones with Maddox like control are successful at that

@@wingracer1614 that was pretty much exactly what and who i was thinking.

@wingracer 16 When you throw in in the 85-92 mph range, you can also get away with problematic mechanics for longer than you would if you threw 95+. If you throw 100 with Verlander's mechanics (not counting either time someone tried to get him away from his long-arm mechanics), you'll be far more durable than if you're throwing 100 with Syndergaard's or Degrom's mechanics. You'll be far more durable throwing 100 with Nolan Ryan's or Randy Johnson's mechanics than you would be throwing 95-98 with Mark Prior's mechanics. It's not just how hard you throw. How you throw hard is a far bigger factor into your injury risk.

I only played a couple of years when I was in middle school and one of our pitchers knew how to throw a slider, it was illegal in my league because of what you mention but we sneaked a couple in two strike counts, it was so fun to get swings and misses, the umpire would tell us that we shouldn't use it lol, fun memories but it probably wasn't a good idea.

It's easy for some and painful for others. Wrist bend and arm angle is the same as the curve, but instead of bending the wrist in towards the body, bend it outward, as if doing an egyptian pose. Snap the ball downward as you would the curve.

Double jointed literally and physically doesnt exist🤣

@@cmlr22 so what would it actually be?

@@frankie9_9 Joint Hypermobility Syndrome

If you keep your wrist relaxed in a neutral position (showing the ball to 3rd base when your arm is up for a rhp), it shouldn't cause pain.

i think the knuckle must be the most difficult grip to master. i bet knuckleball success theory has directives on optimal fingernail length and sharpness... it would make sense... i am not a pitcher but i have a hard time understanding how a mild twist of the elbow and wrist could be all that hard to incorporate into essentially a changeup delivery

A good circle change thrown from a sidearm arm or very low 3/4 arm slot will have the same spin axis of a screwball, because you took a circle change (largely horizontal spin from a vertical arm slot) and rotated it 45-90 so it's now pointed down and away instead of just away.

Sidearm doesn't have the arsenal so nobody will fall for it unless you are playing whiffle ball.

That’s a great detail! Appreciate it!

Figures.

What a screwy family!

And my father known him and this can of pitch hurt your arm,Cuellar never was a power pitcher,for this reason he can extended his career a little bit

@@axelagosto5196 Any pitch can hurt your arm if you throw it wrong. If you follow the "rule" of showing the ball to 2nd, a screwball (as well as a circle change) will hurt. Thrown properly, a screwball is easier on your arm than a curveball or fastball. Keeping the wrist relaxed and neutral (showing to 3rd for RHP and 1st for LHP) is far easier on the arm in general.

and on that note, i have suspected for years that felix hernandez would sometimes use a shuuto/splitfinger grip on his "changeup".... it had so much movement, not unlike devin williams' pitch.

there just enough pitches that already have similar movement such as a 2-seam or a changeup

Proper pitching mechanics are conducive to gaining velocity on principle… so not really sure what you mean by there being a difference between the two

bruh what? r.a. dickey was the last true knuckleballer

@@buckteelios1459 no bruh, he wasnt. He threw his knuckleball 60% of the time. His knuckler was 1 of a 4 pitch repitore. If you grew up watching Charlie Hough, Phil Niekro, and to a lesser degree Tom Candiotti, a true knuckleballer pitches a knuckleball. Not a slider. Not a curve. It's a knuckleball with the possibility of 2 or 3 "fastballs" in the 65-70mph range.

Knuckleballers have a horrible spin rate.

The guy that pitched for Baltimore recently. Was the last one I think.🤔 Mickey I think was his name.

@@buckteelios1459 Wasn't Steven Wright also a knuckleballer, too?

Felix Hernandez' changeup was largely just a backwards slider. It had identical vertical drop as his slider (with 2 inches of the same in every season tracked by Statcast) and the same velocity (within 2mph on every Statcast season) but 2-3x more horizontal movement that went in the opposite direction of his slider's horizontal movement. It worked so well because he had two pitched that looked identical out of the hand and en route to the batter (same velocity and same vertical drop profile) but would end up 15" apart from one another horizontally by the time they reached the plate. His 4-seam and sinker worked well together for the same reason, they were thrown at the same velocity and despite his sinker not actually sinking very much (only 3-5" more drop than his fastball, which would look very similar to batters out of the hand and en route to the plate) it would move 10+ inches more horizontally than the 4 seamer. The secret to great pitchers has always been an arsenal of different pitches that look identical until it's too late for the batter to react. If the velocity and vertical drop are the same, then the horizontal break will be massively different. The trick is pitches that are as similar as possible in 2 out of 3 categories to make them hard for batters to identify/distinguish, but VERY different in the third category to fool batters (whether it be on vertical drop, horizontal movement, or swing timing).

@@Pretzulkj Yes, that is why I wrote 'change-up', The announcers always called it that, but clearly that wasn't what it was. Now, another Mariner pitcher; Mark Langston, there was a change-up.

@@patricksullivan4329 yeah, I totally agree with you. Just was adding details on the specifics of what made his “change-up” different from the norm for others who were reading the comment chain!

I bet if you had gotten some recovery and practiced flexibility, you could have bounced back.

yes they do that's why barely any youth players throw a slider, they throw a curve

yea, submarine is good for you arm, its just difficult to control for lots of people

I initially learned it by accident. I started with a modified 2-seam grip labeled as a sinker in Tom Seaver's book. Figuring out how to throw it without pain was how I learned that the advice to show the ball to 2nd base is complete BS and getting pitchers hurt. I had a lot less arm pain in general once I figured that out.

@@zacheray some pitchers use pronation to create extreme arm side run on their changeups. Devin Williams is the main guy for this but there are others like Eli Morgan, Trevor Richards, Aaron Ashby, etc. I think the fate of the screwball is similar to that of the forkball which also became a bit of a dead pitch after the invention of the splitter

hello

Why is that?

Isn't a palmball basically what Trevor Hoffman used in his devastating changeup?

@@jefffinkbonner9551 yeah that was FILTHY! I think it had a sinking motion too. Nasty.