So it sounds like it’s relatively easy to gain a psychological advantage over Magnus by doing anything you can think of which might give him the impression you potentially have an opportunity to cheat, irrespective of whether or not you’re actually cheating.

"Barely a GM" would be a good name for a tournament. Only GMs under 2600 with a good sense of humor would be invited.

Somehow Hikaru comes out the loser in all this. Pretty, pretty good

For reference, the watch he was using is an analogue watch with a transparent caseback. The tournament regulations are standard for FIDE Level 2 events so electronic devices are banned. A bluetooth connection would require an electronic device so wearing any watch that would allow that would result in a forfeit.

Best take ive heard, people also ignoring Magnus brings these things up occasionally and it just isnt a big story because there wasn’t the additional drama of him losing a game,

I'm just glad FIDE had the good sense to base their ruling on what Ben and Karen said. FIDE also said always play BF1 and KnifeF5 and etc., but mostly etc.

Very suspicious. Magnus played a lot of engine moves.

Tradition to watch Ben's reaction when we're in the midst of some spicy drama!

because rating isn't really a linear scale, going from 2500 to 2800 is not the same as like between 1500-1800. (it gets VERY hard to gain rating when you are 2700+, because the other players are so good, and you start to gain diminishing returns with wins, and losing rating with draws.)

They love playing Rufus and Doofus as long as it's not on their name though. They call it speed running. Some people can have their cake and eat it too.

Magnus was beaten like he was at the receiving end of Levon’s grind.

Nice Karen finding the winning move.

One of the things I'd be interested in is that, since other engines, esp NNs like Leela that think more "creatively" than SF and similar, perhaps "engine moves" will start getting a lot harder to detect... It'd be interesting to see how people will try to combat/detect that

Ben with the best take out there, as usual.

Fun fact: in some dialects of Arabic, the Qatar hero pun works even better because the Q / ق can be pronounced as “g”

Hey Ben, great analysis. I actually thought Magnus would play Bf8 followed by Ne7, but that's because I expected him to go for the pawn break d5. But I'm low-rated so I assume that wouldn't have worked out? What do you think?

If I ever was in a chess tournament, I certainly wouldn't be walking arround with watches and smart phones even if it was allowed. For me it's odd that some people feel comfortable to do that, and it's very natural to feel suspicious of them.

I answered Knight G5 and I’m thrilled about it

In the middle of the hall, with his head hung low Felt a buzz on his wrist, then he knew for sure That one cavalier, felt good in his hand Didn’t take long, to understand Just one little horsey, slung way down low, Was a one way ticket, only one way to go So he started crushing, to the ticking of his watch Gotta keep on crushing, that boy’s gonna take down the dude at the top And be a Qatar Hero, with a knight to g5 He’s a Qatar Hero, highly suspicious, not very nice Yeah a Qatar Hero, Magnus has lost his mind Qatar Hero, thanks to his Seiko, he’ll come alive

23:15 Ben speaks nothing but facts. These Top 20 Super GMs seem way more interested in coming to well documented drawn positions against each other to artificially inflate their ratings than they are in playing against the masses.

If you told me one of the players made moves that were more computer like and slightly suspicious... I would have said it was Magnus. I just don't understand what he was doing.

What we need is a course on how to Grok the kf7 sac. How can we see that's good?

Magnus said it was raining outside

Magnus was 100% correct. Watches should be banned and smart phones should not be allowed in the hall. Whether Magnus won or lost makes no difference. Those should be the rules.

I'm not a competitive chess player and I've never attended a tournament, but if it is generally frowned upon to wear a watch during play, and my chess legend opponent cares enough about it to complain to an arbiter, then I'm just taking it off...but I guess GMs are cut from different cloth

i'd have to imagine he saw h6 Nf7 when he played Ng5. Maybe he was just an attacking sorta player looking for attacking moves and started calculating Ng5 seriously. As you said, it doesn't make sense to just go back to Nf3 after h6.

Incredible game. Legendary crush! The game was analysed by Agamastor and Magnus had no escape whatsoever. Pretty much all possible moves lead to a crushing defeat.

Brilliant game! The dude confidently sacrificed a rook to put the beatdown on Carlsen. Qb3 looks totally natural to me, looking at Qh3. After the rook was sacced he was obviously winning without much material investment, just a free attack. But yeah, Ng5 wouldn't have occurred to me.

One more reason that there is rating inflation together with all the other reasons.

I don't think Ben said it but wasn't the queens Indian defense exposed by alpha zero or one of those computers?

I want to add even more and that is just because in this example Magnus plays badly should not automatically remove suspicion.There is a VERY good possibility that magnus also was under constant engine move pressure that it took him out of his comfort level.I can't see how ANY player if under constant engine move pressure could possibly play at his very best.

Ben, please review the Hans Fabi game

Having a watch can also help you estimate your time remaining when away from the board....

so top players purposefully don't play against lower level GMs because they don't want to lose their ranking? that would mean that they will become more familiar with their opponents since they will always play the same opponents at the top. To me that makes the game less interesting because you can kind of tell what will happen.

Thanks for sharing this video, I think you made your points well and I tend to agree with most of what you said

When I analyzed this game, I was really surprised that this Qb8, Rc8 stuff is okay to play, the position already looks really bad there to my eyes. Stockfish says black is doing okay, but what is even the idea here, what are you playing for?

Magnus, playing a bad opening poorly before losing: "I'm not accusing my opponent of cheating, but he was wearing a watch and I'm a whiner." I lost so much respect for him over the last year. What a tool.

if you cheat as a grand master obviously you don't play the engine move every time. Just some key moves where there is a great improvement for your side.

The point that Kramnik and Fabi and a few others super GMs have mentioned several times is that for a decent player/ cheater it is neither necessary nor advisable to play a computer move every time, only in a very few difficult choice type situations. Fabi mentioned during his broadcast that even one hint during the game can make a 2600 play like 2800,. That the key issue. Once you achieved a decisive advantage it makes no sense to play like a computer and attract attention when a normal "human" move wins. Does it prove that the white cheated here? Of course, not! But it makes analysis by Finegold of the last few moved, the refrain "this is not a computer move" kind of meaningless.

Qb3 was the first move that came to my mind.

Brilliant video and commentary of the elite chess scene

it is actually incorrect to say that Magnus would lose rating points if he scored 9/10, although it is difficult to gain such a score against such a player. With 9/10 he would gain approx 3 points given the current rating difference. With 8.5/10 he would lose points (and that would be a score of plus 7.)

Thank You, Ben. This is the set of takes on this game that I have been waiting for... Magnus was Clearly in bad form and his opponent showed the chess world what ANY Grandmaster is capable of doing when they are given these kinds of positional opportunities. Also, the fact that Magnus does the right thing and periodically plays these open tournaments that are dangerous to his rating was noticed here... and in those situations, Magnus can definitely reach a kind of overwhelm ... and it's at that point where anything could push him over the edge. I wonder how Many FIDE Hard Rules were violated during that game and previous games. I have basically infinite respect for Magnus AND THIS CHANNEL. It just does my Heart Good to see you showing such a deep understanding of where Magnus is coming from. I don't remember being more Happy after seeing a KZfaq video ❤

Great video by Ben, especially the insight about the chess ecosystem in the latter part.

0:05 - strong opening, Mr Finegold...

Is an analogue watch going to be able to tell someone what the best move is?

"Magnus didn't say his opponent cheated"....proceeds to analyze the game to determine if there was cheating.

Excellent vid by the legendary Ben "Min-Fin" Finegold

Thanks god GM Ben isn't doing the cheat detection. Players that always just pick one of the top moves are easily caught. But I think he said that weaker engines may be used to make chess detection harder so he's not wrong all the time. If he was always right, he must be cheating... 🤔

Before yesterday, I never saw a chess player (of any level) TOUCH REPEATEDLY his watch during after and before any single move!...

like "you can put a device in a mechanical watch" sure you could put a device under your shirt or up your butt we're not banning that, it's an article of clothing, feels like anna rudolf and lipstickgate more than anything

It's always hilarious when Ben ambushes Karen with the most random questions. Anyway I agree with everything, and then some.

you could put a device anywhere these days. Especially with this kind of of opponent, nobody is gonna pat down a kid haha

I mean, you can also argue that he started playing human moves after his position was completely crushing already. I'm not saying he cheated, but according to your analysis, he played the not human moves when he needed to, then he started playing more human moves when many moves were winning according to the engine. The guy probably didn't cheat, but Magnus complaints seem reasonable to me. No delay, a watch and people walking around with smarphones, it's more than enough for someone to cheat, if he wants to. The childish thing is that he tweeted about it right after losing

There are smartwatches that look mechanical now. For people who want smartwatch but dont like smartwatch look.

G.M. Ben Finegold commenting on a chess move quoting Shakespeare's MacBeth (act five) is the touch of class you don't expect

White played several nonintuitive moves that were top engine moves, so it seems to me those are somewhat suspicious. That there were also nonengine moves doesn't remove the suspicion of cheating since the cheating strategy for GMs is not to cheat on every move, but only to cheat on a few key moves. However, black played several moves that amount to blunders at a GM level and had more impact on the game.

Guy in the chat saying Qb3 is not an attacking move when it puts pressure on the a2-g8 diagonal and gives the queen access to the f3 and h3 squares is just embarrassing... do people even think about the position before convincing themselves that the player cheated?

Well at least Magnus didn't try to ruin the guy's life with unfounded accusations of cheating like last time

I could imagine that seeing a watch on somebody at that level of chess would be incredibly distracting

27:13 much agreed

e5 is very human, Magnus has a point but he forgets hes still playing a GM. Allthough hes right we need to be more aware of cheating during chess.

If cheating is an issue and the organization isnt enforcing the rules then there is a chance other rules are being broken. Players should be focusing on their games rather than having to worry about other's incompetence

I did see e5 i felt that was resonable

The only black piece that left the black's camp was the queen's knight and it got pinned the next move and captured after that... Carlsen DID play badly

In retrospect, Alisher went on to lose 3 consecutive games after crushing Magnus as of today. Today he lost against an IM!

MIDDLE!

What is the percentage of engine moves that the IM played?

"the watch speaks for itself." ... Ben: "Magnus's opponent played Bb2, that's actually his name, Magnus's Opponent' ... Qb8" >>> Ben is probably the best Seated-Down comedian in the world :)

Electronic devices get ever smaller - a watch band may contain battery, antenna or more, and you can never know by the looks whether a wristwatch or any other device is really purely decorative or mechanic or hides communication devices, a cam, speakers, some signalling device. A Rolex is huge compared to the size of the electronics needed. I am not interested in taking part in the discussion, but just want to point at the theoretical implications of technology. You could not even be sure if the players had to play naked given the present capability and even less the future development. You might put the into a Faraday cage which does not allow any EM signals to pass the walls and even then cheaters would find a way. I remember Jurassic Park movie, when the expert says "life finds a way". I have a simple solution: play chess only in parks and restaurants without the temptation of ratings and prize money.

I made the mistake of drinking water when Ben said "Qatar Hero" and now I need to clean my screen.

Now you know what it's like when a gun has a gun

Magnus is slowly following in the footsteps of old Bobby.

Magnus had some Hans PTSD ⌚⌚⌚

This was NOT a safe space for Magnus ;_;

same as with hans,there also magnus played terrible..magnus thinks he can win any game,but when u play so bad than no

"Mad" Magnus ! Sad to see a great player end in paranoia. First the Neuman saga, now this. Time to call in the shrinks ...

it's so simple, if you don't like the rules, complain before the tournament. If you don't notice before, complain after the tournament. Don't do it exactly after you lost against somebody.

I get accused of being a Magnus fanboy all the time--I'm not, and I *do* think he's most likely paranoid / slowly losing his edge--but the way people argue that it's impossible/too hard to cheat in OTB just mystifies me. Give a professional magician a budget of thousands of dollars and I guarantee they could figure something out. And I guarantee that some GMs are already doing it (just not stupidly / blatantly so they're caught.) Still don't believe me? Look up "thumpers". Or go read about inks that magicians and card cheats use that are almost impossible to see without specially colored/polarized contact lenses (and consider if the same principle could be used with a small, faint laser shining on a predetermined spot on a wall.) Would it be hard work to set up? Sure.... but not nearly as much work as spending 10 hours a day memorizing opening theory. Would it be expensive? Yeah. But it would be easily recouped in prize money. If it's a noisy playing area you don't even need to go that far; you can just do what the Astros did. So even with strict usage of metal detectors, there are still plenty of ways to cheat. But with watches allowed in... that's just dumb, that's just beyond dumb. There are plenty of readymade magician props that look and function just like ordinary mechanical watches. It's so bizarre that so many people are pretending that the idea of OTB cheating is bizarre. I mean have you people even met, erm... humans before?

All watches should be banned, now why on Earth you want to wear a watch to a Chess tournament? It could be modified so I agree with Magus this time.

Ng5 was my first candidate move in that position. Now seeing all the followup after Nxf7 is not possible more of an intuitive tal like sacrafice. For me the most suspicious move was Qb3 but it still makes sense removing your queen from the x-ray. This guy didn't cheat in my opinion Magnus played a bad game.

chess in the old days was better, GM's should play everyone

The kid played well, but not suspicious. Magnus just played badly.

"A Qatar hero" haha somewhere the dry humor judges are satisfied.

If you were going to cheat with a vibrating watch, why not sew some tiny notification device into your shirt or your shoes? I can't see how banning all cheating is possible, all you can do is make the penalties severe and trust most players are honourable.

Completely agree, that kid is a Qatar Hero

Many superGM plays many engine moves in a game. It is easy for them and they are not cheating. Comparing human moves to engine moves is not a good basis for analysis.

Magnus too busy watching Eric Rosen's game?

There is no controversy. Just improper judging leading to false accusations.

Magnus is something like +12 since August 1st, and has gained 3 rating points. The truth hurts.

Hmm magnus should not have told he is worried about the watch, he has revealed his weakness. Now every one of his opponents start wearing watch 🤣🤣

My conclusion: chess is hard

Top GMs playing in closed circuits is called "RATING INBREEDING"

21:41 Lol, he didn't cheat, cos even u found the move 🤣😘😂😗😚

Hika-rage needs therapy.

Magnus wins: Great game Magnus loses: There were cheaters!

That first pun though. He is a Qatar hero because he best Magnus handily. Oooofff

If someone cheats they would cheat 2,3,4 mives not more

Ben calling out Hikaru using Magnus' name for clout, uses it as first word in the title Classic

How convenient the GM took his watch to event, and that the arbitrators said it's ok, even though it's a fide event and completely against the fide rules.