Game Dev here. Huge thank you for playing my game. Excellent ideas too. I've decided to publish my demo early so that your viewers can play it themselves a bit before full release. Thanks for all the interest everyone, it means so much after years of work to finally see people discussing and playing it. Let me know if you have any questions or comments and I'll try to reply tonight.

The nobleman just not even knowing the real value of anything is way more realistic than I was expecting 😂 That "old money" POV

A game like Spice and Wolf where you're a traveling merchant and it goes into medieval economics would actually be really sick, so I'll definitely keep an eye on this one.

The simple answer to splat’s economic question is that the game isn’t working with a reserve Currency in which case it would be worth different for different people. It might help the game’s immersion to say that each town is an independent little kingdom.

I actually like how relations and player skill seems to work here. Your relation with an NPC does not get better because a meter ticks up. It gets better because you understand their drives, desirers and resources. Like understanding that a certain farmer is a rube who will sell bulk staples for little cash, or that nobles will throw money on every problem they face. Some folks will buy illegal stuff. It looks like you can have a littl dialogue with people and see what they want. Character skill does not tick up either. The player's skill in understanding the value of goods, the rules for different markets and where to offload stuff matters. Like learning that the armed forces of one city apparently requires troops to outfit themselves with spears as their kit, so soldiers will always buy spears. Players advance by expanding their resources. A larger caravan with more pack animals and more crates, with a larger and more varied inventory floating around. Maybe hiring employees would be nice too. I like that there isn't any skill tree, anything you want to do in the game you can do as a starting chump merchant. A ledger or something to keep track of information is pretty vital in games like these, and all sorts of mangement games. But partly, this game seems to be about fuzzy numbers. What an item is worth to different people will change.

It would be cool if this game allowed you to get a better idea of item prices the more you traded in them. So when you first trade for let's say Corn, the popup would say "You have no idea what it's worth" and once you've traded in corn a bunch of times it would say "You are confident this is a good trade" or something along those lines. To help emulate the feeling of a merchant understanding the world more.

The ledger is a must have I think. I also would stand by the currency- 1 silver being 1 silver should be a thing. If we really want to mess around with varying value on coinage, different mints could exist. So you could have a Kings Silver and a Miner Silver, which don't match perfectly- close enough for most of the time, but you could try to make money by moving coinage around. That is a thing. But overall, this is real cool looking.

The perfect game to use the "notes" in the steam overlay

"What is a money?" is a really funky question in historical economy. Money can be a commodity. It is worth what the metal in it is worth. Then it runs into other stuff, like what to do when you physically run out of money.

This was quite fun to watch, and your input in the end was really valid. I’d really love to see you do a short series of this game, even if it’s like 3 episodes long.

I think a feature this game is missing is a Merchant guild system. During the time period this game is reflecting, it was near impossible to do business without being approved by the local guild. Of course there were always people who didn’t care, but having some characters much more reluctant to trade with you/giving you a terrible price until you get accepted or given a permit by the local guild would do a lot for immersion. It would also give you a nice sense of progression as your upward progress could be seen in your permits and how more locals are willing to fairly deal with you. Guild fees would also give you soft deadlines that you feel pressured to pay giving players a sense of urgency this game is lacking at the moment. Right now, I don’t see what the end goal of this game is.

Haggling, or rather differently valuing coins is absolutely a thing, although it was usually across currencies. Sweden for example was infamous at some points for debasing their currency. Likewise it depends on the currencies base, since gold, silver, and copper all vary in value as raw materials, coins also varied in value to each other based on their raw material cost. For coinage systems where the government held them to be in fixed values to each other this occasionally led to merchants doing a brisk business buying the overvalued (for example silver) coins and then trading them for the undervalued gold coins essentially just moving from one bank counter to another and making a profit.

At the top of the screen, the game tells you what each NPC's job is, so you don't have to try to remember. It will say "Mary the Baker" or "Collin the Thief." I had a couple of thoughts: 1) As you acquire great wealth, you could build a house somewhere on the map, and expand it into palace and a grand estate. 2) If you try to buy something really cheap, the character could say something melodramatic, like "Think of my children!" or "You're taking food out of my mouth!"

Do you understand how HAPPY I am to hear someone else loved Vagrus. It is insanely difficult with the encounters you can have but it is so much fun! btw the combat is insanely difficult at times.

Splat your upload timing is perfect. Every time I think "O shit I wonder what's new on YT?" and it's you.

value of currency is subjective. 1 dollar has different value to different people, just like some people think 100 dollars is a lot, and others think it isn't. the individual subjective value of a unit of currency doesn't necessarily mean a deal cannot be struck, you just need to find something that is valued more by one party than the other, that way both will benefit from trade. subjective value is the entire reason trade exists, and possibly could not exist without it! there, i just saved you 3 years a 300,000 USD, but i will settle for half... XD

I love games that put us in the role of some historic professions from before modern history. Games where you are a smith, pirate, viking, mercenary, etc. to show what those lifestyles are like. And considering how much trade has driven world history, I agree with Splat that there needs to be merchant games! Whether that be exploring the Silk Road or the Amber Road, going all maritime and seeing the world like Marco Polo, we need more games that showcase these historic professions for lack of a better word.

Vagrus seems to be a fine merchant game in a fantasy setting.

Here's the thing... Everything is currency! It's not just the precious metal coins. The celery, the arrows, the BAGS! All currency. Some people want what you have. Some don't. The white dress wasn't a "bad trade". He was loaning you something of value just so that you'd give it back on the next trade! You, my friend, are a Noble!

Fascinating watch! I'd love to see you play more of it!

I was working on a pretty good merchant game a couple of years back. Unfortunately I went (mostly) blind and couldn't continue development. If any indie devs out there want to take a crack at developing my concept, let me know. It was an RPG/Economic Sim/Travelling Merchant game, where you hire staff, send them out to prospect for raw materials, then set up mines, then haul them back to town(s), research how to develop raw resources into finished goods, manufacture them, and then sell those goods. Then of course, if the market became saturated with your miracle gadget, you had to travel around the map finding other towns where you could get the best prices for them. You also had to buy and sell raw materials that other NPCs had discovered and mined so your factories had enough materials for production. That sounds like the kind of thing Splat would love.

That intro screen.... looks like the merchant is breaking wind repeatedly 😂

Would be funny if celery ends up being like super important later on, kinda like that classic the default sword is actually a legendary weapon. ^^

This one does look like it has some promise; will keep an eye on it and see how it develops. I absolutely agree with you that good trader games are far and few between; even in games where being a merchant is an optional playstyle in them, it usually seems to fall flat and be of the least consequence. For example, take one of my favorite indie games - Kenshi. You can be anything you want to be and do anything you want to do. There is even an official United Cities Trader start. But playing as a travelling merchant seems to offer the least, and hardest earned rewards and really does not have much in the way of consequences for the world. Battles are never won or lost based on the supplies you were able to procure one side or the other (or both). No UC city ever falls because the guards were too high on your smuggled hashish to mount a solid defense, nor do weapons, armor or food play much of a factor in strengthening them. It would be good to see more games where nations may rise or fall by your trading action. One place may avert disaster because of the medicine you brought them, or they might perish because you had a monopoly on some key ingredient to said medicine and simply refused to let them have it because they habitually got in the way of great trade deals. Of course not every deal needs to have great and dire consequences, especially early on, but it would be great to have a trading game where it feels like the supply lines you create make a difference to the world around you. As your skill and wealth grows, so too does your ability to influence things around you.

I'm just imagining Splatt IRL trying to cajole someone into a trade by offering increasing amounts of celery sticks he just happens to have on hand haha.

I thought about doing a merchant/trading game in 1998. The Winter Olympics in Nagano were taking place. I remember it well! I gave up on the idea, though, because I could not think of a way to simulate human decision-making with regard to economic matters. The human mind considers a heck of a lot of variables when making economic decisions--and these variables change, even within the same person. One challenge that I wanted to tackle was simulating the Great Depression. What if the government had done this rather than that? How would it have changed the outcome? Economists have identified only a few of the aspects of economic thinking. Maybe I should revive my economics simulation.

Customer: I got this diamond encrusted Dragon greatsword of Lightning. Splat: Best I can do is 4 celery.

I'm with you bro. I LOVE merchant games. I had an idea for a mercenary/merchant game. You start as a merc who hires himself to travelling merchants. Eventually merc turns merchant and builds a huge merchant empire with routes, stand, even shipping lanes. It would have some combat as well either auto-resolve or manual participation.

At a certain point we just all need to band together and get splat a wagon and a strong ox and let him live open word caravan simulation in peace.

I also love merchant games. Please keep bringing attention to them.

I love the long format.

An easy way to track values could be showing a range of what you buy/sold that item for. like: sword: value: 9-12 copper 9 being the lowest trade you made, 12 being the highest. Also, yes, define a static value for gold vs silver vs copper. and gems are haggled.

Well, this is certainly an under-served market segment, no pun intended. Will be interesting to see how it builds from this rare but bare beginning.

This looks like a good start to a solid game. Agreed on your points you laid out at the end of your video.

thanks for your video! i am now really want this game! For your question there is two reason why 1 silver coin is not equal to 10 copper: First is just speculation. Coins in medieval time was not just money, they worth equal of metal in them. So differnt proportions of metal, different value. Second is just there different currencies, like silver is from kingdom A and copper from kingdom B, or different currencies in one kingdom. It s like dollar equal about 140 japanesse yen or 7 chinesse yuan, so it not suprising that everyone has different currency exchange rate

"If I remember correctly, this lady is a baker." Name: Mary the Baker.

Coin conversion seems to be fixed at 1 Gold = 10 Silver, 1 Silver = 6 Copper from what I gathered playing a few hours except to coin collectors who will tell you which coins they value more

It'd be great if there was an interaction log that showed what other people wanted/were selling, how much something sold for/was bought for. Also a "haggle meter" that was unique for each character, where you can only give so many offers before they refuse. Still, it seems like a pretty sweet game.

Some good observations, i'd also like to see a few more merchant style games here and there.

never been this early :) always pleasant seeing your videos!

I do love me some good merchant games, has been years that I've searched for games like caravaneer, but nothing alike. Hope this can become really good :3

Caravaneer 2 is a great classic trader game, in post-apocalyptic setting. There is also another one roughly inspired by it called Dust to the End.

Haha! I love merchant games. I especially love scenic merchant games. Games where you can just kick back and enjoy purchasing low and then traveling where you need to go.

You should play the very old High Seas Trader game. You'll need to fiddle around with a Dosbox to get it working well but I'm sure you'd love it.

Random events makes sandbox games less static. It's like in management games, the player seeks to create a perfect equilibrium and unless the world pushes back the players will do so. It could be tax, employee costs, feeding the animals, wear on your goods. Events that change the market dramatically, like a border skirmish or drought or a new mine opening.

Privateer 2 was a highlight in the space merchant games arena.

It would be cool if you had a merchant game just like this,but everytime you travel you have a chance of getting raided and have to hire bodyguards. Maybe you can even pay the bodyguards in armor and weapons. Even better (but i know hard because its kind of asking for two games in one) is if you hire unique bodyguards and then when you get attacked you control them in a tactical gameplay. And if you loose the battle the bodyguards die and then you as the merchant, has to grab what items you can carry on your person and run away. That can be death punishment, you loose the caravan but keep what you carry and maybe you loose reputation on the group the bodyguards belonged to, or if you had assassins taking you then there could be a chance that even though you lost, the assassin lived and now hunts you down unless you pay a crazy amount, or a soecial item they want

Cool art, nice game. Having some sort of "quests/requests" may add dept.

Finally! An open world fantasy trading medieval rpg 🎉

This seems like a real solid Beta. Probably 75% of the way there. Obviously the Ledger is imperative. More characters, a bulk sort of character that would be regional. Market factors in each town. Rumors and Leads for opportunities. And basically, as Splatt said, just more depth. Great foundation. And I am also fully aware that a single man team has a limited amount of time to be able ti implement so many things. To whit, Kickstarter!!

I'm sure you've played this before but... Star Traders Frontiers might be able to scratch your merchant game itch if you play the right class (it's an RPG). It's a great game!

So that is a weird situation. Having people disagree about the spending power of a currency is normal, but about denominations is weird. Like one person saying that bread costs a dollar, and someone else saying it's a dollar and a half, that is something that happens as the purchasing power fluctuates. But what you described is like one person saying that a dollar is worth 4 quarters, and someone else saying that a dollar is worth 3 quarters or five- that doesn't really happen with our currency. Even as inflation hits and a dollar loses value, it's value relative to quarters, dimes, etc stays the same.

Have you ever played Mount and Blade as a pure economic trading game? There are a number of mods that really allow you to explore the merchant system in that game.

The only way our currency could be switching values like that, is if the currency is made of some sort of resource, like gold or silver, and between regions gold and silver is more or less harder to acquire.

The new steam overlay let's you save notes to the cloud and pin them on your screen with transparency as well if that is helpful for anyone.

Fiat money doesn't generally have that problem, when you're staying within that singular fiat currency (like cents to dollars). But the difference in face value can happen. They tend to be very edge cases in modern economies, but they can happen particularly in the less developed areas of the world. If your meal costs 1 dollar, and you have 100 one-dollar bills, they are in a useful form. But if some foreigner came in and said he wanted to trade his 100-dollar bill for your 100 one-dollar bills... well, now you're dependent upon the local meal dealer to be able to give you change when you need to eat. Indeed, the fact that he doesn't is possibly precisely why they want to trade their 100-dollar bill. So regardless of the face value, you can't get anything that you reasonably could want from the bill, so the actual value you have for it is less than the face value. But if you go between currencies (forex), then it's basically supply and demand, and face value says very little about what currency x is worth in currency z. (And fixed exchange rates can be enforced by centralized government... up until they run out of the currency reserves. Then everyone realizes that their currency is worth nowhere near as much as the foreign currency that the government ran out of. Then the economy goes into a tail spin.) Similarly, for non-fiat currencies, like copper and silver. While generally worth less than the face value (otherwise people would simply melt it down for the more valuable material).... well, in the parentheses, I did say what is the fallback plan for if the currency drops in value. It basically sets a floor on the value, and limits inflation, because it is principally useful regardless. But that does not set it's market-price / face value.

The map looks very nice(super important in games I think), but hopefully they can expand the known world cause it seems pretty small. I also low key like the art design, and the shop mechanic somewhat reminds me of an older game called Reccetear(?)

7:30 you can use the new steam overlay note feature it can be displayed over the game with high transparency

Caravaneer 2 is a great example of a good merchant game, you should check it out if you get the chance!

10:00 In my admittedly limited experience, economics is one of those few fields where the more I learn about it, the less I understand it.

Merchant games guild 1 through 3 patrician but that is ancient now, Recettear but that is an RPG and yeah merchant games are indeed rare!

Matt, how about a 5 hour stream of you playing this game, no commentary, only "hmm", "huh!" and "oooh!". Maybe some mumbling. That would 100% be a hit on Twitch!

At the beginning of the video you have described Star Traders Frontiers, though it is in space.

9:05 This has been a complicated issue. Basically all trading has always been based on human emotion and desire more than anything measurable (everything humans do is from desire, even basic survival. Sorry, Buddha.). An economy is only stable when a sufficient number of people share the same fantasies about the relative value of most items. Paper currency developed as a substitution for trading tons of metal for high value items as well as fractions of high value metal for low value, low demand items, and eventually became a commodity unto itself as the shared fantasy became endemic and reinforced by the inertia of large, highly active economies with difficult to counterfeit currency. But as we see worldwide, despite the efforts to apply rules and math to it, all commodities and all currency only have value due to an aggregation of human emotions. 38:25 Even the king's rules didn't always stabilize the relative worth of coinage back in the day. Nowadays, banks can charge a fee for exchanging large amounts of coinage for notes and vice versa. Don't get me started on the Coinstar machines in supermarkets...

I would argue that Sea Dogs is a pretty excellent merchant game if you like buying low and selling high!

Been waiting for a traveling merchant\RPG fantasy hybrid for ages. T_T I remember playing one back in the 90's but can't remember its name. With multiple skill trees. Adventurer, Logistics, Mercantile skills Guess I'll go play Port Royal again.

Only game I can think of that is similar to this is Merchants of Kaidan. Was released in 2013, and its okay, but you had to keep so many notes in order to keep records of prices. There were just so many places to visit, and prices fluctuated dramatically

Lol every time he's like "This character is like a" and I just want to scream, "It's in their name above their head!" Lol

recettear needs a sequel and a few rivals badly

There's the old caravaneer games,you're a merchant wondering the wasteland after the world ended that's closest I can think of in terms of merchant games

Comparing copper to silver is more like, comparing dollars to pennies, than dollars to dollars, it's basically like some might rather want one silver coin than many copper coins, like if you are rich would rather want your money in pennies or dollars?

I love this game!

idk why i found it so funny, seeing those ladies getting ripped off and hustled on for pastries lmao

An honest and interesting take on an underestimated genre

A few merchant games for MrSplat xD (more like a shop owner) * Moonlighter * Recettear

It's already a point and click many times Indie game, and 1 developer but what all you said to be in the game sounds awesome.

Personally id like the posibility of buying a house and furnishing it with all the stuff you get.

@Splattercatgaming - It's an oldie, but Patrician IV sounds like the merchant game you're describing. Keep in mind, even as the IV in the franchise it was released in 2010, so mileage may vary, but give it a look if you haven't before.

ooo a coin exchange might be a good add as well.

Love this chanel man

4:29 You weren't around in the good ol' days of PC gaming where you had to keep a notebook handy? Wasn't it Ultima where the developer was vehemently against such things and the games wouldn't give reminders about what door an npc said a key would open or what the details of a quest were? Had to jot it down. As far as trading, in World of Warcraft, since my schedule didn't allow raiding, I mostly played the auction house. Even with various mods that helped track things, I still kept pen and paper nearby for things mods couldn't track, such as deals I'd made with the different farmers.

caravaneer 2 is like the best merchant game ever, and it was a browser game. i think there may be ways to play it again as flash emulators have proliferated. maybe its on steam now too? you NEED to cover it.

What if there was a game where the player plays a vital role in the quasi-legal area of getting supplies to where they're being demanded and your actions mattered because those supplies to NPC factions could make them flourish or whither based on your choices. We could call it, "Lord of War"

Basic economics by Thomas Sowell is a great book if you want to understand economics more.

There's been a couple trading games over the years, Chocolatier was pretty good

laugh out loud. when i started the video and you said no merchant games, my mind went to a game a while back called book of travels and i was like okay i will recommend a game i loved but i forgot the name, i search youtube merchant and pops up book of travels yes that's it great... and then i see it was you who played reviewed and told me about it lol!

About your philosophical question - you seem to forget that merchants trade to make a profit. It's not that they don't agree on the value of your silver. But why would they give you 10 copper for your 1 silver? That's a transaction that really makes no sense to them since neither of you gains anything from it. Ergo they "buy" your 1 silver for 7 copper. BAM, profit!

yes no digital ramifications are always a big plus THANK YOU Splattercat for another great day in paradise

I love the shit u just talked in this intro. I don't watch the live but I rely on u in the old games like rdr2. I do watch the daily stuff too. Take care bro.

While I like the general idea of this, I think the total lack of any danger moving between cities is immersion breaking for me. I this time period and setting you wouldn't be able to step foot outside of a town without an armed guard. Especially with the number of pirates and thieves you were dealing with. There needs to be a cost in food, protection, and time moving between cities. Otherwise it just feels very dry and like a stock trading game.

Tradewinds Legends, my guy. If someone could make that in the modern era...

Who Knew that Celery was a viable currency

If you use final offer they will usually accept the on the fence deals

>Mary the Baker "This lady, if I remember correctly... is a baker." Never change, Splat. Never change. Also did you ever mention Morrowind? Great barter system there (after modding out the bugs)

I see the appeal of trader games. Totally on board with pushing for this genre. Hoorah for tradwr games, lets go!!!!!

Speaking of merchant style games, what are you thoughts on the game Recettear? Its one of my favorites in the genre. Its older, but I still pull it out now and then to play through.

There was a sailing/pirate game that I remember having really good trading. Sailing and unlocking new ports that had and wanted different Items etc and I remember hours figuring out and writing down the best trade routes. Port Royale or something?

Hearing about trading games reminded me of an old 90s text game in which you were a drug dealer and went around the city buying and selling all kind of drugs. It was really simple fun and addicting. Pun intended. 😂

9:59 that actually sounds about right for the era depicted in the game. Sure, it's annoying to us nowadays, especially in the USA, because we're so spoiled that a dollar is a dollar (despite the fact that the dollar is on the brink of collapse for the last 50 years).

I felt like moonlighter did a good job at teaching you prices based on customer feedback.