LazyBookworm I cannot agree with this more

I thought of him immediately lmao

That one works because it’s more of a comedic deconstruction of the classic villain tropes.

Oh my god s a m e

I so agree

Zuko's redemption arc is the redemption arc that I will forever judge all redemption arcs against, and I love that.

Zuko is a masterclass in redemption. As in I've seen actual KZfaq lectures on him.

Zuko is my all time favorite villain I challenge anyone to top that

That and Ventress's redemption

Personally I have seen better. I am in the generation that seen show take it has an inspiration to do better and succeed. And also because personally I wasn't that into it. When I watch it, it was awesome seriously. But having everyone telling you how good it is and how much it so mature. I have kind of lost it. Fandom are great to an extent. I am sure I have done the same when I was newly fan of Gravity Falls.

Have a villain give a monologue about a fake plan The hero now just spent 2 hours wasting time on a non existent virus, while the villain has already moved onto to the next stage or even outright won

DIO!

@@MegaQuinners I immediately thought of Dio😂

The "You Fool!" Slaps 😂

Villain: "You fool, little did you know but you were a fool because you were a fool. How do I know you are a fool? I'm glad you asked. I knew because of your foolish acts that can only be described as the acts of a fool!"

I couldn't agree more!

One of the greatest classic Disney villains is Lady Tremaine from Cinderella, for many of the same reasons.

Gothel and Frollo are probably the most disturbing disney villains because they're so grounded in reality We all know manipulative people or people who use their status to be assholes

Yes! Thank you!

I strongly agree!

Not death, but this idea immediately makes me think of Watchman. "I'm not some cartoon villain, I did this all half an hour ago"

Spiderverse?

SAW did it. And that's what made the first two films so amazing

Deadly K I have one in my book as well. Except that she doesn’t die. She just doesn’t escape during that (not so cheesy) monologue

"I did it 35 minutes ago"

I like that. Could be a great prolog haha. You're following a character you think will be the MC but they get killed and the actual MC is one of their friends/family/fan, etc

@@thearisen7301 holy crap i love this. i'm still new to the false protagonists trope but yes i love it

I would read the heck out of that.

Isn’t that the famous scene from hamlet where the villainous protagonist is monologuing to the skull of his rival.

Friend is now Protagonist 2.0

Also when the hero drops his guard, the villain suddenly reaches for a gun so the hero would kill the villain in self defense and that would avoid hate mail from angry parents.

THIS - also when they act all virtuous and stuff just to prove they’re the good guy and the whole ‘I’ll be as bad as them’ trope

Cough cough Fuckin moon knight

Yeah like we built the whole story up for this moment and now you decide you can’t do it

@@One.Zero.One101 true, and even worse is the "Greedo shot first" retcon.

Which book, if I may ask?

@@plexi9043 Watchmen comics

And it is explained why he actually monolouges. Ozy is a narcissist, and truly enjons monolouging and explaining how (in his own twisted mind) he has saved the world. He enjoys feeding his ego.

A good trick is to have variation if you're writing different variations.

Agreed. They still should have some kind of layers, "eeeeviiiillll" can't just be their only trait, but they still don't always have to have an understandable goal. They can just be a screwed up person sometimes.

Even more to the point, this whole question of 'layered villains' vs simplistic ones is itself much more layered than most people realize. On the one hand, you have Thanos who is appreciated because he has actual reasons behind his plots, but on the other hand you have Sauron, who exists really only to dominate others and destroy the works of the Elves. In a similar fashion, Voldemort may one have been Tom Riddle, but by the time he gets to being the villain in Harry Potter he's an irredeemable Black Hat who wants to take over the world mainly because he can. The real factors in play are HOW is this villain used. Voldemort and Sauron both spend much of their time 'off-screen', and Sauron in fact never makes an appearance in The Lord of the Rings. He exists as as a villainous backdrop, instead, and the true villain of the story is the Ring itself, since the Ring is the adversary against which the protagonist (Frodo) is actually fighting. But, let's remember that Ring is still relatively one-dimensional in its desire and ability to corrupt the wearer and turn him into a servant or facsimile of Sauron. None of the other villains in the tale, from the orcs, to the Balrog, to the Nazgul are actually anything other than Evil, with only Saruman laying claim to more layers than this, but mostly owing to his backstory. By the time of the War of the Ring, Saruman wants to rule Middle-earth, just because he (thinks he) can, just like Sauron. And yet, despite this one-dimensional villainy, and despite the lack of truly layered villainy, The Lord of the Rings is still one of the most satisfying protagonist journeys in the entire field of storytelling. What we get, rather than seeing nuanced layers of villainy, is seeing many different _shades_ of that one-dimensional villainy. Consider the orcs, again. We get to follow and meet the orcs personally on multiple occasions, through the observations of the Hobbits. The Isengarders are about as much Burn-Hack-Kill as one can get, and yet the chapter we spend in their company is compelling precisely because of how much it is terrifying to the protagonists. The banter of the orcs at Cirith Ungol reveals how vile and despicable they are, which is precisely why you feel so creeped out and disgusted by them, but also fearful for the protagonist. That fear is on hyperdrive when the Hobbits encounter the Nazgul themselves, with no need for nuance or complicated motivations on the part of the villains. The very 'simplicity' of this arrangement does not detract from the reader's experience; rather, that experience is heightened because the danger the protagonists are in is the real inspiration for your emotions. The directness, the implacable nature of the evil, with no hope of appealing to reason or ulterior motive, is the very thing which laces the events with true peril. Now, with all that said, I don't mean to imply that nuanced villains are inferior. Far from it, depending upon the setting. Many genres and styles require such layered villains in order to make them compelling, but usually these are the ones wherein the reader actually gets to spend time not just with the villain, but AS the villain. Increasingly, we have come to treat villains as someone to relate to in some way, because that allows us to step into their shoes and see where they are coming from. It's become a powerful tool of storytelling, especially if the message of the story requires such nuance to be potent. Comic books (and their movies) are clear examples of this, but, even within that world of storytelling, usually the most epic, the most memorable, and the most compelling villains of all are the ones who represent a dire threat to everything the protagonists hold dear, with little motivation for this threat beyond: "Because I can", or simply to demonstrate their superiority. For examples of this I would cite Apocalypse, Darkseid, Doomsday, etc., and even the original Thanos in the Infinity Gauntlet storyline painted him as an implacable servant of Death, who was trying to murder half the universe to impress her. There's no cheapness to these examples. They're not 'poorly written', as one might suggest following this idea that villains require nuance. Instead, they are exceptionally WELL written, because on some level they all tap into that great fear within all of us of a foe we cannot reason with, or even beg for mercy. Even without the compelling nuance of, say, a Machiavellian schemer who thinks he is saving the world in his own way, these villains manage to remain more memorable and powerful in the imagination. Just sayin'. I do understand the modern appetite for villains to make sense as people too, but I truly think that in many cases, the comparatively simpler motivations of a Black Hat tyrant serve greater and more fundamental purposes. To me, it all depends on how you make them impact the protagonist.

​@@Lodatzor I wouldn't say Saruman wants to rule because he can, it is a drift into evilness. Saruman's desire is to get power to destroy Sauron. At first he gets into contact with Sauron to betray him, but he gets corrupted by him. In the end he still believes he is ultimately superior to Sauron, but has forgotten what goal his struggle previously had and therefore becomes Sauron's puppet, weakening middle-earth instead of strengthening it. Otherwise I agree with you. A villain has to fit the story and its themes, not necessarily "realism".

@@JoniWan77 I agree with you too, my point was just that despite the backstory we can learn about Saruman from Tolkien's other writings (and again I agree with your summation), by the time of and within the story of LotR itself Saruman's motivation had already become one-dimensional.

I loved the arc for Vader! It was the only good thing about the prequels. 😂

But he also had that stupid inappropiate redemtion.

@@skullfullofbooks7398, so you liked the prequels because that is basically the whole prequel trilogy

like that scene in spider man homecoming where Vulture is literally monologuing to buy time for his suit to come online.

similar to watchmen ending! the only time i've seen the villain monologue done right

@@vastava Yeah except he monologues because it's already happened by the time the heroes got there. It was literally too late for them to do anything about it

"and then after that I will..." "You will what?" "You know I'll um...god I should've taken that improv class in college." "What?"

That could be turned into a really funny situation. Just a villain spouting bs and barely knowing what they are saying. I would honestly love to read that.

A classic

I actually like villains who are just evil. Psychopaths. Hannibal, Joker, etc

Even in the case of Hannibal, the people he chooses to eat are typically people he sees as problems with the world, like the orchestra player who was off key, or the patient of his who he knew couldn't be helped, etc. He never really goes after good honest people, just people he thinks the world would be better off without. For Lector, his appetite is a form of twisted justice.

Lookin at you Rashek

@@MetalCharlo my first thought was Rashek too

tigerlily I'm currently writing a story about a magical society where a new magic type is started (witchcraft) and it starts to spread by a dark witch named Viran who was originally just an average mage. Viran is actually partially under control by a demon and still doesn't do that dark of things but the story is written from the perspective of the friends of the chosen one who must stop the darkness. The way it is framed makes Viran look like the worst person ever but realistically he's just instituting change into a rigid society. It's more meant to comment on our society in a way, but I like fantasy so it's about magic.

Lol possibly Kelsier

Magneto. Given human nature he's probably right that peace with humanity is impossible

the variation in character that ATLA has is really good. obviously some improvement could be made but that goes for all art. its just nice to see the care put into creating diverse and interesting characters

I think the better villain who doesn't need any redemption is Azula.

The Fire Lord actually believed in sharing the greatness of the fire nation with the rest of the world. The real evil was Azula

@@natedavis1125 I disagree. Azula is actually a really complex and interesting character. I wouldn't say she's a good person but she's not pure evil. She was one of Ozai's main abuse victims. Her father basically conditioned her to not show fear and emotion. He taught her that only strength and power mattered. She would do anything to please her father. She forgot about her sense of empathy just to be Ozai's perfect weapon. She became almost perfect at fire bending just for him. Everything bad that she did was for him. But Ozai probably never loved her. He just favored her because he knew he could manipulate her at an early age and also because of her talents. Since Zuko wasn't as talented as her, Ozai pushed him to the side. Ursa loved and cared for him more. Zuko would've turned out just like Azula if he didn't have her and Iroh. Azula had absolutely no one. She thought that her mother only loved Zuko. She was jealous of him because she wanted Ursa's love too. She turned to her father and tried to get his love and affection instead. Ozai probably knew that and tried to use it to his advantage. But he was never there for her when she needed him the most. She was also terrified of him. When Zuko disagreed with Ozai, he got banished. She learned to never disrespect him, because she was told that whoever went against Ozai's power deserved to be hurt. People also forget that Azula was a literal child. She was only 14 and deserved more time to learn from her mistakes. Iroh is often idolized and considered the best character but he has also made some terrible mistakes. He was one of the fire nation's most famous war generals. He didn't change into a better person until his son died. Iroh was decades old at that time. So why did he deserve a second chance, but not Azula? Zuko had also done some bad things. He even burned a village down along with other things. But Zuko got a redemption arc too. It's extremely ignorant and stupid to say that Ozai, an abuser and horrific dictator, is morally better than his victims.

@@natedavis1125 Firelord Sozin believed, there is no evidence that Firelord Ozai believed he was great and did not just want to rule the world.

I come from the future and I couldnt agree more. Everyone kept saying "Evil for the sake of Evil" was bad and now were seeing the flip side of that. Damn near every villain now is a redeemable tragic backstory type story and it was fine at first but its become played out. Bring back irredeemable pure evil villains like Sauron, Emperor palpatine, Pennywise, Lord Voldemort etc. Sometimes a "man who just wants to watch the world burn" story is interesting

I read this is a Malfoy voice for some reason

@@turkishundelightful5382 did I just wheeze, sneeze or relate?

I agree, and to add: the antagonist needs a background that relates to their "evil" traits, so that we can see where the influence comes from. Otherwise it'll probably just be one of the poorly written ones.

Yeah, I think evil for the sake of evil is totally legit for certain types of villains. Serial killers for instance. Many have horrible backgrounds of abuse, but some don't. They just want to kill people.

@@mzachary99 antagonist =/= villain. An antagonist only opposes the protagonist. A villain is objectively evil. You can even have a villain protagonist and an antagonist to oppose him. Best example Light and L from Death Note. Light killing people from his Übermensch God complex and playing cat and mouse with the police, spiraling into a supernatural murder spree and the intellectual and collected, quirky Antagonist with his merry group of diverse characters from the police trying to stop him. It's just a different angle.

@@illiengalene2285 yes, I meant the traits that would make him oppose the protagonist. Thats why I put quotes around "evil".

Erin Ross agree those with a clean background make their action all the more terrifying

Incredibles?

"You sly dog! You got me monologuing!"

That was my first thought when she read the "villain monologue" comment.

i've seen the movie enough times to hear the voice just as i was reading this

I was thinking the exact same thing. Lol

Agreed. I'm tired of people thinking every villian needs to be relatable in some shape or form

It reminded me of Lavana from the Lunar Chronicles, because she is straight up bad. Marissa Meyer handled that well. Knowing her back story though as you come to uncover you feel empathy for her, but her decisions are still straight evil always.

Honestly, I’m just so happy both OSP and I’m the Grim Reaper came up in this comment, I love them both so much

Bill Cipher from Gravity Falls is a great example of a "pure evil" villain done wonderfully. He is hilarious and a huge, looming threat throughout the show. I can't even explain it well without writing an essay, he's just so good. One of my favorites.

I agree with you a d OSP, Maleficent was always may favorite villian. Also isn't true villiany evil? Doesn't complex reasoning just make an antagonist?

Zuko is why I keep rewatching the few every couple of years. I wouldn't come back for Aang.

@@Yora21 I would come back for Aang, because he came back for the world 💝

@@cosmicdankhead9171 If you were in the show I would come back for you, because you have my boy Aang's back 👌💝✨

Oh, yeah. "If somebody got the ball from one goal to the other, everyone would yell, "REDEMPTION!" Best game ever made.

Exactly

yeah Alan Moore references!!!!

He’s in my top 5 villains. Just amazing. I actually almost understand him

@@charlieadams2143 Well most people do, that's why everyone loves him as a villain. Characters can definitely just be sick and twisted individuals, and that's definitely not boring when done well (Purple Man, Joker, Scarecrow etc.).

Chaos is his motivation. Also, his complexity lies in that he's the opposite to the protagonist. Where Batman finds solace in order and justice, Joker revels in chaos and corruption. That in and of itself is interesting.

Who doesn’t love the Joker in The Dark Knight?

It gives off megamind vibes

Dr. D from Phineas and Ferb! "He's my nemesis, I have to tell him everything!"

I'd love to write a book where in the middle of the book they have the big battle and the villian just start monologing about their plan then the hero gets saved and try to stop the viilian just to learn that said villian was lying about their plan and they completed a long time ago they were just bored and wanted to have some fun so they did all stereotipical villian stuff so the hero can come and save the world and all of that just for fun for the villian...

Leti L Yes. How much better it would have been if Harry ‘tried’ to warn Voldemort but instead of what we got, the casting of spells happens and Harry is the victor - then, after the celebration as the trio walk to the Headmaster’s office, Hermione asks Harry why and he explains how he had won the wand’s allegiance etc. (Harry figured out something Hermione didn’t, and not revealing all about the powerful wand to every single person present at the Battle of Hogwarts) (On side note, we shouldn’t have got Cursed Child as a sequel, we could have had someone trying to kill Harry for the Elder Wand)

I disagree with this one, mostly because there was a whole side plot that involved getting to know Voldemort, and coming to understand the impressive depths of his ego. I honestly would have been more surprised if he didn’t monologue at the end of books 2, 4, and 7.

@@CharMesan Holy crap I would absolutely have read *that* sequel! The Cursed Child is a disgrace to the Wizarding World. I didn't even think about how Harry and Voldemort were having their discord in front of the entire audience of the students and the remaining death eaters... Wow. Lol. Mind = blown.

I can touch you now.... *AAAAAH! AAHAAAHAHAHAHSHU!*

Yesss!

I want plot twists that make me want to throw the book across the room. I want plot twists where if I reread the books and see the subtle foreshadowing/hints of that plot twist I would think “how the fuck did I not see that!?” I need more book series that do this because I have only come across one series that does that so far.

I like this one!

But sometimes a plot twist can feel forced or predictable, in which case it's better without the twist.

*sweats* uh oh. they're coming for me. oh god. i'm not safe. they're taking away my crops and poisoning the water. i'm changing my name and moving to norway. they'll never find me. this is romania mcgurdlestevengondo signing out.

Satan becoming evil was motivated by envy of God, but once he is evil, he is evil all the way. He sacrifices billions of people, without conscience or regret, throughout the history of the world; he wins one when he is able to destroy a human life, preferably spiritually, one whom God loves and wants for Himself. This is why we rightfully shudder when a person describes him or herself as a satanist. Evil, for the sake of evil, is evil in deliberate moral alignment with Satan.

Alina and the darkling 🫣

Batman and Catwoman, Daredevil and Elektra...

Ikr if your going to do that build that sympathy WITH character development. If their sympathy is just out of nowhere right after revealing their tragic backstory it’s just annoying.

I think this can only be done right in one scenario. If the backstory has been woven into the story to such a point you go: wwaaaiiiit a second, I get all that earlier stuff now.

I mean I can't say I agree 100%. I just read a demo for an IF where the character who attacked the Main is captured and we learn from there his tragic downfall. I 100% saw why he did things but regardless of his backstory he still did some horrible things. I've come to accept authors are allowed to put sympathetic motivation in to provide different perspectives but like all things, how its received is dependant on the person reading.

But if the villain plays this trope in universe to manipulate someone (like the Joker did to his psychiatrist)...

PREACH!

You must have been born *very* recently, they made a show with 204 episodes about this very unrealistic scenario. Over, and over, and _over._ Not to mention probably a bunch of 80's action movies. I don't think we need _more_ stories where the hero is a morally compromised fascist, but everything's novel to someone, I guess...

top 10 saddest anime moments

Garras redemption arc 👍

@Liza Johnson no it doesn't. You can be really selfish/greedy/hungry for power with no redeeming qualities, but it doesn't mean you're just being evil for the sake of bring evil. There is a reason you are evil, wether it be money or power or whatever.

I would argue that even in real life, there are people who are evil for the sake of being evil, it's called sadism

zakosist well they don’t do it thinking “ha ha, I like being evil.” They do it because they get entertainment out of watching suffering.

@@peripheralzx11 No, but the fact is that they aren't being evil to better their own prospects. They aren't being evil to make the world a better place in any way. They are just being evil, because they like it. Evil for the sake of evil. Pure evil.

@@georgevelis4651 Exactly! Thank you! I'm getting tired of hearing the "evil for the sake of evil" thing being aligned with pure evil villains. It is not the same thing at all! Being evil for the sake of being evil sounds like if someone is being a villain because they are playing a role. Evil isn't something you try to be for evils sake; it is something you are or aren't depending on what the world considers to be acceptable or not. Being pure evil means that you have no redeeming qualities as you said. But it doesn't mean that you are doing it "for the sake of evil." It means you do what you do because you *are evil.* Greed, power, sadism, hate, are all qualities that can motivate a person to do evil things. Many of the most infamous serial killers in our world were just messed up from the get-go. They don't kill for evil's sake; they kill because they have evil traits. And that's not unrealistic.

I was thinking the same ,in real life many people are evil for the sake of evil there's really not much justification to their actions.

Precisely. There are so many awful people who are simply awful. No complexity. They tend to just be selfish and short - sighted.

I have a friend who is in the clean up crew after the forensic people go over everything, and the things he sees and the reasons why they do it are disgustingly simple. Such as the guy being neglected by their mother figure and so they kill females that looks like their mom. Or the person was chewing too loud so they pushed them down the stairs and hid the body. There's no grey area in that. It's just a sick mind doing what sick minds do. Heroic villains are cool, but there is a real danger out there and they don't care about having a logical reason other than it feels satisfying to themselves.

@@1swerdna I just read that as selfish and short at first.... I was like, what does height have to do with it???

That's actually pretty scary..

I feel like he's a metaphor for corruption! Give anyone a little bit of power and it takes over them!!

"But I think it works really well because he has evil influence and he can corrupt even those that consider themselves good and pure." This!

That's why the Ring works so well. In a way, the One Ring is the truest villain in the Lord of the Rings, because it's the physical presence of Sauron's malevolence. The Dark Lord's true power is coaxing the darkness that already exists within others. Hopefully, the Amazon TV show showcases this while exploring Sauron's time among the Numenorians.

Sauron has an excuse to be pure evil though, having been corrupted by the already vanquished true big bad of Middle Earth, Melkor/Morgoth. Sauron was a prideful perfectionist who saw an opportunity to express his version of perfection through Melkor and Melkor used that drive to absolutely corrupt him into what he later became.

Right, yeah? He wasn't evil from the beginning of his existence. He actually had good intentions back then... to build a better world, etc.

That's actually an amazing idea! The kind that makes me wonder why it hasn't been done yet! That'd be such an amazing twist!

I think I get what you're saying. Basically like the 300, but with the Persians retelling the story which ends in their victory instead the one eyed Spartan telling the story to inspire the Spartan army.

That would be a really interesting read.

OMG I LOVE YOU FOR THAT.

RWBY . Go and watch.

A great example of this is with Claudia in The Dragon Prince. Her manipulative father, Viren, gaslights her and her brother and is generally a turd. However, Claudia, having been conditioned to trust her father and basically believe Viren can do no wrong, goes along with his plans like a loyal puppy dog. Although Claudia may not be the MC, she is one of the best characters in the show. Also, Viren is a wonderfully dimensional character, but that's beside the point.

idk if it's fitting enough but my first thought was Hannibal....

Like in Harry Potter!

Rumplestilskin from Once Upon A Time or in general???

Arowyn Once Upon a Time. Sorry for the confusion

@@arowyn.m I was thinking of the one from shrek lmao

Rumple was literally the best ouat character imo

Ezgi Same

I haven’t seen Megamind yet (for some reason) but I agree with The Incredibles definitely. They even make fun about silly tropes like that

Fully agree

@@joeyjerry1586 have you seen it yet?

@@JacobGrim, I finally did, three days ago. It was shockingly amazing. I did not expect it to be so funny but also quite mature and clever in its writing

But Megamind is evil for the sake of being evil, he want to be bad. Steinsgate has the main character acting evil, but eveyone knows it's just that - an act. This works well.

Yes, but even those people have reasons that they do what they do. It is often because of deep psychological issues they may not even realize they have, but there IS a reason.

@@deanneekstrand4128 came here to say that, especially psychopaths and sociopaths who lack the ability to empathize with others - not saying all psychopaths and sociopaths are bad people or murderers

@@deanneekstrand4128 I agree that they had a past that drove them to do that.But when it comes to psychopaths,their reasons are completely unjustified,they simply do it out of spite not out of craving for material like many criminals do.The human desire to hurt other beings even when it accomplishes nothing is a weird trait.

Random Guy Some do it for the challenge or thrill of getting caught, some see themselves as artists,etc.

Murderers don’t care so I agree on this logic

Right? They will never understand how much they damaged their own brand when they tried to redeem Maleficent.

What about Mother Gothel from Tangled??

@@weissrose1081 That was the last one, or one of the last. It's all twist villains after that

Maybe in the next movie they will?... let’s just see.

@@weissrose1081 She is the last good villain, I believe. SHe's an easy 10/10, but most of it stems from the ambiguity of her love for Rapunzel/the flower.

Believe the closest thing to that in reality is a psychopath. Quite different to how books and media portrays it though.

@@MayHugger True lol. However, even though not every psychopath will go around stabbing people I still wouldn’t want to be friends or associated with one at all.

@@johnthechamp4208 Why not? They're the most likely to know what's upsetting you, and likely to be the quickest to find a solution to problems. They have incredible charisma, which would be a blast to be around. Sure, you might just be a tool to them, but everyone uses each other all the time. What's the harm if nothing bad is happening?

@@johnthechamp4208 I'm personally of the belief that thoughts aren't what matter, actions and results are.

@@MayHugger They’re manipulative af and you’re only a chess peice in their game. I don’t want to be in a relationship with someone who literally only cares abt themselves and could just abandon me because they’re done using me.

Gaunter O'Dimm comes to mind for me.

@@JohnBradford14 you sir have a great taste

@@alexdakinn2495 Dude, when I found out he cursed that spoon lady in Blood and Wine, I nearly popped a blood vessel.

Umbridge. Just hearing that name makes me angry

@@TheBigMe0w you my friend are the kind person who should become president, #TheBigMe0wforpresident.

He does not fit the bill. He does it because he is the Maia of order. He is biologically programmed to pursue order, and the only way he knows to do that is to make everyone kneel to and obey him. Not pure evil.

Yeah also Joker people don't talk about joker enough he's the best pure evil villan 😌

@@bowl1858 If only there was a spinoff prequel showing the journey and transformation of Arthur Fleck into the Joker.

@@maxittax No, that sounds mostly overindulgent and boring.

@@kendrajade6688 yes, but i believe the point is that there /is/ a 'spinoff prequel' showing the journey and transformation of Mairon into Sauron, namely. the silmarillion. but hey, sauron gets to be pure evil and have no motivation because no one reads lore bibles.

"I was in the third grade; people treated me like a criminal... BECAUSE I KILLED SOMEBODY!"

"I don't care. I do what I want."

Thank! You! My boy was a Firelord. Fire! Lord! And he rocked it. Aang did him dirty tho.

Yes, it's the bad knock-off versions of those iconic fantasy/sci-fy villains that are annoying. Purely evil can absolutely work if you put in the legwork to make it an interesting story...

Donald Keller thank you, as someone else in this comment said , pure evil isn’t always evil for evils sake .

@Tom Ffrench Granted, I think it's pretty clear that everything Palpatine does, he enjoys. He straight up enjoys being "evil". And the prequels are so much more fun to watch because of it.

No they are boring

The videogame Spec Ops: The Line works with that idea. It's pretty brutal, though.

My villain is my characters talent agent

That actually sounds really terrifying and scary. There are a bunch of really bad people that can perfecting fit into the crowd without problem.

So serial killers but with extra steps.

@@RedYellowBird6889 something like that

Yoshikage Kira

Yes, but then the "old fashioned villain" turns out to be a misdirect and this is discovered halfway through

Actually it's "every fairytale needs a good old fashioned villain" do your research

@@mariadifranco9173 I love the reference.

Oh yes. Like having one good jokerish vilain. Like do villains grey and relatable. But have one who is just pure evil for evil sake. Some people in real life are like this, like pure unrelatable jerk. So it is good to have actually one like it. You feel good when it is happening because you relate to all the characters and when you see this old fashion villain coming. You are feeling the same fear has anyone else. And this feeling is awesome.

Moriarty...

No, it was too sudden. Her desire to rule and hatred of Arthur came out of nowhere.

@@925263 It wasn't as simple as that. Uther's hatred toward magicians/witches etc was a problem for her. She could never be who she really was as well as the fact that she was actually Uther's daughter. She has a half sister who is like her and will always accept her for who she is, on the other side she has a father who also loves her. However, he's too ashamed to claim her and won't accept her for who she is. It's obvious why she went down the evil route in the end. She desperately wanted someone to understand her and Morgause was the one to understand her. If it had been Merlin instead, then most likely she wouldn't have become the villain.

Secrets of the dragon sanctuary anyone?

I agree. Azula is by far my most favorite character in the series. Heck she’s my favorite villain of all time.

I was watching an old Disney movie, The Watcher in the Woods, recently, and someone pointed out that there isn't a villain in that story at all. There's just a bizarre and creepy situation where a girl mysteriously disappeared years before and some person or thing seems to be watching the other characters from woods, trying desperately to tell them what it needs them to do. At first, the characters don't know if the "watcher" is the missing girl or her ghost or maybe something that means them harm, but they can only get the answers and find the girl by doing what it tells them to do. It's suspenseful, and it's the characters dealing with the circumstances, not with a villain.

@@tracychristenson177 seems my kinda story, I'll check it out, where did you watch it?

There's the TV show The Americans where the anti-heroes are relatable, interesting, understandable people doing truly terrible things on behalf of a corrupt government for humanitarian reasons. They're not villains, they're not heroes, they're just normal-ish people doing bad things for good reasons that have unfortunate consequences.

I think you might like Fullmetal Alchemist in that case.

Revanchist AtLA, FMA and FMA:B are the best animated shows in my opinion

Did you know Wonderstorm made another show? It's called The Dragon Prince, and it's amazing.

SAME UGH

I will never get over how AMAZING that show is

He's gray all the way. From start to finish. A bit darker gray when he's a DE, then still completely gray to the end. I don't think he ever wanted redemption and so never worked toward it and could never get it. I love the character for that. It's refreshing to see...

@@Cassia_L This is such a good take and I completely agree. People always argue over whether he was good or evil, but why should a character have to be just either or. It's more realistic to also have characters who fall somewhere between, and characters who know they've done something wrong but still aren't necessarily seeking redemption.

You always hear the question, "Was Snape a good guy or a bad guy?" I think the answer isn't that simple...he was a bad guy, he just wasn't evil. There was one big bright spot in his childhood, and that was Lilly. He became obsessed with clinging to that memory and loathed himself for pushing her away. So, in the end, he was selfish, mean and obsessive but he wasn't the extremist that many of the other Death Eater were.

I really like the ambiguity that comes with the connection between Harry and Voldemort. If Snape suspects that Voldemort can glimpse into Harry's mind, then he would have to be antagonistic toward Harry to protect his cover. This is especially true during occlumancy training; until he can successfully train Harry, he has to make it look like he's intentionally sabotaging the training. It is never clear how much of Snape's vindictive cruelty is genuine. It is never clear if he was more a petty person begrudgingly doing right for the sake of revenge, or more a tragic hero always stuck in the role of the duplicitous spy.

That's what I find so fascinating about Snape. He is not a good person...but you kind of get why. He helps our hero...but it isn't because he "turned good."

Demon slayer? Edit: DEMON SLAYER SPOILER What I love bout Muzan is that ppl were fighting him bc they were against his goal. Thus, they were enemies. He saw an opening that his enemy could fullfill his dream, he forgot bout being enemies and only focused on the probability of his goal coming true. Which is pretty good thought of, since they were only enemies bc they didn't share the same goal. But since Muzan can benefit from it and possibly reach his goal, it doesn't matter to him. I like it when there's no line between "good" and "bad" and that we can choose it ourselves. I don't like Muzan, but I like how his character is written.

Le michael jackson

Muzan? Edit: when I saw "live longer" I was like (─.─ ） Then I saw "medicine" and "immortal" and I was like.... _Wait a damn minut-_

The Joker is a pure evil villain and he’s fantastic (I’m talking about Dark Knight and comics primarily)

Smooth criminal MJ from Demon Slayer?

The Mind Flayer from Stranger Things

@@eelio8469 Present all the way. Does not count

Thank you!!! It’s also like the way the real world works everybody talks about how nobody would it be intimidated by this person in real life but like I’m sorry you must’ve slept through history class because most of the most feared people in histor thank you!!! It’s also like the way the real world works everybody talks about how nobody would it be intimidated by this person in real life but like I’m sorry you must’ve slept through history class because most of the most feared people in history became so at least partially through indirect means

Tbh it's not overused as much as you think. It actually seems to be the opposite. Seems like most villains are sympathetic or morally gray

At least lately

@@StormgemThunder. Yeah people confuse "evil for the sake of being evil" with pure evil villains. I wish we had more pure evil villains because they can end up being just as strong and even stronger than "complex" ones. I've noticed a trend where every villain needs a tragic backstory or redeemable quality in order to he acclaimed as a great villian or as a good one. But that's just close minded because some villains are hard to feel bad for after everything they've done. Commits genocide and has murdered children. Man they're so evil. Has sad backstory or being raised as orphan. Man they're so sympathetic. Its just dumb

@@chinuaalibatya7345 I read that as "morally gay." 😅

But doesn’t the hero survive those scenarios? It turns into a “should’ve killed you when I had the chance” type thing.

Exactly

Skulduggery Pleasant has the BEST villains and plot twists. My favourite childhood series

exactly, i don't understand why every villain needs a drawn out backstory. some of those most bone chilling villains are mysterious as hell.

Grayson Alexander very true! Granted, it isn’t the easiest thing to write, but once you see the actions and consequences of the villain through the story he becomes bigger and bigger on your mind, the challange there is to find a way to keep that fear up when we finally do meet him/her. The first season of Daredevil is a great example of this. I knew I was scared shitless of the kingpin waaay before he came on screen.

You know how the heroes in Lord of the Rings see orcs? That's basically how Hitler saw non-white people. The Nazis in general pretty much thought they were heroes of justice fighting inhuman hordes of monsters. Which is unbelievably ironic, but the point is that they legitimately thought they were the good guys, because their worldview was just that warped and twisted.

@@imygurl08 hi

Sure fictional villains can be like that too, but why not add depth? With respect to Hitler, it's hard to imagine that those beneath him all thought he was pure evil yet voted him into power then followed, at least mostly (some Germans tried to undermine the Nazis), his orders. If your big bad villain has henchmen, how did they get them? If the henchmen are pure evil just like the main villain why are they working together instead of fighting each other? If the villain is solo, how does he pose a threat by himself? If he's that powerful did he have a mentor? Did his mentor know he was pure evil? If so why did he get trained? If the mentor is pure evil why did he train anyone at all? If he didn't notice when did the villain become evil? After the training? Doesn't seem very believable that someone would flip like that without some sort of traumatic event(s). Etc, etc. etc. So many questions to ask. There's just as much ground to explore with your antag as there is with your protag. I think adding depth and complexity not only makes a villain better, but you also need a certain amount to make them believable.

Personal I love villain monologues as long as its A)in character B)not used to solve problems

THIS

+

:'(

I have feelings that I didn’t even know I had

This has made me very sad

I'm watching the series for the first time (halfway through Book Three) and I strongely agree

IKR

Yes and Zuko is one of the greatest characters in media.

I am so glad someone else thinks this

Zuko and garras redemption arcs were chef kiss

I'm saving this as a reference for my next fanfiction-binge :D

@@keeprockin69 it's over 1000 pages long, so I hope you like them long. Never boring, though ^^

I'm pretty sure I read this years ago and really liked it. Some fanfic are so good.

@@Dustyrosepetal wouldn't be surprised, it's a re-read for me. It's pretty old ^^

@@Cassia_L I love them long! Those are usually the very best ones :D

Insanity does not equal evil.

@@skaetur1 Yes it does if your insanity causes you to do evil things.

@@skaetur1 in at least some of his portrayals he seems insane but is actually supposed to be extremely sane which is why he's the way he is. He's too smart and see the world for what it is

@@skaetur1 There are Joker stories where he knows full well what he is doing and could stop at a drop at a hat. It's a conscious decision to keep going because he can. Batman, local authorities, and Federal just keep letting him live so he goes on and on.

@@skaetur1 Sometimes we call evil insanity because we don't understand how some people can get enjoyment out of evil acts. But what we MUCH be careful of is that we don't excuse evil as if it's a mental disorder. In your five words, you showed the danger of this. Joker is an evil character. He's not necessarily insane just because those of us who consider ourselves good people don't understand how he can enjoy hurting people. He's fully aware of what he's doing, and enjoys the power. He's evil.

I would love to see more of that. The villain is defeated and near death, the hero begins his interrogation only to receive an infuriating and terrifying response. "I was only doing what I was told..."

Frollo was the villain in Disney' movie, but he wasn't in the book. He was a tragic figure just as much as Quasimodo, whom he had saved from an angry mob and raised with kindness and affection. Phoebus was much more cruel to Esmeralda, playing with her feeling while he was engaged to another woman and letting soldiers accuse her of witchcraft and torture her until she confessed.

@@thrillergirl021 I guess it depends on your definition of villain. In the book, Frollo may have had some sympathetic qualities, but he still does some terrible things, including laughing sadistically while Esmeralda is being burnt at the stake.

@@thrillergirl021 I was going to say the same thing. Thank you.

The Disney musical version of hunchback had one of the most sympathetic versions of Frollo. Apparently his brother ran off with a gypsy woman and died when the entire troupe got hit with the plague. Frollo blamed the gypsies and their godless ways for his brothers death hench his murder boner. And Quasimodo was his brothers kid, and while Frollo didn’t love him as a nephew he was the only thing he had left of his brother.

@@kyriss12 Damn 🤯! Really?

Depends on how you choose to define smart. The rules of Death Note ensure he could operate with impunity but his ego gets in the way. If it didn't then there wouldn't be a story, but it's also not very smart, operationally.

@@futurestoryteller Light being smart is not debatable. His sanity is what left him, not his brain.

Yes! That blew my socks off! I was like “What?! Luke?!”