Its crazy that the corridor is largely single tracked with how busy it is. Emperor Gavin, please build the tunnel

Man, I already take the Surfliner a fair amount so if they got the trip down to 2 hours and 15 minutes from LA to SD then I’d literally never drive the route again!

OCTA lagging behind in improving public transit? Color me SHOCKED.

I am SO glad you made this video! The Surfliner was a big part of how I got back home to Lancaster when I was at UCSD. I actually got stuck in San Diego last year because I had taken the train to SD the same weekend the rails got closed for repairs. I also enjoyed how you seemed to read my mind as I was watching the video. Early on I thought to myself "Man it would be such a shame to lose those views on the train" and then 15 seconds later you were addressing that. Later in the video I thought "Well where does high speed rail fit in here?" And there you were again talking about HSR right when I thought about it.

My friends and I go back and forth between LA and SD. This really needs to be a high speed rail with costing so where around 30 dollars per trip. Given how insane traffic is on the 5 on weekends, it would become quite popular.

I would like to quickly point out that the 20-minute time savings within San Diego County also includes the proposed Miramar Hill tunnel (with a stop at UTC), which on it's own, saves at least 10 minutes of travel time over the windy route around the hill.

I live along the LOSSAN Corridor; I'm also a member of the Passenger Rail in California and Nevada. Many of the proposals are being talked about but in truth Amtrak California needs to be independent of the Northeast Corridor. Most funding for Amtrak is shuttled to the Northeast Corridor while the LOSSAN Corridor is most funded by State and Local Funding sources. There has been a proposal to move the LOSSAN Corridor away from the Coast and to follow the historic Santa Fe Railway route through Orange County. But this corridor is being chopped up by Metrolink and Amtrak. What's needed is the engineering by CalTrans, the assistance by Amtrak/Metrolink and the counties along the entire LOSSAN Corridor to prioritize there vision for the entire LOSSAN Corridor.

There are at least 3 highways connection LA and San Diego, and plenty of flights every day, and yet both passenger and freight traffic is forced to share a single track on an old, winding corridor!

A challenge here is that a lot of the traffic using the San Clemente stops is beach traffic, since the stations are right at the beach. Building a tunnel would definitely help, but if it causes the stations to move inland, the line might lose ridership.

The Surfliner is already competitive between LA and Solana Beach in terms of trip times, driving thru OC is an utter nightmare

I had no idea about that double tracking in OC. WTF, that is so important! Great video so happy to see researched explanations about my local amtrak route

The Pacific Surfliner/Metrolink/Coaster between San Clemente and Del Mar is one of my favorite stretches of track in the country. It's a shame that the coastal erosion is happening as fast as it is and that a tunnel option may be necessary for its survival. The proposed High-Speed Rail alignment goes much further inland, stopping somewhere in the inland empire such as San Bernardino. I believe the coastal route, which existed initially because of how rugged the terrain is further inland, was ruled out early on because of these engineering challenges with erosion. Its sad to think that the coastal stretch may be a relic of the past, but San Diego and Los Angeles need strong rail connections!

Appreciate the video on this. I’ve been saying this for years, this line needs to be moved. Unfortunately up until very recently nobody liked the idea and even now there’s so much opposition even from railfans sadly. That being said, this project has a very long history. Most of the following info was given to me by a friend more familiar with the topic than I am, so I am just the relay, anyways. As far back as the 70s, the Santa Fe realized the problem this right of way was. They experienced several landslides in the rainy years leading up to this and were eventually supplied with grants to perform relocation studies. Santa Fe had successfully realigned many other sections of troublesome rail on their system including Cajon summit, the Crookton Cutoff, and the Peavine. San Clemente was originally going to be one of these realignments headed by ATSF, and chances are they would have done it but local merchants demanded that the railroad remain on the coast, they took the project to court and managed to get the backing of the city, the state, and several other private companies. I’m not saying these small businesses were wrong to fight for their interests, but that’s ultimately why ATSF abandoned their attempts. To this day there is major local backlash to realignment or improvements, and it’s even easier to push around OCTA than it was ATSF. For example… Once OCTA acquired the right of way, they set forth a project to double track it, this was in the early 2000s I believe, and it never even got studies started before a local “derail the rail” initiative got its way and blocked the project. To this day San Clemente opposes moving the right of way, yet complains the current one isn’t good enough, but then when they tried to improve the current, San Clemente didn’t like that either so it’s turned into a gigantic circle jerk and as a result nothing has gotten done or will be done anytime soon. I see it as unfortunately inevitable that the route is knocked out again for an extended period of time.

Love your videos, and love the surfliner, this is a perfect combo

I ride the LOSSAN corridor to and from work every day, and the thought of choosing to expand the 5 freeway over electrifying that route is pretty brain dead. Any expansion to the 5 won't actually help traffic, it never does

Santa Fe originally built the line between SD and LA via an inland route, but they kept suffering from washouts, so they rebuilt the line next to the coast to avoid that. An ironic turn of events happened more than a century later...

great video. actualllly take this train often for work and other events between SD and LA and it sucks how its allways down, the service is so slow and doesnt run as much as id llike it. was stranded in LA for a bit at 10pm after a concert as the lastt train had left! we need more service and a new route as well to make it futture proof

I hope that Pacific Surfliner go upto Downtown San Francisco (unlike Coast Starlight and California Zephyr at Emoryville) or CalTrain extend their service down to Los Angeles and San Diego. The point of this is to "reach out to people" and represent themselves and say "We are here for you" rather than tell people to "You must go to San Jose or Emeryville to ride the Amtrak train." This reality and inconvenience must not continue if passenger train companies want to increase the ridership and bring more revenue. For HSR part, I think Brightline West can create 2 networks from Rancho Cucamonga (just like Lake Shore Limited and Adirondack in Albany NY or Empire Builder trains in Spokane WA from Portland OR and Seattle WA): one to Los Angeles Union Station and the other one to San Diego Santa Fe Depot.

NCTD is currently evaluating converting the Sprinter more into a Redlands "Arrow: type service, allowing Coaster type trains into Escondido, comingled with Sprinter type DMU's... This would have more flexibility: Allow Coaster trains into Escondido and allow Sprinter trains south from Escondido Junction to San Diego. They would have to: 1. Install PTC on the Escondido Branch. 2. Replace the current Siemens "Light Rail DMU's" with Standler type "Heavy Rail DMU's. FRA and FTA regulations have a grey area that has finally have had ends meet in the last few years. This is why not only I support the tunnels, two main tracks and added capacity and shorten travel times on the Surf line, but keep the "Surf" beach segments for these lighter "DMU's for regional/commute" services. The line will last that way without heavy freights and heavier passenger trains, including Amtrak... Also, one point in your favor is freight, remember, the SD&AE hasn't been repaired, yet. San Diego MTS asked SANDAG to study the SD&AE. SANDAG asked CALTRANS for help studying. See the pattern here? 1. This is the only way into San Diego. 2. Military Bases in Daygo. 3. This is the only way into Northern Baja: International pressure.

Great video, improvements are desperately needed. One thing I'd add is that surely they can probably get LA-SD below two hours with additional improvements along the route.

OCTA lagging behind in improving public transit? Color me SHOCKED.. Love your videos, and love the surfliner, this is a perfect combo.

Great overview of the current challenges. You did mention that the route is the only freight route into and out of San Diego. And, while the Port of San Diego isn't on the scale of Long Beach or other ports, it's nothing to sneeze at. It handles around 2.9 million tons / $6,46 billion of cargo annually, and in that are over 400,000 vehicles imported from various manufacturers. The vast majority of those vehicles leave the port on BNSF auto trains (I can only imagine what I-5 would look like if they all had to leave on semi trucks). To lose the rail connection between the port and the rest of the country would have substantial impact on the local economy. I recently rode the Pacific Surfliner to the LA Union Station Trainfest from San Diego, and it was great. It took pretty much exactly 3 hours. A month earlier, I had to make a similar drive to an office on Wilshire Blvd, and it took 3 hours and 45 minutes. The roundtrip cost of the Surfliner ($66) would have been a wash with what I would have paid for gas, tolls, and parking. It just makes sense. Like you, I hope our elected officials get off the dime and act before it's too late.

The long-term vision of the California rail plan is an inland route for High Speed Rail. That's why this is relatively low-priority for major capital investment. You can find rail planning documents from 1982 that tell the true but secret story.

Great Video!

The fact that HSR is supposed to take the inland route makes large amounts of spending on LOSSAN south of Anaheim politically difficult. Makes it hard to justify spending hundreds of millions if not billions on new tunnels HSR won't use. Repairs and maybe double tracking the whole line, yes, but tunnels or electrification, probably not.

THANK YOU for making this video, this is one of my biggest gripes with socal transit, the goddamn surfliner, i would use it more if it were more frequent as i go to mexico alot for family and the connection to the SD trolley to mexico is great, talking about great, jesus christ is this video good

One thing I don't think you mentioned is that this section of LOSSAN is part of the DoD's Strategic Rail Corridor Network (STRACNET). It is the only rail link to some of the largest US military installations like Naval Bases San Diego, Point Loma, and Coronado, plus MCAS Miramar and Camp Pendleton. I think we should be leveraging that fact to get the army corps of engineers on this to safeguard the route. I feel pretty confident they could get the San Clemente and Del Mar tunnels done faster and cheaper than anyone else. If we could get the LA-Anaheim CAHSR segment alternative that uses the Union Pacific ROW (saves 25 min) and the Miramar Hill tunnel (~7 min), an LA to San Diego express train could be 1h45m.

As a San Diego pax of the surf liner, its relevance has increased for me personally in the recent years. $70 round trip to LA Union Station used to seem steep, but now that’s barely a tank of gas, so it’s my preferred day trip method to get to central LA. The LA metro is also really convenient if you’re going anywhere near silver lake/vermont, North Hollywood and even the closer areas of the valley. Amtrak is often delayed compared to the Metrolink which is a much cheaper local option, but it does have more stops and transfers. Would love cabin improvements too.

Love your video!! But those shots at 4:02 are just High and low tide, you can clearly see the high tide line in the first shot.

Great video.

I never knew the Surfliner was actually really useful, considering how late it is half the time I’m surprised it’s actually that popular

I do have plans to visit LA in the future but I’d like to spend a day or have an overnight stay in San Diego and I’d like to take this train as part of the journey.

In the 1940s a SP helper was sitting on a siding north of Ventura. The crew noticed a crack opening between the siding and the main. Before they could do anything about it, the entire siding and the locomotive tipped outward and fell onto the beach. The retired SP engineer who told me about this said that the areas of the coastal route that run along the beach have been eroding and sustaining damage since the track was first built in the late 1800s.

I rode the train north from San Diego to Dana Point several years ago. It was a decent trip, great ocean views. The tracks were layed along the beach because that was the only place they could be layed. Just inland, there is an endless series of mesas and canyons. you would have to build a bridge 100 miles long! Just North of San Diego city, the single rail line hugs the side of lots of steep canyons, it twists & turns that would give a snake a back ache, before you finally end up out on the beach.

HSR should have 24/7 construction to actually get built

Having been impacted by the most recent closure requiring coach-bridges along the freeway in the most picturesque part of the Pacific Surfliner route, I'd still prefer it to driving any day. It's amazing how complicated something like this gets, especially compared with vehicle infrastructure. It still needs to connect with local transit that is coordinated with the train schedule to be effective, but it has tremendous potential even if frequency & reliability are improved between the main depots.

I travel on the Pacific Surfliner when I’m home in Chula Vista,CA on visits up to a week 4 times a year. I ride the Pacific Surfliner between San Diego, Los Angeles & Oxnard alternating my visits between Los Angeles & Oxnard. The tunnels would be great. There’s also a third one that could be looked into, this at is from the start of the climb up Miramar grade in La Jolla and drill straight through the hill to Sorrento valley and continue in a straight line through Del Mar-tunnel to Solana Beach and move the tracks away from the San Clemente beach area. The cost will be high to build those tunnels, but it will more than pay for itself in the long run with shorter & faster passenger, commuter & freight train service and the many cars, trucks,vans & busses that will be taken off the busiest highway on the West Coast-I-5

The Amtrak Coast Starlight runs right by the ocean too whenever they use tracks north of LA

Wow a KZfaq train video that talks about the train down the hill from me.

Came here from @alanthefisher 's recommendation, great video. subbed, time to binge!

holy shit new matamodernism

The USA needs to get aboard the Belt & Road Initiative and get those 200mph+ High-Speed Rails all said and done!

The recent cliff erosion was due to rain, not the ocean. There is similar landslide conditions throughout San Clemente. I don't think a San Clemente tunnel is within reason. The coastal route can be maintained for far less. The erosion can be mitigated. For one they could barge sand to increase beaches.

4 BILLION DOLLARS?!?!??! for one tunnel!? USA is not very good at building anything for rail.... In asia or parts of europe that could buy you a whole metro system

If you want to stop worrying about both the ocean, erosion, and the landslides, put the train on elevated tracks with fortified piers deep to bedrock. This way you can save the cost of studies, land acquisitions, tunnels, and so forth. Properly engineered, you could even do this while keeping the current line open.

679 Thumbs up .... great video! Thanks! We have been wanting to take this train for years!

4:22 Del Mar tunnel expected to start work in 2028, ready in 2035 6:49 LOSSAN Rail consortium

people do not drive because the highways go everywhere they drive because trains go nowhere....

I think that is a good idea, if only there was something we could do.

You should see the Seattle Sounder N Line (and also Amtrak, forgot the route, they share tracks)

really hope the rail line gets moved soon

Thanks for reminding me to start riding these trains sooner than before their inevitable collapse

The San Diego trolley already reaches La Jolla, and some day it will reach Oceanside.

I guess I wonder if this is just going to get totally surpassed by California high speed rail. If that's offering passenger service between the cities it's going to dominate this pretty hard

$4 billion in California really means $25 billion. Interesting video and to just learn about all of this. Thanks.

I was going to take Amtrak from San Diego to Houston in Oct. 2022. Then I got an email telling me my trip was probsbly cancled b/c they couldnt get me from SD to LA in time to catch my train from LA to Houston. So, I flew back to Houston. 😢

Great video btw! Love it! Just look at the California's High Speed Rail line thats taken almost 20 yrs to do....Does anyone really think that Surfliner/Metrolink will get its shit together? The politicians that have their hand in the cookie jar do not help either. If the transportation agency is given say $100, politicians and CEO's/CFO'S etc are more than likely gonna be $98 for me and $2 for the actual rails. We have the High speed rail to look at and now they want to build a rail line to Vegas and fix the Surfliner corridor...so many projects not enough people wanting to really take ownership of the projects either. It's someone elses problem if something is going wrong. And OCTA is a joke...even the MTA for L.A. is terrible we have the worst transportation infrastructure known to man! The only reason and I mean THE ONLY REASON, the Surfliner corridor got repaired so quickly was because Comic Con was about to happen and that makes San Diego a ton of money, hence why SanDag is so ready to help even in OC.

I LOVE taking the Metrolink to San Clemente

Also bnsf never stopped running trains during all the closures

For the near term, they could stop pussyfooting with their riprap/rock armor and use actual tetrapods/doloss.

It's Southern California, car central - home of vast freeways and millions of cars. Rail simply isn't important. Look at how long it took L.A. to rebuild light rail and their system still leaves a lot to be desired. And Orange County has nothing. Even San Diego is not that great for a major city.

Landside on rail line again ☹

It would be More cost effective and be started and completed far more quickly... building a breakwater 100 metres from the high tide level on the land. The use of the interlocking concrete units would stop the onslaught of the waves battering the coastline, washing away the land... and then replace the single track with double to triple tracking. Pile drive pillars every 75 metres... making T T T T and across the top of the T's place the prefab T=====T======T======T======T etc with the ====== slab track being 5 to 10 metres above the highest tide level. This would maintain the coastal view, remove the erosion of sand, dirt, rocks/shingle, etc... This has been done in other parts between SD and LA. It was 'costly' because it was constructed as a One Off. Standarisation and elevating the entire coast section for 100+ km... would remove the S, ), (, and other squiggly wiggly minor to major twists and turns. The T T T T can be over land or over water... the pillars when piled into the sand... irrelevant if underwater, wet, or dry.

Rail transportation between population centers is great... It breaks down however when you are dealing with suburban and semi-urban regions. Also, trying to take away private property - the Santa Fe's right of way - which is used for freight traffic - and use it exclusively for government subsidized (taxpayers pay for it with our tax money) passenger traffic is problematic at best. The Northeast corridor works because it runs through areas of insanely high population density by North American standards... the rest of the country is not, and has no desire, to be so crammed in like sardines...

God i hate living in North Orange County. OC streetcar almost feels like a slap in the face considered the underdevelopment. Still im a faithful OC Bus rider :')

Could it be all the rivers and creeks are cemented? This prevents the natural replenishment of the sand.

If they are expanding an interstate that runs parallel to the existing track, the solution is obvious. Look at what Brightline did to get to Orlando, and what they propose to do to get from LA to LV. Build a pair of railway tracks along the interstate as part of the upgrade. Where there are no stations, run it down the middle. Where there need to be stations or the tracks need to diverge from the interstate corridor, build a bridge or cut-and-cover tunnel to get the tracks from a side to the median. It's far cheaper to build these bridges or tunnels at the same time as the road upgrade.

I once took an overnight mega bus LA-SD and it was hell on earth. The flight wasn’t even expensive, I didn’t even know about the train. I just thought I’d sleep on the bud and save a night of hotel. Someone took my reserved seat cuz bus people, also someone puked on the seat beside me and then at a later stop someone had to sit on the puke seat! (The girl who did it didn’t even switch seats wtf)

I believe the tunnel concept is wrong. It's disingenuous for engineers to say they will achieve higher speed by plunging the line into (two) out-of-alignment tunnels, when the existing horizontal alignment would afford as much speed as can stably be achieved. If you want to move the tracks away from the water the simple solution is to raise them up, and get rid of the grade crossing(s) at the same time. It is one of the most dramatic pieces of railroading in the world, at Capistrano, and it should be preserved for all time. Rip rap is not extensively used now, or not extensively enough to elevate a two-track line along the coast there for high speed and capacity. (They should also get trains with a lower center of gravity: the Highliners look particularly idiotic in that situation.) It was only shortly after mid-century that railroads began running their business as a racket, and were willing to sell off rights to enter and cross the property with roads, and box it in with other constricting encroachments. Rather than insist they run certain trains, the government should have insisted they preserve their property intact. The nonsense of promoting tunnels in that location is merely a continuation of the type of racketeering that started developing in American railroading immediately post-war.

That Interstate repair was many times much more expensive than the rail line reopening too. disgusting.

I always want California High-Speed Rail in California and I always love California High-Speed Rail in California.😮

What about land reclamation?

There collapsed again and on construction till tomorrow. I’m annoyed with this inconvenience .

The tunnel will never get built. It will simply cost too much money and the line will still mostly be single track.

Yes and yeah of course California High-Speed Rail in California.😮

Comparing BNSF/Amtrak problems to the I-95 collapse is a bit of a stretch given the massive Interstate traffic volume; there wasn't any real alternative to 24/7 repair efforts while commuters on the Surfliner route had reasonable options: the freeway, bus or air travel. As for the live streaming, well, if you've ever taken a camera near the railroad tracks, you already know railroad personnel have been indoctrinated to think anyone contemplating a video or photo collection is first considered a terrorist and second, a potential vandal. Their response is to call the police, railroad bulls and whatever other party they can find to negate, defer or otherwise invalidate your Constitutional rights. If they were a little bit brighter, perhaps infrastructure damage might have been approached with a higher priority. That said, we've seen this before in the months following Covid - when in doubt, blame all issues on the pandemic.

The route should be double-tracked.

One of my favorite rail line in the world,just a shame what climate issues have done to this historic line

As a Orange County Native and a frequent rider of the Surfliner, I do not support the tunnel system. Yes, I understand WHY it’s a feasible solution, and I am not being ignorant to the reason behind it. I completely understand the risks of keeping the system the way it is now, but a tunnel will kill the Surfliner. The whole reason the Surfliner is a success is because of those ocean views, and that’s why people ride the Surfliner in the first place. It’s also why Santa Fe’s San Diegan was so successful. People ride the train because of the views, not just because it’s a mode of transportation. For some they ride the train for fun because of the views. Build a tunnel system that bypasses the most scenic part of the entire line and there will be a dramatic loss in ridership. If these tunnels are built, Im fairly sure that the Surfliner will die. Those tunnels will just be used by freight trains. Say whatever you want, but if these tunnels are built, the Surfliner will die. Yes, there are views up north, but they’re nowhere near as spectacular as down south. There’s nothing like it. There has to be another solution to the problem, because yes, I do understand the potential dangers of keeping the line like this. But there has to be another cost effective solution that keeps the line where it is now. There’s definitely a solution out there, or someone willing to come up with one. Im no expert on any of this, nor do I think of myself of one. Im just saying it can’t be the only solution. I love the Surfliner just the way it is and I would hate for anything to ever change with it. A tunnel isn’t the only cost effective solution, it can’t be.

Why can’t these rails be revitalized by being raised up high above the ocean’s shoreline on pillars, much like how most of our high speed rail is being built now

Its simple orange county wants to kill the train

Tunnels in a earthquake zone.........what could go wrong.

All just a pipe dream. NIMBYs, local politics, and spineless transit agencies will never let any of this happen. Be glad for what we have now, 12+ round trips with even more frequent commuter is pretty good, and you have to admit that all of this track shifting and landslides is highly contributed to California having a freak year of weather.

Insanity is spending millions repairing landslide damage over and over again and expecting different results.

AlI expensive. A trillion here, a trillion there... pretty soon you're talking real money!

The various governments will never prioritize rail travel and state funding turns every project into a boondoggle. The only solution is to sell the whole thing to the Brightline guys from Florida and let them make it work.

Too late now, but it seems that diverting money for this practical and heavily-used route from the silly and never-to-be completed HSR project would be wise. Many of the same folks wringing their hands over “climate change” are all for funding freeway expansion instead of diverting some of that money towards LosSan improvements. The words “wise” and “California” rarely have gone together since Pete Wilson was governor.

Why not monorail on the coast.

I don't understand what happen in american heads for not building lots of trains

This country is a joke when it comes to rail. Despite all the obstacles rail service seems to be back though. I can't wait for Cal Hi Speed Rail open and see the affects on Central valley towns.

Man, this comment section is filled with channels i sub to - i have been pilled all right, 😂

Unbelievable that this issue hasn't gotten more political attention. Really need the state or fed government to intervene but the limited political will for transit is split between so many equally infuriating problems.

Thank their gov who is busy siiping wing

CHSR will be grat

Replace everyone at US DOT

train comment

Dana Point resident here... No, I can assure you that the vast majority of coastal cities (Dana Point, San Clemente) residents do NOT want any expansion of the Surfliner coastal route, quite the opposite. Why? Because the beaches are eroding fast, as you show so well in your video. It's called, "Climate Change", with slowly rising sea levels, which will only accelerate in the coming decades. We've already seen the complete loss of the beach in the Cypress Point area, where your video shows construction earlier this year of a long retaining wall to stabilize the track where sea water was splashing during storm tides. And as the situation worsens, we've seen a proposal (that you didn't mention - why?) of "fortifying" the tracks...essentially building an elevated railway along the coast, which simply will not fly with local residents, you know, the monied, politically connected ones with bluff-top homes and ocean views at risk. Not going to happen here, I can assure you. The other thing you didn't mention in this video is that there is an alternative way for passenger train traffic from LA to San Diego, and that is using the same rail lines that freight currently uses via the 91 and 15 freeway corridors. It's inland, not nearly as scenic, but it's an option, especially if it will cost $10 billion to build the two tunnels you discuss. In my opinion, the far more important rail line project for California to complete and protect is the High Speed line between SF and LA. It always faces enormous pressure from do-nothing, so called "fiscally responsible" Republicans to kill it, and kill progress in our state. As for the Surfliner, it's time has come and gone, and should be abandoned completely, once inland passenger service can be permanently established in the coming years. We're not going to defeat the rising ocean at the beach level, so what's the point? Instead, turn the rail beds into an ocean view bicycle and pedestrian walkway, like so many old rail beds have been converted to along the East Coast (especially in the Metro DC area, like the bike path from Bethesda, MD to the Mall in central DC).

We need to withdraw our support from establishment democrats, like Governor Newsom who isn’t going to fight for anything but himself. We then need to establish standards for the construction and operation of rail service as exist in Europe. The idea that every rail project in the US is a costly reinvention of the wheel wastes billions of dollars and squanders precious time. It doesn’t have to be this way

Liberals

because none of us want to take train service it's not the most cleanest service if they get rid of all the homeless people on board. doing things that we don't want our children to see that it might be worth taking last time I was on the train I watched a guy pee in a cup and another person changing their outfit where you could see her Foley naked and that's not appropriate for children