I have many years of fencing experience, I've built like 57 fences.

The problem is not fencing as a sport, the problem was the mismatch between your interests and expectations and what Olympic fencing is. When people are trying to practice and prepare for tournaments and bouts, having someone complaining about the pistol grip being historically inaccurate is a distraction, which may have irritated your teacher. My college fencing club actually started explaining to new club members that fencing is an athletic sport and not historical simulation so that people who really want to do HEMA don't waste their time. I'm glad you found HEMA, but clearly, Olympic fencing is for you what golf is for me - a sport you don't like.

I started fencing at the recommendation of a HEMA practitioner that I met in Britain. The reason he recommended it as a starting point was because it would train my body to react quickly to sudden attacks and would give me basic ground work to build upon. I was very lucky that the instructor at my university was a man who would teach the competitive techniques, but also taught the original techniques and then explained why they fell out of use in competitive fencing. He also added Italian longsword into the cycle of classes that he does. In that class, one of the students asked what techniques would be allowed in a fight with longswords. His response was "Anything that works. If they leave their crotch unguarded, kick them there. If the come in to grapple, bite them if you have to. The techniques I'm teaching aren't to be used on the field of honor. This scenario would be that someone is coming at me with a sword and only one of us is walking away, and I'd use every dirty trick in the book to make sure it was me walking away."

i stopped watching kitten videos for this

My math teacher in grade 8/9 was teaching us about multiplying polynomials, specifically through the FOIL technique (First Outside Inside Last). On the work sheet was a picture of a fencing sword! ... It was an epee.

As someone who has fenced Sabre for six years, I can definitely confirm that fencing is not by any means a "sword fight." It is, like you said, a sport. Sadly, I think that going into it hoping that it would be more than that is probably why you ended up dropping it. Yes, there are a few practical uses of it, but it is far from what a lot of people hope it is when they start it. Many people end up dropping fencing once they realize this, however as someone who has stuck with it for many years I can assure you that in terms of strategy it does become more complicated, and new moves are introduced, but for the most part it just stays the (lovable) sport that it is. Besides for the screaming, which has become the plague of Sabre tournaments now (as the directors allow glass shattering screeching from the girls for some reason), I feel it is still a pretty rewarding sport to keep up with :)

I don't like foil. It's rough, course and irritating

I was a European fencer with epee for 12 years and switched to Kendo 16 years ago. I know both very well my accumulated experience is 28 years, so to say :). I participated in many European Worldcup Tournaments in fencing, in several European Championships in Kendo and I'm a go-dan now. In fact fencing helps a lot. But only much later not in the beginning. Movement and technique are very different but the tactical concepts are still very similar and you need the same killer instinct. But at the end it's always a "game". No blood, no kills. And that's a good thing.

"That's like a gun-toothpick." 😂😂

As a long life fencer: having a problem with fencing as a martial arts, is like having a problem with tennis as a wrong representation of shooting a bow and arrow. In other words, it doesn't make sense. I love fencing, and I completely respect that you were disappointed in it because you wanted something more real to life, not a sports activity. But no fencing teacher worth its weight is going to claim he/she will teach you a viable martial arts. If they do, find another teacher please. Can fencers gain inspiration from martial arts such as HEMA or kendo? Sure, they are completely free to do so, but that is only to broaden their fencing experience.

Hi Metatron :) As a practicioner of both olympic and historical fencing (I am currently studying to become a Historical and Artristic Fencing Instructor at the Accademia Nazionale di Scherma), I have to say there's a point very few people grasp: They're the same discipline, but with different rulesets and weapons. Fencing, or "Scherma" is a martial art that goes beyond the weapon you're using. There are universal pinciples (speed, tempo and timing, distance, strategy and tactics) that are applied differently based on what's the game that we're playing: if the game is killing each other with a sabre, for example, of course I will have to effectively parry your blow and riposte on the neck with a proper cut; but if the game is switching on a light with the right-of-way rule, I will just touch your blade and poke you on the arm, so that the referee gives me the point even if you scored a split second before me. What doesn't change is the underlying mentality of the duellist. The right-of-way rule was born as a mean to preserve duelling gentlemen's life, to maintain a better "frase d'armi" or construction of the conclusive action in order to avoid a double hit or "colpo delle due vedove". So it's actually one of the most "historical" components of modern olympic fencing. What happened then, what created this aberration of fencing, is that the mean turned into an end, so all the technique is being thrown away in favour of this game of electrified tag. Probably to make it easier and accessible to more people. We leave theoretical discussion to enter FIE politics here, which I'm not really into. And, tecnhically, REAL swordsmanship is dead and there's nothing we can do about it. We cannot practice ACTUAL swordfighting without dying, being badly injured or ending up in jail after the first bout. So we have to make compromise: olympic fencing is a good one, because it withholds all the technical and theoretical components of real fencing, even though the outcome is a bit crappy (but I'll make an exception for Epee here, which I think is the most HEMAish because it's non-conventional, and therefore more "realistic"... Yes, I'm an epeeist 😜); HEMA is another compromise, but in my opinion in the HEMA community there is too much pedantry on the interpretation of one or another specific treatise, and not enough good use of fencing principles, so the result is a bit crappy in HEMA competitions as well... The best approach would be, in my opinion, to learn the proper mindset by attending foil (OH THE HORROR) or sabre lessons with a maestro (not instructor), and then move over to non-conventional fencing such as epee and/or longsword, sword and buckler etc. Perhaps sooner or later I'll make a proper video about this point and explain better 🙂 Peace :D P.S. Yes, when you start epee with no fencing background, it's better to use a pistol grip at first... The french one requires a bit more dexterity, so your instructor was right 😆 P.P.S. Epee also has, of course, a big aberration, which is a double point for a double hit, instead of 0 points. So if we're, say, 11-13 I will just attack over your attack and seek the double hit so that I score 15 before you. That's what makes me think that the best ruleset for historical fencing is one similar to epee, but with no points for the double.

Your video reminds of several things I have experienced in the past. I too learned Olympic Fencing (OF) because I was interested in swords and there was no HEMA school near by. I came away with a great respect for OF. Yes, there are things in OF that are not realistic as you mention. You have to realize that allot of these rules were created before safety gear was readily available the way it is today. But overall, it will teach you allot and develop reflexes and corrdination. I have always incorporated many things that I leared in fencning even when learning Filipino knife fighting and they have worked very well. For example, in OF I was taught to always have my weapon infront of me and to have the point at the opponent. I guess I learned that from epee and foil fencning. I also learned the effectiveness of thrust. I would spar with allot of people in knife fighting and some of them were supposed to be very advanced students. They would do weird things with the grips, blades positioned not infront of them, and even moving the blades around. I know this sounds very arrogant but I ususally ended stabbing many of them with no problems: I just treated soemwhat like a OF match. Yes, there are some goofy rules in OF but if your techniques don't work then you don't win. That makes it very utilitarian. You are correct in that there are allot of people and schools who talk a good game but fall apart on the field. They have come up with some really dumb stuff that doesn't work. I think OF has allot to offer and with some adjustment, it can lend itself to some very practical technique.

As someone who has a year of foil experience i can say that those swords aren't as wobbly as they appear the reason they appear so is because of the incredible speed and strength of the olympians that for some reason Elitists like to compare all of fencing to.

You would have enjoyed sabre alot more. Pistol grip does not exist in sabre fencing, at least not that I have seen. You also get to slash as well as stab, which opens up alot of moves and more swinging motion. Look, fencing is a sport. View it the same way you would view boxing. Yea it will help in a sword fight against an untrained guy, but it would likely lose to just about every other sword style out there thats actually designed for combat. Fencing is not. It is a sport that evolved from combat into just that: a sport.

When i was first learning fencing, I started with a straight grip, and it wasn't "bad" for fencing, but when i began using a pistol grip, i found my movements and thrusts to be much more fluid. At this point i still prefer the pistol group for the purpose of fencing.

I did 5 years of fencing (foil) before moving onto HEMA and I have no regrets. it taught me to keep distance and good footwork.

Raf, I agree with your point, and that's the reason I chose the saber to train olimpic fencing when I was young. At my city it was the closest thing to a real sword combat. Best wishes

I have not fenced or done hema. But i have done boxing since i was 15 and i used to think like you when it comes to terms with mma. I wanted to do mma for a long time but only had boxing available and i thought that it would be a disadvantage to spend all those years only working my hands. Only now i realize how much i learned in boxing and that it was not any harder to unlearn bad habits than to learn new ones, which is also a reason you can see like kickboxers going into the ufc faster than a guy starting with mma from scratch. I strongly believe it can be the same case with hema and fencing and if you wanna do hema but only have fencing available do the fencing. You definitely will learn hema easier with a background in fencing.

Your work ethic is amazing. Seriously, I have been inspired by it. Been loving the videos and the schedule!

I also like swords, and I prefer the French grip, but unlike you I love fencing and the idea of an 18th or 19th century gentlemen's duel. I never really was fixated on MEDIEVAL swordsmanship. And besides, with my skill in fencing, I feel that I can use pretty much any sword with some success. Also I came to really admire Fencing for what it is, or is descended from - it has such precision and technique!

Both certainly have their benefits. I took Olympic fencing in college and was even top of my class. Like you, I absolutely hate the pistol grip, it's trash but I do understand why they insist. It's all about wrist alignment, with a French grip, your wrist is at an angle which slightly limits your tip control. The pistol grip allows for a downward parry without having to twist your wrist completely over to catch the low thrust.

What is the one hobby or art that you have actually stuck with? I ask because it seems that you practice many things relatively briefly and then quit them after finding "issues" with them.

I just started HEMA, specifically German Longsword, and I find that my 3 year prior Kendo experience is helping me greatly, the primary thing I need to learn at the moment is stepping out of line and defending myself while making my attacks but there is a decent amount of carry over and I feel like it's helped me progress much quicker than I would have with no prior martial art experience.

As someone who mainly fences foil (currently a 'B' in USFA's system), consider this a contrary perspective. There seems to be a notion in the comments that foil is 'useless' outside the specific ruleset in modern fencing. That, to put it charitably, is BS. Foil as a discipline forces you to master a number of blade actions and distance management. You can't just turtle by forcing doubles, like you can in Epee. You have to parry and riposte. You can't just focus on low risk arm picks. You have to set up a deep attack to the torso. You can't rely on getting points through doubles. You have to take the initiative and set up attacks because of ROW. The closest analogy I can give you is learning tennis vs pickleball. Tennis forces you to use body rotation and master technique whereas pickleball is a lot more forgiving on form and athleticism. It's quite well known within fencing that if you're sufficiently advanced in foil, you can pretty much switch to Epee without a lot of training and do well against anyone who is not a very high level competitor. As an example, I've never trained in Epee at all, but am currently a 'C' in USFA's system. Likewise, I've seen 'U's and 'E's (the lowest ratings currently possible) in foil consistently beat Bs and Cs in Epee when they try foil. At one of our in-house club tournaments, a foil fencer who'd only joined about a year earlier easily beat (5-1) an A rated Saber fencer who'd been fencing since he was 7. Put simply, the skills you develop in foil translate the best into other weapons and going the other way is far more difficult. So, no disrespect to your coach, but she should've insisted that you do at least a couple of months of foil. I also practice HEMA rapier and smallsword (though mainly recreationally and somewhat for the scholarship) and foil translates even better to those depending on the ruleset. Once you're really good at distance and timing, even without knowing exact techniques, you can land covered hits against people who've only done HEMA just through footwork. Though they'll probably beat you if you get into a grapple. Pistol grip vs french grip: I've fenced with both. I like fencing french when I'm at the club and sometimes use it competitively in Epee. In competitive foil though, you'd have to be idiot to pick french over pistol. The pistol grip pretty much forces your tip to point the right way. It's more or less impossible to dislodge the blade from your hand and your blade actions are a lot stronger. If I were teaching someone fencing, I'd probably start them out in french but basically tell them to switch to pistol if they have any desire to fence in a tournament.

I like your videos, but this one doesn't make much sense... Olympic fencing is a SPORT. it is not meant to be a historical knight fight reenactment XD. I used to do foil fencing myself. Of course thats not realistic combat... It never was meant to be... Foil is the most technical weapon out of the three. For people who don't know: both Foil and Epee are thrust weapons only. In Epee, all targets are valid. From the foor to the helmet. In Foil, only the body and crotch (lol) are. Arms, Helmets and legs are not valid. The Epee is a very stiff triangular blade, while the foil is a small rectangular blade that is very bendy. You can actually hit your opponent in the back in foil (would technically be legal in Epee, but good luck bending that triangular blade XD). In Sabre, everything from the waist up is valid, and you can both thrust and slash. The blade is also triangular, so it's quite stiff. It is not as fat as the Epee. There are other difference in the rules as well between the three weapons but I guess that gives you guys an idea. Fencing is a beutiful sport. But don't take it as a realistic fight reenactment... it's not! Its an individual sport, much like Tennis...

Has anyone gone from HEMA to Olympic fencing? It would be neat to hear your experience.

Hello Metatron! How would I go about contacting you personally? I don't mean via telephone or anything necessarily. It's about an Italian class project in University that requires an actual Italian citizen. And other then the people of the local Massolin di Fiori society (which haven't been answering my phone calls sadly), you're the only other Italian that I know, could you help me out? According to my teacher it should be really as simple as a single message. I would like to explain it a bit more in detail in private, but I don't know if KZfaq has a PM system. Thank you in advance.

As someone who did Fencing for around a year of fencing with mostly foils but sometimes sabres I loved the Pistol grip. It felt right in the hand and the movements in fencing felt natural. It's a grip that was made for fencing. Fencing is a sport not combat and as a sport it's great but there are elements of it that can work in a martial context. The footwork you get from fencing is second to none and to this day even after years of not really practicing it I can easily close or widen my distance against an aggressor easily and if I'm carrying a knife I know I'm able to get close to anyone who wants to do me harm. While I ended up giving my foil, with the great pistol grip, away I like any Puerto Rican own a Machete, I still like to practice the sabre forms with it and fool around a bit. But yeah Olympic Fencing, specially with foils is mostly a points game. My teacher who trained the Olympic team use to say that back in his day people really hit each other hard so that the Judge could know who hit first but this days with electronic sensors mostly replacing Judges it became all about speed. I understand as someone who was more interested in Historical 14th Century Swordplay to not be a fan of modern Fencing equipment but there's a reason for it to be that way. A Pistol grip for example is great to protect your wrist and have the right form all the time while using a Foil. But with sabre for example you use a more classical sabre handle with hand cover so that is more similar to how a sabre was used in combat. With Swords it's pretty much anything you want to do, it's full body so there's more movement options. That being said it's your equipment so a trainer forcing you to go to a Pistol Grip is definetely not good. A good teacher simply let's the student grab a couple of equipments and see which one calls to you so to speak. For foil fencing for me the pistol grip called me and I bought my own online at a bargain, you had to see the reaction in my dorm when a long ass box came for me lol.

I know competitive fencers sometimes sort of patronize HEMA folks, which is unfortunate. Speaking as a long time and very high level sport Sabre fencer, as well as a long time disciple of both German and Italian longsword, I cant hold my piece any longer. Metatron, and all other fellow HEMA folks- modern sport fencing is still very much fencing. The two biggest critiques I hear are “sport fencers aren’t afraid of being hit so long as they get there first” and the pistol grip complaint- more on that in a moment. In sport fencing, we have a concept called “right of way” (in foil and Sabre) which evolves from the historical idea of having to address an incoming attack before attacking in turn in order to increase one’s chance of survival. The goal is still to do everything one can to hit without being hit. That’s called a “one light” touch. It’s what we do our very best to achieve. That way there can be no question who scored. HEMA has the same issue. Even at the very highest levels currently available, the vast majority of modern HEMA fighters will always try to attack into an attack. I see this all the time with my club- I attack fast and from distance, in a straight cut, and yet ALL of my club mates will just swing right into me, rather than address my attack first. It’s so prevalent that you will see it happening just as commonly in high level HEMA as in sport fencing. So, please stop the critiques. Point two- the pistol grip. The pistol grip was designed originally for competitive foil and epee fencers to maximize the ergonomic potential of one’s hand to increase speed and tip precision aka “point control”. And it really does. The goal of sport fencing is to both: learn to fight, but also to compete against others and that means you have to train every part of yourself to be the fastest, most precise and most athletic you can be. It typically flows much faster than it looks, meaning that it also is usually moving much faster than most historical fencers (long sword excluded) typically move. At those speeds, and having to hit with a very small part of your sword, the extra precision allowed by the pistol grip makes all the world of difference. I had me reservations with it when I first saw it, but it really is a huge help at competitive speeds. Lastly- as to your training. Listen, I’m not gonna criticize the club you went to, but they should have started you with foil. The rules and techniques of it provide a very basic info to the other two disciplines. Most successful training programs follow this method and, as a former instructor myself, students of mine who began with foil always outperformed those who did not. I was a Sabre man myself, even made alternate on the US World Team in 2003. Sabre was the perfect fit for me as it’s all about speed and aggression, but without my basis in foil, I never could have gotten where I did. Sorry to rant, but sometimes both competitive and HEMA fencers get entirely too “high horse” about their respective disciplines and I figured my perspective as having spent my whole life studying both might shed some light here.

Since I just started going back to classes for competition fencing, I feel this needs to be shared. The instructor commented on how we no longer think of them as swords, so we will do things you'd never do with a live blade. His suggestion? Hook the swords up to car batteries. "If you knew every time that hit you, you'd feel that zap, you'd focus a lot more on not getting hit."

Awesome videos. Keep up the great videos.

For me, the thing that killed my enthusiasm more than anything else was the over-engineered point-scoring mechanism (all the beginners had to start with foil). I could have gotten over only counting torso hits, but having a mechanism that constantly stopped the bout with any mishit and that could easily get knocked out of alignment by mishits meant the entire sport had essentially been changed to fit this annoying little buzzer, when it was only supposed to be a tool to make refereeing easier. Also I was confused by the pistol grip at first, then I took a HEMA class in Spanish rapier and it started to make sense, because the grip we were taught (index on ricasso, middle-finger through loop, fourth and little fingers on handle) puts the hand in a very similar position to a pistol grip.

A video shortly after 6. How early do you get up on weekdays?

fencing is for whimps, real men throw pommels!

2:19 are you from Sicily? in that case i neither found any hema club on my town if i want to learn how to fight with sword and shield (or axe and shield), what to choose?

Contentious statement: Foil is a good basis for learning longsword. The stances are so different that your foil habits will hardly interfere with longsword at all. (they will interfere with rapier a bit more). Distance and timing carry over more or less seamlessly. The right of way system is quite similar to Liechtenauer's Vor and Nach, and to Meyer's provoker, taker and hitter concepts. Foil will make your point control good enough to actually hit with your thrusts.

As a foilist, I agree completely with your assessment of foil - it's a game, a modern sport, and it doesn't really represent historical sword fighting at all. I prefer the sport aspect of fencing, its athleticism. You're a typical HEMA fanatic - you want to feel you're playing with a real sword. But modern fencing isn't about the weapon - matches are won and lost entirely on footwork, distance and timing. The weapon is incidental.

I stopped listening to winged hussars for this video

Hi the Metatron. First I'd like to say i really enjoy your videos, they are fascinating! About the pistol hilt, I didn't really understand why you hate them so much and prefer the french one... I have some experience in fencing (mainly in saber but also a little bit in foils) and i have found the pistol hilt much better in terms of maneuver and control of the blade. This grip is meant to be used in an Olympic fencing duels which are different than hema duel, and therefore require other things from the weapon.

I completely agree with you about the handle when I was researching fencing a few years ago I saw that and it really put me off of it

I am doing fencing for 8 years now. I think fencing is more for people who like 17th and 18th century swordfighting. I like both medieval as well as 17th and 18th century swordfighting. But i prefer want fencing. Oh. And a fun fact. On my club you can also learn on how to fight with bayonets on rifles.

For me, it depends on how much experience they've had in either. Someone with a few months of Kendo is much easier to train than someone with a few months of foil, but also someone with YEARS of Kendo will be harder to train than someone with years of foil. In the end though the difference is small. My favorite thing about taking on either group is watching their faces when I tell them they will never have to do that stupid duck walk ever again. I mean I guess we're screwed if Santa's elves attack, but that's a risk I'm willing to take. (Yes I know it builds leg strength, but there are so many other ways of doing that.)

You are really good! Those subs are well deserved.

It's very simple. If thrusting is the main purpose, the French grip makes little sense, regardless of what you may feel is historically a sword and what isn't. No matter how you swing it (no pardon for that pun), If you hold a sword raised higher up, like a knight type sword and you cut more than you thrust, then French grip makes sense. You can see that with sabre fencing, no pistol grips there, since you mainly cut/hit and don't stab with the sabre (even-though it's allowed). With both epee and foil, the only way to accurately score a point is if you thrust. It's very difficult to reliably score (=actuating that spring in the tip) by way of a swinging motion. You'd have to hit with the tip, and you'd have to make sure the blade is bent so that the angle of incidence of the tip is enough to actuate that spring. It took me a lot of practice to semi reliably be able to do that. So yeah, regardless of what you personally may feel is and isn't a sword, pistol grip makes perfect sense for epee and foil, in fact I don't see much advantages to using French grip for those weapons. In most cases, it may even be harmful for your wrists. You don't see many epee and foil fencers use french grip and you don't see many many martial artists thrusting their opponents with their wrists bent down like the French grip. People punch each-other with a fist, sort of in pistol grip. Guns are usually with pistol grip too, not French grip. Of course you can use a knife or a blade in a stabbing motion with your wrist bent like that, but if you pretty much only stab and only use sideway motions to deflect, the pistol grip has a lot of advantages. It is not an insult to the sword. At least, I don't think so. I don't find any disadvantage to fencing epee with pistol grip, I do with French.

heeeey... i like Foil! for wrapping my food :^)

Wait a sec, you're Sicilian? Please make a video about it! The impression foreigners have of Sicilians is almost fantastical. Stuff like honor culture, hotheadedness, mafia-stuff.

I have more than a decade in each of fencing, kendo and Pekiti Tirsia Kali (Filipino martial arts). The first two are clearly sports and the last a study of efficient ways to meet out death. Kali is a blade art, with the training principles equally applicable to sword, knife, stick and empty hands. It's goal is to dispatch the enemy quickly and to return you home safely. While there is less than lethal sparring the mindset is contra sport. My interest in kendo and fencing faded as I aged and my athleticism waned. My mind was still very sharp and my sport lethality was there, but the joint strain and lack of applicability of skills toward self defense dulled my zeal. The lethality of kali is more aging friendly and the use of an edged weapons lessons the need for maximum power and instead focuses on speed and accuracy. Nevertheless; all combat requires a sense of distance and timing and thus the years I spent in kendo and fencing have given me a combat sense way beyond my years of study. My body has aged considerably but my brain remains sharp and my ability to read an opponents intention is still strong. I consider myself, at best, a lower midlevel kali practitioner, but the blade skills I have learned give me substantial confidence that my array of perfectly legal pocket accessories are likely to keep me safe where ever I go. Takeaway - time spent learning any weapon art is not wasted. If you want to learn practical self defense applications, sport arts need to be set aside for those systems designed for real combat.

Hey metatron I noticed in a few videos you referring to types of swords as a (such and such) sword type 3. Is there a reference of the type of swords numbered? I imagine there is but I'm looking to see a book or list with examples of the swords, numbers, and pictures or drawing of it?

Two changes would fix sport fencing. First is that the time between your hit and theirs needs to be greatly extended to at least a full second. Second is that double hits need to be punished so that sport fencers have to defend themselves rather than just worry about who touches the other one first.

As an olympic (épée) and HEMA fencer I have to agree with you: 1. Yes, Foil is somehow lacking (that is why most new fancers gravitate to sword and saber) 2. I completly agree on the pistol grip, they are atrocious. I also prefer the french grip. 3. Truth be told: There is actually very few difference between épée an rapier. You do not even have to "unlearn" much, the stances and attack patterns are almost identical and the agressivness necessary for épée is quite helpfull. The other weaons in HEMA gain from the additional knowledge abour distance, tempo and speed. If you think about stating to fence (olympic or HEMA) I recommend épée as a stating point.

I heard that in HEMA they also teach you to fight with other weapons than sword-like ones, like axes, or warhammers...is it true ? Cause i am interestes in axes, swords and knifes.

I remember when I went into my fencing class in University, I was having a hard time adapting to the style, this is after practicing longsword and bienhander for years before. I would always say someone got me, even though I got the point. This is foil, and I broke more than I probably should have, and I eventually got to the point where I understood it and had some fun, but then I just went back to practicing Goliath, Fiore, and other manuels and starting to branch off into Zhanmadao, Miao Dao, Han Jian (long), and hand to hand combat arts like kali, dipping into Krav Maga, the usual ones. All very interesring to learn about and to put into practice.

Can you learn fencing using a fence?

Epee fencing is actually the least like actual dueling. I'll leave saber out of this because I've only fenced epee and foil, but foil is based off of dueling and closer to it than epee by far. Dueling is referring to a duel for honor instead of a sword fight between soldiers on a battlefield. The basic principle foil is built upon is to avoid doing anything that would be considered suicidal in a real duel. The right-of-way was established to model that. If you attack without the right of way, your action would likely end in your death if the weapon were real. Foil target area is the torso because a wound in that area would penetrate a vital organ, and it's important to make sure the first hit is the last. When an opponent gets a simple wound, they go into flight or fight, so in a duel, you had to hit the torso to ensure your own safety. I'll agree with you on the pistol grips because that addition was for the purpose of bettering the sport rather than attributing to historical accuracy.

100% agree, I went to a fencing club for a couple of years, I found foil so restrictive, like why am I only allowed to poke them? I really didn't enjoy it and the thing I did to take advantage of the "only the point counts" rule only got me shouted at. I remember enjoying the few times I was allowed to do sabre, found it so liberating and found myself learning more as their was a higher chance of hitting someone by using different ways of moving the blade. I was crap and stopped eventually, as I really didn't enjoy it and found it stressful to only do the moves which grade 1's were taught (I only ever got to a grade 2 XD).

I've been practicing Katori Shinto Ryu three time a week for more than two years now. Love the professional teaching coming from reliable sources, and kendo is something I wish to practice to a certain extend in a near future too. As for HEMA, don't get me wrong, if there was a club in my era i'd be there asap but i fear meeting a lots of amateurs with questionable teachers.

ahhh you hurt my feeling really bad;( foil is actually a pretty interesting fencing style and it is also a GOOD choice before you move to small sword.

can you do a kali (arnis/escrima/fma) video?

A few points as both a competitive fencer and a coach: Firstly it sounds like you had a REALLY old fashioned coach. I know that on the continent there is a long period of S&C, footwork etc. before you are allowed to fence, but here in the UK we get people fencing within their first hour! Secondly, I agree that epee is the best, however it doesn't sound like your coach explained the grips properly. The French grip and the Italian grip both give you less strength than the pistol or Belgian. The French grip is just straight and an Italian grip is straight with rings attached to the guard. As the pistol grip gives more strength, the Italian grip fell out of use (I think I've only seen one ever, and that was just an old one a club had for novelty value) but the French remained because of pommeling - holding the grip at the end (the pommel) to give extra reach to offset the disadvantage of reduced strength. You might have had more luck with a Russian grip (sort of a halfway between the two, like a French grip with stubs protruding to add control like a Visconti pistol) or a Belgian. Thirdly you can cut with a sabre, but like foil it has poxy priority rules. This basically means that if I attack you, you parry me and repost, we both hit at the same time then only you get the point. If we both attack at the same time no-one gets a point. You also can't hit the legs. Supposedly the sabre evolved from the cavalry weapon, which is why below the belt attacks are not valid, as it was bad form to hit your opponents horse. The epee evolved from the duelling weapon, and was to first blood, which is why attacks anywhere are valid. The cutting edge was taken off and the V shape added to create a lighter and therefore faster thrusting weapon. Foil was originally a training weapon to teach blade-work and is just silly. Lastly and good coach will teach you to not stop when you get the hit, but to carry on until you are told to stop or retreat in a way that protects you, as too often a fencer thinks they have gotten a hit, stopped and been hit themselves. I've seen it happen too often and is something you should have drilled out of you. Maybe fencers with a problem with this should try HEMA cross-training to wallop it out of them.

Technically, foil is not a toy, it's a training aid for a short sword, which is a real actual lightweight weapon that was designed to be portable in cities and was carried around by the nobility. In fact, the nobility was obliged to wear a weapon. That weapon was supposed to be used against a guy protected by metal plates by poking in the holes in the armor. Also, the "ignoring the threat" thing also had its purpose in the training. It was supposed to help the learner to acquire the proper technique that is useful in combat. I'm assuming that the idea was: in a real combat, the fear of being cut will naturally come back. But applying good technique will make your hits more lethal, parries more effective and that advantage is what counts in a real combat. Look at Sabre for example: just scratch the opponent's arm and the lamp goes on. Or Epee: you touch opponent's toenail and you score the point - that only counts in 19'th century duels, but has nothing to do with combat. So, in my humble opinion, modern foil is closest of all three to what you need to prepare for a real combat on small swords. Of course, except for the flicks.

Seriously? There isn't a club by you? I mean I live in the middle of nowhere and I found a club I can get to often enough. Granted it's a 2 and a half hour drive but it's worth it.

The mindset is different. A sword fight is to kill someone while a sport is to collect points.

Foil does teach you a lot of crucial point work, in fact it was extremely useful for my progress with military sabre in HEMA, as most treatises strongly advise to study foil as well.

the foil was invented to prepare for the duel. parry and attack is the most basic thing to survive. attacking the dead zones, the torso in particular, is much more effective than piercing a foot or an arm, and being killed by an instinctive riposte ... I suppose that the chevalier de Saint George, great French foilist of the eighteenth century and the most formidable duellist of his time would not say the opposite ... I like Metatron's analysis, even those little inaccuracies that allow us to intervene at the right moment.

I did some fencing and found it so funny when friends would want to spar. One, in particular, would swing so wide and it was just so easy to dart in on a thrust and dart back and just keep hitting him and not ever being anywhere to get struck. This guy thought he knew sword fighting but he was all talk and it was fun to know a little and just put him in his place.

You can't compare Fencing/Kendo/Medieval with a real life situation and say that Medieval has advantage over the others. Cos you don't get out in the streets and stab people. You might only do that in video games.

foil is foundation for good epee because epee on its own you can be good but to excel you need to have a foundation in foil typically for fencers because in foil you learn how to parry repost, timing footwork beat attacks, etc all of which are important technical skills needed to defeat your opponent I think

I practiced kendo for about 2 years. My experience is probably significantly different from yours as I practiced it very casually (only once a week), and in the US. I did get my shodan though, so there is that. I noticed pretty quickly that kendo wasn't like real fighting but there are certain things that are transferable. In kendo, they really stress learning to strike while telegraphing as little as possible, which is also pretty useful in a more "real" fight. They also stress proper form over speed. The understanding was in an actual match, you'll probably be trying to move as fast as you can so it's important to practice slowly. I feel like that approach would also be fairly useful in HEMA. You also get pretty good at timing, which I think is probably the most important transferable skill you learn in kendo. I did try out fencing for about 3 months as well. What I noticed about it was there wasn't as much focus on proper technique and controlling the center wasn't nearly as important as it was in kendo. I remember my first fencing match. I tried keeping my opponent's foil off of center and they just let me do it. I was wierded out and went for a lunge. They just stepped to the side and rotated their arm to poke me in the side. I didn't like it at first because it didn't agree with what I learned in kendo but it is it's own sport with it's own rules. I probably would have liked saber better. Unfortunately they made us use foils because we were new.

+Metatron I'm going to do a response to this video in my channel. I understand that you speak spanish as well then i'm going to do it in that language because I could explain better my experience. If you think you could not understand me (and if you see this comment) please tell me as soon as you can to do my video in english.

I really like your videos Metatron, but seriously this one is stupid because of what you said about foil fencing. I practiced foil fencing during three years with my father (who practiced almost since thirty year and did national competions here in France) and it seems you completely missed the point of foil fencing. The priority system of foil fencing is in fact a way to simulate the risk of being killed during the fight. Basically if you hit your opponent when he has the priority you don't have the point, because to obtain the priority he succesfully put himself in a dominant situation. At this point trying to hit him is useless because you are already exposed, at best your going to wound him before being killed and you should try to put yourself in a situation where attacking isn't a 50/50 percent chance to get killed ; so get back the priority. When your doing sport you don't think about all that because your life isn't at risk so the priority system is a way to avoid what happen in sword fencing ; trying to hit your opponent at all cost, because it's not a problem if he hit you as long as you hit him first.

so since the katana is somewhere between a one handed and 2 handed sword what would be the kind of style to learn to use the katana properly? i'm curious.

I practised fencing for quite some time before i started university.... I think something that is not considered usually and that fencing can teach you very well (at least on épée, the one i practised) is blade control... The concept of the Weak and Strong of the blade and how to get it out of the way to get to your opponent; something that is crucial for rapier or sword&bucklet HEMA...

Metatron does not seem to understand the advantages of learning fencing with a pistol grip as a beginner. Had he been just a little bit wiser he would have listened to his instructor and after a while would would have been able to make a more informed decision rather than pretend he knew what was better for him from the outset. When he knew a bit more about fencing *then* he might have decided to use a french grip (there are a number of valid reasons why its just detrimental for a beginner to start with one). Just because something is historical, it does not make for the best initial learning method.

Despite your best efforts, I was offended by your apparent disgust at foil. I don't do it for sword fighting. I'm not an idiot. I enjoy it as a sport, similar to one who enjoys football or tennis or soccer or whatever.

Not fearing for your life while fencing or practicing any kind of swordplay will kind of ruin the reality of it, but where would we end up if people would be killed in olympic fencing? Same can be said with any risk/reward activity. Take poker for instance. If you remove risk of losing money then the game becomes shallow empty shell of what it supposed to be. I think same can be said about sword fighting aswell. If you know your opponent could kill you then you would be very careful of what you are doing. I personally think they could implement many rules in olympic fencing to make it more realistic, but i cant say for sure what other impact it would put on the sport. One rule that comes into mind is penalizing for reckless moves, but how would you judge it is another matter entirelly.

As a disabled fencer (played in both in able bodied standing fencing and more recently Wheelchair category B), who started on foil, pistol/orthopaedic grips have a place for us. Moved onto Sabre pretty quickly though.

Epee is combat and makes me feel like a thug... Sabre is perfect for theatrical fighting and makes me feel like a magnificient bastard. Foil is art for the sake of art and makes me feel like the fearie king, embodiment of grace and precision. My focus obviously lies on a different aspect of fencing than yours and I much, much preferred the latter two to just going in and starting to stab, trying to make my light light up first... epee is just kind of brutal, like a Wanderlei Silva led MMA training facility...

That's too bad to hear in reference to your instructor. The best teachers are the ones who are both ready to admit they can be wrong and are willing to learn.

I did some kendo before passing to HEMA completely and, from my experience, i think that there are some things that can be useful in both, and in lots of martial arts in general. For example: how to grip a sword, how to control fatigue, basics of footwork, reflexes, how to resist pressure and intimidation from the opponent, etc... are all things that i learnt from kendo and proved to be useful even in HEMA.

As you were ranting about the pistol grip of mostly foils: Do you know about academic fencing, mainly done in Germany or Austria? I believe that would be an interesting topic for you.

I think that you should be cautious of critiicising masters or teachers without fully understanding their methodology. Frankly if a person with limited martial arts experience started criticising me or the the tools of my trade, I'd get pretty uncooperative too.

You have a very odd accent. It sounds like a mixture between West-mids type English accent and a Eastern European Accent.

Hey brother, we're now facebook friend! Thank you for your acceptance, and for everything you do. Jordan Mills.

I do not know if You will see this, but just a thought: I am a national coach of Olympic Fencing with many years of experiance. From my point of view there is a high chance that your instructor was right: Womens epee it is a 50:50 decision if You should go for pistol or french grip men epee is more like 90% pistol 10% french. Men hit the blade much harder so You really need to be the type for the french grip. second: for french grip you are fencing much more out of the rythmus of your footwork (if you start late with fencing (and what I could see of your body type) it is hard to get to the point where you can outmaneuver your oponet with your superiour footwork). 3. from Your kendo & hema experiance you should be more used to "talk" with the blade then with your footwork. 4. it is strange to me that you refuse the pistol grip, the roman army was very open to modernasation and improcement

Im sure the fencing instructor was happy having an ''expert'' like you in the course telling him whats proper fencing. And refusing to fence with a pistol crip? If you want play with swords thats fine but you should have a bit more respect to your teacher in the course. Sicilians took home three olympic medals in the RIO olympic games, so I think they know what they are doing down there.

Olympic fencing is basically a game of tag with long stiff wires. I don't think it should be called "fencing" anymore.

I've got a good HEMA teacher, he has a pretty good sense of humor. It's serious when it needs to be serious, lighthearted when it needs to be lighthearted.

Is it possible to create a fourth modality in sport fencing, epee rules with the Sabre slash attacks? Would there be a problem with the electric gear?

I like your videos... But it is clear here you do not understand Olympic fencing or its roots. Foil is a killing weapon, originally, designed specifically to be as easy as possible to pierce skin and organs in a duel with specific rules. Epee was born later of a time when death duelling was seen as barbaric, and ot became about first blood. Sabre is a recreation of horse back duelling. Those reason are why you have specific target areas and the "aristocratic" nature of the duel is why there were so many rules. Rapier fencing is a completely different animal, as is medieval sword fencing (like the arming sword). Giving up on it because you were dissapointed that you didn't get an arming sword? You should have known that going in. I do hate pistol grips, though.

Not entirely sure why you expected to be using medieval arming swords in fencing.. please explain to me how you could have possibly made that error. -_-

Mr Metatron. One thing i would like to mention mention is that Italy is one of the nations with the best fencers in the world, so perhaps your teacher is one of those who simply wanted to give her club medals and wins. Because my fencing-trainer is very passionate about the art of the sport, yet I have seen many trainers who can't seem to think about anything else than results. That will always make the experience of training fencing feel miserable.

I loved the part where you talked about learning to cut without being cut it was really eye opening.

Is there anything you don't have experience with? hahah 😜

Foil fencing is actually the preeminent sword dueling style. Thinking foil fighting is a joke or just sport exposes ignorance and intellectual laziness. This is not typical for you, so I'm compelled to conclude it's due to irrational bias.

I live in Colombia and i have grown interest with fencing so i would like to know what are the Steps and requirements to get into the sport

Metatron, I can't wait to see The Gripping Adventures of Space Walrus!

HEMA practitioners when a modern olympic sport is not a historic life or death battle 🤬🤬🤬😭😭😭(not once did anyone ever suggest that it was) I'm so fed up of HEMA nerds complaining about a completely separate sport not being the same as one they like just because they assumed it would be It's like a rugby player going to play American football and then badmouthing the sport as a whole because it isn't the same thing Fencers might not be sword-fighting but at least they're not annoying and pretentious

Foil has always been a joke/meme between sabers practitioners. I am sorry foil but you are just funny I am not sorry. I don't regret anything

I did foil fencing when I was young. I honestly didn't like it much at the time, but I kept doing it because my parents were avid fencers when they were young adults so I didn't want to bum them out if I stopped. Also I wanted to fight Épée, but they only did foil at the place I went. Since you did practice fencing in the past, you MIGHT have heard of my coach, Fleurette Campeau. She actually went to the olympics as an athlete and trained a few athletes up to the olympics when she became a coach. Haven't done any of it for at least... 20... 25 years now, and I kinda want to go back to it now!

Hi. I enjoy your videos very much and I must say I agree with you on this topic, as, in fact, in most others. I started learning how to fight and sword fight with my father when I was 3. I am now 38 and I never stopped. My father's focus was stage fencing but, as a martial artist and a stage director that staged fights, he always looked for ways to study the techniques that would have been used in ancient times. At the time you didn't have HEMA you had modern fencing, ancient manuals (if you could get a copy of them) and your wits. He went on to become a modern fencing instructor and we where both among the first people practicing HEMA in an organized fashion in Portugal, when the opportunity for that came alone in about 2008. All the while I worked with him and from 2004 with Master Eugénio Roque (you can google him). Still our focus was and still is stage fighting; we practiced both modern fencing and HEMA in order to best be able to choreograph (or so we tell ourselves, truth be told we were inspired by the same kind of lore that inspired so many others). Because I spent all those years practicing fencing and several oriental martial arts, when I finished my bachelor's degree in acting I specialized in stage fight. The last few years I worked hard with the Portuguese Fencing Federation and became a fencing instructor and a maître d'arms for the Academie d'Arms Internationale. All the while keeping in contact with the guys that direct HEMA in my country and attending to some practice sessions (I can't be everywhere at once). All this to say: Yes, modern fencing is a sport. There are lots of details in the rules (not just the equipment used) that make it different from HEMA. It is great, as you said, in preparing you to fight in HEMA. The mind set is different because in sabre and foil there is the priority rule - not so in epée, though. It personally bums me that épée (wich is the sword) can't score by cutting but... that is just the game. Even HEMA, where you practice the real techniques as a martial art, has rules that make the fights different from what they would be like when it come to combat, because... well, in the old days they got maimed and/or died in combat a lot. :p So, fencing is a combat sport, and HEMA is martial arts (arts not art because there are so many styles and weapons, like you said), but in reality, even though HEMA might be closer to a real combat, both types of fighting are game. It only depends on what kind of game you prefer. The closest thing to real fight is Battle of Nations... but the injury rates are about 20% and sometimes people die. Even in HEMA long term exposure to hard impacts, despite the protections, can be harmful for one's health. The way I see it fencing evolved from a way to kill people into a sport and the into art (with artistic fencing/stage fight). Sure this is not absolutely linear, there were always different tips of stage fights and sort of sporting events with swords and stuff, but it is the way I structure it in terms of evolution - from something that kill to something that elevates the living. Of course artistic fencing (the sword fighting part of stage fighting) is completely different. But I believe that in order to make it more believable you have to master all you can manage to master in fencing so you can later deconstruct it and use it for the narrative you build when choreographing. Its fake on purpose because the purpose is different. But it shouldn't look fake (unless that is required by the director). But that is an all new video... Still, many look for the real thing inspired by stuff they have seen on stage or scree so... hurray for stage fighting and great story telling (even if the fake fighting is not that good). :) Personally if I feel like fighting (with weapons - unarmed is different, I am also graduated in different eastern martial arts) I go for modern fencing épée, its safer than HEMA (and as an actor and fight choreographer it can be bad to become injured so I don't risk it as mush as when I was younger). For learning real martial techniques and the real feeling of the fight, HEMA (but I practice only for research - and I love it). For fun, work and money artistic fencing and stage fighting (actually may main focus although I spend many hour on the others as preparation for this) . But thi is just me. :) Cheers, Tiago da Cruz ----(----------------