Shellenberger is a voice that should be amplified. He is the type of “liberal” that the “left” has left behind. He is sensible and willing to change his mind.

I really have been enjoying Lawrence Krauss. His interviewing style is endearing, obviously well prepared and deeply researched . . . and he demonstrates a genuine interest in his subjects. I’m learning a lot.

Fantastic interview, thank-you Lawrence for having the intellectual bravery and honesty to have this conversation, bravo

Well done, Dr. Krauss - Shellenberger is an important voice on this subject

I'd like to see Krauss have an Origins conversation with physicist Steven Koonin about his 2021 book: "Uncertainty: What Climate Science Tells Us, What It Doesn't, and Why It Matters"'

I love everything you've done Lawrence, but on the subject of climate I feel you've fully gone down the "we're doomed unless" road.

wishing him all the best. Hope he becomes the Governor. More power to sensible, far thinking individuals like him. Thanks Mr.Krauss for this conversation, and the update!

Why does KZfaq keep force feeding me this channel? Every time I fall asleep I wake up to this guy. It tells you something about him that KZfaq tries to force him upon you.

MS is an international treasure! An intellectual giant of our time!

As one who respects nature I would prefer ethics and massive resources being directed to getting compact nuclear right thus sparing large areas of land being directed to solar, wind and destructive mining for rare earths and the like. Then the real emergency of plastics and natural world and species destruction can be addressed.

Great discussion! This was very interesting, and informative. Not every single idea Michael Shellenberger has is the answer to the madness, but it's at least an attempt to make things better.

I like Michael, he is a rational environmentalist. He may not be exactly right in all his ideas, but his ideas need to be taken into consideration. He is a good foil for the highly emotive over the top catastrophists.

Magnificent discussion !! 👌👍👍👍

One of these two is well spoken and very intelligent.

Very good point that Lawrence makes about hesitating in going into politics is that you can't really go into and talk about the real issues you feel are important ! Ideas and concepts for Planethood , World Peace and Human Solidarity , Illiminating the War Machines and Weapons that potentially can destroy our civilizations , working wholeistically to solve the vexing problems and alienations of our human family , etc, etc ! Instead candidates too often resort to petty party politics and criticisms , put downs and narcissistic ego bragging that we have been most familiar with the past few years ! We need to rise to a better standard of behavior and coherent enlightened thinking to serve the real needs and desires of all humankind !

Michael kept saying well I have two points to make there when Lawrence would ask a question, but he could have had ten points it didn't matter as 20 seconds into his first point Lawrence would interrupt him and the conversation would veer off in another direction. Shellenberger had far more patients than I could have mustered.

Good but some "devil in details issues appeared". They discussed the time to make reactors like it is fixed at this decade-long process when we built the first X pile reactors on the Columbia river in about 2 years starting from not knowing how to build a reactor. The difference between then and now is we now know a lot more with better design and control capacity being strangled by a bureaucracy that has no idea of the cost of delay. As an Applied Scientist (physics, chem, math with an undergraduate in mainly nuclear engineering) in '71 I took a job in the nuclear/environmental department contractor building reactors. My first assignment resulted in a design that would save about 10 million dollars along with higher performance, which went up the line only to be rejected because it would cost more than the savings to get it through the regulators. I switched to coal-fired plants with real environmental issues without regulatory permissions required. Dr. Krauss said that solar didn't have these big regulatory delays without noting that the regulatory delays in building a solar-grade silicon production facility in the US are so large that it is impossible in the US to compete with China, which has 90% of the world's production because they allowed multi-billion dollar facilities to be built in 15 months. Technically these facilities are more like a cross between a steel plant and a major petrochemical plant. Yes, we can build an assembly plant in an empty building, but the solar silicon to create the material to assemble are into the regulator delay game on everything from the sand supply to the carbon supply, infrastructure needs, etc.

Great conversation. Bravo to both Michael and Lawrence for being taking criticisms in stride. Both made good points and both had some moments that they went off the rails a bit. But they both learned something and I am glad I listened

47:20 wow.. lol 47 minutes in.. "one of the the things I want to ask you at the very beginning ..." love it!

I am hearing thoughts of Bjorn Lomborg. Love these dialectics. . Learn so much!

Enjoyable informative interview/discussion with a demonstrably patient and gracious Michael Shellenberger - and an honest, somewhat uncomfortable acceptance of uncomfortable facts by Professor Krauss - cheers and thank you :O)

Looking forward to this one 😃

1:12:20 (No) “the worst heat level” will not be the tropics, per AGW theory, temps will rise marginally there, while northern latitudes experience timberlines again into the Arctic What results is more uniform global temperatures, a smaller pressure gradient and so less extreme storms… win win

Great vid, I have a lot of respect for both of you, keep it up. Love the jar of water 👍

I've never heard better arguments before on climate change.

You guys are great representatives of both sides on this debate.

"All else being equal, we wouldn't want any temperature change, at all." Why? Was 1800 the optimum temperature for human flourishing? Is there any case to be made for that at all?

Hey, Please put out last 30 min interview about running for Governor separate KZfaq please. Seeing 2.5 hours is disincentive for listening.

Wow. Thank you.

Wonderful discussion! Can't help but point out, the Koch brothers betrayal of Murray Rothbard shows exactly how libertarian they are.

My Bubbie Sadie used to sing “Que Sera, Sera” to me. I remember the Hitchcock film, The Man Who Knew Too Much, and the Doris Day song fondly but I didn’t pay much attention to the lyrics. Sadie died 40 years ago. I miss her so much. It was so comforting, snuggling in her lap while she sang to me. What will today’s future grandmas or bubbies be singing to their future grandchildren?

Brilliant video. Fantastic educational value. Tremendous chance to live and learn. Cheers 😮

Love Shellenberger, his books, Apocalypse Never and San-Fransicko are wonderful and well researched.

Feisty. I appreciate that you let Shellenberger remonstrate while yourself remaining steadfast in your questioning.

The book has received positive reviews and coverage from conservative and libertarian news outlets and organizations,

Very interesting discussion. What I think is missed in this discussion is that most people serious about dealing with climate change understand that it is the large Industrialized countries that need to limit their greenhouse gasses etc. It was the oil companies that stopped us from putting specific limits on our emissions because they pushed the talking points through ads and lobbyists that it would be unfair to us if the undeveloped countries didn't have to do it to and it would hurt our economy too much (LOL.) But we could be curbing climate change better and limiting the impact Industrialized countries have on climate change while still letting developing countries industrialize.

2:07:23 "of course I've seen it all" wow!

I enjoy this debate, but I have seen solar panels over parking lots which produces power from an existing use, while simultaneously providing shade for the vehicles in the summer months.

We have been about for Millennia. The only people worried about wind,water and weather are the ones living on the second floor of a house of cards....the rest already adjust daily because "that's life".

Michael is PISSED in this interview. Daaaaaaaamn. I've never seen him this spicy.

A true delight to listen to.

Surely, a very significant feature of supporting Ukraine is to stall / prevent restructuring of another USSR. Ask all the former USSR countries and others that avoided such then, and most certainly want that 'off the cards' for their future.

These are the best convos👌

Equating people who have mental illnesses with gun toting mass murderers is wrong. The millions of people with mental health issues do not murder anyone. Get rid of the assault rifles and close loopholes. We know for a fact this will save lives.

Mekong Delta vulnerability has been enhanced by extensive dams in the upper Mekong Delta. Deltas live by having enough sediment to overcome sea level rise globally and deltaic subsidence locally. The reduction in sediment due to dams is problematic. Also, the legacy of delta destruction done during the Vietnam War. The impact of massive herbicides on the floral composition, especially plants more essential to retaining sediment and enhancing delta stability. I don't know if this has studied enough, though I stand to be corrected.

How about instead of throwing your plastic in the regular garbage, we require a plastics recycling plant in every county in the country? Use of plastic products leads to ingestion and/or inhalation of large amounts of both microplastic particles and hundreds of toxic substances with known or suspected carcinogenic, developmental, or endocrine-disrupting impacts. Is Shellenberger saying that if we put it in a landfill, that serious health risk goes away?

Thank you. Discoursing is necessary.

The Hard Questions concern Culture. I'm always interested in what quality and kind of growth people refer to. Under certain constraints how do we define growth? Also, what does one mean by Rich?

This is about wounded ego. Vanity and Politics. Who'd have thought?

What really bothers me is those who continue to cash in on economic growth are given deference concerning how much environmental damage everyone else should tolerate.

It is very obvious that Kraus as he admits himself i very new to the issue of climate change. His points are kind of sophomore points where one thing that pointing out a problem is proving some amazing point, not taking 2nd and 3rd order effects into account. Shellenberger is great as always. A great respectful discussion.

A more important aspect is energy blindess with regards to the power house of the Diesel engine and crude. Without that, nothing gets built. So unless there is a protection and rationing of crude stores, i dont care if i have rebuildable solar and wind, nor nuclear.

Does Mr Krauss know about Thorium or LFTR reactors?

What is Michael talking about on the London Underground?

One of the best episodes I've seen so far. So informative. About the nuclear power I already knew. I've been pro nuclear for some 30 years. Hydro and nuclear are the only two sensible alternatives in the long run. Living off grid of course private solar- and wind power make sense.

Shellenberger seems to have anaive view of the potential for human altruism.

How is this guy a physicist and not know so much of the basic physics of energy?

Is that Captain Kirk in the background behind Laurence?

Talking about background: who is standing there behind Dr. Kraus??

Michael Shellenberger telling Lawrence Krauss "NO, NO, THIS IS BASIC PHYSICS" as if Lawrence Krauss doesnt know basic physics.

It is a bit cynical to say, "Well then people in South Vietnam can move to North Vietnam". There was a war between the two only fifty years ago, and the tensions are very real. In fact, this dynamic is present in many areas in the world. Some climate analysts predict that climate change will have some of its worst affects in parts of the world where tribal and ethnic tensions are highest. Christian Parenti's book "Tropic of Chaos" explains that climate related droughts often bring famine to already war-torn nations, thereby exacerbating the violence and misery people are experiencing. I do think Michael might be viewing the issue of mass migration and refugee flow through rose colored glasses. I'm sure Michael would have a rebuttal to this, but I thought it was worth noting.

It's not a militia, it's a free-for-all. Start with well-regulated. A gun is just a club without munitions. Regulate the availability and possession of ammunition. Nothing to do with the 2nd amendment

I’ve never experienced so many ads inserted into a KZfaq video before. I guess funding for the Origins project is a bit anemic these days? Or is that no longer a thing?

I have a concern that all wealthy countries have lower birth rates but larger and larger immigration to increase the population to keep driving growth. So what happens when all countries are developed?

Planetary boundaries literature says #1 is declining biodiversity.

170,000 Tera watts of energy hits the earth every day, I’m not an engineer but can’t someone sort out how to use that ?

9:50 "No one's reported back from the dead and told us that there's an afterlife." NDE's anyone.

I agree largly with this guy but why build a new coal fire power station in inda? African jumped past telephone wires and poles and jumped straight to smart phones. Industrialise yes but adopt the newer greener (not green) technologies. Coal and gas are both more expensive than re storage is the prime issue here so that needs to be our infrastructure focus.

Berkeley is fine screw the rest. What an attitude…

if climate change is going to be causing poverty what caused it 100 years ago? isn't global poverty at one of the lowest levels its been? IT seems like a lot of banking on the environment getting worse when the data doesn't really support that.

Hey Walmart… can we start an adopt a child program where we get to sponsor one of the little dudes that’s are mining the ore we need for our phone batteries. I wanna contribute to 2 of those little dudes

So the drought in California and almost the entire SW - how will that impact food production? And the rationing of water? Does that limit population growth?

"Dairydaw" ... don't you love that subtitling software?

Poor Dr Krauss. He tried soooo hard over and over to trap Schellenberger. Mostly when Dr Krauss wasnt tongue tied, he was busy interrupting. I feel like Dr Krauss once witnessed a serious discussion, at least he thinks he did, and so feels like he can participate in one. Alas, not quiet. And let's have some specific criticisms to what Shellenberger has presented. The comments I've read as extremely qualitative and appear to reflect that the writers are largely unfamiliar with the issues MS eloquently presents. Wait! I have an idea. Read his book. This is my first exposure to Dr Krauss and his podcast. I'm hoping it will be my last.

Krauss is a weak interviewer. He’s so concerned about stirring up or defending his own beliefs. Shellenberger is trying to be transparent. Krauss is tip toeing around!

There's not enough Uranium to meet demand.

shellenberger: “I love humanity, I love humankind” also shellenberger: “I don’t cry for people who lose their small farms to migrate into sweatshops and industrial parks in cities.” Shellenberger is the type of “naturalist” that want to empty indigenous of their native lands. He argues that villagers are financially better off working in city factories while not accounting for the cost disparity btw village life vs city life. Worst, while he confidently cite evident of for prosperity of the last 150 years he fail to account for how robots are already displacing factory workers in places like Vietnam.

The climate is just fine ☺

I’ve read one of Shellenberger’s books and listened to a number of his talks. As a liberal I’m convinced he’s doing God’s work. However, he would convince more of my tribe and perhaps reach a critical mass of opinion if he would spend less time denigrating liberals on MAGA shows.

This is great until 2.23 when they both agree that emissions have peaked and that this is an achievement. But the logical fallacy is apparent. The emissions have peaked because Western governments are enacting the very policies that Shellenberger is arguing against. He seems to be having it both ways. I am with him up to this point, but I have no idea why he suddenly says that the consequences of the stupid policies - and they are stupid - that he is arguing against, are an achievement.

Why have you removed my first comment?

Is it lousy governance that inhibits economic development?

It is difficult to deal with ignorant critics.

Given the choice between Schellenberger's truth and the UN's lies, I choose truth. Many don't. Many prefer lies. I understand the grifters who love the money-making benefits, but why are so many others falling for this?

This is exactly why we need to protect freedom of speech

Why isn’t Plymouth Rock not under water after 400 years?

wind and sun make its energi when we don't use the less energy and only 30% of the time in a year over lifecycle years 9% under the time we use most of ur energy over its lifecycle so you need 91% of outer energy sources if you want energy 24/7 to cover a 600MW nuclear plant with wind you need to install 6000MW so to say thats a area of 3 184 km²

As well educated Krauss is in theoretical physics he is very uneducated in the field of applied energy.

Lawrence, you say you have left the US, smart move with their antique gun laws.

Nuclear is more expensive than other soruces of power? Shellenberger seems to ignore economics.

if you are a kid you smell how petrol exhausts make you breathing system bloody, now you are used and lagg the memory

75% of the worlds wildlife has vanished in the last 50 years and. during this time the worlds population has doubled. Some of these animals have become extinct. I would say this is mostly because of deforestation resulting in the loss of habitat. Things like DDT and other chemical pollution has also paid a part in this of course. There are an estimated 1'474 billion motor vehicles on the road world wide today. 19% of these are in America by the way. It is sad that we have lost so much, but these animals have important functions like bees for example which are a cornerstone species, but they are not the only pollinators of course. Birds carry pollen as well as seeds. You don't need a climate model to predict a catastrophe we are already in one. Its not as simple as this but if in 50 years 75% of the worlds wildlife has vanished and the worlds human population has doubled in that time then at the current rate of wildlife loss it will all be gone in 25 years and it will be just us with our livestock and our virus's left. Our children are being born on death row because of our addiction to oil and lack of respect to the planet and each other. So while we debate whether or not man made climate change is real or not the planet is dying. What a world to leave our kids and we say that we love them. Actions speak louder than words. The petrochemical industry is killing us.

They say ESG will be passable 2050. Who will be here? None of those here, unless you are a denier. Plenty of deniers.

It took Michael A LONG TIME to figure out the left. A long time......

You want to discuss magnetics 2° jews thippeny bits. Need a socket set knuckle head bolt. Eye titanic pop rivots double decker. Tiger. Winks

Lost me on the farm issue.Losing family farms started the American downfall.Along with women's lib.

I can't stand people like Shellenberger,who can't have a good conversation without constantly interrupting and raising his voice. An intelligent and emotionally mature person can have a conversation,or even a debate, without getting upset and interrupting and raising their voice. That's childish. And it's an attempt to strong-arm the other person and force your opinion on them by force of voice alone. Every good conversation or debate has the participants politely sharing their ideas and opinions with one another,and then explaining why you do or do not agree with one another. At no timr,is there a valid reason for raising your voice,interrupting,and shouting over the other person, just because you don't agree with what they are saying. You let them speak,and then you offer a rebuttal,afterward. This Shellenberger guy is a perfect example of how politics prevents things from getting done. It's this tendency to argue instead of consider.

This guy has a Masters degree in anthropology, and he lives in Berkeley. With those credentials, how can anyone doubt his views?

I swear Lawrence turned into a Don Quixote physicist.

Both on the beam! Thanks much guys.