Amazing, isn't it?

It's kind of like "real" mythology in that way.

@@gagaplex Yes. Actually it is. Good point.

That's one of the main attractions of the legendarium. As Tolkien himself said, it's a feigned history. There may be narrative differences. And most that history is lost.

Maybe the Last Balrog is the friends we made along the way.

You ain't wrong.

@@GetsugaTensho85 Or maybe the Last Balrog is a part of all of us

"The Last Balrog" now thats a cool title for a film, after all .... #Balroglivesmatters

There’s a tiny Balrog in all of us.

"He was erased from the movies, replaced by Arwen" I know you don't mean it like that but Aragorn in love with Glorfindel would have been something...

At least Glorfindel got some spotlight in the Battle for Middle Earth II as he was one of the two protagonists of the good guys campaign.

Erasing Glorfindel from the movies was one of Jackson's best creative decisions. Glorfindel is a one-and-done character. Moviegoers will wonder who the hell he is, and if he is so powerful, why doesn't he join the Fellowship? Both of which would require more exposition. Swapping Glorfindel with Arwen gave her a much larger presence in the films than in the books, where she is barely there, as well as much needed female representation in a narrative overwhelmingly dominated by dudes.

@@squamish4244If you need someone who shares an immutable characteristic with you to be in a story for you to relate with it, the story isn’t for you, and therefore should not be changed to suit your whims in the first place. Plenty of women loved LotR without the need of such pandering.

​@@samaritan_sys Movies aren't novels. What works in one doesn't work in the either. Having Arwen save Frodo helps the Aragorn/Arwen romance when Glorfindel doesn't show up ever again

I personally favor this as well. Seven/eight seems to be far too few

I like the idea someone here gave, that there are 7 OP Balrogs being lead by Gothmog and plenty lesser Balrogs that are much weaker. It combines both Tolkien's views on this matter.

A few dozen seems about right to me as well. Enough of them to lose a couple here or there over thousands of years and yet still have a handful dozing in the bones of the earth at the end of the third age, yet few enough that they were each powerful and significant enough to be generals of Morgoth's armies.

Is it really a retcon if he never published it in the first place? I don't think so.

I gotta go with a few dozen too. Numerous enough to help keep the Siege of Angband going, but rare and powerful enough that it preserves the achievements of the only three to solo one.

Bruh dont give RoP any more ideas lol ...m though that could be an epic scene.

I don’t think so, I mean maybe but Sauron was never privy to combat, I’m sure he could beat one but it would not be an easy task even for him; being the best in the land at deception and manipulation, I think he would likely find another way to handle it.

@@hjfs8906 Sauron got his butt kicked by a wolfhound in the first age, he'd definitely be no match in physical combat for a Balrog.

NoMe revealed that when Sauron tried to recruit some of Morgoth's original Orcs in the east, they laughed at him. He might've had a similar experience with some of Morgoth's other servants.

@@meekrab9027 that was the hound of the valar you fool.

If we take the case that there were 7 of them, I'm inclined to think Durin's bane and one or two more escaped and hid further east or south. Though I'm interested if, since they're beings of sin in a way, they were too prideful to run and hide and thus fought till the end.

Gandalf's job was to keep them all together and keep moral up. To completely lose his shit at the sight of the bulrog would have run counter to that.

Just like all the others, goblins included, they each had their own reaction. Gandalf was like, oh crap how do I explain this thing to them. Legolas was placing a childhood nightmare in the front of his mind, Gimli probably recognized it from stories as well. The Hobbits would simply have thought, of great instead of walking we are now running, this means no more supper for ages...

@@nervachadikus one dies in the shadow or war game I'm pretty sure.

@@zspursandpubg3708 not cannon

Except that the 5 wizards only came to Middle Earth about 1000 years into the Third Age, after the balrogs were gone (except Durin's Bane, presumedly). But I agree as both the wizards and the balrogs were originall maiar, then they would have been at about the same power, comparitively speaking.

Did they also know there was a dragon still around as well?

Yeah but it's always way cooler to have villains be overpowered compared to heroes so based on the context of their presence in the war of wrath I'd put them at around 20+ in number.

The Misty Mountains were raised by Morgoth in the Years of the Trees, and Caradhras was particularly malevolent - must've been a nice place for a Balrog to nap under!

I believe your take about Utomno is the same RoP will do, a Balrog hidden in Morgoth's first fortress.

I really don't think so. I mean (writing this tongue in cheek somewhat) if they ever watched a crime movie they must have known that the first place where the cops start looking for fugitves is at their or their parents', relatives' and friends' homes. Jokes aside, I really don't think it would have been smart trying to hide there. That's as if the Nazgul had tried to hide in the ruins of Barad-Dur.

@Imperial Soviet didnt they sink with Beleriland?

@@aidenharper6013 No, Udun was far to the East. Angband was the lesser fortress to watch for movement of the Valar and the Misty Mountains were the walls to slow them down. Udun was closer to the inland sea where the Elves awoke. It was destroyed prior to the Elves moving West in a great war that little is known about because only the Valar took part.

Dagor Dagorath easter eggs

"Giants there were in those days, heroes of old" - paraphrasing Genesis 6, and 1 Enoch 1-36

Why would Gandalf leave Middle Earth with Balrogs still about and being the only Super-Beings left?

​@@joshdawson5850 To be fair, Durin's Bane was happy to just hide and be passive until "the dwarves dug too greedily and too deep".

Not all the lands, Morgoths first place was Utumno, which is way up in the frozen north of Middle Earth, that still exists and didn't sink.

They don't have to breathe, Melkor survives the great void.

@@rezarfar it was probably way further North even past forodwaith or near the ice bay of forochel

@@rezarfar Utumno was obliterated by the Valar.

@@concept5631 no it didn't, it wasn't completely destroyed by the Valar.

I like this idea!

This is somewhat similar to Lord of the Rings Online's interpretation. There are Balrogs, but there are lesser demons known as Rogmul. I also haven't delved into it too much, but there's a theory floating around that what Glorfindel fought wasn't actually a Balrog, but a lesser demon.

I headcanon the lesser Balrogs as just being the Boldogs that Tolkien wrote about (really he just wrote one paragraph) in the later legendarium.

@@DarthGandalfYT Fingolfin wounded Morgoth severely, so why wouldn't Glorfindel be able to kill a Balrog?

@@TrangDB9 I don't think he's saying that he couldn't kill a Balrog, but perhaps he mistook one of the lesser demon for one.

Morinehtar

That is another possibility, maybe a sequel in a long distant future?

Considering that elven steel could kill them, Gandalf could have been sure that it wouldn't wake up until people were strong enough to defeat them on their own. Could a balrog survive getting hit by a 120mm tank round?

There's also Shelob.

​@@anlumo1 Shelob was a child of Ungoliant. And Ungoliant was not a Maiar. In fact, she was so powerful she could threaten the strongest of the Valars - Melkor.

In my headcanon Morgoth, being what he is, also abuses his weaker Maiar servants, using their spirits in his twisted creations. So does Sauron with the evil spirits embodied in his werewolves. No true evidence but Glaurung and the Dragons could be Maiar too. Luthien bullies Sauron by threatening to send his naked spirit back to Morgoth, maybe lesser Maiar were not allowed to have a physical form in case of future need. Fascinating tangent

Some may say that even enhance it, since it gives more credibility to his mythology as "history that is passed upon generations", just like our own histories and mythologies.

Yes true

So far - an underrated comment. I was one of those Balrogs, and yes we were terribly loud and unruly, but it was only to drown out our own fears and insecurities. Most have calmed down considerably these days. I teach 2nd grade and only rampage and cause bloody mayhem of a weekend.

@@whynottalklikeapirat Glad to hear you have given up the ways of Morgoth, and became a public servant of the secret fire as a teacher! Although don’t take Gandalf’s “YOU SHALL NOT PASS” to heart too much, for those poor kids’ sake. And don’t worry…we all let the dark fire avail us on the weekends 😄

@@masamune2984 The thing that Gandalf tended to miss in terms of what we should or shouldn’t do was you can’t just use a wand to get from an “is” to an “ought”. At best that kind of spectacle will get you from an “is” to an “orc” really quickly in the deep dark places of the earth. But yes - a public servant of the secret fire 📞👹 🖥 You know - in spite of everything - it really still does continue to avail me.

I mean he explains that in the video that it could or not could not be true depending on your interpretation of how Tolkien changed his perspective on the Balrogs in comparison on when his writings took place. I would like to believe there are a few out there that are either still slumbering or have been wiped out on the later years further with the age of man

​@@CimmerianAssassin I would like to presume they are still out there because unlike Sauron, who is also a Maiar, the Balrogs did not extended their life force to something external like the Ring. They need to be physically killed like Gothmog and Durin's Bane. Even if they die, their spirit will linger stronger than Sauron and may reincarnate because of the prophecy of Dagor Dagorath. But that's just my take.

Or human geologists...

Well, this further cement by the fact the King of Lorien, Amroth leaves middle earth, leaving Celeborn and Galadriel in charge, after the awakening of the balrog!

Well you're gonna have to brother

Because Gospel is supposed to be true lol? I know you didn’t make this saying but Gospel truth as in Gospel is supposed to be absolutely true is one of the most stupid concept I have ever heard of. Other than I completely agree with what you say and that the elves aren’t 100% reliable with their lore telling.

Maybe there was a forgotten breed of troll in the Elder Days, the ‘fire troll’, and they were mistaken by the Elves as Balrogs? Akin to the stone trolls, the fire troll could have been a troll that lived in magma, not just ordinary stone.

Exactly what I wanted to say. I dont believe that there are 1000+, that seems a bit silly, but to say that maybe...a hundred? More or less? Or even some tens, maybe an amount around 50 or 60? I feel like that many is much more believable. Calling Gothmog "Lord of Balrogs" would make it seem like there would be enough of them to make up a small community of which to be Lord over. Perhaps not thousands, certainly not, but a hundred or more VERY powerful creatures I feel would make a sizeable community or "kingdom." Melkor convincing a few groups of maiar to join his side seems easy enough, especially when he has so many groups to pull from. Going around all the valar (14 of them?), he would really only need like 2 or 3 from each valars service to make up 50 or 60 balrogs. Bring that up to 8 or 9 from each valar and he's already over 100. It's a bit fanciful, yes, but perhaps those who are said to have slain "several" balrogs at a time DID do so, but were only able to because the balrogs in this specific case were particularly weak maiar. Theres no reason to believe ALL maiar are as skilled or powerful at holding a physical form and making use of it as, say, Gandalf or Sauron were. But its all just speculation anyways, and Tolkien would've certainly encouraged good speculation from his work.

@@hamzapetridis206 It's a figure of speech. To religious people it is THE truth and is untouchable, hence the saying. No need to overthink it.

It was a little funny. For whatever reason the Balrog wouldn't leave Moria. If it wasn't killed by Gandalf would it have led an attack against Lorien a few weeks later? Of course it didn't intervene during the battle of the Orcs and Dwarves that happened right outside of Moria. It was standing just inside the gate according to Dain. Maybe it was there to keep the Orcs from fleeing?;Personally, always felt it was in league with Sauron, that they were waiting for the right moment for the Balrog to show itself openly. Do think that the Balrog considered Moria as it's fiefdom.

Here's one piece of evidence. Orcs and Trolls aren't native to Moria. They migrated to Moria after the Balrog chased the Dwarves out. Clearly Sauron would've wanted to know what had happened there. There would've been contact and as they have the same enemies, cooperation on some level. Not sure how informed the Balrog would be of Saurons plans. The Balrog had no plan as far as we can see beyond sitting in Moria till the end of time. In the case of an intrusion it might or not be bothered to respond to it. Did it give Balin and his colony a few years of success in the hopes that it would draw in more colonists or was it just lazy? Maybe it was a lesser problem for lesser creatures like the orcs? It's implied that it did get involved at the final stage of the colonies destruction.

I've always wondered what would have happened if Frodo had been killed in Moria and the Balrog had managed to capture the ring. Being an ancient and evil being who was at least a semi peer to Saurons power level it's not like Sauron could force it to give the ring up to him.

As far as I'm aware, the Orcs in Moria had been there for hundreds of years. I don't believe any forces were sent there just before the Fellowship arrived. Happy to be proven wrong if you've got a quote handy.

@@DarthGandalfYT In the chapter Lothlorien, about halfway through, Haldir says "But now we must debate no longer. Your folk must not remain on the ground. We have been keeping watch on the rivers, ever since we saw a great troop of Orcs going north towards Moria, along the skirts of the mountains, many days ago. Wolves are howling on the wood's borders. If you have indeed come from Moria, the peril cannot be far behind." I've never understood if that was just a regular shipment of reinforcements from Dol Guldur or if they were specifically sent to find the Fellowship.

That was a movie invention so it's entirely possible that was what Jackson had in mind.

Khazadum became very rich with mithril mining so I do hope we see them awaken durins bane at some point in the series 😀

By Udun I’m assuming you’re referring to Utumno. If thats the case the best two bets would be the two surviving portions of the Iron Mountains which were created to border Melkor’s kingdom. Those would be either the Mountains of Angmar, reaching out west from Mount Gundabad, or the Iron Hills, which lie far east of Erebor. Given the fact that from Angmar the Witch King rose and drew power, along with its close proximity to Gundabad which is teeming with Orcs, I’d say thats the better bet. That being said the Iron Hills are also heavily colonised by Dwarves and they do have a history of picking the wrong mountains so may have just not dug too greedily and too deep there yet

Somehow this brings chills down my spine. I think you're right.

So you're saying that the last balrog looked like Boris Johnson?

Seems reasonable. I doubt there's more than one unaccounted for. Though is there anything to stop "slain" Balrogs making themselves new bodies?

@@alanpennie8013 curious. Sauron gave up his corporeal form in Numenor, and reconstituted back home-Mordor, also gave up his body at the war of the last alliance. When Gandalf died, he reconstituted in Valinor. If this is a requirement, then the slain balrogs would have not been allowed to leave? by why the exception for Sauron?

Possibly not. Sauron seems to have been an exception due to his power and due to the One Ring.

Christopher Tolkien edited his father's notes to be consistent. There are at least 5, at most 7.

Yeah, I think it's acceptable to follow the "rule of cool" when it comes to Balrogs.

I think in the fourth age, all beings from the previous ages would have gone in one way or the other. The elves moved west, beings like Radagast disolved into spirits unable to directly interact with mortals any longer, and I suppose the remaining balrogs and other monsters would have simply gone the the molten core of the Earth, where people would never ever have encountered them. Such is the nature of magic, it disappears in the fourth age.

They might not be. Durin's Bane wasn't completely inert, but it wasn't all that ert either.

I imagine certain places would be seen as cursed, or off-limits. Just like the Morgul Vale after Sauron's defeat. Even when Durin's Bane was killed and Aragorn was crowned, the Dwarves still wouldn't dare to settle down permanently in Khazad Dum. So if a stray remaining Balrog is minding its own business in some deep underground cavern, it's on you if you let it loose or piss it off by digging down too deep.

I like it, thats another good theory on this matter!

Morgoth defeated the Valar in the destruction of the Two Lamps and they withdrew to Aman. Perhaps you are thinking of the War for the Sake of the Elves?

@@istari0 I’m referring to Tolkiens early notes on pre elven wars.

Take a look at how Tolkien describes Sauron in the Valaquenta. He's not a balrog.

It's not the last one. In the most recent version of the Silmarillion...a few escaped after the fall of Morgoth. Hence...there is at least 1 left.

I assume that Balrogs (and Dragons too) still saw themselves as servants of Morgoth, and did not wish to submit to one of his underlings. There's a cool quote from NoMe which states that many of Morgoth's first Orcs, who were still operating in the east, initially rejected Sauron when he tried to recruit them.

@@DarthGandalfYT Poor Sauron. Scorned by mere orcs.