W

can someone answer me something about this whole video? like tell me this, is this a habit for people to cheat, or if people cheat once in their life on purpose, they can learn what it's like being caught red handed? like is that another reason why people cheat? is it possible that kosmic cheated once in his life before being the greatest mario speed runner of all time?

Ok karl

Well my skin is fine :)

The sponsorship wasn't related to gaming, although the offer does sound interesting ngl

trueee

That's literally what a TAS is. He could have been a well-respected TASer but instead chose to submit his fake runs as real. But TASers aren't nearly as famous as top runners. The reason he cheated was for attention and because he thought he could get away with it if he was careful enough.

@@hottoast16 I won't lie, I would be interested in a separate category for TAS that didn't allow for the exact input mapping or whatever it is called. Basically you have to actually play the game, but can cheat in pretty much every other way. Would be interesting to see how the cheats evolve while also hopefully keeping the majority of the cheats developed in the public view so it is easier to spot them in normal runs.

Time travel % is done in literally one second.

@@Chillz_OG I would watch that

they catch each other because they recognize the cheats lol

You have to become one to catch the another.

i put this dudes wr speedrun inputs into a tas and guess what??? it didnt get near the time . strange that

@@ericandruszko7563 honestly he should have just become a moderator if hes this good at detecting cheats

No it's worse. It would b like 3 SEPARATE ppl impersonating spiderman pointing at each other 🙄

he knew because he use it XD

The community stans the big fish and crush the smallers.

I just want to see the armies of dream supporters get their fingers out to defend monecravenger ;)

That’s why tas exist

@@livanbard I don't think there's a snowballs chance in hel that Minecravenger or any other minecraft cheater is going to get the same level of backlash as Dream. People acted like Dream killed a man.

Reminds me of election data experts

yes and no. I mean after watching cheaters and knowing how they play you can sometimes spot it. but its rare

Dream helped catch drem and then this bruh what ia this jenga tower of cheaters

@@_aWiseMan a wise man once said "what is this jenga tower of cheaters"

judge: you are guilty of murder murderer: ha! takes one to know one

im cheating. I'm cheating. I'M CHEATING! At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if someone was cheating and slowing increased their risk factor just to see how long it took to get caught. That would be an entertaining video in its own right.

@@BobSentell there WAS something like that. A Ghost 'n Goblins run was submitted and it was super fake on purpose, but nobody batted an eye until the guy had to state that himself. He got banned even though it was entirely the mods' fault for accepting a submission without checking it.

@@anothenblue2630 Do you have a link to this? Sounds super funny.

@@anothenblue2630 It's not the mods fault that someone decided to be unfair. But yes, the mods incompetence shouldn't go unnoticed either

@@CricetoFunni It's called "My OBVIOUS Fake Speedrun that got Verified" by Loan Shark Joe

it was also quickly covered up by the flint&steel name showing up, so you'd have to have had a vendetta against Minecravenger, tabbing through their speedruns frame by frame to spot it, really...

I mean, it's literally like magic. The goal is to hide things that are going on from you, or make you believe something different from than what really happened, and the way you do this is to hide your tricks in ways you're not likely to pay attention to.

Why are you watching a minecraft cheating video if you don't even play the game 💀

@@zartexkrontaculys1097 you do realise that this channel covers a bunch of topics related to speedrunning, not just Minecraft right?

@@hannessteffenhagen61 no I didn't realize that why, oh. Ohhh...

He already made that video

you can search up for runs like big tony and drem did but most of faked speedruns videos are clickbait nowadays

@@jojoversus1100 well make it again

lmao I hate cheaters but this lowkey makes me wanna test how long it would take ppl to notice if I was cheating (not gonna but i am curious)

unfortunately most of the cheated runs you find are clickbait or obvious jokes so it's hard to find the serious ones

Dolphins AI turns off when the player gets far enough away. I don’t know if that is relevant, by just a weird fact

@@OR56 there's nothing weird about it, most games do that to save resources by disabling/hiding something that player can't see anyway.

@@hardVatsuki It kills them though. They stop moving, even while they are still in render distance, and drown.

@@OR56 ....well now i think I know what happens to my pet dolphins each time I leave my base.

@@neoqwerty You can put them in a tank with soul sand on the bottom, and if it has glass over it, it won't throw them out, and they will still be able to breathe.

I think it's because most cheaters are narcissists & most narcissists find it nearly impossible to admit to wrongdoing unless they've already gotten away with it & are bragging because no one caught them.

@@D_YellowMadness Do you guys even know what a "narcissist" is? I know the internet hastily throws around that word, but still.

What interest would a cheater have in 'helping the community'? If they had any desire to improve the community they wouldfn't do the exact opposite by submitting cheated runs and lying to the community to begin with.

@@arstulex Like I said, it seems like the obvious move from a selfish perspective too, because it saves them a ton of face.

@@Judgement_Kazzy You clearly don’t understand cheaters at all. They cheat without getting caught and they earn a good reputation. Someone catches them and their reputation is jeopardized, they want to keep their fame and reputation so they double down on it. You also seem to be confused and think that someone calling them out with good evidence means it’s all over for them anyways. Lmao, have you never seen other videos on this channel? People still believe cheaters even after getting “caught”. And the fact that they can get away with it by “doubling down” is exactly why they do it. That’s why the only “nail” in the coffin in these cases is that someone comes out and says “yep, I cheated”. Pretty sure some Golden Eye or Doom speedrunners swayed the community for so long until they admit it because even after cheating, they still had some WRs that weren’t disproven yet until after they’ve admitted it.

Exactly. That´s basically why it seems inevitable that a "competitive patch" will be necessary that checks for modified values. He did mention it at the end of the video.

I’ll never understand why people cheat at anything. The whole point of winning is to accomplish something and trying to be the best at what you do. I guess when you grow up with “everyone gets a trophy” it means nothing anyway. I can’t believe how many losers there are out there.

@@reagandow850 people who cheat want the feeling of accomplishing something. They wanna feel like "wow i have a world record in a game ran by hundreds of top class players". Its the fame that gets in their heads

@@reagandow850 money

Well lucky it's just Minecraft

He is sorry about getting caught, definitely didn't come clean until all the evidence was placed against him. He also still profited tons from all of the attention and views he got over the years. But being up front and admitting it is better than what most do..

@@zicorbett4660 of course he's sorry about being caught

An actual strong guilt conscience of a good person would lead them to turn themselves in during the 2-3 years of cheating, this was only in damage control mode after being caught and he literally lied again after being caught and confronted before finally admitting what was already known… no praise for that at all, praise the cheaters with an actual good guilty conscience where the guilt starts eating at them and they turn themselves in before any suspicions or confrontations are raised, which is very rare. Apologizing only after the fact(and after trying to double down upon first confrontation) is self-preservation and damage control and being sorry they were caught

people are just gonna challenge themselves to get into the leaderboards by straight up not cheating

Can you imagine the scandal if the manipulated record was taken by someone who didn't actually manipulate anything?

​@@nihilvoxIt wasn't code manipulation, it was social manipulation! Fooled you all!

@@memiix they'd have to admit how they cheated at the end or they cant be put up

@@enccy3410 they cheated by... not cheating i guess?

Would it be possible to do the same for Minecraft? Build a custom version of each patch category that disallows modding or checks for any file alteration?

@@JimKirk1 it’s hard as the jar files can be edited

I think it needs to be said that MineCravenger fully confessed at this point and it's equally safe to say Riolu will NEVER confess!

I'm still kind of amazed that Riolu chose to end a _decade-long elite level career_ rather than just own up to cheating.

For the record, there's a mod in development for minecraft that provides an audit of all the random rolls in the game. I assume this includes seeds, and if it does, it pretty much eliminates all the possibility of cheating. The world record managers could just auto reject any runs without this mod if they want to be super strict. Edit: lol he mentioned it later sorry

Instead of glitch Hunter it’s cheat Hunter

This is something I have actually thought about doing. Can I find ways to "Cheat" and then report my findings (helping to expand detection). I just question if I have time to do stuff like this

So you mean cybersecurity flaw detection but for Minecraft Speedrunning?

@@Ange1ofD4rkness I mean these mods have time to moderate. Somebody will have time for this. They research this stuff more than I ever would

Pen testing for speed running!

Now we investigate everybody involved in investigating minecravenger

As it was, that one was revealed to be an issue of Google Drive changing files' creation times to the same time but PST, which confused people because both the runner accused and Dream live in EST.

Wasthat an accusation? Didn't Dream just bring something to the moderators attention

@@edschelchang6123 refer to my comment/reply earlier in the chain for the context about what happened.

​@@serbianspaceforce6873and then burn the ashes

Yeah at least he admited and was ready to face the consequences, that's more than many other cheaters can say.

He may be a cheater but at least he still has some pride leftover

​@@mitri4939you people confuse saving face with being sorry...

Right? A few of these where they catch it because of some poor editing and I am thinking "wait they could have done it this way". And I am only mediocre at video editing

clearly you have a prosperous future in minecraft speedrun cheating

Any cheat that relies on advanced After Effects knowledge could probably fool most people into not investigating, but yeah experts won't be fooled. Similarly it probably won't do much once clips are automatically subjected to waveform and video analysis (and maybe even AI checks for aberrations between one submission and most others which could catch somebody like Schmooey). It'll be interesting to see how speedrunning changes once the tech catches up.

probly people are insanely mentally ill now

Why not upload a cheat run and do a break down on how its a cheat run and things to look out for when looking for cheat runs.

I agree! One, that sounds entertaining to watch, and two, it's a good outlet for cheating. There could also be a reduced RNG category where loot and dragon behaviors are made more consistent through a community chosen resource pack. I would never try speed running minecraft now because of all the RNG on top of the high skill ceiling, but something like this would help.

It also lets people get better at finding cheats

@@supercyclone8342 That already exists - there's a datapack that removes almost all RNG (drop rates, dragon perch, mobs) which people do runs using.

So basically penn & teller "fool us" but for speedruns?

@@Laezar1 exactly

That wouldn't work; even someone with little programming experience can create a copy of the mod that will always return new chunks; You just simply remove most of the code and make the check pass each time

I didn’t suspect anything until you brought it up, but now that you mention it, the dragon kill with the SDMG was a little peculiar

That explains the copper shortsword actually

So that's why he had a cobalt shield

Explains the Last Prism he was using.

@@1th_to_comment. explains why he had accessory slots in the first place

That scene in The Matrix.

Nah, he used those already, remember?

The more cheating methods you use at once, the more subtle each one can be.

idk minecraft speedruns take a lot of skill but fuck there's so much RNG, right? most of the cheats he used were to improve things that are controlled by RNG. and i think if the dude actually sucked at runs people would have been suspicious way earlier

if he was bad at the game his cheating wouldn't have been so subtle

@@GammaJK Yeah, that's an interesting idea. There's probably people who deserve to be way higher on the Minecraft leader boards, but just aren't because of bad RNG. And there's certainly people who shouldn't be as high as they are on the leader boards, but good RNG just put them there. significantly increasing the luck so players can just mostly test their skill if they so choose is a good solution. Either that, or you may just have to find a new game to speed run that's not so luck dependent.

@@GammaJK This is why I like set seed runs

Good point lol

..yes never getting caught is indeed a prerequisite to not being seen as a cheater.

Basically, just because they're valid excuses doesn't mean they're acceptable.

They're not excuses, they're reasons, like you said. Cheating was easy and fun, so he did it. Can't rely on peoples moral sense, so you gotta make cheating harder and less fun in a competitive environment.

Huh. Interesting. I would of figured that sibling rivalry would of played a part in his reasons for cheating.

@@SpedyFoxIV I suspect it probably was a reason, but he wouldn't admit it since it might strain his relationship with his brother depending on how things are between them after this whole thing. Just my thought.

​@@PlayerofGamesx I'm guessing they meant that the new restrictions might affect legitimate playthroughs

Sucks that people are so damn prone to the guilt by association fallacy.

Not in anyone's eyes whose opinions are worth a damn.

That's just the average person being stupid.

"skandal"

@@NomDatBass it's reasonable to question if someone whose very close to a cheater, and is speedrunning the same game as a cheater, might be using the same tricks/tools the cheater did. Or even if they just knew anything but kept quiet. MineCravenger didn't come forward about anything until people got hard evidence against him. So if NiceTwice isn't thoroughly investigated and cleared, he could also just...not be coming forward and hoping his own cheating goes under the radar. Do I think he did cheat? No, but again it's a reasonable question to ask and one that's going to stick around unless he gets officially cleared.

No no don't scrutinize my older runs. They were legit I promise.

I would watch a cheat%

Cheat% does sound like a fun thing to watch. I would be very curious at how quickly a Cheat% All Achievements Run goes.

I'd love to see different types of cheaters use different techniques to climb the ladder or show crazy game breaking runs, TAS or not!

That's makes a lot of sense. Good point, I agree.

the moderators on the leaderboards are unpaid volunteers, how and why should they pay cheaters?

@@giulioceresini1435 They could just, you know, ask them for help. And the why is quite literally in the post, dunno how you missed it.

True, plus he figured our dream was cheating

Seems like the only way to make sure is to somehow have something like Doom's demo files for every game and not accept video evidence, but even that requires expert analysis sometimes.

Right I have started to get into watching these more and more, thanks to Karl, but at the same time go "wow that was amazing, but I hope it was legit"

That was part of his goal for revealing those cheats. He got caught, so now he's trying to spread doubt and invalidate the community itself as he's on his way out.

@@ForeverLaxx thats ignorant. Cheating is much more rampent then anyone wants to accept. On twitch/gameplay videos and speedrunning.

@@Pes._ What's "ignorant" is your comment as it has nothing to do with what I said. Try again later.

@@ForeverLaxx yet it does. (Sad how little you care about what you say) im adressing the 2nd sentence in your comment. Stop looking for dunks or gotchas, this isnt twitter and your dad isnt coming back.

Mr Beast

Mr beast's content has only gone downhill since the squid game vid. I would say its mostly due to the fact that his content was only entertaining as he would always top his last video. Also, most of his content has moments that pull on your heart strings. It's hard to be biased towards things that make you emotionally feel something.

Graystillplays

I mean, what other video has something like 'Shocking Confession' in the title and said confession is *_actually_* shocking.

Hard enough to define what a glitch is, for the glitch and glitchless categories. Trying to define a "subtle cheating " category would be a nightmare.

@@KaylaJoyGunn believe me I know. It was just a idea this video had me thinking

@@KaylaJoyGunn Seemingly, the idea would be "If we don't find it, it's subtle enough."

The only conceivable thing I would give a cheater kudos for is if they come forward on their own before they are exposed. Do I mildly put him higher than someone like Dream who never admitted to knowingly doing it, claiming some "I forgot to turn the mods off" BS, but continuously shits on people who made videos exposing him? Sure, he's one tier above that. He's still not someone who deserves "kudos" in any way.

@@HeelBJC Not for me to judge. A cheater, yes, but did something unexpected, which is to admit more than what he was accused of. Does that make up for all the bad? No.

@@HeelBJC kudos because doing good things should be rewarded even when you have multiple bad things under your arm

Would make a cheating category even be a bad thing? honestly hard to say at this point.

Doesn't necessarily have to be live events, perhaps in future runners will have to livestream all attempts in order to make the run eligible. I think this is the future of speedrunning, as it is easy to do and makes cheating much harder.

@@IAMMARTICUS1470 Where do you live that you would think that? I have an average internet connection for my country, and I literally had ookla measure 0.00 Mbps Upload one time. Also, altered rates would still have to be detected through intense efforts by people watching the streams, while a competitive patch for the game could do it automatically, immediately and way more reliably I'm no programmer, but coding and maintaining such a patch sounds easier than checking on everyone the hard way

@@see3655 streaming in low res should be just fine in most places. But a patch could also work very well. The problem is making the patches in the first place, but once done is a very nice solution

@@IAMMARTICUS1470 This system would be exclusive to a lot of players who don't have decent internet and hardware, preventing them from playing competitively The cheat detection would still rely on nothing but visible clues that would have to be found and worked out just by watching the recording. It would rely on 3rd parties, the streaming services. People could easily just stream prerecorded videos. All those stream recordings would take stupid amounts of storage which is expensive and bad for the environment Et cetera... Sounds really flawed if you ask me, now compare that to a small sized file that anyone can install for free and that can reliably detect things like altered drop rates, like Karl mentioned in the video. The trackmania Nations Forever community has a great example for such a system.

@@see3655 bad for the environment, oh no

Yep, that's basically it, only bad (or average) cheaters get caught

No, there's just no way. Most cheaters put in zero effort at all and get caught immediately. Maybe, at the top level, there's more cheaters to be found, but it is likely not that many as a percentage, and it would pale in comparison to the hundreds and thousands of cheated runs at any level

In a practical sense cheating at this level is impractical. If cheating requires more time, effort, skill and devotion than just doing the thing properly, most will shy away from it. Obviously there's a lot of wiggle room in there, but it's unlikely such small niche communities have that many people devoted to the praise and accolades of a small group of peers.

@Damian Mielcarek ...you know that a vast majority of criminals never gets caught, right? It's the same principle.

@@puppieslovies Okay to be fair, I did not even count those who upload obviously cheated runs that get discovered immediately or in a day or two. If you count those then yeah sure, majority are stupid. I guess this is a better way to phrase my argument: For every high profile cheater like Minecraft Avenger, there are two or more that slip under the radar and are never found.

*dies in a car crash, god forbid*

they oughtta make a speedrunning patch that makes all the drops 100%

It already exist, search for pogloot

I wonder how would runs go without rng loots or trades only using the most basic non rng drop loots

Good point. The Minecraft speedrunning community seems to be pretty primitive with its proof requirements, especially considering it's one of the most popular games ever.

but that also puts a barrier on people with poor internet or not so great computers. It's essentially locking people who are too poor or are in bad situations out of the community and increasing the barrier for entry. I'm not saying its intentional or done on purpose, but it's something to consider when you make requirements like that too. I don't think someone would accept a laggy/jittery stream of a VOD. And just to cover this base, recording and livestreaming at the same time further increases the resources your PC may need.

I mean...same with Dream. Same with lots of em

"It may seem counterintuitive, but you'd be surprised at how often it's some of the best players that inevitably try to fake runs. You might think that having the *talent* to achieve the world record would make someone less susceptible to cheating, but it often works against them. Having talent tends to make people feel entitled. They feel like they deserve the world record, and when the game they play doesn't give them the luck they need, they become increasingly frustrated. On top of this, having talent and deep knowledge of a game makes you a better cheater. You know what tools to use and how to hide your edits. You understand what does or doesn't make sense, what is or isn't possible, and what's believable. ... The fact that better players make better cheaters means that arguments such as 'He's such a good player, he has no reason to cheat.' are fundamentally flawed. When [REDACTED] and [REDACTED] were exposed as frauds, this was one of the most common arguments their defenders tried to make. If anything, having a better understanding of a game makes you even more likely to cheat, which is why at the top level, proof standards are so important." - Karl Jobst in his video titled The Worst Fake Speedrun on KZfaq

i think with most cheaters who are very good at the game, it's more that they know how skilled they are but dont want to put in the time needed to get good enough luck, so that's what they manipulate. like, "im good enough to get the world record, i shouldnt have to work so hard for it"

The need for a higher score or faster time can become irrational eventually. Which isn't surprising because how many 'normal' people would play a level hundreds of times just to shave 0.1s off a time.

1, seconds count. 2, it's not just a "little bit" of a time save. Bad RNG can completely fuck over what would have been a world record run, and now because of the bad RNG, you have to try again. You have try over and over waiting for 2 separate things to align, a good world seed, and good RNG. Removing the RNG factor significantly speeds things up. Now you're only looking for a good world seed. What would take months of attempts can now be done in less than a week. It's not hard to see why people may cheat when the alternative is literally wasting months of your life. He cheated precisely because his skills were already good enough, not because he didn't feel skilled enough.

Yeah, exposing yourself that way isn't something most people have the balls to do

@@coin4898 Might not be to you, but cheating in speedrunning is a major problem. At the end of the day, its a competition, people get paid real money and can build careers through this, the fame (even if small in comparison to other competition) should go to those who deserve it.

Yeah that was my thought too. Nothing would be stopping a sufficiently informed cheater of faking the data that would be fed by this "competitive client."

Anti cheat and anti vm?

tbh it's a cat and mouse game between finding new ways to cheat and them being patched out later 😅😅😅😂

You can even accidentally do so and it stays even if you remove the mod. I know because that happened to me by accident using old Pixelmon in 1.10

He is a bad sport in every conceivable way. He was caught, and any kind of defense was hopeless anymore. I get that it looks better than denying this for eternity, and helps honest runners a bit exposing other methods (what also conveniently makes him look better), but the robbed fame/money were robbed forever. Also these guys usually retain most of their followers even (especially when they seem to come out clean, that we don't know), so at the end it is usually worth it.

First we wait for Dream to kill himself so he won't feel proud we took his suggestion

Couldn't you run a patched version of their client to spoof the anticheat checks? (Either by static changes to the executable or dynamic code injection while the program is in memory) While it could try to do sanity checking via hashes of its memory space and files, the code that performs those checks is still running on an untrusted machine where it can be invisibly replaced with some appropriate "not cheating" value. Ultimately it's a userspace program and at the mercy of the system administrator of the client machine (i.e. the cheater).

it's a world of survival. double standards is key

Agreed, I think that's how I found the channel. Bad cheats are great.

@@polygontower Paradox use what they call Checksums (don't know if they're different than error checksums) to detect modding in their games like Crusader Kings. Mods are allowed (I heavily use mods with a lot of easy to mod games), but for example, achievements are disabled and connecting to a differently modded server is blocked. But cosmetic mods (basically texture packs), don't change the checksum and thus can be used in multiplayer and with achievements. It is only modified if game code is changed.

Well good news. WRs *are* dismissed or straight up presumed to be cheated and thus discounted if not streamed.... unless you're already popular or friends with the mods lol

And if you're extra smart you tune down the rates ever so slightly for some runs, keep it unchanged for some others, and never use one of those configurations two runs in a row, that way your good luck just looks like luck, as does your ill fortuned and "normal" runs

@@thychozwart2451 this is particularly why I can't care about rng heavy speedruns. I like skill. Not people getting lucky

@@bbbbbbb51 playing around Minecraft’s rng is a huge skill in itself. While yes being number 1 doesn’t mean you are the best due to rng but if you are consistently hitting sub 10 pace that’s an indicator you are one of the best and that’s not just luck

Nah, it only speaks that you grind more hours at the game than others, which at some point does reflect dedication or experience, but not that directly

@@bbbbbbb51 Imo it could have some value in that the runners have to adapt to unexpected situations. But basically this, no idea why minecraft speedrunning got so big suddenly.

Just edit the hash overlay on the top of the spliced frames and when it refreshes, just change the overlay again, plus, rip speedrunners with bad internet

Jusr modify the tool

Goldeneye on N64 online is also out.

That won't work. Drops which are random can't be checked. For example, if you kill a blaze and it drops a blaze rods and you only recorded the inputs, sometimes the inputs will match and sometimes it won't. In addition, you can't detect manipulations from just recording inputs; if I mine gravel, it will record "left click(5 seconds) (gravel ----> flint)". This doesn't tell us anything about whether the drops have been manipulatted

Yeah, nothing about RNG is deterministic. The player movement might be, idk, but that's rarely the topic of cheated runs anyway (never heard of any cases actually)

Are you sure Minecraft is deterministic? Don’t mind the other commenters with no RNG knowledge saying that it’s random because duh it’s RNG… that’s not how it works. But I think Minecraft is complex enough that an input recording of a run might not be deterministic like it is in most games with RNG.

@@polygontower It would work, because of how RNG works on computers. So if someone records inputs, and in their playthrough they get a drop, but in verifying it shows no drop, then you know it has been manipulated.

@@debesys6306 Random, yes, but it calls an RNG function, which is deterministic, and in the same settings and play, if the exact same inputs are done at the exact same time, will be the same. Just because it is random (which computers can't really do) doesn't mean it is random. It is pseudorandom.

thats pretty crazy. But if someone caught it out why would you not respond??

@@rosabellewakefield5444 Good question! It was also part of the test; we intentionally gave vague and nonexistent answers and he didn't press the issue much, and no one else began openly asking questions to the moderation team. We learned that our group is by nature trusting, but maybe also a little afraid to speak up if they think something is fishy.

@PelemusMcSoy That makes sense, so essentially they raised a 'this is odd' but never went for the mod team to actually call foul play