HOW TO charge LITHIUM below ZERO!

Рет қаралды 18,353

Күн бұрын

The truth about off-gird cold temperature or below sub-zero charging ( solar, B2B or shore power ) of lithium batteries in your vanlife / campervan or motorhome. It’s all a lie, cold temperatures do not damage Lifepo4 chemistry. Well, it’s a misconception, the chemistry is the only part which can be charged below zero. the other components of the lithium cell becomes damaged via lithium plating this video I hope to achieve to teach you the simplified science of the cold temperature charging of lithium cells. I Hope this video can help Educate anyone on the anatomy of lithium leisure batteries, from Cylindrical and prismatic cells to BMS’s ( Battery management systems )
this video is working with Roamer and their Xtreme series based ( different from there normal Smart gen3 ) as I have been experimenting with a new cold temperature lithium batteries which have no heat pads or insulation. They are achieve by working with and developing a new low temperature lithium cell without their supplier. However, I make the vast majority of the video about educating the everyday person about the anatomy is of leisure lithium batteries and why just because they look the same they are very different.
Roamer Xtreme Battery Series: - roamer.com/collections/xtreme... --
Roamer Smart GEN3 Battery Series: - roamer.com/collections/smart?... --
Whilst this video is promoting a product, I hope you can come away with a better understanding of any lithium battery to make a more informed decision.
I do have an affiliate link with Roamer if you wish to purchase the extreme series or the normal smart generation three that help support me in the channel
Roamer affiliate Link - roamer.com/?aff=16
Watch @WillProwse for detailed lithium tear down videos: - • Battery Tear Down's
Watch this video for a more detailed explanation on lithium cells: • How a Lithium Ion Batt...
#Roamer #lithium #Leisurebattery
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Пікірлер: 170

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

The purpose of this video is to help explain ( simply ) lithium leisure batteries in general and how they work. So hopefully anyone can make a more informed decision when purchasing any brand of lithium leisure battery. I hope you learnt something.

@bntambridge Жыл бұрын

Sponsored but no hard sell, just informative. Thanks Alex.

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

That’s what I try and do with my sponsored video, make them more useful over a product review. it’s more about lithium batteries in general than the individual product, but at least is going to one solution for common winter time issue with a lithium

@TheWrinklyNomads Жыл бұрын

Nice one Alex...👍 Just finished installing my new Roamer 460Smart3 and I was so tempted to have a peek inside. You've saved me....!!!

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

Great battery! Glad you enjoyed the video

@paulg8524 Жыл бұрын

i built my own lifepo4 battery 2 years ago for about £500 for 280ah, was complete novice and was surprisingly easy, great way to save alot of money on van build

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

It’s a great option, I know with few DIY packs and would love to give it a go myself at somepoint

@ourtimevanlife9667 Жыл бұрын

What a great vlog Alex to explain lithium well done,, I have been looking at loads of KZfaq vlogs on Lithium batteries over the last two months and you have given more info in one vlog than all of them put together 👍👍.. just got my new lithium Roamer 460 smart T3 and instilling so some great tips mate 👍 Guys get on Alex’s link for your new Roamer battery 👍

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

Welcome to the Roamer team! Glad you felt it was well done. I was hoping to get health idea around the core concept across

@asaandthemarchharepart2903 Жыл бұрын

Brilliant video Alex. Thanks for explaining how it all works. We are all using them without knowing what is really going on inside the unit. Much appreciated. Glasses look cool 😎

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

Glad the explanation works for you. The overall plan for the video demonstrate there’s more going on on the inside.

@johnrefoy6916 Жыл бұрын

Hi Alex, Absolutely fascinating! I was considering a separate battery heater for my 2 LiFePO4 similar to what you fitted for yours. I now feel truly informed! Thank you, They are never going to be 'black boxes with terminals on' for me ever again! Thank you!

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

I’m glad to hear the whole purpose of the video was to just help educate anybody on a variety of things which could be inside a battery

@peterfinch3548 Жыл бұрын

That was absolutely fascinating. A simplistic explanation was sufficient for me. I am sure if you had been any more technical you would have lost me. I am now inspired to raise my Roamer battery off the van floor and insulate the box it currently sits in. Thanks for the advice. The Alfred Wainwright adage of “There's no such thing as bad weather, only unsuitable clothing” comes to mind. I trust you had suitable clothes to be able to sit out in the snow, or were you just suffering for your art?

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

I’m glad it was enjoyed. I felt that the core concepts of lithium and lithium batteries was the key to get over this feature and not to go into the finer scientific detail. But to give people a healthy understanding, but it’ll make it clear. There is far more science going on, then I bring up. Generally any battery I think lifting off the ground is a good shout. Don’t worry, I definitely wasn’t cold filming that plenty of warm kit

@Alivefrom45 Жыл бұрын

Great video Alex, to the point, clear and easy for everyone to understand. We went with Roamer for our build and worth every penny.

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it, and that sounds very much like the point I wanted for the video. To simplify an explanation around a complicated subject.

@richiebainbridge2608 Жыл бұрын

Love this content, very interesting. I would also love to know what your background education is because of the confidence in your teaching ability. On a less serious level what the hell would people think of you sitting in the snow talking to yourself as they passed bye 😂. Cheers Richie.

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

Thank you, my background is instructing and guiding clients in mountains, jungle, desert and many other environments. So used to educating people. combine that with being more confident on camera having done the KZfaq thing for two years now it seems to work quite well making informative videos. Yeah, they probably did think I was a nutter sitting in the snow! One of the other videos, recently, there were definitely some very bewildered people behind a camera, looking at me 😂

@moonies414 Жыл бұрын

Great video again, Alex, had my Roamer battery for a year now and it’s running sweet

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it, they are great units :)

@spirit5_of_adventure Жыл бұрын

Very well explained and useful tips for people building their own vans, etc 👍

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

Cheers! Glad you think so!

@wheelsadventures3436 Жыл бұрын

Thanks for another awesome video Alex, super informative and interesting 👏 And your sunglasses are cool 😎

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

Glad it was interesting and informative, and that you like my sunglasses 😎

@markpowell5654 Жыл бұрын

Nice video i built a heater like in your van for my lithium battery i built for my off grid shed that runs part of my house thanks.😀👍

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

Brilliant , I think heating the underside of the battery via a plate is a brilliant and the most effective and safest form of battery heating

@tramptruck4859 Жыл бұрын

That's a very informative video. My takeaway is that it is better to prevent the "ordinary" lithium batteries from getting cold, rather than dealing with the results. Mine (and the starter batteries) are inside the habitation box in a trickle heated compartment.

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

Yes! I definitely agree! It’s far better to prevent them getting cold in the first place than trying to warm them a big thermal mass of the battery but up to a safe working temperature again

@Rich-n-Cooper Жыл бұрын

helpful and some great tips for location and storage of your battery!

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

Glad to hear, whilst the video is working with a brand and there product ( which I’m very happy with ) I’d prefer to make videos which were helpful and educational and not just a review

@JohnThomas-ou2rn 6 ай бұрын

Good video, good job. Learned a few new things.

@MispronouncedAdventures 6 ай бұрын

Glad it was useful

@Elites-asthetic Жыл бұрын

Amazing video and explanation 🎉 I use the same battery buddy I am struggling to get a sync with the bmv Have you done a video yet on setting up this battery mate with the mppt and bmv 🙏 I think that’s why I struggle because I have b2b and mppt but also use a multiplus so finding that perfect balance for changing and getting a sync is hard Thanks for the information tho on the video buddy

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

Hey! Sorry I missed this comment Sean, I haven’t don’t s install video. The find the BMS number as different a little bit to my BMV. But to be fair I only pay attention to the BMV. The work out SOC via maths. So I’m happy with what the bmv things

@yaroslavmuradian5959 Жыл бұрын

Thanks very much, Alex, for your thorough explanation. I will visit your affiliate link. Keep up your inspiring adventures!

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

Thank you very much and glad to hear you thought it was thorough

@vanforallseasons Жыл бұрын

Thanks, Alex. Really helpful.

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

Glad to hear you found parts of it helpful

@WarthogARJ 10 ай бұрын

This was an interesting problem to compare the two cases: Energy from discharging an individual 26650 at - 40 C, compared to first warming it up to 25 C, then discharging it at that temp. I calculated the amunt of energy needed to warm up a cold battery cell from -40 C to 25C. You can get Heat Capacity values for LiFePO4 batteries. For a 26650 it's +/- 1200 J-kgK So from -40 C to 25 C, for an 86g battery, you need 6.63 kJ. It's quite a lot, but is high due to Lithium compounds having a high heat capacity. Roamer gives the data for its xTreme 26650 battery for discharge at 1 C down to 2.0 V at various temperatures. So you need to integrate the discharge (in Ah) over the drop in Voltage: from OCV to 2.0 Volts. That gives you Watt-hours, or Joules (Energy). And it's the same trend for other discharge rates: there's nothing slanted abut using a 1C discharge rate. For -40 C, you get 5.49 kJ At 25 C, it's 13.30 kJ A note here is that the discharge data that Roamer quotes has the output at colder temperatures going to 1.5 V. Whereas the hotter temperatures are to 2.0 V. So that's an unfair bias: they should be quoting batteries discharged to the same end voltage. In any case, I took my data from their charges, which shows the battery discharge going down in Volts, and the current dischrged as that occurs (the mAh). Therefore, it's better to heat up the battery to 25 C and THEN discharge it, you get an EXTRA 7.8kJ. That's comparing the differences in energy. And it's in practice better than that, since you'll likely be using some sort of diesel or other fuel to supply the energy to heat it up if you DID let it get that cold. But energy is energy. But in any case, the obvious thing is to store the Lithium batteries in your heated area where they don't get as cold as -40 C. Or at least insulating them very well, and then using a small amount of energy to counter whatever is lost thru the insulation. I haven't done that, but it's going to be very small over a period of a day. So to be honest, I don't really see the justification for buying an (extremely) expensive cold-temperature battery. Not for this sort of application in a van with a small solar array. You're bettery off buying a standard battery at £972 plus a small conventional lead acid (cost £50) one to use to keep them both warm. Compared to the xTreme (expensive) one at £1,520.

@MispronouncedAdventures 10 ай бұрын

I do say throughout the video it’s not a battery that needed by most people, it’s pretty rare I’d says that it’s needed for leisure used by most Europeans. Most leisure settings are not going to be that cold inside the vehicle and heating like diesel heaters if there is an occupant will be on keeping it a lot warmer. although that being said I do know a number of my British van friends have taken their normal lithium batteries to the low temperature cut offs during UK winter as they sat in the unheated van garages directly on the floor,, again, I wouldn’t say they would need this battery they just need to consider how they’ve placed their batteries. with conscious placing of batteries so there breaking of the cold bridge between the floor in the battery will always be beneficial. It has more practicality industrial uses sitting in an unheated spaces, power equipment whilst taking in Solar during day on winter days. More likely it’s not operated at its extreme end of it is temperatures range. Probably would sitting a few degrees below zero than -30c Leisure uses could have more application in countries which experience temperatures far below zero. Especially if it’s a campervan, a motorhome which isn’t taken out often and is left for a few days or weeks on used. But as I said in the video, it’s not needed by most people. whilst there are discharge and charge effects when below zero, and further you go more pronounced, it’s still possible to use the battery without causing any permanent damage due to the cell

@MarkServenti Жыл бұрын

Brilliant video. Thanks again

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

Thank you, glad you think so

@ernieschatz3783 6 ай бұрын

Good stuff to know. Seems like a lot of added peace of mind in areas like arctic regions, etc. I'm wondering what the tradeoffs mght be as well. Could there be some tradeoffs operating in hot weather with an electrolyte formulated for cold temps?

@MispronouncedAdventures 6 ай бұрын

As for trade-offs, it’s not hot temperature. You actually get a higher then standard operating temperature with these lithium cells as well as a cold with temperature. Trade-off is size and cost, they are both larger than the equivalent cells at the same capacity and cost more

@garygiles63 Жыл бұрын

great job, thanks

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

Thank you

@ewanstevenson Жыл бұрын

Thanks; that's a great explanation! I remember my cathodes and anodes from school, nearly 40 years ago, when my chemistry teacher wrote 'Chemistry is cnap' on the blackboard (with the 'n' looking more like an 'r'. Cathode Negative Anode Positive as he explained! Completely off topic... Have you ever considered taking your van on the ferry from Denmark to Iceland? That would be quite an adventure. And plenty opportunity for mispronunciation when you get there!

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

Thank you. I’m glad you found it we’ll explained! Pretty sure in school I had the same basics explained but probably didn’t care at the time at least now I actually find it interesting. I didn’t know there was a option to get van over to Iceland. I might well look into that! It is a fantastic opportunity for me to mispronounced everything!

@ewanstevenson Жыл бұрын

@@MispronouncedAdventures I'm pretty sure that it's s thing, but I imagine you would need the commission from quite a few battery sales to buy a ticket! 😂

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

@@ewanstevenson I just looked up the prices! I’m gonna need a lot of commission 😂

@LifeistooshortCK Жыл бұрын

Hi Alex very interesting. At one point you talk about using a Victron smart shunt did you say you are or aren’t going to see the power the battery is using to heat itself ?

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

These batteries don’t need heating. The part I mentioned that internal battery heaters,consume energy, but it’s done in a number of different ways. If it’s a built-in battery heater, then the energy use is going to be upstream of the Victrum shunt. shunt would never see the energy being used. And SOC would be out on Victron shunt ( but not the batteries own BMS SOC )

@LifeistooshortCK Жыл бұрын

@@MispronouncedAdventures thanks for that clarification. Much obliged 🙂👍

@stephenbulmer7148 Жыл бұрын

cheers very informative👍👍

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

Thank you, glad to hear it was informative

@theonebucketlist 9 ай бұрын

Great explanations!

@MispronouncedAdventures 9 ай бұрын

Thank you! I wanted to make the video about the technology behind lithium in this format because it’s interesting opposed to a particular product

@sswwooppee 5 ай бұрын

If the temperature sensor is on the bottom of the battery, I can imagine an external heat on the bottom pad tricking the BMS to charging while the top of the battery is still frozen.

@MispronouncedAdventures 5 ай бұрын

Which is why it is important to have multiple temperature sensors inside a battery, luckily many of the high-quality BMS is have multiple temperature sensors. As you’ve quite rightly pointed out different areas of the battery will be different temperatures.

@tomjerry6529 Жыл бұрын

Very interesting stuff Alex!! As I'm going to built my own 4 season exedition vehicle in the midterm for longterm use (also cost wise) but also open minded for more purpose use of components (here very cold condions), I'm asking myself, if there is a "best" temp for loading those batteries and best for unloading them compared to "normal" LiFePo4? Let's say, 20°C, will the special Roamer-Batt's electrolyt cause less life cycles or less percent of unloading capacity?, what about at +60°C or more in hot summer full sunny parking spot near equator (been absent in a colder pub for sure ;-) )? For me, going a 4x4 max. 6m version with a bit of good wading depth, searching always for more room space and volume, I could think of positioning such Romaers underneath the camper box (maybe isolated, maybe not, but maybe yes, as to be set water protected (!?). Lowering center of gravity would be a benefit the same time and good package dimensions as well to go somewhere to the middle inside the vehicles semi felxible ladder frame. But, if this outside temps would maybe low life cycles, that wouldn't be my choice COST wise in the long term usage. Hmmm. What to consider? Any hints or recommendatiosn on that? Many thanx! Cheers

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

Hey, just to check when you says “loading” and “unloading” do you meant charge and discharge? The xtreme series effectively have an increased temperature range for both discharge and charge in high and low temperature conditions. The datasheets in Roamer website have information on testing & life cycles on the cells are different parameters. But as far as I’m aware and reading it doesn’t have less lifecycles under normal conditions than regular cells. I can’t remember what the IP rating of the units are but the could be mounted under a conversion as long as reasonable protection was considered to stop water reaching the terminals on top of the battery

@tomjerry6529 Жыл бұрын

@@MispronouncedAdventures Many thanx. Yes, I ment (dis-)charging. Sorry, 'been non native speaker. ;) Cheers

@revidrevid5672 Жыл бұрын

Great info thanks

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

Glad you thought so

@paulgamble8837 Жыл бұрын

Hi Alex. Have you used the roamer app to monitor the battery levels yet? My experience is poor due to the app incorrectly stating the capacity of the battery, 530ah and not 320ah. Basically the app is unusable. Roamer acknowledge there's a bug with the app but have done nothing about it. As you work along side these guys, can you let them know they need to sort the problem out as or people will look elsewhere for their power supply needs. Great videos by the way, always informative and often quite funny. Cheers Alex. 👍

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

I work for a Roamer now. We know of the app issues and are working on a new app not just a update. Capacity can be modified in settings. Normally the capacity setting isn’t the issue . It’s the first few cycles. The BMS doesn’t know what is zero or 100% The issue moment of SOC recalibration at 100% isn’t working, but it does at zero so we recommend a full discharge to calibrate. I don’t use the personal. I used a Victron shunt

@garybennett900 Жыл бұрын

great info tnx Alex

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

Thank you

@andybegbie8553 Күн бұрын

Hi, was you on the roamer stand at camp quirky after lock down? I purchased one of their under seat batteries & remember there being someone who did extreme stuff with them

@MispronouncedAdventures Күн бұрын

Indeed I was, I’ve been on the stand for a few festivals this summer as well

@andybegbie8553 Күн бұрын

@MispronouncedAdventures just watched your videos on your van build. Wot was your reason to use a diesel heater to heat your water instead of say a truma diesel/electric heater? U can still heat the water from your inverter. Also would u not consider upgrading to say an autotern as they look far better quality

@docbarham2431 Жыл бұрын

Thanks very interesting 🧐 stay safe mate

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

Thank you and will do

@MichaelEricMenk 5 ай бұрын

As you stated in the video, the low temperature charging does not have a hard cutoff ay 0°C. A lot of the BMS sold have a 1C max charge rate above 0°C, and completely disable charging below 0. But there are batteries that have temperature based current limiters. One example of a battery sold in Norway is the regular 1C charge rate above 0, but between - 10°C and 0°C it limits the charge to 0.05C. This is safe, and I'm disappointed that not more batteries have this multiple step implementation..

@MispronouncedAdventures 5 ай бұрын

Yes, the vast majority of the lithium batteries which are sold at low prices are many, just Chinese rebrand with very simple and basic BMS. But I guess it’s a lot cheaper for companies to do a hard cut off opposed to a current control. Interesting, Norwegian example, which company is that I would be interested into looking into its model of BMS. Always like learning new things. But generally, yes. the no Charging below zero is an over simplification of a more complex issue. But I guess for the vast majority of the market that over simplification is probably just fine .

@JohnLaFosse 6 ай бұрын

I’ve got Renogy 100ah ‘smart’ lithium batteries. I bought Facon heater pads ready to install with an auto thermostat with a rocker switch. I’m thinking I should place the heating pad underneath away from the BMS and place it on a switch before the fuse panel and use it when necessary. Otherwise use the battery cutoff switch.

@MispronouncedAdventures 6 ай бұрын

I agree when heating is required for a lithium battery I feel it’s best to be at the coldest point or where the most heat escapes from which is from the bottom. Heat pad under it a great option

@JohnLaFosse 6 ай бұрын

@@MispronouncedAdventures Groovy.

@rogerstarkey5390 Жыл бұрын

As Alex said, if you want stripdowns, and often destructive testing, Will Prowse is the man. I bet he'd LOVE this video!

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

Maybe I’ll be lucky enough he will watch it! He is a fantastic resource and his 50+ playlist of battery teardowns. I do a great job emphasising the point. They all generally use the same plastic box, but inside they can be shockingly horrific or incredibly well engineered.

@ThreeFineWonders Жыл бұрын

Yes. Except I have not seen Will ever mention the ability to non destructively charge any Lifpo4 below zero celsius. He is very adamant about the zero limit. Please correct me if wrong.

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

@@ThreeFineWonders I guess in the broader sense Will is correct as he only looked at lithium batteries using the conventional cell construction, easier to say it can’t be done overall. And Roamer Xtreme series is the first on the market to use a cell like this. I’m sure if he watched the video he would find the tech interesting.

@ThreeFineWonders Жыл бұрын

@@MispronouncedAdventures What’s confusing is that, for example, quality brand Sterling’s Lifepo4s, have claimed to have low temp charge for a good while. Inconsistencies abound.

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

@@ThreeFineWonders what sterling Lifepo4 were you looking at? I’ve just looking at there datasheets They all seems to have a 0c low temperature disconnect. They do have a heated battery which is labeled “low temperature operation” but that using cell heaters.

@insanegnyc 5 ай бұрын

To charge a battery in cold temperatures which are outside the batteries operating temperature you have to utilize a heating system that has a regulator so that you don’t over heat the battery ( prevent thermal runaways ) along side some insulation to minimize the heating systems energy consumption. End of story.

@MispronouncedAdventures 5 ай бұрын

Or you can do it others ways Like shows in this video.

@nigelcharles511 Жыл бұрын

I am not using my semi off grid system in extreme conditions like you. I have three 30kwh 48v prismatic packs which are kept in outbuildings. Two of these are in trailers to move the power to my home. To combat the cold temperature problem the boxes are well insulatedespecially at the bottom. I attached heater mats to the underside of an aluminium sheet which is below the cells. This spreads out the heat evenly. The mats only produce about 60W of heat. This is fine as it slowly distributes the heat with minimal heat spots. I set the controller to come on at +5degC and off at +10degC. During ambient temperatures of - 6degC this winter the battery temperature (sensor placed lower centre of the pack) was fairly stable. I think the secret is to have plenty of insulation, heat evenly from the bottom and use just enough heat to maintain temperature. In effect you are then maintaining temperature rather than heating the battery. If you start from a fully chilled battery that is a different problem. Given the weight of a pack (about 160kg in my case) there is a lot of heat inertia. Much easier to start off at a minimum temperature of say +10degC and prevent sub zero temperatures than heat from cold.

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

That’s how I heated my previous set of lithium batteries. A heat pad ( per battery) with a aluminium plate underneath to disperse the heat. Evenly in well insulated box. Regulated by a temperature relay. And that system worked rather well. It became even more useful when I did lift the batteries in the insulated boxes off the ground have an air gap. Then the heat pads came on less. which would make sense as there’s less cold transfer from the cold floor into the insulated box.

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

I also use the same principle to heat my previous batteries. I would have it come on at 8° C as you stated it’s better to stop at reaching zero then have it come on at zero. As batteries are a huge mass and it’s quite a lot of energy needs to go into them to heat them all up evenly, especially prismatic cells.

@nigelcharles511 Жыл бұрын

One of my packs is in a wooden box on castors which certainly minimises the cold soak problem. The other two are in trailers. This provides plenty of ground separation but the skin of the trailer is metal so the insulation is slightly more important.

@youngy7449 7 ай бұрын

Very informative video, great watch 👌

@MispronouncedAdventures 7 ай бұрын

Glad you found it informative. The purpose of the video was to be more about information than it was selling a product.

@youngy7449 7 ай бұрын

Ive just realised that my batteries have gone into low temperature protection mode, i just needed an insight into it, i think its time to watch your Lithium battery warmer video 🙂

@Johnnybanarna Жыл бұрын

I would love a couple of Roamer batteries, but unfortunately i am in the Nordics and don't have that kind of cash. To my knowledge they only offer installments in the U.K. This is the battery company i am most interested in though.

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

I can see they have some information on there website for international Europe orders. But I don’t know in’s and out of it

@Johnnybanarna Жыл бұрын

@@MispronouncedAdventures They have installments available in the U.K only through Klarna , ironically it's a Swedish company.

@roamerbatteries Жыл бұрын

Amazing explanation Alex! What a guy. Want a job? 😆

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

I’ll be in touch 😁

@WarthogARJ 10 ай бұрын

Hi. Thanks for your amusing videos. As for lithium batteries in a van, I'm a bit dubious of their cost effectiveness. Especially these (very) high end Roamer ones. They are REALLY incredibly expensive. And sorry to if I seem to be attacking you, but after all, you were GIVEN these things. I cannot see a really good argument supporting anyone BUYING them. I've been using Lithium batteries for my motorbike for a while now. The first one I bought, and was quite disappointed. After that I've made my own. Is easy: buy good qualioty batteries, get a good BMS suited for the job (high max amps to start, and that balances them), and make yourself a spot welder. Easy. And yes, it IS an issue starting in cold weather. But some workarounds: can add a heater (properly designed). Or use a Lithium separate battery pack to start: can keep THAT one warm before (and on long trips isn't a bad idea to have a small backup battery). But I see no reason to spend huge amunts for these special cold-rated Roamer batteries. If you look at the behaviour that Roamer quotes at low temperatures it's INCREDIBLY bad in terms of discharge. It drops to maybe 50% of what it could be at room temperature. So what lose all that power? Rather build a proper insulated holder, and if needed, add a small heater to KEEP it warm. It's simple physics: compare the energy output from a battery at > 20 C, even with a bit of power needed to heat it. and compare that to what you get from a battery at - 20 C or colder. No question what is better. If you want to design a battery that yiou CAN warm, then cylindrical cells are best, and you can put the heating elements in the spaces due to the voids caused by packing. And put your thermocouple inside as well. No problem. Last point, is minor, but is important if you want to understand the heat loss. Heat flows from HOT to COLD. You said a number of times that the cold from the van floor was going into the battery. Whereas it's other way round. And in terms of insulating, you might be worse off putting your battery on legs. A lot depends on what is generating the heat. If the air surrounding the battery is COLD, then you don't want to use legs. Rather use a layer of insulation for it to sit on. An air gap allows convection, which is a heat transfer mechanism. Air is only good if you TRAP it: in small cells, or layers. Too small to allow convection. Insulation is both cheap and light weight. You're better off heating the battery well, and then surrounding it with insulation: on battom, sides and top.

@MispronouncedAdventures 10 ай бұрын

Being given some for “free” doesn’t mean it’s gets a good review from me, I have shown bad point a number of times about products I have been given in the past. Subsequently, I now work for Roamer so I now get to see inside what goes on and how they are designed. Our batteries are more expensive than others which isn’t a problem for us. but that due to our batteries being designed by us in the UK, Uk serviceable and we have great customer service. YeS, the Cold temperature Xtreme series are particularly expensive, but the cylindrical cold temperature cells are more bulky and cost more than the conventional prismatic cell used in our normal batteries and most other. The Xtreme battery is more suited for a industry applications in my view opposed, sitting running equipment off grid in an insulated locations a few degrees below zero and not normal leisure use, which primarily the SmartGen3 is for. In a van context in the air surrounding the battery is generally never cold ( or colder than the outside ) breaking the cold bridge between the floor and the bottom of the battery is more important. Insulated box in this case is not important due to the batteries having a discharge rate down to -40c. But my previous set of LiFePO4 batteries were in an insulated box with a heat pad below ( inside the box ) . There was a huge difference between the amount of time the heat pad came on before and after I added the air gap. adding movement of the air, ideally from somewhere warmer even better. An insulated box is great, but why not do both.

@MispronouncedAdventures 10 ай бұрын

Although I do wonder for your motorbikes starter battery example. in a leisure format you are not really going to be pulling anything more then tiny C rate, Unlikely more than a 1C discharge rate an extended period of time if you are using induction stove or something. However, for a lithium starter, you would have extremely high C rate for that crank, which I don’t know the performance of under cold conditions versus normal leisure use

@WarthogARJ 10 ай бұрын

@@MispronouncedAdventures Yes, you need to pull a lot to start the bike, in my case up to 200 Amps for a few seconds to turn it over. And in the cold, you need to do it several times. A standard Lithium won't do it if the temperature gets < 5C. One trick is to draw a little current before to get the internal resistance to warm it up. Then when it is, you can try to start it. But is hit and miss, and might end up with a drained battery. The best is to have a battery warmer, or else use a 2nd battery that is warm to start it.

@charlenechua6073 Жыл бұрын

Nice caption of your adventures

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

Cheers

@ourvanviv8858 Жыл бұрын

I'm seriously thinking of moving from lead acid to lithium, as soon as I use my inverter my batteries start dropping power, does this happen less with lithium, if I say replace my 2x100ah lead acid with 1x100ah lithium?

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

Yes, lithium is far less susceptible to the effects of voltage sag ( a high inverter load dropping system voltage ) Swapping 2x100ah lead acids could 100ah lithium would work. But probably swapping for the 160Ah model which be better. Depth of discharge for lead acid is recommended at 50%. 200ah = 100ah usable. 100Ah Lithium is around 80%. = 80ah. So a large 160ah lithium would be better

@casparv Жыл бұрын

@@MispronouncedAdventures 160 Ah * 80% = 128 Ah useable. Just 125 Ah would be enough to get 100 Ah useable capacity.

@casparv Жыл бұрын

This voltage drop could also occur when the inverter is hooked up to the battery with wires that are too thin (though you should only see a voltage drop when measuring on the inverter side!)

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

@@casparv I am aware of the math. I used 160ah as that’s the next size up Roamer make after 100ah @ 12v model

@peterswelly Жыл бұрын

Jump straight to min 17:00 if ya interested in cold charging. The beginning is just some very average talking bout batteries in general.

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

Average talking, which most end users don’t know. But if you want the main cold charging part then yes, skip about

@peterswelly Жыл бұрын

@@MispronouncedAdventures yep, thx for your answer

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

No worries, I am going to put timestamps on description to be skipped a different parts, KZfaq might auto chapter it as well

@betterwithrum 4 ай бұрын

any US options, seems Roamer isn't shipping to the us

@MispronouncedAdventures 3 ай бұрын

Email us directly at “hello@roamer.com” and let’s chat about what can be done with US shipping

@denisecafferky2248 Жыл бұрын

👍

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

Cheers

@Mulberry2000 7 ай бұрын

ebikes batteries do not like the cold and we are told not to go below -5 degrees. It can make the battery go dead also it affects the life of the battery and range if it does not go dodo.

@MispronouncedAdventures 7 ай бұрын

I’ll be using them this winter and I was last winter as well. My e-bikes are kept in the heated van until use, I’m often not out for long enough for them to cool down below a operating term, wait for them to warm up again before charging. Although I might consider insulating them a bit more or even a heated cover

@octoma 24 күн бұрын

Here's another myth: I have 50 LFP Tesla cells that were sitting at 0.50v when I got them... Trash, by the standards of the DIY battery community. I charged them up to 2.5v@5A and they held charge. I then step charged them up to full charge, and built a working battery. 100% no issues. I think people are regurgitating the old lithium ion spec data for lipo4/lfp. Lipo4/lfp is still a newer technology, and real world data is being collected, while dispelling the old lithium ion technology/myths that it's tethered to.

@1over137 Жыл бұрын

LiFePO4 != "Li-ion" [sic]. The two are very, very different. The voltage on LiIon is far more linear with charge discharge than LFP. If you charge a 12.6V 3S LiPo to 12.6V when it's at 0*C and then the day time sun hit it and it rises up to 30*C.... the voltage across the cells can be greater than 4.2V causing harm or worse. It's why if Li_Ion is used in solar/bulk storage it's limited to 4.1V and 60% capacity, with the 20%-80% charge target. LiFEPO4 is a completely different ball game. The charge voltage tolerance is far, far higher. More importantly the tolerance of far outside the nominal. Unlike LiIon/LiPo, LFP's fully charged drops rapidly with 1% capacity to around 3.4V. Ironically, 13.6V float voltage. However, if you put up to 4.2V across a cell it will not explode or be damaged. A Li-Ion/LiPo charged to 12.0V is undercharged. Charged to 12.6V it's fully charged. Charged to 12.8V it's overcharged and being damaged. Charged to 13.0V it's likely to be on the path to fire. 12.6V = full. 12.7V = overcharged. Compared with a 3S LiFePO4 and "99% charge" is around 3.4-3.5V per cell. Max charge voltage is 4.2V. It gives you HUGE headroom. It also makes top balancing by charging to 3.7V and allowing absorption, provides a stable "max" top balance without additional resistors.

@1over137 Жыл бұрын

what does a resistive top balancer do? Add Ohms to the top most cells. What does putting a voltage greater than 3.6V per cell do? Yep. Exactly the same thing. Keep trying to push voltage and the cell will just provide more ESR. Inbound current drops towards 0. By pushing LiFePO4 all the way up to the 14.40 or even 15.00 voltage provided in "automotive class" 12V circuits, actually top balances them by default.

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

Thank you taking the time to reply ( apologies this comment got lost in the comments ) Yes Lifepo4 is different from li-ion but that why i say early on this video say this video is only about Lifepo4 and not another other variations of lithium chemistry due to being such a variety and use case. However thank you for the detailed post

@1over137 Жыл бұрын

@@MispronouncedAdventures A note on my balancing comment. It only works that way if you have a tricky current. Any substansial current and it will unbalance at the top. Not worth doing out side of a test.

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

True, my older lithium batteries ( which were converted from a EV ) but had a diagnostics plug in for a computer to see some very detailed read outs. I got used to watching the effects on balancing / unbalancing at the top with different charge currents. Which help me pick my own charge profile

@1over137 Жыл бұрын

@@MispronouncedAdventures Doing just that as we speak with the data output from a JK-BMS fed to a database and displayed with garphana. LVC test went "ok". Decided to try a bottom balance. Today it reached full charge, although with a huge inbalance and a cell HVC :( The JK-BMS balancer is "ok", but not great. The heltec flying cap balancer does a much better job, but you need to switch it off or it will sip power away when not needed.

@jasonbroom7147 Жыл бұрын

Very good video. Much better production value than most, with a great explanation of how batteries work. With that said, the claims being made, and the arguments against the use of a heating element to ensure the electrolyte is in a suitable state for charging, are pure rubbish...and I think you know it. Your claims ignore the laws of thermal dynamics, including, but not limited to, the fact that cold falls, heat rises, and conduction is very much a thing! Irrespective of where the heating pads are placed, all one has to do is set a top temperature well above freezing for the goal to be achieved. A simple foam pad under the battery (a very good idea for multiple reasons) will act as a thermal barrier to cold coming in from the bottom, by simply breaking that conductive bond. Inside the battery, heat applied from the bottom, or the sides, or even from the ends of each cell, can and will (you can't stop it) be conducted to the core of the cells, warming the electrolyte and making it safe to charge. Your insinuation that this process is somehow unreliable is unbecoming of your intellect and a thoroughly transparent effort to promote this product and earn your shilling. Please don't waste your talents as a producer of quality content by subverting your own education on these topics, least of all in the name of a sponsored product.

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

My argument is not that cell pads don’t heat is it that they don’t heat evenly thought out a pack / or quickly due to how they are often implemented , and where the BMS’s temperature sensor or sensors is places is very important. Which just wrapping prismatic cell which are a large solid mass and often only a small number of the total cells inside a battery box in not effective, often in a 4s configuration on battery dismantle videos you often only see Cell 1 & 4 wrapped. Even more so on uneven heat especially if the cold bridge between the bottom of the pack is still there. Which is why I say for a more even heating of a battery is to use an external battery heat / heat pad on the side and not the side walls. My previous set of batteries I built my own heat pads for. This videos isnt for pushing people to buy the Xtreme series, I say a number of times why they don’t need it. But I share my views on how at the moment heated batteries are popular but are implemented poorly and is used more as a marketing point, and how some are implemented ineffectively. Heating even 2 of 4 cells would in heat all cells eventually, but if the temperature sensor is in an less an ideal location and there is a cold bridge. The BMS could turn of its low temperature cut off because areas of the pack or even individual cells are all completely safe to charge. If companies used cells heaters at the bottom with a temp sensor located in the right place that could work. But I am yet to see that done

@jasonbroom7147 Жыл бұрын

@@MispronouncedAdventures - You make some good points, but when you factor in that these heaters aren't trying to keep the cells at 1 or 2 degrees, Celsius, the fact of the matter is placement of the heating pads and temperature sensor are largely immaterial. I built my own heating system for a couple of batteries as well, and I set the temp threshold from 3 to 6 degrees, so the cells never even got to the point where they were frozen. The vast majority of batteries with built-in heating do the same thing, often with an even higher threshold. This obviates virtually all of your arguments against them, including various implementation choices.

@sportalepies Жыл бұрын

Lost me a few times there Alex with the over simplified techno babble. Some useful tips and will be lifting my battery off the floor in an insulated box 👍. Right I'm hungry, off to go cook my turkey in a frying pan ! 😆

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

That’s okay, I’m trying overall get the basic concept across. But yes, a lot of people don’t realise it simply lifting the battery off the floor and creating a little air gap has such an impact on the battery temperatures

7 ай бұрын

Cold is not enering nor exiting. Cold is the absence of heat...

@MispronouncedAdventures 7 ай бұрын

Yes, you are correct. But since I’m explaining the “concept” of cold and stopping something from getting cold as it’s a negative in this sense. It’s easier to refer to it as I did. The same way you refer to the cold getting it if something froze like waterpipes in a garden, it’s not correct as it’s heat leaving or energy leaving, but to still reference as cold get in.

7 ай бұрын

@@MispronouncedAdventures It is, nevertheless, perpetuating misconception and misunderstanding. Just because false information is easier to digest by the less educated, it is not an excuse for propagating it.

@MispronouncedAdventures 7 ай бұрын

@ Presenting a practical concept isn't necessarily perpetuating misconception or necessarily equate to spreading false information, especially if you're aware of the scientific principles. It's about striking a balance between simplifying ideas for a broader audience while acknowledging the underlying scientific principles. Communicating complex concepts in a more approachable manner is a common practice. However, I feel you’ve made your viewpoint clear

@rogerstarkey5390 Жыл бұрын

The ultimate danger of dendrites is that they physically puncture the separator, causing a short. . The Nickel based cells (normally cylindrical) have a higher energy capacity per kg (and per litre) . As such the Nickel based batteries tend to physically lighter weight than LiFePo4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) units. They are both lighter than lead acid.

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

True, there were so many areas to try and cover in one video. But I did miss physically damage. I hope it’s public known physical damage / compromising the cell is very bad! Even if I didn’t explain the mechanism of the damage Physical damage to the cell yes ( I believe that was an issue with a Samsung phone model a few years ago. The anode and cathode contacted each other due on the folding of the cell due to the shape of the battery in the phone chassis. But yes, contact between anode and cathode will lead to complete and catastrophic failure of the cell. Although in that case, the lithium playing is least of your issues. Puncturing the cell would lead to the ultimate dendrites forming As for NCM being higher energy density, I believe that was the reason many of the original large power banks used at chemistry, smaller lighter units. But switch to LiFePO4 because the name is more marketable ( public have heard of it ) and the more marketable cycle life count

@tziebe 7 ай бұрын

Isn't that a lifeypo4?

@MispronouncedAdventures 7 ай бұрын

No, LIFeYPO4 ( Lithium Iron Yttrium Phosphate ) achieves its wider operating range over standard LiFePO4 cell differently, well by the Yttrium and are normally a prismatic cell structure. These LiFEPO4 achieve their wide range by changing different components of the actual cell and normally cylindric type, but the base chemistry (cathode ) is unchanged

@tziebe 7 ай бұрын

@@MispronouncedAdventures Thanks

@MispronouncedAdventures 7 ай бұрын

I did actually get to see the distinctive yellow cells, which LiFeYPO4 use in a control box in Lukla airport when I was working in Nepal. Which is a great use of them being in a small solar powered bit of kit in a cold remote location

@tziebe 7 ай бұрын

@MispronouncedAdventures I build some systems with the yellow lifeypo4 Winston cells so I don't have to worry about the cold as they are rated to -40c But I ran in to a problem Because the datasheet says ones the cells are at -20c the low cutoff and full charge voltage change I don't know te exact numbers now but it was about 2v low cutoff and about 3.3v top at full charge If the temperature is consistent- 20c it's not a problem I can set the bms to the right parameters but where I live the temp ranges from -35 to +35c that would mean the bms would have to change the parameters automatically by temperature I never heard of a bms that can do that The reason I'm bringing this up is how are the cells in your battery behaving with my concern

@LS-zo9iw 5 ай бұрын

IM STAYING WITH agm

@MispronouncedAdventures 5 ай бұрын

Good luck with that

@LS-zo9iw 5 ай бұрын

been using AGM over 10 yrs now -20 f to 100 never an issue. only complaint is the weight@@MispronouncedAdventures

@munkehpower Жыл бұрын

I found your knob being in shot rather distracting

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

I didn’t expect a comment like this, but thank you. Can you specify a time stamp you find it most distracting?

@munkehpower Жыл бұрын

@@MispronouncedAdventures kzfaq.info/get/bejne/ncyXbNSnrpzYn2Q.html its in front of you, all be it to the left of the frame my focus kept being drawn to it

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

😂 oh goddess, you meant the doorknob.

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

I never noticed that in frame, my bad

@munkehpower Жыл бұрын

oh and it gets bigger kzfaq.info/get/bejne/ncyXbNSnrpzYn2Q.html

@crosgor 7 ай бұрын

Please stop saying the cold comes in, you know that its the heat going out.

@MispronouncedAdventures 7 ай бұрын

Yes, I am aware because cold is the absence of energy. So yes, energy is going out. So you not wrong I guess it’s the context of how i spoken it. I guess in the terms I’m using if I was actively heating a house or van and it was insulated, I would want to prevent the heat getting out. I guess in this situation I’m not actively heating the battery and trying to contain heat I’ve put into it. Or as cold does damage to something unheated ( let’s say to water pipes or something ) to you talk about the cold getting in. Technical terminology you are correct

@joeboxter3635 7 ай бұрын

@MispronouncedAdventures If the temperature outside and inside the battery were the same, would the heat go out? No. So without cold, you get nothing. Therefore it is the cold that comes in. You need cold, you don't need heat. Now if you want to get technical, we have defined heat as a higher number than cold. If this was reversed, all the physics would stay the same and correct answer would be given. There is really nothing wrong saying cold comes in. Its convention in physics that heat is high number of energy and cold is relatively low. Otherwise, it makes no difference which is which. So it is convention not some absolute to speak heat is high and cold is low. If you wish to flip convention, it's not like you are violating some law of nature.

@rp9674 6 ай бұрын

Potato tomaato

@tluva1020 6 ай бұрын

Lol

@user-yk8ow4ku2v 6 ай бұрын

I just duscribed to your channel even if hard to follow your pronunciation we are not used to hear english people but i will try to get some of your knowlege and experiences Thanks I am in North America Arizona State summer tempeature reach 122 ° F

@LS-zo9iw 5 ай бұрын

WASTE OF TIME LOL! your video TOOO LONG can be summed up as , Batteries need to be above 32 to charge them

@MispronouncedAdventures 5 ай бұрын

It’s not a summary video…. It’s a technical one. If you want a summary read the website. Thanks for your comments supporting the video

@chblabah Жыл бұрын

Isn't this what Winston does with the LiFeYPo4 for quite a while already?

@MispronouncedAdventures Жыл бұрын

This is a interesting point. I had not heard of the Winston or the LiFeYPO4 chemistry. I’ve only had a quick scan of the datasheets. It seems it changes to the LiFePo4 chemistry adding yttrium to make LiFeYPo4. Where they have achieved a similar end goal by changing the Normal LiFePO4 lithium chemistry over the video approach of changing the electrolyte and anode. Winston seems to be a raw cell manufacture and not a end user battery as in this case case, discussed in this video. I wonder what the pros and cons are of this variation of chemistry over others. Higher price or weight. Interestingly, their cell seems to be prismatic which is an interesting use for a cold temperature cell as cylindrical cells are better at thermal regulation. Cool variation of lithium chemistry tech anyway, my previous set a batteries LiFeMgPO4