A couple of quick clarifications: 1) To be absolutely clear, SuperMarioT’s CENTRAL thesis is that Miyamoto does not stalk the halls of Nintendo HQ, actively undermining any semblance of a narrative that begins to crop up while other staffers develop games, and I believe he proves this successfully. The real, objective misinformation about Miyamoto is that he goes out of his way to nip narrative elements in the bud, when this is in fact very much not the case. I just think SuperMarioT’s conflation of this with Miyamoto actually valuing narrative elements in games is a bridge too far, as there’s too much evidence to the contrary imo. 2) My turnaround time on this video was unusually fast due to my personal schedule, so there are a few more grammatical errors than usual, which I apologize for - I usually have more time for proofreading. Additionally, at 2:41 I say “signed the death knell” but the term is “signaled the death knell” lol. 3) Technically this is a shill, not a clarification, but for anyone interested, I made a pretty extensive narrative pseudo-retrospective on Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi a few years back, which you can find here: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/hZ5pdcdiya_Qc40.html

I think people like to focus on Miyamoto because he's a big name, but the real important point is just that, regardless of who did it, these changes happened, they've been consistently happening for a long time now, and we dislike them. Even if you could definitively prove that Miyamoto had nothing to do with any of it, it wouldn't change the final products we ended up with.

The most frustrating part about this "IP team" debacle is that if this team had always existed, Nintendo wouldn't have half the characters that are currently lining their rosters. For example, Nintendo wouldn't have Princess Daisy, since the IP team wouldn't have allowed R&D to make a copy of the existing Princess Peach registered trademark icon ©®TM. Same for Waluigi. Creating a whole new character just for a Tennis game? The IP Team would NEVER allow that!!! Birdo? Shy Guys? Snifits? Bob-Ombs? Pokeys? Ninjis? Sorry, we can't have those! Those are all Doki Doki Panic characters! We can't just absorb those into the Mario canon! Wario? Are you nuts!? A twisted parody of the company mascot!? That's only going to hurt the brand! Scratch the idea immediately! Donkey Kong's redesign? Nooo, nononono! Rareware can't redesign Donkey Kong! He needs to look the way he always has! No tie! No battle toad eyes! Just a generic cartoon gorilla, like in the arcade days! Diddy Kong? This ain't no Miyamoto character! Begone! I mean, even Mario Kart has been making up Characters out of nowhere. Baby Daisy? Baby Rosalina? They'd never allow those under the rule of the IP protection team! I don't understand why Nintendo is so stubborn with this stuff. Letting other developers make new characters has worked for them in the past, so why can't they do it now? Paper Mario spin offs have been home to some of the most popular characters in the entire franchise, so why keep them so separate? Is it an issue of copyright? Like, is Nintendo afraid they can't own the rights to characters like Vivian or Fawful, because a different studio made them? I'm sure they can figure out an agreement. I mean it's not like a completely disconnected company like square enix has made them. Surely they could make a contract that says all characters created for a Mario game belong to Nintendo, or something. That's still better than no new characters at all!

I never blamed Miyamoto solely for Nintendo creating products that harm arguments that video games are an artistic storytelling medium. He is just part of "the machine." Because in that same "machine" Mario as their mascot gets no personality or writing. Kirby gets none (even though Sakurai way later proved his story and protag potential with Kid Icarus Uprising). Link still doesn't have a personality. The Gamefreak Pokemon games is basically the only living turn-based rpg series that has iredeemably abysmal writing. Splattoon and Arms have really cool worlds and character designs but again no writing to give it meaning. The only parts of Nintendo that get writing or identity are side-projects or Xenoblade and Fire Emblem. Both of which came from studios and I.P.'s Nintendo bought and barely treat like theirs (also Fire Emblem not even doing well with Nintendo's reading-adverse audience until they added the dating sim elements).

I don't think I'll ever forgive shiggy miggy for cursing the paper mario series

"Miyamoto does not actively go around to shutdown all seedlings of a story" Not true. He actively shuts them down. Just read the the article "Miyamoto: Why I Spiked Mario Galaxy 2's Story" *Koizumi said that he's been trying to sneak bits of story into Mario and Zelda games for his entire career at Nintendo, even as Miyamoto has been trying to keep them out.I told Miyamoto about what Koizumi had said, and he looked slightly taken aback.* *"He said that?"* *"Yes."* *"Well, I put a stop to that at the beginning, this time," he said, and for emphasis punched the air with his fist."*

you know that since color splash paper mario story is getting better

I sincerely love the Mario movie, but I'm not blind to the fact that it did the absolute bare minimum in terms of story with creating a emotional arc for the bros. I enjoyed what they did with the plot and characters but I'm gonna about to say it even remotely holds a candle to the story telling quality of ANY of the Mario rpgs. I fucking laughed when I heard people were genuinely using it as a defence against Minamoto's anti-story nonsense.

They need to pass the PM games to different creators that actually have passion

He didn't even have to talk about links crossbow training.

I'm only 2 mins into the video, came from your RE video about the different character designs. SMT is a friend of mine and his videos on paper mario are so amazing and well researched. Looking forward to your response

Thank you SO MUCH for this. No hate for SuperMarioT, but that video was so aggravating. I just wish someone would make a video on why the Mario Movie is a complete mess and extremely lacking in basic screenplay practices. That movie imo is further evidence of Miyamoto's indifference-at-best/incompetence-at-worst (it'll probably be me, but uuuuugggghhhh)

So tl;dr, _everyone_ is at fault. I can certainly buy that, since if there were _any_ voices speaking for quality products, you'd _think_ they'd have been vindicated enough after Sticker Star or Color Splash to be given more credence than Origami King suggests... especially when "damaging the brand" is what many people have been saying about these problematic products (you know, the thing that they theoretically are THE MOST CONCERNED ABOUT). It's just... I don't know, they make these great games that no other AAA company does, only to water it down with all of these creatively bankrupt titles, it's maddening! If _anything_ can kill Nintendo, it's not Sony or Microsoft, or even emulation (especially not emulation of systems old enough to not count as piracy)... it's _themselves._ And while some of the slack will be taken up by indies in that scenario, I fear something important would be lost in the process.

Great video, I didn't think my comment would spark such a response. Once again you've gotten me to consider a different perspective that I may have never thought of otherwise. This is a really interesting discussion to have, but unfortunately so many people are so passionate about it that it usually just turns into mindless insults. And if you ask me, there's so much more nuance to it than many people from either side like to admit. Its not as simple Miyamoto (or whoever is in charge) definitively hating or liking stories. And that's why it's so fascinating to discuss. So once again, good work on the video.

I wouldn't take as much issue with people defending Miyamoto if they didn't just use it as a way to point the finger at a different guy.Tanabe has made a bunch of questionable decisions in his time, but the amount of people I see who paint him as if he's some insane lunatic who simultaneously is so egotistical in his design that he not only destroyed Paper Mario, but kept going down the same path so clearly he fully agrees with his work, but if you ask him anything about it he lies and blames Miyamoto and Nintendo for restricting him. It just doesn't make any sense, and the cherry picking in interviews they have to do to de-credit his claims, because once again in their minds he loves his creative decisions so much he has to lie about them, drives me insane. If there wasn't someone to deflect onto, maybe we would have been long past this entire debate.

I have always agreed that Miyamoto is to blame for the lack of story in most Mario games the last 10-15 years, whether or not he is the only one I cannot say, but we have to remember too that Japan business is so much different to what we are use too, the Japanese always respect there elders in high positions even if the decisions they make are really bad. Unless Miyamoto and Nintendo change there stances on story we are not going to see changes to it anytime soon.

12:23 wouldn’t this just be because.. he doesn’t care?? yeah he can not want the devs to change anything, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t pro story, he said himself recently he’s fine with stories, just prioritizes gameplay when it’s needed to be (like with here in modern paper mario) I don’t think many people believe he is actively wanting a story

I've been saying this, i could give a rat's ass about who are putting these restrictions on paper mario, I just care that they are happening. Ive seen this ridiculous tendency to kinda handwave away concerns by saying stuff like, "it isnt their fault they're working as best they can under these limitations." But it's the same concept: avoiding the heart of the matter by focusing on a completely different person or concept. In other words, I don't care if Miyamoto is ruining the story/creativity or if the developers are trying as hard as they can under these ridiculously stipulations, I care that it IS happening. This definitely doesn't apply to everyone, but it seems like some of them are deliberately missing the point to pretend like Nintendo HASN'T been going against common fan demand in this franchise since 2011.

I don't need my Mario RPG stories to be super complex, I just need the games to have a good amount of worldbuilding, a splash of continuity, unique set pieces, and a good, generous helping of original characters with unmistakable character designs. And if the main plot is basic, that doesn't mean the little subplots of the individual chapters can't be the interesting part. Like, Superstar Saga's story wasn't super complex, but it had a new villain, a new Kingdom, tons of new characters and creatures and worldbuilding, and so much personality! That made it fun and fresh and memorable. A new Mario RPG installment doesn't need to have another Super Paper Mario-esque story to be enjoyable. It can just be memorable in its own way. As long as the developers have the freedom to actually make the game they wanna make.

Even the Pikmin games don’t really have that much of an in depth story. I’m not saying they need one though. Although I will say I’m still very confused about whether Pikmin 4 retconned the entire franchise or not. I am more than halfway through the game and I still have no idea. I looked online for answers, but apparently no one else has any idea either

This is more or less how I feel. There is something seriously wrong at Nintendo and either no one wants to fix it or no one is allowed to do anything about it.

The myamoto hate has always rubbed me the wrong way so i was always 100% on the super mario t train but this video made me look at it in a different way which i respect a lot I do think that his video was framed this way because of the way myamoto was framed himself. It's just a problem with the community as a whole, either he's anti story oe pro story when he's really somewhere in the middle

Origami King is great in my opinion, but whatever legit there are to dislike having a lack of Narrative certainly isn't one of them.

Mr. Miyamoto recognises the power of stories and characters although he always prioritized gameplay even giving more "story" through in game details if anything. As for the paper Mario and other series with interesting characters i think it's kind of like something i once heard about Darth Maul, where suposedly George Lucas feared he could became cooler than vader or something....my head cannon is Mr. Miyamoto fears that the Mario franshise loses focus on Mario and some other classic charactes, plus there were characters in paper Mario that were over all more represntation and Nintendo as a whole tries to be apolitical ( which is impossible btw...) and so no taking chances with friendly bob ombs. I'm trying to give my opinion . Also you can double check older games, Mr. Miyamoto also gives priority to the characters he created ... Characters from the land franchise: Daisy only came back to fill roster, no more story for her, Wario was very popular and he is still around but the care put into his first 3d game ....yeah. Rpgs especialy the like of turn based like SMrpg, PaperMario and Mario and Luigi not favoured over the zelda style, which is more action adv or so but some view as rpg and it kind of is in some parts... What characters from Mario rpgs were used in other game ? Geno as a mii costume?.... What i mean is i do really respect Mr.Miyamoto, he created so many things now bigger than himself... i also want to see him be, as said in interviews just a "ghost" checking on the teams at Nintendo, i hope he keeps inspiring but also shares the creative control more, like with the likes of Mr. Koizumi which has brought more stories to the zelda and Mario franshises. I'm just a fan and i rant too, this video was a good watch, young or old gamers do your research, all Nintendo fans like and want to keep liking and loving the exciting games in our favourite franshises, let still be critical of them and the people involved. Let's hope for the best games to come and also replay the best we have already while we can, life is short✌️

The funniest and saddest part about this entire thing is that people were using the Pikmin series as an example of Miyamoto liking stories only for Pikmin 4 to retcon the entire series for absolutely no reason

The current state of video essays and media discussion/responses on KZfaq has plummeted off a fucking cliff. The more people I see give it a try the more shite they become. So good job for making a well written video that isn't bland chatgpt word salad nonsense.

If anything the rest of Nintendo should be looking to the old Paper Mario games for inspiration. Imagine a 3d Mario game where Mario returns to the Glitz Pit and beats up Macho Man again. Rather than having to be so rigid about no no you can't create new species or different iterations on them. That is incredibly stupid and frustrating to not just us but to the ones who want more creative freedom.

15:37 Did you really watched the full video? This is a point that Super Mario T touched on several videos, if somehow he didn't include in this video, he did on their previous one "Debunking Miyamoto Anti-Narrative". I watched a lot of his videos and he said on multiple occasions that this part that "its no longer possible to modify Mario characters" is completely only-Paper Mario thing, no other Mario series have this restriction, specially now in the Switch era, Luigi's Mansion 3 have unique ghosts, Mario Tennis Aces and Super Rush have original bosses, Mario Strikers Battle League created a new character as well, Mario + Rabbids series can modify Mario enemies, hell even the last game on Mario & Luigi games, had new characters, the BFFs. This restriction is only applied to fucking Paper Mario, so its hard to say that Miyamoto doesn't want new characters or ideias in new Mario games, if not he would shut down all of this for other games, how could you not see that Tanabe is the responsible for this? This only is majorly affecting Paper Mario. You are the one that is missing the point, specially to this crucial part.

People don't understand Miyamoto's style of story telling which is "show the story, don't tell the story, show it."

As a StarFox fan, him trying to use StarFox Zero as a point for miyamoto being for stories is like being in a boxing match, being punched repeatedly in the face and saying "look I'm winning". StarFox Zeros story could have easily been tweaked enough to be a sort of soft reboot with time traveling elements. Its a face palming moment.

The more I think about it, Myiamoto not setting the record straight could also be seen as a lack of foresight just as much as him being careless about it. After all, that would seem to make the most sense if what he said was truly a suggestion rather than a demand. I mean, how was he supposed to know everyone would respond to this whole thing regardless of who’s to blame? No matter how much you think things through, there’s always gonna SOMETHING you would’ve never even considered. But to be clear, I’m not trying to say that he wasn’t being careless about it.

I don't really blame Miyamoto much for the direction Paper Mario took following Sticker Star since even if he is constantly telling them not to put much thought into the story, he probably isn't telling them to make the gameplay itself suck too which (at least for me) has always been my main point of contention even though I miss the creativity from those first 3 games. I know this is a video about the story debate but I felt like I ought to mention this since I find it way more likely Intelligent Systems doesn't know what they're doing over the Miyamoto narrative at this point.

Okay, for the record, I already know that I could’ve made the question more brief and concise but I just couldn’t stop thinking about it and wanted convey as much information as possible. So, let me rephrase that question: “Why did these creative limitations only apply to the later Paper Mario games but NOT the other Mario franchises?”

amen, the older Mario RPGs were so creative, BIS being my personal favorite for like 500 reasons. It looks like Paper Jam has the best gameplay but I can barely trudge through the generic as fuck NSMB shit in those actual games, much less an RPG.

Though you make good points that Miyamoto is still to blame for how the last three Paper Marios turned out, I'm sure we can still agree that he's not the only one at fault. I still blame Tanabe too for needlessly treating Miyamoto's irresponsible suggestions from back then like it's the Gospel. I really hope the TTYD remake outsells Origami King to convince Intelligent Systems to unshackle themselves. I don't want to see a fourth (fifth if you count Paper Jam) new Paper Mario that is so creatively bankrupt with it's cast. Though I will say that your opinions about other Mario Spin-offs' creative direction is a bit too negative. I can understand that games like Kingdom Battle, Sparks of Hope, and Luigi's Mansion 3 don't have any modified enemy characters from the Super Mario World, they still have unique original characters that are in said world; or universe in Sparks of Hope. Speaking of Sparks of Hope, the Sparks could count as a modification to the Lumas; considering how they're fused with Rabbids. That could be seen as a small win right there. Also, about the Mario Movie, while I hear it's not really that great, I think I recall reading that it was mainly intended to not suck like many other movie adaptations of video games have in the past, which it succeeded at. I'm just trying to build some optimism here.

So, before you started to question me again for the statements I made, I gotta say I'm kinda disappointed of how this all turned out, I watched a couple of years ago your video of the decline of Mario rpgs and I agree with a lot of things, like Bowser's Inside Story having a bland world and I played BIS and SPM the most like you, so its a bit painful to strongly disagree with you now in this video, but I will be ok. I hope you at least understand some of my points and not just say I'm stupid for thinking the way I do because if not, the problem is with you, I don't mean any harm to you, I hope you do the same for me okay? Respect is something everyone need to learn. Goodbye.

Since Pikmin 4 decided to throw the entire timeline out the window for no reason, the only Nintendo series I like that has a timeline that isn’t a complete mess is Metroid💀. Imo Metroid is probably the Nintendo franchise with the best storytelling (Other M notwithstanding)

22:38 Tbf the problem with these games isn’t that they were green lit in the first place, except for maybe zip lash since it’s completely different from all the rest of the games in the series and should’ve been a spinoff. Federation force is only hated because of when it was announced And from what I understand so is hey pikmin. These games are spin offs so them being different from the mainline Games is ok. I’ve played all of these games and I’ve liked all of them. Zip lash is a decent platformer (I haven’t played any of the other Chibi Robo games which is why I really don’t have an opinion on it) and I think hey pikmin is really cute and honestly better than Pikmin 2. Federation force is an incredible game. Playing that game in multiplayer is some of the most fun I’ve had in the game in a while. Plus telling a side story within the Metroid universe with different characters is actually pretty cool to me. The problem with these games isn’t that they were green lit, it’s more so everything else that was happening while the game was announced or released

To be completely honest, the Myiamoto controversy has always been (in my opinion) too contradictory for me to believe either side. I mean, none of the “defenders” have ever been bothered to bring up literally any of the games that not only HAVE strong or decent narratives but have also technically credited him for his involvement regarding the development, (like the first three Mario and Luigi RPGs, just as an example). It, at the very least, would’ve been a better defense than straight up ignoring the infamous Paper Mario Sticker Star interview. And, this whole controversy has really only made me question when, how, and why so many people choose exaggerate the truth, whether you choose to accuse him (let-alone ANYONE at Nintendo HQ) or play devil’s advocate. If anything, I’ve always thought that Myiamoto was always OKAY with story in the games but was always trying to prioritize the gameplay. But this entire controversy has always left me with one question: “If Nintendo was so damn insistent on these creative limitations that’ve been in place ever since Sticker Star’s release and continued with the release Color Splash and Origami King, then why was Mario and Luigi Dream Team allowed to have a cast of original characters and locations while the Bowser’s Inside Story remake came with three original antagonists considering that was released one year before Origami King?”

I mean this wouldn't have happened without people misconceiving that Miyamoto is anti-story, but at the same time this video also has its own brand of misconceptions of Miyamoto valuing story in his games. I on the other hand, just think Miyamoto is on this gray area where if game needs story, then story he shall focus on. I mean for christ's sake this guy made Metroid and Zelda and you're telling me he's 100% anti story?

19:25 What's your problem with this? I don't know why you making a scandal/rant on the Rabbids dressed as Mario characters. Do you somehow failed to realize that the Rabbids are like blank canvas of characters? They put rabbids with the clothes of Mario characters because it fucking made sense, what would you do if you have a entire franchise of generic white rabbits and fused with Mario? This game was a massive experiment that payed off greatly and in the sequel, they had more new fresh ideas, that couldnt be done without the first game existence, they not only created new characters like Edge, the Spark Hunters and the planet Wardens, but also gave voices for each of the Mario Rabbids. I don't what you were expecting? A character or enemy outside of the Main Mario series or something that has nothing to do with Rabbids in a Rabbids game? Don't make me laugh. You can't expect a third party developer get the rights to use Wanda from Mario & Wario on the SNES in their game. Ubisoft have creative freedom to work with the Mario series, but they obviously will not ask for deep cuts of characters. Also the games are beautiful, visually they have way more depth and interesting imagery than New Super Mario Bros.

Hello again! Whilst Im here, Im still not convinced yet for Miyamoto disliking stories; it is such a baffling thing to say, and is as ridicolous as saying pro story. No, I dont think Miyamoto hate stories nor actively removing them, but at the same time, he does have a vision and preferences as it shows within his works as well. Zelda being a major title, Pikmin, the older Mario RPGs (though, I quite heavily disagree about the newer Mario and Luigi being bland as heck. They do have charm, and I love it.) Paper Mario series before Sticker Star and such. Obviously, we do not know the higher archy of Nintendo. I find the granted information that is contrasted to the pubkic is very little, but what I can say is that Intellegence System does indeed have full creative control, or almost. Miyamoto doesnt necessarily need to be *in* this IP, as this is moreso a Nintendo/Law thing. Whilst you are right that Miyamoto doesnt care, we also need to put in mind that this is a period where everything was safe interms of IPs. Howbeit, Miyamoto might have a hand in this, the newer Mario titles are now changing for the better, and the obvious is Odyssey, Luigis Mansion 3 (love this masterpiece) and the Mario and Rabbids series. Speaking of which, Mario and Rabbids Sparks of Hope does actually have a good story and characterization for certain characters, which surprised me. Yes, it is not the deepest but that is something that Miyamoto sort of had in hand. For Mario and Rabbids Kingdom Battle, however, I wont speak of the story but it is simple and makes sense, but what I want to actually speak of is how this game is made; I highly recommend reading the interviews for this game as it shows that Miyamoto had a quite some heavy hand in this title. He allowed it because it actually was fun, weird and creative. Lastly, the past doesnt last for longz and we are entering a new era for Miyamoto and Nintendo; with the Mario film and how brilliant and creative it was (at least for a hardcore Mario fan like me, that is) and the absolute genius of Odyssey as well as the upcoming New 2D Mario gamez it seems that Miyamoto is opening up more and more. My point is this: It depends on Miyamoto on what he wants in his game, and it seems that Narrative is the least one, but my problem with the whole stupid "Anti" and "Pro" Narrative stuff is that it is waaaay out of proportion for Miyamoto. And i would argue that this suggestion of "without" a story wouldnt do much, because Miyamoto himself called the game boring at its second (and last) play testing for the game. I dont think he entirely has the most hands when it comes to releasing a project, nor he no longer have any hands on Intellegence system. He checka from here and there but he doesnt say anything otherwise. He might no longer care for Paper Mario and he might be a partial blame, but the entire blame? I would argue it is more on Tanabe when he finally had his creative control. Miyamoto does care for his projects, even if it is indirect like DK Country Troopical Freeze as well as Mario and Rabbids, Galaxy 1 and 2, 3D World, Pikmin, Zelda, older Star Fox series and so on. One small note to mention is that Chris Pratt casting wasnt all Miyamoto. Nintendo always picks the safest option, which honestly, Im fine with. Chris Pratt worked very well, even if it was a corporate move. Edit: My entire point here is that Miysmoto doesnt hate narrative (which is a stupid thing to think about) nor does he actively want stories. Moreso, a preference or a slight care for the series, evident with Zelda and Pikmin.

I don't understand peoples obsessions with stories in games. Yes you can have them and they can be good, but if a game doesn't have one that doesn't make it any less of an art piece.

And do you think we Zelda fans never had anything to complain about? How many times did decisions get a backlash?? Miyamoto himself heard the unfortunate experiences from some of those decisions, regreted them, and changed course, every time. And if those decisions for Paper Mario aren't working, then either you are as unified as Zelda fans, or don't expect any changes. Since you're actually a very vocal niche, Nintendo and Miyamoto have zero reason to change any course, and he's not the one to blame, and especially not disrespect. And I'll say one last thing: Disrespecting him is EXACTLY why I don't join in and add my voice to the cause. I actually agree with the gripe. It's this stinking group of fans I enormously detest. You all handle this POORLY. I hope Paper Mario stays how it is just to spite you and your sect. Congrats on rallying us to your cause.

Dude Miyamoto is GOD