Watch the full episode with Joe here - kzfaq.info/get/bejne/aZ-HrJWnyNvJZqM.html

We are making a world we don't belong in.

I’m from Japan. "Herbivore" (or 草食男子=Herbivore Boy/Guy)" is not a term that describes men with feminine aesthetics - it’s a term used to describe men with passive attitudes in regards to dating and the pursuit of a romantic/sexual partner. Looking like a male K-pop star is considered attractive by Japanese Gen-Z standards, and plus, one can look like that and still be quite assertive when it comes to dating. Being pale, skinny and having longer hair does not a Herbivore Boy make. Culturally, Japanese (East Asian) women have always been expected to be (or at least act) docile, submissive, passive.. basically “seen, not heard”. However, the huge economic bubble the country experienced in the '80s and the passing of the Gender Equal Employment Opportunity Law, greatly shifted traditional mentality around gender roles and changed it for good. As Japanese women became more independent, they became much more assertive in private as well as in romance; J-pop culture followed in the footsteps of Hollywood and started to show women being more forward and open about relationships/sex; women dated more and experienced relationships before marrying their romantic partners, and arranged marriages (where one would be paired off with someone from a similar socioeconomic background/status) became extremely rare. Fast forward to the 2000’s when Japan’s economy started to slowly recover before it crashed again in 2008: The early '00s were a time when Tokyo’s nightlife flourished, especially around the new urban developments in Roppongi (a business and nightlife district for Yuppies and handsomely paid expats; i.e. Goldman Sachs, Lehman Bros, Hedge funds, Google, TV stations, all had offices there). The area was the place to be after work, and bars and restaurants were filled with pretty girls from all parts of the country who were out on the hunt to find investment bankers and tech founder millionaires. Not so coincidently, “Sex and the City” became a cultural sensation amongst young Japanese women living in big cities. These women popped champagne, dined wagyu steak, and went after whatever and whoever they wanted. This is when the term “Carnivore Girls” was invented and became popular. As more women became assertive in romance and at trying to land the best possible partner they could find (=richer, taller, funnier, better looking, better educated, more suave, etc), the shyer/more passive men who were without any of these particular strengths mentioned above, found themselves quite lost. This probably also has a lot to do with Japanese men historically never having to do much in terms of pursuing women. In the past, all they had to do was get a decent degree from a decent school, have a stable job, earn an average income, and voila, a marriage would be arranged for them. With no game and no strong urge to pursue women including the ones they were attracted to, they retreated into a world of their own, ultimately removing themselves from the “mating" market. Henceforth, they became known as “Herbivore Boys”, the counterpart to "Carnivore Girls". ***FYI: Herbivore and a Hikikomori are totally different things. Hikikomori often have social anxiety due to being bullied mercilessly at school, and refuse to partake in IRL society period, including being a part of the workforce, not just dating. Some have not left their bedroom in years. As a result, they are more active online, immersing themselves in the virtual world like gaming, anime, VR etc. Those who are intensely into anime and anime porn etc are called Otaku, probably similar to what Reddit calls weebos(?), and may live in their mother's basement.

I hope we don't end up creating an underclass of sexless men... *"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"*

Chris is going to dominate the market with this jawline and in depth knowledge of dating psychology

Some of this stuff is so depressing. Ignorance is bliss.

Dating is a major mess now. It feels like a job interview. You can just tell they're not actually attracted to you within 5 mins. I'll be done with it soon I think.

Dating died when social media replaced men.

I believe the issue is marrying beyond your 30s. When people beyond 30 want to get married they don't want to build a life together, you want to add them to the life they've built already. Marrying younger means building a life together, means having a relationship based on shared core values. It means walking through life together as you both grow.

9:56 Hikkikomori is the word he was trying to recall. It means "to draw inward" and is the term used to describe young men in Japan that have totally withdrawn from Society. Japan may have been the first to give this demographic a name, but other countries are starting to recognize this problem as well. Society as a collective is failing their young boys/men and it's heartbreaking.

The thumbnail is enough to devastate me. I’ve fallen in love online and it felt like the movie ‘Her’. Being alone is constant sadness amidst the other joys I get out of life but I’m not going back online after 8 years trying on and off. It used to be fun, now it’s simply putting yourself forward to be abused. And my male friend who uses it says most of the female profiles are fake and/or sex workers looking for business. I’m 38 and I think I’m going to be alone. I haven’t been approached in person for my number in many, many years.

12:48 "Let's look at the potential dating pool that I have... there's like 3 guys." 3 high-performing guys... who are already married and/or socially weird. Everyone is either sex-less, disappointed, or resented by someone. Oh, the human condition. The older I get, the more I appreciate The Joker's philosophical inquiry of, "Why so serious?" This shit is too absurd to take too seriously

The modern internet dating industry is a failure.

I’m 26, 6’2, make 70k a year, good savings/no debt, wealthy parents, educated, decent looking/in shape, looking for long term relationships only and have been single for nearly two years. The argument made here is so accurate for me. It’s been difficult finding mutual attraction at all.

Too many women are trying to keep up with the Kardashians.

So much for romance and faithful love. I think we need to take a breath. It might be better to be celibate to avoid how depressing this is. It's all very clinical. This Convo leaves out love. People have lost what it means to love. The decline of western civilization.

I also feel that mental illness is a major factor in dating issues. The high levels of general anxiety, depression and frustration are discouraging dating by preventing participation. Personally I feel this fundamentally starts with nutrition. Whether obese or not, highly processed foods containing vegetable oils, sugar and grain affects mood and rational brain function. We need to get back to eating whole foods - preferably a diet high in fatty meat. The improvement is mental wellness and physical health would improve dating dramatically. But this is one factor in this multi factorial phenomenon

It wasn’t so much that women were held back in the job market Chris! What careers were around 150 years ago. Mainly dirty and dangerous jobs, not office work.

“Success is peace of mind, which is a direct result of self-satisfaction in knowing you made the effort to become the best of which you are capable.” -John Wooden

Just found your channel, amazing content, I will have to binge now for a few weeks straight 😄 thanks man!

Luv this show! Chris does a great job of breaking down complex subjects into easy to understand segments! It’s much easier to consume for the broader audience.

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

I think a lot of people will realise in later life that accepting a partner of a lower standard than what they were conditioned to accept would have been something they wish they could have done. It’s too late at that point though. And there’s potentially a lot of time to regret it. We have all been brainwashed to think we deserve things that we simply don’t by modern society.

I just cant seem to get with today's dating, I'm not a typical zombie on my phone and feel like people are so out of tune with reality due to this

I am so sick of being constantly reminded by dating apps, KZfaq videos, and women in general that I am, as a high earning, yet average looking, 33 year old man, basically invisible... Selected out by evolution.

Dating is annoying and a few years ago I reasoned out that I wasn't gonna get the type of relationship I wanted, soi just stopped trying entirely and honestly it's been no big deal. Plenty of time to do the things I enjoy. If you've got a lot of interests, no biggie.

It's true and covid made that worse too. Tons of good looking men are super alone and lonely (they may have other flaws, not tall enough, or whatever). And tons of high status men who don't have the looks, are also super lonely. Some are also single dads, alone.

Wonderful analysis! Terribly enjoyable to listen to this discussion!

I've been single most of my life, had some awful experiences, it just puts you off trying to find someone. Given up on dating sites and apps, very hit and miss ( more MISS than hit ! ) it's just difficult to meet people when you're in your 40's, too old for conventional meeting places (night clubs etc) what are your choices ? Never go out with someone who you work with, don't hassle people at the gym, what are your options.....apart from try and make the most of your life on your own.

Woman may have to change too if they really want to be equals in a monogamous society. High earning women shouldn't ignore men who could be a good father, protector, etc just because they can't pay the bills. Just like men shouldn't leave their wives for a younger model. Assuming she makes enough money already, why is that a deal breaker? How is that not toxic?

This is fantastic. Its so smart and enlightening to discuss how the relationship between humans has such a larger purpose! And the miracle that we've been so in the dark about that. Bravo 👏

Still meeting older women with average appearance, low paying jobs, that want to marry millionaires.

Women have always worked some type of job at various points in their life. What changed is 18-35 year old women are now choosing to work full time, stressful office jobs instead of starting families at the best age to do so.

Well this is certainly terrifying for several reasons.

Fantastic topic, fantastic video.

Great episode, thanks chris. More of this content

Maybe we should just accept that lots of things about life sucks and that means that a huge amount of peoples relationships will suck. We get old, tragedy exists, almost everyone is deeply flawed, most people will struggle to find mates 🤷‍♂️

Sad thing is that in the current environment, the percentage of top tier men that have psychopathic tendencies is astronomical. In a ruthless industry, it self selects for such personality traits. So now, we go psychos being selected for breeding at the top of society, at the bottom of society, we have criminals reproducing.... and the average man is looked upon as boring, and only chosen as a second, third, fiftieth option (spending the rest of their lives knowing that they are not the number one choice, possibly even raising other men's children). It is truly a dystopian comedy. The agents of chaos are giving their fruits, and it is just the tip of the iceberg.

Excellent work, as per 👌💪

Sharing this Chris

The solution is for women to quit putting out when you've known someone a day/week. The users will be gone by then.

A major reason why everyone converted to Catholicism when it arrived on scene: it was really, really good for relationships between the sexes. The man must be publicly committed to the woman before sex. The man must be permanently bound to the woman after sex. The man could only have one sexual partner, unless she dies. The man is even supposed to sacrifice himself for his sexual partner. It genuinely solves all of the problems mentioned here. It even valorizes the sexless life of celibacy and put such men in service of society. And of course, it works the other direction as well. People’s lives were made much better when they became Catholic. Perhaps after a few generations of societal breakdown, people will rediscover the genius of the Catholic system their ancestors rejected.

Great discussion!

I do not feel bad for women. They can just deal with the unfairness of life and settle. Men are constantly told this - don’t be self-entitled; be realistic. It’s time women become equal and imbibe this philosophy, or just don’t complain.

ie they'd rather be in a king's harem than marry a peasant

this is incredibly insightful, love how the data is giving us a clear message on why men are opting out of dating

This is such an interesting topic to discuss, great podcast!

Being a 45 yo divorced mom, i gave up on dating. We hit it off have a few good dates and then they just stop talking, so i delete their number, then they text me months later. I dont need that or get an STD. It has been frustrating.

Great content. I just found you. It’s difficult to find smart conversations with people in real life. I once heard a women say that “all men are pigs”. I said “That’s an awful thing to say! You shouldn’t insult the pig because of what men do.” She laughed out loud. I got her number. We had a fling for a few months. Oink Oink.

Chris please! Have you seen the documentary “Future Shock”? I found it on KZfaq, made in 1972 and Features Olson Welles as the narrator. He speaks about the amount of information being consumed by our minds and how it’s affecting us in ways unknown. Considering there’s been nearly no talk on the subject since and it being 50 yrs later I feel it’s a subject that needs unraveling once again. I would love to see your take on this subject! I truly believe this could be a root problem for the way things are progressing. I question can our minds process the amount of information coming in and can we still progress in the same manner we did in the past? For millennium we’ve been simple beings then bam, tech hits us in the face! Is tech like everything else, good in moderation? Is tech a drug? The whole world seems to be mid party, high as fk on tech and speaking about it is like fk off man we’re still partying 🥳 peace guys✌️

Love the christmas tree in the background! We've taken down ours last week lol

Thank goodness I am married, am with a woman better than I deserve, and we have 3 children together (born in wed lock). However, I worry about our children's dating prospects when they are of age.

Real talk I'm just waiting for my sex drive to go down so I don't care that I'm alone. It's too much work for little reward to try to get women now. I just want an equal partner with average looks/fitness (I'm a 6'2 male very fit and above average earner) and who cares about me like I care about them. It feels like it doesn't exist anymore

I’ve been saying that the solutions will be unexpected and likely to be technological for a while. I see technology encroaching into the areas of “relationships” where human connections are disappearing. I think as soon as the artificial womb and the artificial egg become a reality we will finally see this reach it’s conclusion. As of now men have not started the “I don’t need a woman” chant the way women have. But I see that is a possible outcome as this situation becomes more pronounced.

Great interview

Excellent interview - Joe Henrich is boss

Oh, this was simple. Be attractive and have a good job/education.

The “men at the top” are a factor, maybe, but even a billionaire can only monopolize so many women (and there are only so many billionaires). I think the redistribution of wealth, by government, from males and to females that plays a bigger role. If women are financially supported by the government (that is, by taxes paid in majority by men), and they can get that support at no cost to themselves (without having to engage in the labor of being a wife and mother), it’s not going to motivate people to settle down with a reliable husband during their youth. It’s like if women had to pay a tax to subsidize the creation and maintenance of sexbots for men. It would diminish men’s desire to form relationships with women, WHILE costing the women a percentage of the fruits of their labor. It’s a government-enforced situation where you have to pay money to subsidize a system that works to your detriment. The welfare state is a method of removing resources from working-age young men in order to subsidize women and (other people’s) children.

Truly a fascinating discussion.

Great chat.

I was fat and awkward for most of my teenagehood and early adulthood, so as a young woman it was... Not easy to find a date, and of the men I went on a few dates with they were either super self conscious about their situation (single fathers) or they felt entitled to sex because they bought me a drink once. I never found success on dating sites (this was before tinder lmao) and it wasn't like I was looking for hot rich dudes or something, I know I'm not beautiful/hot and that I'm average, so I would hit up average dudes, and met some nice guys but they expected sex really fast and I just wasn't comfortable doing that. I only managed to find success outside dating sites and places where you could share hobbies or whatever, I met the love of my life that way and we married and had kids, and I've never been happier. I feel like... The dating sites/apps are just no good for most people- you can find someone willing to fuck you maybe but beyond that it was... Difficult to find someone interested in something long term.

Women between 40-45 are starting to go through menopause which has a huge affect on mental health

There are also 8 men for every 1 woman on tinder ( I believe in the UK). It’s not 1:1 ratio for users in tinder. This reaffirms men’s beliefs about themselves or their low self esteem. The apps are for profit so reaffirming these beliefs increases the chances that these men will buy premium subscriptions

Anti depressants have absolutely nothing to do with not having a man

I think what is happening is, right now, we have a generation of women who were pushed and prompted by their families (mostly mothers) and environment to be as good or better than the men in their environment. In the '60's, this created a whole generation of women who forgot that they only have a certain amount of time to reproduce. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. And just because your mother wasn't able to get her PhD (which was most likely due to her aptitude not opportunity), doesn't mean you have to live HER life for her! As a women, I can tell you, men are VISUAL creatures. A 45 year old women that can not reproduce is not something men are sexually attracted to regardless of being a low status male or not. Mother nature and gravity is cruel, you have stages in your life that give you opportunities. Those are choices you make. Unfortunately, a whole generation of women have chosen money or having children. 😔

Our country is in a downward spiral of moral decay. We are inviting God's judgment.

Right, THIS is 'equality'

Great convo

I think the marriage market will only change for the better once women realize a man's resourcefulness is much more important than his bank account. We need a partner with whom we can solve life's big and small problems with, not a slush fund. Solving problems with a mate over time reinforces relationship bonds like soldiers who served together. You can't bond as strongly with a man who will just "fix it" for you by writing a check.

In Japan, they call those loner men 引きこもり(hikikomori), which translates to something like "being pulled inward". They don't talk to other people, and basically never leave their house/room.

Seriously, it's not something I'm looking forward to, but sex robots is going to be easily a trillion dollar industry.

Intelligent discussion. Rare by today's standards.

if a chief in a hunter gatherer tribe had more than 3 women the rest of the guys in the tribe might be pretty angry about it, chief wouldn't last long methinks

The thing is those lower tear men still got to pay for the women/single moms and their kids through the taxes.

That guy is not in a rush to throw away that Christmas-tree :D

The crazy part is that its not even polygamy. These females make themselves a second and third option only to remain single forever. So most people seem to be losing out in this modern dating scheme

This would have been nice to understand in my early 20s. 😩

Great discussion w a legit scientist

Oh Great! We have finally (last year, in 2022) the discussion we were having in PUA communities back in early 2000s!

it's only gonna get worse, put your seat belts on.

After looking at all of this on an evolutionary scale, I can’t imagine that I’ll ever be able to commit to a woman. Seeing how women are now after being emotionally fried and alpha widowed, I just can’t give any genuine interest toward the idea.

Quit the dating apps and meet real live people. Life occurs in person, not behind a screen. The same person that you'd be fine with in person is often the same person you'd reject when you go through your list of 'options' in an app. Funny that the dip in male sex occurs right when the smart phone came out. That's not a coincidence. Ditch the apps.

With these clips you need to put a link in the description to the full interview.

The word you're looking for at 9:50 is 'hikikomori'. Side note: 'Welcome to NHK' is a great anime on the topic

People need to stop measuring their lives and especially other people's lives based on income. If they can't learn that lesson, they don't deserve to be happy with a partner. Let them be loveless.

Finally someone on KZfaq who speaks my language

Q. Why is finding Mr.Right/Ms.Right in the ‘developed’ world 🌎 difficult? A. You’re up against over 20+ years of fear 😧 based social conditioning. Your own, and everybody else’s. You have won half the battle when you stop ✋ believing your own thoughts 💭

I really appreciate the injection of humour in this chat because, wow it's a heavy topic and if I didn't experience those laughs (thank you), I would've felt too sad to continue watching 😅 The AI replacement of human beings and emotions is a rabbit-hole of a topic - fascinating though, with a lot to be explored! Thanks for bringing in wonderful guests with thought-provoking insights.

One solution is fostering inter-generational relationships to expand one's social network. These take time and energy, but it works.

Hello Chris! Can you counsel us some book about this topic? Thanks a lot

Women in previous generations weren't necessarily happy with their partner, as they often married young, before they knew much about themselves or life in general. However, in many countries divorce simply wasn't an option, so they remained stuck with their husbands, even where they realised they were their intellectual superior.

I think the Japanese word you’re looking for is “hikikomori”.

Can’t wait to share this vid with my gf

Namasté! Love from India. // A fan of Dr. Peterson's.

To simply put: men need more money

Full time, single dad, raising my two boys. Their mom left us a little over 5 years ago. I've been on one date and been out once in that time. I'm done with relationship, dating and will never be married again. I am single and happy. Love, affection and focus comes from my kids. Devotion comes from my dog. Drive, ambition and motivation come from work and trading (my money making hobby). Anything else I need from a woman can be rented for an evening with $40-$80 in appetizers and drinks - but I ain't interested enough to pursue that. The reward is not worth the effort. My favorite part of coffee in the morning watching the sun come up...is there is no bitching, gripping or complaining. I am free and I am happy...

Joe needs to specific about which tribes in Africa. In some cultures here, after initiation, men are given land, some animals and a home is built. So they did not start from zero. Some still practice this to date. The economic shift due to more women in the workforce, hence shift in market votes towards the service economy plus externalities, add the internet has led to an exacerbation of hypergamous filtering towards - cultural breakdown has allowed the extreme sides of women's instinct. So males who are fittest, genetically & monetarily have the best pick. However, as with markets, this is different all over the globe i.e. hypergamy is a feature - in some parts of the world there are anthropological checks due to culture.

Evolutionary Biologist here too, and i have concluded: it do be like that

Deleted my dating app yesterday, instantly feel better

To speak to the last parts of the video, I think we have a warped perception of history influenced by people heavily biased toward feminist ideology. We perceive women who have lived in non modern times as oppressed and such but maybe there was a utility to having women play out the roles the way they did in the past. Maybe just maybe these people were a bit more grounded in the dichotomy of relationships, just without knowing how to express it with scientific terms. But they structured their man-woman dichotomy based on ideas we are now starting to discover scientifically. Maybe they were on to something and maybe we’ll revert back to it; not out of emotion or ideology, but out of utility and the necessity for stability.