Hello you beauties. Get a free list of my 100 favourite books - chriswillx.com/books/ Here’s the timestamps: 00:00 The Idea of Digital Modesty 06:14 How Phones Have Created a Surveillance Society 11:59 The Danger of Political Opinion on Social Media 18:31 Why the Left Wouldn’t Date OnlyFans Subscribers 21:17 The Message Behind the Barbie Movie 24:30 Is Our Culture Anti-Family? 29:33 The Crisis of Masculinity & Femininity 40:28 Why The Trad Wife Movement Won’t Work 47:39 How Divorce is a PsyOp 52:33 Mary’s Thoughts on Surrogacy 59:13 The Problem With Matt Walsh & the Right 1:11:57 The Ambivalent Role of Right-Wing Women 1:19:13 Where to Find Mary

“I don’t know why people are so keen to put the details of their private life in public; they forget that invisibility is a superpower.” - Banksy

“Travel and tell no one, live a true love story and tell no one, live happily and tell no one, people ruin beautiful things.” ― Kahlil Gibran

I'm an older millennial and grew up with privacy and even thinking giving your credit card over the internet with amazon wasn't safe. I take photos on my phone but don't post them on social media. Even when Facebook came out I found it intrusive to post your family photos online for anybody to see. How times have changed, for the worst I believe.

I deleted all social media about 7 months ago and the benefit it has had on my mental health has been incredible.

The problem is not the taking of pictures. The problem is addiction to social media.

It’s insane, walking down the street as a man and feeling like everyone is a little wary of you, vs walking down the street as a man with a dog and suddenly everyone is your friend

I got rid of social media in 2016 and never looked back. If you're sharing your private life on social media and not making money, it's a waste of your time and effort. And people are putting a lot of effort and time into it, even if they've convinced themselves they aren't. I never understood the draw of social media, so it was easy for me to turn away from it. Some people can't step away, unfortunately.

I really appreciate Mary Harrington. She clearly values her roles as a mother and a spouse, but refuses to back down on freedom for women - as if women are individuals with their own thoughts and desires (who'd have thought?). I have a wife and two daughters and I really appreciate her work championing a reasonable, normal path for people who just want to have a good normal life. Keep up the great work Mary, and thanks for having her on Chris.

As a woman is nice to hear Mary, someone who embraces being a woman, a mother but also has intelligent opinions about feminism and what’s going culturally, I’m personally tired of the extreme debates of left and right, I don’t consider myself in any political party, this conversation makes me embrace more the idea of talking about each topic specifically in a detailed way

It blows my mind this stuff even needs to be said. Our society has become handicap.

It seems the real problem is how much humans worry about what everyone else thinks. In my experience, the more you create your own narratives, the more you establish and lean on your own values, and the more you listen to your own intuition instead of looking outward for acceptance, worth, and focus, even when living and working in the world you don’t get pushed and pulled around by the ever-changing, ever-demanding populace opinion and nonsense.

I remember going to Rome on a high school trip 25 years ago. I had a disposable camera and I had to take photos of everything. After the second camera I had no money anymore, so I just had to look at things with real attention. Very chill experience.

"Everyone has the temptation to share their life on the internet" No! I always asked myself why so many people are so crazy to do that.

I’ve listened to this for 5 minutes, and my mind is already getting blown about how this isn’t just complete common sense to everyone.

"Liberal feminism has a mother-shaped blind spot." Oof. Good observation.

"Pregnancy doesn't just create a baby it creates a mother" What a freakin quote! A+ stuff here!

I'm a guy and for a long time I was super cautious around kids because I felt like I wasn't allowed to like kids. Now, idc. One of the things I learned (especially from single mother friends) parents like it when their kids get along with other people and other people are able to enjoy their kids. Asking them questions is almost always going to be fun/funny. Obviously time and place, right? But I've never met a parent make me feel weird or bad about greeting their little humans :)

People revealing every detail of their lives to the public started in the late 80s with Oprah, Phil Donahue, and Geraldo. People used to keep their business to themselves.

I love Mary's hardline stance against surrogacy. She is 100% right about the duty of care for a infant being pushed aside for the desires of adults.

Until like 2 years ago peope were encouraged and taught by social media gurus to "be authentic" and share everything about themselves online to "connect" and be relatable to with their audience. I've seen people and micro influencers take this advice way to far and exspose way to much about themselves. The saddest cases are when I saw new content creators spill their guts to their small audience with their really dark personal stories to only receive crickets and indifference in return.

I love that Mary Harrington is getting ever closer to full concordance with the orthodox Catholic position on so many things - eg surrogacy, division of labour, complementarity of the sexes, view of marriage as covenental not contractual etc - using her own intellect and especially, her experience as a wife and mother. She's an absolute gift to women - and a gift to women is a gift to men and children.

The dog vs. baby discussion reminded me of a conversation I had 7-8 years ago with the wife of a work colleage who had moved from the UK to the US. She said the thing she most appreciated about the US was that is was very pro-child while the UK was the opposite. I asked her what she meant, and she said in social gatherings, kids were ignored or pushed aside so adults could interact amongst themselves. In the US, by contrast, she said people more often centered activities around the kids while the adults chatted on the sidelines. No idea if the UK description was accurate, but how she described things in the US certainly was.

Mary Harrington on Modern Wisdom. Absolutely brilliant combo. I just wish this didn't drop on the night I have to focus on finishing my coursework!

About the Anti-family section --- I know for me, I get annoyed with some parents who act like they are the FIRST EVER "Mom" and FIRST EVER "Dad" and "Look at me... I'm a Mom"... like, get over yourself -- do you think you got here through osmosis? That's what irritates me. And also those parents who do not parent ... so you got kids misbehaving all over the durn place and the parents think it's cute... it's not cute. I appreciate parents who teach their children manners -- some parents act like manners are a foreign thing.

If someone is posting on their social media about the date, while on a date, you should end the date immediately.

After taking a photo of my 6 year old daughter the other day she asked me if I was going to put it on Instagram. I said 'no, why would I put it on Instagram?' (I haven't posted anything for over a year and a half so it's not a regular occurrence) Her reply was 'so you can get famous'. We had a chat about why that's not something I would want and the negatives that come as a byproduct of having a lot of followers. Can't say I'm looking forward to the time when she's old enough for her own phone and social media. 🙈

I was 41 when I had my first child, and she was the first baby I ever held.

Great stuff. Mary Harrington is becoming one of my go to people in trying to understand the world today. Brilliant mind, decent and ethical also too.

On the topic of Dad bonding with baby. My husband went through this really hard when our son was born. No one told him it would take a while to form that bond. We both would agree wholeheartedly with what Chris said. Give it 6-9 months. They have such a fantastic relationship now. ❤

"My tongue is my enemy". The Old Testament warns.

58:41 - life is definitely harder when your mom is incapable of loving you right from the start. My children know that I love them. They are much happier children than I was.

Mary is easily the best commentor on social and cultural issues. it's not even close

i dont understand how people function in todays world. maybe im the weak one, i dont have any social media. i only watch youtube and using my phone for shopping and contacting some people close to me and it’s tiresome already for me

This is getting more and more imporatnt as technology is intrated further and further into our lives. It's quite sad to see this rush for attention at the risk of privacy/dignity.

I could listen to Mary for hours.

I’ve seen women post pictures of their deceased babies; talk about their miscarriage, and other private matters that should be for family and close friends only to know. I know it is so sad to happen, but in reality I don’t know you nor care. I’ve got my own serious personal problems to deal with…

I’m an older millennial and I completely agree there’s too much overhearing online and it started making me question the legitimacy of a lot of it. For example on KZfaq I enjoy watching animal videos, documentaries nature stuff. But lately it’s been feeding me a lot of these oh look, this person saved this dog are oh look at how abused this animal was before this person took it in and I as somebody who has taken an animals off the street I never recorded that. In the moment I’m too concerned thinking about the animal and the moment and the thought of recording myself to show other people. It never crosses my mind so I have to ask. Are these people setting up horrible fake instances to record themselves to to make money or are they actually helping. Now they may actually be helping. I may be completely wrong, but something about it something about advertising yourself helping instead of just doing it, rubs me the wrong way.

This made me so happy when this popped up! I’m in the middle of reading Mary’s book Feminism Against Progress, love her!!

She kinda just skims over the male issues when Chris raises them. Almost ignoring them and saying right let's get back to women.

We, in the past, did not have access to our reflection. It was a custom, for instance, for my grandmothers to be given a hand mirror at age 16. Before that, they (more or less) didn't have much of a clue. I think about that sometimes. In comparison to today's 'image conscious' culture. 5 baby snaps maybe 3 snaps from grade school --- 3 photos from teen years to 70. (Even, when I was growing up, all the mirrors were placed 'adult height'... so... until I was taller than 5' 3" inches, what did I know? Upon reflection?) I think about that sometimes.

I have been thinking a lot about the constant selfie genre and then the historical fact of, say, my grandparents (from the 20s) who would take photos while trekking and camping and playing along the shores of the Great Lakes or Coney Island or at home or special occasions, and then my parents who took photos of us kids from the 50s and beyond. I'm grateful to have those old photos. And I remind myself when I'm out with friends that a few photos of a good time or event will be nice to have and I'll look back on them and will be glad for them. But I struggle with the age of constant selfies dumps to social media for every little thing in our lives. I'm like, Please, get out of my face.

I'm thankful that I'm older and grew up with cameras, because I think of my phone as a camera, not a social media posting tool. So I still take photos for the memory, not to post it. That's a vastly different mindset.

Hearing this woman say living a traditional life is cringe was cringe. Then gives an example of a man leaving his woman alone with a child. That's a nontraditional male. You need both sides to be on the same page for any life to work traditional or modern

Mary Harrington is brilliant

I personally don't need Mary Harrington to explain to me what should be common sense, but I guess its a sign of the times.

Have kids. If you are worried about how you will do raising them, you are already ahead of the curve. Nothing else I do actually really matter besides my kids. I can make the world a better place by putting better humans into the world.

I’m deeply grateful I got through young adulthood before camera phones and immediate internet access and social media existed. Phew.

I hate how some people view me as suspect because I don't share my private life, lol. Especially women. I've watched women become noticeably anxious when I tell them I don't have social media. Some of them have flat out asked me what am I trying to hide.

I have found that walking around in rural Australia with my toddler is like walking around with a local celebrity. So many people stop to wave or say hello, and men are so much kinder to us by default than women. Maybe it's just where I live, but I have never experienced anything but kindness toward my toddler, even mid tantrum.

The more confident you are the less you feel the need to post on social media.

A lot of this can be avoided for the "normal person" by only sharing with people you know and curating your followers....if you're using social media for business and public relations thats a whole different world.

Men don’t want to look at kids for fear of being seen as a predator . Women don’t look because it can turn on a maternal clock and they don’t want to emotionally go there . I been there myself .

I love people who are effortlessly able to zoom out and contextualize. This is, in and of itself, in the current culture wars an affront to both sides. Which says alot about the utter futility of waging these wars. Entrenchment will not provide the outcomes you seek.

Chris and Mary are always a great podcast matchup

8:33 People didn't relentlessly take photos of just themselves until that was made easy by cell-phone cameras, which pretty much coincided with the ascent of social media. Selfies provided the motivation to use social media, and social media provided the motivation to take selfies.

Totally agree……I just don’t see the need to expose your private life. It’s called private for a reason. The only reason can be turbo charged narcissism and the need to show off one’s “amazing” life. No chance for introspection. No chance for depth of feeling.

Mary Harrington is wonderful. Thank you

The nature of direction the line of questioning took halfway through was brilliant. It was exactly what I was wondering. And you kept at it, in line with my own curiosities. Thanks for continuing to lean in!

On Matt Walshism: you may have a valid point to make, but in using that example you didn't make it. Matt is just as staunchly against men using porn as he would be on women making it.

I love this. There have been multiple things I'll share personally with one person and I've been surprised the number of times the response has been, "you should share this online." Why? Isn't the point of a conversation between two people meaningful because of the trust and relationships developed with each different friend or person in our life?

Mary Harrington has some very interesting perspectives that I had not thought of. Great interview. Thanks!

The irony of this conversation is not lost on us

Surrogacy section: plenty of eight month pregnant women share that man's fear and guilt about thinking they don't love their baby yet. Plenty of them give birth and go home with their new baby not feeling a bond. It takes time to develop because it's the care of the baby that makes a parent/baby, baby/parent bond-- not the physiology of pregnancy. The expectation that women should automatically feel a bond by the act of gestation and that not having that bond will undermine their baby's ability to be an "integrated person" does more harm than good.

Here's a simple idea. Set your profile to private, only have people that you care about follow you and posts what makes you happy

Love the conversation. This is actually a pragmatic pathway for a balanced healthy real and online aspect of our life for especially for someone who at least tries to be conscious of his/her reality. MODESTY in general is hard to understand let alone practice it in this increasing global western culture, but i would say it is worth a try to have some level of it. We got to stop to projecting our perception because it is foolish as it is universally subjective and tied to a moment in space-time to say the least and we all know it but still fight against it. Just Stop, let the universe perceive us/you the way it wants to, not the way we/you want to. Control is somewhat a delusion and denial of complexity of the fabric of this reality. Thanks Chris for all this. Looking forward ...

It’s all perspective & Self Intellect. Oneself may care more about what the masses say than another person would. This causes the idea of shutting out the world to be normalized, when we are supposed to be in harmony & confidence within one another…but that’s just not the life we live is it.

Mary is spot on. Hers is a rare voice of reality and reason that really exposes the agendas embedded into most popular commentators' talking points.

It really boils down to a few points: How seriouslly the person takes the social media???? How well grounded is the person in their own self esteem?????/ And if the person does, or does not give a shit????? As well as to how seriously the person, views themselves in the context of social media?????

I agree with Mary on so many points. Because her ideas on parenting and male/ female roles are so important , I wish she could slow down and stop interrupting you .

I love Mary’s ideas.

She’s so correct about babies and crisis of humanity…

It took her almost 20 years to figure this out when social media was born? Anyone with common sense realised this decades ago. Especially posting lives of children, so obviously why you shouldn't.

Before social media, before internet access, those selfies would be the equivalent of us all walking around in public showing a picture book of ourselves, unsolicited.

*All of the topics are interesting and educational and I love their takes /her insight.* *I thought about buying her book and that Podcast made me consider it again.* *''Divorce is really good for the GDP, turning them into two separate households'' is a very powerful sentence* 1:06:25 _Very well spoken._

52:42 - because as a mother who carried her child, you know how deeply you get attached to your baby growing inside you. How you worry if you haven’t felt them move. How you talk to them so they can hear your voice. How every time you eat, you’re thinking about the baby, not just yourself. How you have to buy special pillows to sleep with bc otherwise you can’t sleep. For months of your life, you live your life with the baby always on your mind. Because you have to. The baby is there with you always, constantly.

I have no idea who this guest is but I can already tell she has an extreme personality 10 mins in. And it’s not because she doesn’t post stuff on sm. Generally it’s solid advice.

Oooooooh YES! I'm not so into the fitness guests you like Chris. But I love the thinkers you invite!

I like what she had to say in the beginning about "this moment is just for me and my loved ones" because I feel the same way. People over share in general. I only scroll facebook every once in awhile, but sometimes there's somebody sharing something and I'm like "....you prooooobably shouldn't be public about that.....".

The set is absolutely gorgeous. The lighting is on point. This is so good.

Yeh my read on the Barbie movie from minute one was it was critiquing feminism. It criticized redpill too but ultimately parodied them both. The ending was deliberately pointless/aimless which I realize after some time paints a good picture of the modern situation exactly. It's whatever and individuals have to figure out and negotiate this themselves and who knows, shrug shrug shrug.

Chris Williamson, "It's impossible to be better than a dog." Mary Harrington, "You're only saying that 'cause you don't have kids." Me, "She sounds like someone whose children are not yet teenagers." Dogs are awesome. Dogs love you more than you can imagine. Dogs love you more than you can love. Dogs will lead you out of the most horrible pits of hell or die trying. If you even show your dog the slightest care you will never know greater loyalty in your life. Kids are great in a lot of ways. They're also far, far, far more trouble and annoyance than a dog. My kids are observably better than most and they still annoy the living hell out of me on a daily basis. The boys will argue over the stupidest things because they're just loaded with too much testosterone and don't know what the hell to do with it. The girl... Oh, dear God... She's been rolling her eyes since she was about eight! No one can possibly understand her perspective, just ask her. These are kids that I personally spent months educating on logic, reasoning, and critical thinking. Months of videos, discussion, lectures, you name it. That, along with my personal policy to NEVER lie to my children about ANYTHING (which sounds stupid in a lot of cases but sometimes the answer is, "You're not really old enough and you have never experienced the things you have to have experienced to understand the answer to your question and the truth would just confuse you more." Which is, in fact, the truth.) But when teenage hormones start showing up... It's all gone. They were LESS trouble when they were in the so-called, "terrible twos." That's a total crock, by the way. Two-year-olds are adorable and only get angry when you don't let them try to help or they have to take a nap. LITTLE kids are charming, adorable, HONEST, and totally loving. Teenagers? Not so much... The trouble is that teenagers know a hell of a lot more than they knew when they were six and they know it. The trouble is that they don't understand just how much MORE there is that they just have not the first clue about. They won't get it until they're about THIRTY! God have mercy on you because teenagers have none. The smarter they are the more of a pain in the ass they'll be because they'll know they're smart. My youngest is absolutely brilliant. Mechanical aptitude, math, and physical coordination are all well above average. He is a HUGE pain in the ass. You will never do anything harder than raise your own children. The rewards, however, are incalculable. The sense of accomplishment from having produced a sane adult human being is better than anything else you'll ever do. But if you aren't absolutely DETERMINED to raise fantastic kids into strong, independent, well-adjusted human beings GET A FUCKING DOG. There is no greater responsibility than that of bringing another human being into the world. Accept it or get sterilized. Seriously. If you think you'll just send them off to school and go about your own life as if nothing has changed since you made a new human being come into the world GET A FUCKING DOG because the schools are very definitely NOT interested in producing sane human beings and your children will become your worst nightmare. (Some of the teachers might have fantasies about fighting the system and actually helping children to understand the world but most of those have already either been fired or have simply surrendered and abandoned that dream.) If you think you're going to be a, "brave single mother," GET A FUCKING DOG (Or, more likely, twenty cats.) Children REQUIRE a mother AND a father. If you think otherwise you are a fool.

Nobody appreciates privacy until you have it taken from you. When you first start out getting hate mail is hard but eventually you grow to just not give a shit. If you care about what others think of you in a position like this you will never be happy.

I've always avoided sharing deeply personal stuff on social media, by instinct. When I first started using FB, I was surprised to see how personal a lot of people's posts were.

I mean if someone finds you a not suitable partner because of your opinions, isn’t that better to know sooner rather than later? Saves you wasting time. As far as shit-posting, that says more about character imo. And if folks use an anonymous account for that as it was implied they do, potential dates wouldn’t know anyway. Imo the polarization problem and intolerance to people deviating even a little from correct thinking is the problem. I agree with some of what she’s saying about not sharing intimate personal information. And she’s not wrong you take a risk posting political opinions. But the idea not posting them somehow improves your dating prospects? Like the massive polarization isn’t going to be a problem when you finally get into your opinions with the person? I’m dubious.

I stopped posting on my fb account after covid and I can't even tell you why because I was never really a person who regularly and religiously posted photos, etc in the first place. I don't bother with any of the other platforms either, one for me is certainly enough. In many ways I see social media as more restrictive than liberating I think I am sufficiently aware how social media works and the negative impact outweighs the positive for me. I believe that the internet is a great tool for many reasons but everyone should bear in mind it also brings potential danger/negativity into your life which anyone in their right mind would want to avoid like the plague. Freedom is being yourself, living your life and not having the need to tell all and sundry about it.

When I was living in the south in the America my kid got tons of attention everyone was so friendly and now that I’ve moved to the west coast my kid will say hi to people at the grocery store and people will just ignore her it makes me sad how indifferent people can be in cities.

I love Mary!! ❤ Hers was the best nonfiction book I read last year. Thanks for this conversation ✨

I don’t usually post selfies, but I’ll take a photo with people. I do take selfies every couple of years, as I age/ change to update my profile pic. That’s more of me accepting my age. I feel your profile pic should be rather recent.

I like the phrase "digital modesty" - I've been practicing something like this for years now. At the same time, I don't like the idea that we should morally pedestal this. Rather, it's a personal preference. If someone else wants to verbal diarrhea their emotional life into the cybersphere, or broadcast their ass cheeks, I genuinely think they should be free to do it. It's not my jam, but who cares? - it's their life.

Excellent interview. Mary's one sharp knife, my goodness, I'm pretty smart, but I had to listen to her 2X in some sections to absorb it all.

The part about talking to children is so sad, but something I definitely relate to.

Thanks for this conversation. I'm starting a KZfaq channel in 2024 and I've thought a lot about sharing my private life online.

I disagree about the Matt Walsh take. Everything she says she wants men to do to do their part are things Matt Walsh at least claims he completely believes in and does. I love Matt Walsh.

I would think that she's old enough to remember when people did indeed acknowledge, compliment, talk to other people's children in public spaces. That all came to an end, in the USA anyway, with the whole rash of therapy-triggered false memory incidents that led to child abuse hysteria and false charges brought against thousands of innocent child-care workers. That's when people became afraid to be kind to strangers' children, when elementary school teachers started being ordered not to hug their students, even when hurt or crying.

The fact that Mary is fully plugged in and runs because she can't be plugged in. She's an interesting and very human person. Respect. You don't find people, who do things, to prevent, themselves from, doing the things they, want to do

Digital modesty is so smart. It’s healthy to draw boundaries. Not everybody needs access to you all the time. Not everybody wants to see your selfies every minute of the day. We don’t need to know about your sex life or relationship issues. And I’d be extra careful about posting your kids. Way too many pervs on the internet. Ppl need to realize that it’s not real life. It’s just a snip it.. mostly a highlight reel. But it’s performative & addictive. It definitely disrupts intimacy & even mental health. I only have IG & recently deactivated my FB. Don’t have Twitter or tic toc or anything else. Don’t need it. I don’t post about family conflict or my kids personal business. I don’t post half naked pictures of myself either. That’s not the image I’m trying to project. I’m married. Don’t need that kind of attention. And I try not to post locations or any other personal info. The oversharing is outta control. I want no part of it.

I like this woman. She's as real as it comes. Good podcast.

Also, simply set your settings to private and why have a public profile? People 'want' the attention it seems to me! Only add close friends & family... Why add work colleges' etc?

Three months ago, you were nodding in agreement with Jimmy Carr when he said nobody should be allowed to tweet anonymously.