Thanks George! I'll keep grinding.

Thanks Mr. K! I really am glad that I chose not to tie myself to one particular version of this method, so that I'm free to interpret it myself and draw from multiple wells.

Guss I really appreciate it. Thanks so much. I really believe this makes things easier.

Thanks a ton Mark! There's a lot of information out there, but sometimes, it's not the easiest to understand. Just trying to figure it out and share it.

Thanks a bunch!

Much appreciated!

Much appreciated! I think he must've tried to eliminate the issues by going to extremes with his setup and swing. He set up so that all he had to do was draw a circle in his mind, and he took the variables out by reaching for the ball.

That's fantastic! Glad it works for someone other than just me, haha.

Thanks so much Brian and I totally appreciate the story. If there's one thing all this has taught me, across all the swing reviews, it's that getting too bogged down in mechanics and making yourself a textbook version of the swing model is just a killer. Ultimately, see the shot you want and keep trying to get out of your body's own way of figuring out how to make that shot happen. Your subconscious is so good at figuring it out for you.

Thanks J! How's the baby doing??? Hope you guys are all doing great.

@@GolfTestDummy she is doing really well and growing up fast. We are all good. Please keep these videos coming 👌🏾

Much appreciated Christopher. Best of luck to you also.

Thanks Mike 👍🏻

Thanks a bunch Blake. I'm not at the moment, but that's because I review lots of swings and drills, so I'm compelled to change, haha.

Hoping it helps Bill!

@@GolfTestDummy It already has, thanks!!

Hey Chad, hope I’m not bothering you but I had a question, on the downswing do you keep your right foot planted through the swing like Moe does, looks like you lift it pretty quick, just an observation, let me know, thanks!!!!

According to the Toddster he says it’s key to keep that right foot planted so your torso can rotate through

I need to work on that. I do have a tendency to let it lift early.

Oh yeah, great point. Can't have a knee jerk reaction and start thinking everything is wrong.

@@GolfTestDummy Yea after many many years of chasing a feel or tip when the current one seems to go wrong, a few years ago I made a conscious effort to just double down on the one that had been working even after having that horrible ball striking round or two. It has made a huge difference in both consistency and enjoyment of the game accepting that sometimes I just stink at it.

Thank so much! Grinding away, day after day.

Thanks a ton Kevin. So glad that the videos are being met by enthusiastic support. Feel and real are like 2 separate wings on the same bird. Both are necessary in order to fly.

@@GolfTestDummy exactly. You have to take the knowledge of the the real and use it the create the feel. Feel is real done right!

Good luck Ed! Let us know how it goes.

Well, the forward movement swing thought and actual shift forward through the ball worked. Compression, distance and accuracy all much better. Keep up the good work!

Great to hear Ed!!! Awesome.

Much appreciated! I try to keep the videos organized by playlists, like file folders. But I need to do a bit of maintenance to get the last couple of months videos categorized correctly. Thanks for watching and a 66 is beyond fantastic!

Thanks JD!

Honestly, I haven't noticed a big difference. Supposedly, they are tweaking spin rates , etc, but I need real updates. Landscape orientation, ability to play online with friends, and whatever tweaks they are making just aren't translating to driver for me and others.

What was the difference that you saw between the foot down versus the foot lifting.

@@GolfTestDummy With the heel down I lost about 25 yards of distance, and also could not get my hands leading the clubhead enough through impact. I also had backpain that disappeared after letting the heel come up as it naturally would in any other sport. After quitting this aspect of the heel down as taught by Graves I immediately improved both distance and accuracy thanks to Kirk's Setup for Impact swing.

I've watched myself back on video, and my best swings, best distance, and best consistency come when I left the foot come up. It's not flying off the ground, but it's not glued to the floor either.

I think it comes down to how the body is able to deliver shaft lean at impact. With the Junge / more conventional method with more hip rotation, the trail elbow can be behind the trail hip and the turn will deliver shaft lean. The trail arm is in a skipping the rock whipping motion. The interesting thing with the Graves / Moe / Trail Foot Down method, there is less hip rotation, so you need to get your trail elbow ahead of your trail hip at delivery in order to deliver shaft lean at impact. If your trail arm is skipping the rock in a whipping motion, it will lead to early release. It's actually more of a punching down the line type of feel that's required to preserve your wrist angles naturally for the desired shaft lean.

I plan on it. And you HAVE put up scores like that, lol. I watched you do it.

@@GolfTestDummy never for 18 holes though unfortunately. Well, not yet!

Moe was a special talent for sure.

Thanks Bill!

@@GolfTestDummy just had all my clubs equipped with jumbo max XL gripes. You know where I'm going, see you in Moe Land!!'

Haha, you know, I put one on the driver to try, but I'm honestly not sure if I'd like it on all clubs or not. And by the time you're spending 9 to 12 bucks per grip, I'd like to be sure.

@@GolfTestDummy the only clubs I don't have them on is my 54 & 58 degree wedges. Those are also the only clubs that are standard length. The rest of my irons are one length, gonna play this way for at least a year. I'm a natural one plane swinger anyway so I thought, why not, I played pretty good the last time I took this method on. Maybe I will put a few vids on it Just to say what I'm doing, not necessarily what others should do. Will give it the virgin round tomorrow.

Haha, thanks CK. Keep swinging and I'll do the same.

@@GolfTestDummy Don't mean to "sniff" on your enviable score. Just curiously asking, did you use h those JV short game techniques such as bump & run, bunker shots, right sided putting etc. Or that old "JV tool box" is left in the dark somewhere in your basement...

Haha, the dusty toolbox is a great visual. You know, everything I ever done is with me somehow. And I don't just mean I remember it. I mean, it's manifested in my game, even if only a small part. I think my chipping and pitching is very much still helped a ton by JV.

Wow, such a great question, because it trips a whole bunch of talking point dominoes. There's a few things I'd say. First, when I look at Moe in his setup, he's balanced, but as far as he stands from the ball, I would guess there is a tendency to get out on his toes a bit during his swing. Couple that with the fact that he's going down to get to the ball, and I bet that if he set up with the sweet spot aligned, by the time he made impact, he'd get weak shots off the toe. So my instinct is that he preset at address on the heel to prepare for that. Another thing is, your eyes can play tricks on you, so you have to be careful. If you are standing more over the ball, the position of clubhead and ball look one way, but move further back to where you're not standing over the ball, and that same club ball relationship will look completely different, because your viewpoint has changed. Kinda like when you're driving a car, and your mind imagines where your tires are. If you were to get in the passenger seat, you may feel like you're in a totally different place on the road. At the end of all this, Moe said something that sounded completely strange, but if you consider the way he was, then what he said makes total sense. He said, nobody should try his swing, or swing as he does. That they'd never hit the ball and it would be disaster. Most people probably think he's dead wrong, and that single plane is a great way to swing. But I don't think he was talking about single plane is a bad idea. I think he meant MOE'S swing, the one he had, was not a good idea. Because it was his. Unique only to him. And that everyone is different. Like fingerprints. Using his ideas and technique is fine, but at the end of it all, it has to be YOUR swing. Not his. So, the best advice I could give would be, forget the "textbook". Play around until you find the ball position that gives you the results you want, and then who cares if it matches what some expert says. Thats exactly how Moe came to be the best. By only doing what worked, and not necessarily what was "right".

@@GolfTestDummy Thanks a bunch for the insight, brother. I also think you’re spot on with the “feel” of driving forward. I recently tried that with my conventional swing….driving hard downward and toward the target to initiate the backswing and this generated a lot of compression and power. The rotation just happened as a byproduct. So I think there is definitely something to this feel of driving towards the target. Keep it up man…we’ll be following along!

Hmmmm. I could only describe it as my weight or my center of gravity moving toward the target. Anymore than a general sense of direction, and it gets too complicated for me.

You know, I need to put in a good vid showing those details. I never look at them, lol. I've never really paid much attention, but it does seem like a waste not using all of those tools. I'll work on that.

Haha. Thanks Larry! It's likely a blessing and a curse.

@@GolfTestDummy this, THIS! I’m blessed to be able to acclimate to just about every system and get to the ball, but I still can’t consistently keep that mojo I find for more than a few wks without it falling apart. Love your videos and you keep my hope alive.

Thanks a ton moto. Same here.

Thanks for the support and info. I've seen that video also. I'm 6'1" and I'm not sure if my hands are "big", but probably bigger than average. I have a jumbo grip on my driver, but haven't changed my other grips.

Thanks Jim, and you're absolutely right. When I'm teaching my daughter, I tell her to see the shot as if it's already happened, and then let your swing be a reaction to what's already taken place. If that's not the definition of getting away from too much mechanical thought, then I don't know what is.

@@GolfTestDummy I love listening to Todd Graves teach but always find myself thinking that Moe never thought what he did was complicated

I have the same exact thoughts.

@@jimmcewen9351 Moe also said nobody should learn his swing. I believe what he meant there was you should find your own swing and improve upon that. Many coaches say their system enables you to find your swing, but I think that’s oxymoronic. This is an idea, but maybe @Golf Test Dummy could side step reviewing systems for a moment, shift gears and focus on identifying your own swing and nuances.

@@GolfTestDummy see my comment for a series idea. I think it’d be quite interesting and entertaining. Something certainly nobody has done and all the greats have talked about identifying your own swing.

I just recently saw some of Marcus Edblad's videos. Pretty cool.

Man I am looking forward to that, too. Id love to post an even par or better round, and end the year with a single digit handicap.

Thanks for that! Oftentimes, when I'm going through these in depth reviews, a big factor is in how different the previous method and current method are. Opening of the hips on the backswing was a piece of bedrock in Shawn Clement's method. And now? Haha, I need to prevent the hips from turning too much. So I'm literally going from one extreme to another. It adds a whole other wrinkle of difficulty in making the changes.

​@@GolfTestDummy Yeah, no kidding. The swing is endlessly complicated when viewed as a whole. I've been working on understanding Cameron Champ's swing for quite a while. It's an amazing engineering marvel in terms of power production but it's also amazing how many subtleties there are in the fine tuning. The more you want to pull out of a swing in terms of performance, the tighter the tolerances and nuances get. It's like racing in some ways. Today, I was noticing that a slight change in neck inclination makes a huge difference in downswing rotation and path freedom with that swing. And I've been learning to some degree almost all the great swings (at least understanding the components) and there are so many variables that the average golfer (and maybe even teacher) wouldn't notice about the way renowned swings are put together. I could go on for hours; not kidding. Any way, I hear ya! That's for sure. By the way, I was noticing that the swing at 10:02 was closer to what I am talking about: more restricted lead hip with less tilt and I could see that you got deeper into the hit. Cheers.

Driver was tough for me also. But I think the reason for that is because driver is a tough, demanding club with any swing. It has different impact dynamics.

I've tried the left hand being dominate, and the right. In the end, I think both hands being passive makes for a more consistent strike.

@@GolfTestDummy so just to clarify you are swinging both arms equally at the start of the down swing? Sorry I really struggle with this part.

In one video, Moe talks about pulling like mad with the left arm. In another, he says he's made a change, and his hands are out of the swing completely, making it more effortless. Moe was always cryptic and, contrary to what I've seen, over the years, he was making changes and Moe in the 50's is different than Moe in the 90's. Where I am personally right now, is turning my torso back and through, and the arms are along for the ride.

Many thanks!

Yep. I made the switch to ten finger after being an overlapper since I started. It was actually not nearly as hard a habit to break as I thought it would be.

Thanks Alan. The funny thing is, I hit more fairways in the first round, haha. But, to be fair, the fairways at this course, in general, are pretty tight, and missing the fairway doesn't always mean it was a bad shot. GIR is a more important stat for me.

@@GolfTestDummy The main thing is 4 birdies in a round. Pro's judge a round on birdies. 4 or more they still have a game even if the post over par. Zero birdies and 2 or more over they know they are losing it. Keep at it.

Thanks so much! Yeah, Moe was Moe, and none of us will ever be him, so I feel like we all have to make the swing our own.

I like what Mike teaches, because it's all about developing hand skill, and Moe always brought up hand eye coordination being crucial. Mike's biggest feel versus real example is the tipping of the shaft out from the top, which is sort of in the same vein as Monte Scheinblum's no turn and cast drill. Might get to those one day.

I've watched all of that AND Chi Chi, lol. The confusion, in my opinion after all this.... stuff, is that there's a billion ways to get there and leave there, but impact, in regards to club and bal, MUST be a particular way. Period. It's all that matters and it's the only set of universal truths that exist. Handle must be leading to some degree, clubface must be square, and ball must be struck before the turf. Period. Thats it. Everything else before and after is up for grabs.

I was just telling someone else that mechanics matter, sure. But feel matters just as much.

That's awesome Keith. Amazing how this swing helps so many people.

So far, this is moving the needle the more than others. Forward progress and quantifiable results. As far as how it looks, I know it probably isn't the sexiest. As far as my favorite, I would need to know the criteria. Most fun? Easiest?

@@GolfTestDummy we will go with most fun as a barometer. It's certainly my favorite of everything I've tried. I can't wait to see your results and what your conclusions are at the end of this....weather you will keep with this as what you do when your not trying other things.

I'd have to say it IS the most fun. The first time I tried it on course just out of the blue, I was laughing out loud at how great it performed compared to how terrible I was hitting the ball earlier in that same round. Plus, it's fun to step on the tee, and I'm sure people are looking at the setup and chuckling, and then mashing one down the first fairway.

I'm glad I'm exploring everything myself, rather than just one interpretation. It opens up the opportunity to find what works best for me.

Honestly, with this swing, when you get further from the ball, and setup in this way, it's really tough to come over the top. You'd lose your balance.

@@GolfTestDummy Thanks for the reply

Haha, that's awesome, but don't count yourself out just yet. No rule book that says you can't play even better and beat your handicap again.

@@GolfTestDummy True, I used to be a low single handicapper, but years, injuries, and live have taken a toll, but 2 of those days I knew all I had to do was bogey or better on the last 3 holes and I would take the money.

You're right Kent. I've seen that video. That's why in this video I was saying that Todd is absolutely right in explaining what's actually happening. That's reality. The point I was trying to make in this video in a few different ways, was that when I try to create the real, it doesn't work for me. But when I go for the feel, it actually helps me to create the real that Todd is talking about.

It’s at 6:28 where he says“ it’s not this anymore „ and then he is showing that move that you mentioned in the Video. I’m really curious what your opinion is on that. Especially because I’m really trying to get his swing right. It could make the game so much easier for a lot of people but somehow they don’t believe until they see it.

I've seen this video. He is talking about Manuel de la Torre and taking the hands out of it, then he mentions his right elbow and trying to move it along his belly. The trail elbow tucked and leading. I think from looking over Moe's videos from different eras, he changed so much over the years. He always said he was doing the same thing, but he tinkered all the time.

@@GolfTestDummy that’s right. And I totally agree with the need to have a feeling even if it’s not reality. Definitely will try that „slide feel“ tomorrow. Because I’m really struggling with distance. And I’ve heard that a lot. So thanks in advance for that tip!

My opinion exactly. You don't need more speed or muscle. Just a better or more aggressive dynamic loft.

I can understand that and I have to agree. Honestly, what I've discovered so far, is that there are quite a few people that believe they need to be an exact replica of Moe. First, it's impossible to be somebody else. Moe himself made that point. But even if you did a great impression, Moe had something that can't be copied or replicated or achieved. He had a gift. A true gift. And no one will ever be able to do exactly what he did, how he did it. I'm more realistic in my expectations and goals. I think the setup and some of the things that come with it can really improve my game, but ultimately, it still has to be MY swing, and I can't expect to get Moe's results.

@@GolfTestDummy Sadly, there are no recipes for Artistry.