Moondrop Para: Savior of Chinese Headphones?

Рет қаралды 130,292

Күн бұрын

headphone market better start watching their backs...
Ad read sponsored by headphones.com
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PATREON: / crinacle
TWITTER: / crinacle
DISCORD: / discord
SUBREDDIT: / inearfidelity
HOODIE: merch.crinacle.com
~~~
00:00 Intro
01:09 Disclaimers
• Why you SHOULDN'T trus...
02:08 Moondrop Venus
• Can Moondrop disrupt t...
03:24 Moondrop undercutting themselves
05:07 Build quality
06:03 Why is the Para good?
07:40 Versus the competition
~~~
CAM: Sony a7S III + FE 35mm f/1.8
MIC: Sony UWP-D27

Пікірлер: 334

@crin 8 ай бұрын

Want to test out the Para? Come to The Hangout! 29B Mosque Street, Level 3 Singapore 059507 goo.gl/maps/qRhMgtUBZ2FWu6gX9

@artimation4710 8 ай бұрын

Yo mama

@karolkilian2402 8 ай бұрын

Hi i would like to ask if these will be good with the moondrop dawn pro or should I go with the Moonriver 2Ti????????

@VaultF 8 ай бұрын

Hey Crin, did you get the Moondrop Joker yet?

@miraixu6817 8 ай бұрын

@@VaultFwatch his shorts

@VaultF 8 ай бұрын

@@miraixu6817 ok thanks.

@rickyaozora 8 ай бұрын

i'm here for the moondrop's anime art

@tarigof123 8 ай бұрын

Same

@MCPEngu1 8 ай бұрын

@VSN-wb2ly 8 ай бұрын

Got priority straight

@forginator 8 ай бұрын

you got that right

@heyking8583 8 ай бұрын

The only thing moondrop did right

@SpookySkeletonGang 8 ай бұрын

I probably won't pick em up, but I cannot WAIT for overear headphones to go through the same revolution that IEM's went through (if it can). I've been waiting to upgrade my 6XX's since those things launched and there's been nothing that really caught my eye that isn't also 3x the price.

@EikoandMog 8 ай бұрын

I'm absolutely in the same boat as you. I have been very close to picking up some Hifiman Edition XS, though.

@ReikiMaulana 6 ай бұрын

Genuinely can't wait for a sub $200 audiophile headphones..

@user-mh6ie9wm6m 2 ай бұрын

@@ReikiMaulana Fiio JT1 big dog. absolutely slammin for the price. This is coming from a guy who uses LCD-2c's. SLAMMIN, for the price. Theiaudio ghost's too.

@mikafoxx2717 Ай бұрын

The Aune ar5000 looks like it's like the Para but even better.. flat bass, good mids, not overly bright treble. I use 600's and Sundara and this sounds like the best in between of their best qualities.. Will have to see how it goes since I ordered a pair.

@eugenekoh94 8 ай бұрын

I can attest: I auditioned the Para at the Hangout for good while and after that I was sold enough to zip straight down to Sam Audio and buy myself a pair. Absolute steal of the year!

@Superlee900 8 ай бұрын

I know crin touched on it briefly in the video, but i was wondering how you think they compare to the HD600 (if you have tried)? I was thinking of buying a pair of those but i am now intrigued by the para. I currently only have blessing 2 as my iems which i love and grado sr80x are my only headphones however i dont love them. Looking for something to use for music but also as headphones for general pc/gaming use. Thanks

@raf.nogueira 8 ай бұрын

I can't decide between the Moondrop Para, and Hifiman Sundara or Hifiman Ananda... Can you please help me , I can't buy all of these to test it =/

@Athez 8 ай бұрын

What do you think about it's weight? Does it distribute its mass on your head and fit well, or was it bothering you by any chance?

@zurielchew3083 8 ай бұрын

@@raf.nogueirai’ve tried all, and in my opinion, the ananda is the best! and it’s becoming really affordable these days so…definitely i’d recommend the anandas!

@nclark5720 8 ай бұрын

how do they sound compared to say the AKG k371 or the moondrop aria/starfield/kato IEMs? i love the harman-like sound those all have. the AKG k371 is awesome but the build quality is quite troubling

@catdampawshaker2735 8 ай бұрын

Not quite a once a week video thing but still great and wonderful to see you uploading consistent content. Hope you have a great week

@Dartagnyan 8 ай бұрын

6 months in and my theory of "my weird head shape" it's not just the screws falling off, it's the plastic going snape 3 times already. I returned it and slammed down my cash for an LCD-X.

@vincelongman3264 8 ай бұрын

Nice to see more headphone reviews :D

@cadmiumpureland 8 ай бұрын

I have no doubt Moondrop will come up with a more budget “Para” at around $150 very soon. I think their tactics is to test water first. If responses are good, they will go all out in “attack mode” with their more budget Para. 😊

@jamescruz8678 8 ай бұрын

Can't wait for Moondrop to rerelease these for $100 less

@hamedori 8 ай бұрын

That's the problem lol. They are going to make a cheaper version of this for like $150 or something, taking into account how often they pump out new products. For me, I might as well go for a different specialization like the HD6x0 for now, Prime day discounts and all. Will probably bag Para once it goes down priced.

@jamescruz8678 8 ай бұрын

@@hamedori If it even is a problem, it's a good one to have. Good headphones should be more accessible.

@hamedori 8 ай бұрын

@@jamescruz8678 Agreed. Just speaking about the now.

@pliedtka 4 ай бұрын

Considering that I will have to Locktite the falling screws and it's quite heavy, the $100 would compensate for it.

@duchieu235 8 ай бұрын

i have a theory that headphones arent as popular in asia because the climate is hot therefore everyone uses fans therefore you cant use open back headphones because of the noise

@IsaacBrown-kk7jx 8 ай бұрын

Also headphones make ears hot

@Chin2006 8 ай бұрын

that's true for me at least 🤣

@J3ianca 8 ай бұрын

Yes, sweat around the ears is the worst. I have to turn on AC if I want to use it. Noise from fan is not much of a problem for openback tho.

@J7T800 8 ай бұрын

Headphones are also more of a "sit-down" activity. You need to be stationary to get the best experience. I can't do that when I'm constantly walking for hours. Also, wearing headphones during travel feels like I have side mirrors on my head. I need to compensate distance just in case the headphones get snagged onto something.

@Draciel360 8 ай бұрын

I can see that, before I sat down to watch this video with Sundaras on I got up to turn off my air purifier lol

@vianhoho19 8 ай бұрын

Definitely looking forward to try these 👀 considering the price, these might be the Sundara alternative I've been looking for and I adore the Sundara 🥰

@raf.nogueira 8 ай бұрын

I can't decide between the Moondrop Para, and Hifiman Sundara or Hifiman Ananda... Can Someone please help me , I can't buy all of these to test it =/

@juanblanco7898 8 ай бұрын

@@raf.nogueira Have you got any headphones already? You can try equalising them to Para, Sundara and Arya as targets. See what sounds best to you. Alternatively if there's a different target curve you prefer you could try looking how well those can be equalised to it via AutoEQ in Crinacle's measurement comparison tool. You can assess how well do they confirm to the target you're aiming for, how much filters each of them requires and how drastic/intense those filters have to be (less is better). Generally the model that has the least amount of deviations from the target out of the box is best, but it's not always the case. If there are big dips/spikes in the treble area you won't be able to EQ them well and it may come with some potentially significant drawbacks. Also you may look at how smooth the FR graph is. IIRC Sundara has a somewhat wobbly FR throughout the entire audible range with fluctuations of around ~0,5-1,5 dB, which are most likely audible and cannot be corrected via EQ. How much do they affect the perceived sound and to what detriment is an open question, though. But they seem to have less stable/linear driver behaviour than Para.

@raf.nogueira 8 ай бұрын

I didn't yet @@juanblanco7898 Still trying to choose between Moondrop para, hifiman sundara and ananda

@TheElly750 8 ай бұрын

Thats great. That's exactly what i was expected from moondrop getting into headphones. And i was looking for something new in that price range too.

@kiahweelee9994 7 ай бұрын

Great view. Awesome that you only focus on sound quality.

@rokushou 8 ай бұрын

I got my Venus pretty soon after release and have been using it since as my daily driver for home listening. Even though it's not redefining the price bracket, I still think it's very good.

@user-ej8db5ej2e 8 ай бұрын

Finally, update for the over-ear ranking list.

@karolkilian2402 8 ай бұрын

OMGGGG OMGGGG THANKS FOR THIS REVIEWWW!!!!!! LOVE YOUUUU! WAS WAITING FROM WHEN THEY DROPPED IT!!! I REALLY MEAN IT! LOVE U!

@Tilt_TM 8 ай бұрын

I have a pair of Sundara headphones and I love them. I find that the angled ear cups fit my head very well and it completely negates the need for any swivel. I don't like how poorly secured the leather strap is though, I had it pull out on one side because I accidentally dropped something on top of them while they were sitting on my headphone stand.

@derkoekje 8 ай бұрын

You should review the NAN-7. I know you put up measurements for the NAN-6. Interested to hear your take, and it might be interesting for people to try out in your demo space since it's not very commonly available.

@Pizzastealingninja 8 ай бұрын

Listening to this on my work-provided meeting headset from the esteemed hifi titan Dell, I'm sure you approve without hesitation. I can almost hear your sibilances.

@el_projects 7 ай бұрын

you made me laugh, you get a thumbsup from me. haven't laugh for a while now

@issyoi 8 ай бұрын

went to hangout to try these holy its good

@yasins449 8 ай бұрын

hey crin. great video as always. I have question for you. are you ever planning on starting to test monitoring speakers and creating a tier list?

@fahmitaufik1254 8 ай бұрын

IMO testing for speakers is much more challenging than IEM and Headphones mainly because there's so many parameter that can affect the sound even on the same models, namely room accoustics, mic placement, etc and it's a much more niche market.

@botpotato 8 ай бұрын

I like your new hair style

@ArvidOlson 8 ай бұрын

Would love to hear you thoughts on the sound of the moondrop space travel

@fluffyfluffz584 8 ай бұрын

We need crins take on space travel vs nekocake

@st.altair4936 8 ай бұрын

Yess

@thanhthanh-eq6fx 8 ай бұрын

i only have space travel , but nekocake based on grpah the mid range is distorted , space travel has better mid , treble is not harsh, no peaks, nothing to complain abt treble in that price range, just no flaw in the treble. soundstage is decent but imaging is bad like all tws ive tried . detail/resolution is.... bad ? ( im used to planar and ba so i find dynamic has lower detail but dynamic has much more note weight and sounds more relaxing so currently i prefer dynamic ) . bass is ok , quantity is not too much/too little and quality is not deep/thump, just only acceptable, but the bass does not standout in the music and i prefer it cuz it makes music more natural. it has some noise floor but only in 0db environment. sometimes the connection drops ( 3~5 times per day). Disclamer : it's my opinion not fact so your mileage may vary

@chair5728 8 ай бұрын

@@thanhthanh-eq6fxHow’s the noise cancelling?

@heyking8583 8 ай бұрын

Better than xm4 for sure

@Ballacha 8 ай бұрын

Really hope to see chifi DD headphones. I’m so tired of the entry level DD market being dominated by shit tuning from audiotechnica and beyerdynamic etc. Chifi lords please come and fill this void.

@HDStreichholz 8 ай бұрын

first time i hear about beyers having shit tuning

@juanblanco7898 8 ай бұрын

@@HDStreichholz You can't be serious, m8.

@Knowbody42 8 ай бұрын

@@HDStreichholz beyers remorse?

@Ballacha 8 ай бұрын

@@HDStreichholz on a scale of 9 to 10 how much do you enjoy Beats by Dre?

@DANKKrish 8 ай бұрын

okay but hd560s

@soejrd24978 8 ай бұрын

Interested in the Timeless V2 and latest releases around the €300 mark. Just picked up a regular Timeless for €220 and very happy with it.

@chair5728 8 ай бұрын

I’ve heard iffy things about the Timeless V2’s, like tuning and MMCX

@LyK0sa 8 ай бұрын

Resolve measured the TV2 in a vid recently, no idea if he had a straight up broken unit, but to say the tuning was borked was an understatement.

@Jenner_IIC 8 ай бұрын

It's nice to see more good headphones enter the mid budget bracket, as something of a broke fuck myself due to weak currency in country, it's good to see more stuff I could reasonably potentially afford to finally replace my DT770 Pro

@matejgrim 8 ай бұрын

Now I'm waiting for a closed back

@ClampyStew 8 ай бұрын

definitely interesting offer from moondrop

@fsalencar 7 ай бұрын

thank you man

@BOOGA97 8 ай бұрын

Dont worry crin, im still developing a way to get my big ass truck over there via driving on the bottom of the ocean. Im close to a breakthrough to get to that sampling room

@matthewhilty4209 8 ай бұрын

I don't usually like the planar headphone sound but I like the Sundara. If they tamed that upper treble on the Para as you said this might be a decent upgrade.

@hypnoz7871 6 ай бұрын

Just learn to EQ...

@Medsas 8 ай бұрын

poor Timmy he has to listen to the video very carefully to get all the instructions from his boss 😂😂😂

@HebuTheLoneWolf 8 ай бұрын

i havent given a try for IEMs yet but i have been some what interested. these cans look nice but still pricy for my budget. i mainly want over ear headphones due to the comfort but being some one who loves sub bass its hard to find headphones that perform well in the low 30Hz range. the music i listen tends to hover in the low 30Hz high 40Hz and sometimes going as low as low 20Hz range. but trying to find ones that perform well and sound clean in the 100€ range is bit hard and i prefer ones that have swappable cable so i can quickly swap for cans that perform better when gaming and then swap to EQ that is more suited for them and i know. having a good speaker setup with subwoofer is the best option for low bass music but living in a apartment building, low powerful bass aint good if u dont want to get kicked out xD

@fungalgrowth 8 ай бұрын

I don't see it as competition to my HD560S at that ridiculous weight but this is a pretty exciting development that instills hope in the future

@legendredux1291 7 ай бұрын

are they close to each other in terms of tuning or dunno I aint audio guy but I have the 560s and looking at para or venus

@mikew9788 6 ай бұрын

560s are very good

@jsuwangsa 8 ай бұрын

Now I need them halves the price again for the next one 😂

@prithvib8662 8 ай бұрын

Does that ranking mean an incoming update to the headphone ranking list?

@AWDjesus 8 ай бұрын

Tried both at SoCal CanJam and I preferred the Para over the Venus.

@aj0413_ 8 ай бұрын

Thank you for including link to other review in timeline/description; always annoying when I have to manually go find that when a creator references previous video :/

@bigb0ss282 8 ай бұрын

The KZ ZSX was already plenty great. + the new TWS adapters with less buzzing...

@DK83650 8 ай бұрын

Crin, will u make 7hz Sonus review? Any time soon?

@massamendmentauditor114 5 ай бұрын

back to your other video saying we don't need a amp do you think we are going to need a amp ? for the para or do you think a dongle dac will work fine ? i own a THX dongle dac and have a para coming was wondering if its enough my daily drivers are the Xenns up love those more of a iem person going to be my first over ear

@onyhow 8 ай бұрын

Wait, isn't it $50 cheaper than Sundara? I thought Sundara is 350, the same as ATH-R70x? Speaking of that, I wonder how Para compares to the ATH-R70x or the HD600

@bernardoandrade88 8 ай бұрын

R70X 🥰

@andrearenaudo9045 8 ай бұрын

Sundara MSRP is 350$, but its street price nowadays is closer to 250$

@millsjonah 8 ай бұрын

Nope, Sundara MSRP is $300 now

@onyhow 8 ай бұрын

@@millsjonah Huh, interesting. Still yeah, still interesting to see the Para only get B+, which is still below the 2 headphones I mentioned, which get A- from crin despite the glowing reviews here.

@pawebielak7129 8 ай бұрын

I won't lie : sitting here in Poland and checking how far is your lounge earphone place makes me very sad

@CalvinMOfficial 7 ай бұрын

Crinacle, How is the transient response and soundstage on the Para compared to the Sundara and Edition XS? Im looking for a Planar for mixing duties and have narrowed it down to Para, MM100 or Edition XS? Ive already owned the Sundara but found transients to be soft, similar to my HD 600 and I would like a planar with great transient detail, great midrange, extended bass but not over powering and a better soundatage than my HD600.

@nazarinoutama8269 8 ай бұрын

Just wait a few months till they undercut this again lol Joke aside, planning to get Para soon, glad I found your video

@thatboywolf9123 8 ай бұрын

We need a galaxy buds FE video soon

@AnbuReckz 8 ай бұрын

Crin uploads I watch. That is all

@izzy_kunn 7 ай бұрын

hi crin can you review the hisenior t4 and the hisenior okavango cause i didn't see much review about this product and i want to know what your thought on it

@bukursglass6990 8 ай бұрын

Man out of everyone I’ve asked if absolutely love your opinion!! I’m getting the HD 800s headphones, specifically for gaming , I just really want an immersive experience, can you please recommend a dac and amp to pair it with?

@DjamTG12345 8 ай бұрын

god I wish I lived in singapore, I would literally be at crinacles place everyday

@bezchlebalukas1779 8 ай бұрын

Hello @crinacle thanks for video, i would like to ask would you recomend sennheiser HD600 or would you recommend Para? Is it compartable? Thanks of answer.

@amuria55 2 ай бұрын

I almost got this one. I actually got a Hifiman Edition XS because it was on a super sale, it will arrive next week. But I have the feeling my next headphones will be from Moondrop. Not sure wich one yet.

@fauzanmuharram4202 8 ай бұрын

please review your ranking a headphones..the old king r70x and hd600 :)

@Polyfusia 8 ай бұрын

I think come the end of 2024 and the beginning of 2025 there will be several options that make the Para seem antiquated. This is a new market that is just taking off. Other manufacturers of headphones should be worried, and audiophiles should rejoice that it's finally taking off.

@chinmaykapoor 8 ай бұрын

An irrelevant question to this video: But should I buy Oppo enco air 3 pro or nothing ear 2 if they are both available at the same price i.e 60$ ? Because that's my budget👀

@vzxvzvcxasd7109 8 ай бұрын

Blessing 3 crin collab please!!

@naff9n435 8 ай бұрын

Hey crin can you do a test for current IEM bluetooth module(trn,kz,fiio,ibasso) on a plannar IEM? I always wondered how the Bluetooth modules performs because there have been development since the first time they were introduced on the market

@tordj 8 ай бұрын

Waiting for a sub 200 hd600 competitor.

@leziggy 7 ай бұрын

Moondrop undercutting the competition and themselves, guess friendly fire was on xD

@markvicferrer 8 ай бұрын

Given the history, should I just wait for them to undercut themselves again?

@DelusionalCookie 8 ай бұрын

I can't wait to try these. I've been waiting on buying headphones until I can get a good pair of waifu box headphones. lol. Too bad I don't have a reason to take a trip up to Singapore for a day or two to come check out your place. Hopefully soon...

@fatdoi003 8 ай бұрын

Crin, can you please upload again your Drop HD8XX video?? missed your rant on that one

@vascosilva8755 8 ай бұрын

Hello. Nothing related to this video but im not sure what to buy. I want to buy iems but a want a mic too. I dont know if i buy the kimura solo wich already have mic or if i buu the truthear zero and then the kinera celest riyu cable wich have a mic. The price is almost the same but i dont know wich is best. Any help here?

@CastledMallard 7 ай бұрын

Hey Crinacle! could you please make video on the Google Pixel buds pro? i really am interested in buying them but i cant bring myself to buy them until i hear an opinion from the Audio king!

@nftbandit9645 8 ай бұрын

I’ve tried the chu, chu 2, aria SE and now Kato. The Katos are incredible and I love them. I’ve really enjoyed their line of products except for one small problem… The filter issue that I have had now which is very common apparently is SO DAMN ANNOYING. I’ve had 3 sets of Chus, all 3 have experienced the filter issue. Even one pair of them within one week of use. My Aria SE gave me this issue as well after 5 months,

@findingjapanartist9836 8 ай бұрын

Kato heavy user here Well the filter is definitely an issue for Kato and I found that u can't get the new filter where moondrop only sells the whole set for both nozzles for the price around 10$ I tried to buy it once and it still wear out like the stock set for around half a year So what I do is I go find a stainless steel filter online for just a few bucks and slap it on the nozzle like usual and it works perfectly fine U can go find one too and the size is 4.0 mm

@nikilragav 7 ай бұрын

What's the issue?

@lgude 7 ай бұрын

Nice review. I have a lot of Chifi. It is great value.

@markothomas9765 8 ай бұрын

the left channel of my edition xs died recently and it will cost me 170us to get these replaced. Should I go ahead with this or should I put my money towards a para or a future even better headphone. Thought the crin viewers might have opinions

@aleknadane473 7 ай бұрын

@crincacle Have you compared to the Fiio FT5?

@andikawidianto9060 8 ай бұрын

Damn shure 440 might go down to b- or even c rank in the upcoming rankings

@boojoos 8 ай бұрын

Hey Crinacle, I was wondering if you can recommend a pair of headphones for music in the price range of $100-150 dollars there’s a lot of options online just hard to pick I just want some clean overall sounding headphones. ❤

@disastrousemouse 8 ай бұрын

Compared to Edition XS? Does it compete with that?

@st.altair4936 8 ай бұрын

Thoughts on Moondrop Space Travel?

@acasccseea4434 8 ай бұрын

Blessing 3 crin when please

@hannahjocelyn4021 8 ай бұрын

How would you compare it to the ATH R7Ox?

@superidyt 15 күн бұрын

Can you leave a brief sound comparison between PARA and ANANDA Stealth?

@DriveKnightJaden175 8 ай бұрын

You didn't review the Moondrop Chu 2 so now I had to buy them without knowing your rating for them, I got them for $17 on sale though

@sonGOKU_007 8 ай бұрын

is shp9600 good? or is there something better in the same price range.

@Katzykor 8 ай бұрын

Dark sabers next week?

@dressant4541 8 ай бұрын

PARAbéns (congratulations in portuguese) to Moondrop for create a new revolution on Head-fi

@AzusaNyaa 7 ай бұрын

Parabens aren't good things in English 🤣🤣

@mehedihassan3692 8 ай бұрын

What do you think about recent bangers from Simgot? Have you tried them yet?

@Boundless2k10 8 ай бұрын

the chinese company Sivga also has decent headphones (love my Sivga SV023 to death)

@getsideways7257 7 ай бұрын

Sivga Aiva is probably the best choice in the "cheap" region.

@cloudchaser21 8 ай бұрын

Can anyone help me remember the song played in 1:06 , I swear I've listened to this tune alot but I cant point it out exactly which song is it.

@luthfifalaqi8138 8 ай бұрын

Dude, have you try Asus ROG TWS? I sceptical about it, they do make a good laptop but idk about TWS

@legendredux1291 7 ай бұрын

does this make venus obsolete ?

@texmo42 8 ай бұрын

Which amplifier was used for testing? It's impedance is 8 ohm, probably requires lot of current.

@getsideways7257 7 ай бұрын

Probably a poweramp for driving loudspeakers :)

@kazefw3834 8 ай бұрын

Wouldn't it be funny if moondrop release a new headphone next year that improve upon para and undercut the price yet again 😂

@azeilor 8 ай бұрын

Have you tried the Kimura Duo IEM's?

@doohresarf321 8 ай бұрын

Interesting, but doesn't seem like it's going to kick the sennheisers off my headphone stand, which feels like the bar.

@Flash_510 7 ай бұрын

you think these are good for a competitive gamer ? like great imaging/soundstaging?

@EfectTorn 8 ай бұрын

what is the name of black ear tips use in truthear x crinacle zero??

@ordinary_windy-chan 8 ай бұрын

Paradigm.

@burns0100 7 ай бұрын

Honestly I could of had the Venus, HBB did a giveaway and I got to pick between Venus and Beautiful World. End up with BW IEM as I'd never spend $1200 AUD on an IEM and I knew the Para was coming out soon. I think Moondrop have nailed the Planar market for their own little place in it. I just think they'd do the same with the dynamic market now and have a solid closed back option. Give Beyerdynamics a run for their money. I think Moondrop have gone a little off the deep end with launching products half way through RnD, like a little more work on tuning and they'd be good and a little more quality in the materials used for the build and they'd be great. Just seems like another 6-12 months of work and some of these headphones would rival that of their IEM's releases. Hopefully in the future Moondrop can pull it off, I give them some slack because not many companies even those big ones like Sennheiser can manage to pull off making good products for both Headphone and IEM markets. It's generally one or the other. So Moondrop having two decent headphones already with the Venus and Para and hopefully another on its way with the ES driver flagship, I have to give them credit. So far it's a 50% success rate which is good.

@shalinkhalif 7 ай бұрын

Boys should i get galaxy buds 2 or truthear zero's ? (All i care about is sound but yes convenience still helps ) ,as Rated by crinacle buds 2 are B+ ,zero's are not better then hexa so they're for sure atmost b+ as well