It’s really hard… I had to slow it down to understand what was going on. 🤦🏻

@@Thedrummersalmanac slowing things down is key to understanding and learning. I understood and learned that way too late. 😄

yes because it's just wrong lol

@AlexH4774 and pointless

@@jayflash2035the entire point of the band is to break the laws of music. Its not pointless, its meshuggah.

Facts lol

this happens to me with a lot of songs and I like experimenting with hearing it wrong and right

​@@AtanoKSiYeah same here. Any music where it is pretty much up to interpretation, I headbang differently every time the same part comes again and switch between them back and forth as I please. I think that's honestly how you're supposed to listen to it.

This^ It feels so good to hear it the way most of us do for most of it and then just get absolutely bulldozed when the parts that reveal the true timing pattern come up.

I agree, but then Jens comes in and jumbles it all! 🤯🫠🥴

It depends on the riff. Some parts of the song feel like they’re off and others line up in a more normal way. That’s how I hear it at least.

yep! either the cymbal or the snare usually plays a 4/4 from what i've noticed

ha, thanks! It's fun

Not sure what you mean by "odd" here but the time signature is not odd :)

We can't feel it like that because that'snot actually how it is. We know this because there's a cymbal crash that's supposed to tell us where the 1 of the measure is and it always lands on the same beat as the rhythm guitar. Jens comes in on the same beat as the rhythm guitar and so does the guitar solo. The drums are trying to throw you off.

@@ScoCoda That's an anticipation, an extremely common syncopation. Pay attention to when Tomas counts the band in with his hihat. Also, when it goes to half time, pay attention to where the snare is.

It's in 4 either way... It's just a matter of hearing where the actual meter of the beat sits, that is hard and in this case very deceptive.

I’ve been listening to this song for over ten years, and that feel is still completely insane

The kick is on every off-beat ( and / & ) 1 & 2 & 3e & 4 & Repeat The 2 is the only quarter note that is silent (If my memory serves me right)

I’ll take a look 👀

So, one basic way to count the beats for music with your voice is “one and two and three and four and” [repeat] If you do this for Forest, the first beat in the song (being a snare drum) is on the word “and” just before the first “one”. This is probably what’s throwing you off because most music starts simply on “one”. The bass drum beats repeatedly land on the “one”, “two”, “three” and “four”, the snares repeatedly land on the last “and” in each bar and a triplet tom rhythm repeatedly fills the space between the “and three and four”.

The time is where it is…

...and that's the trap that they set.

Math rock? Awh hell no

and that is the deception. The Hihats are actually right on the beat. The guitar is on the off-beats. ...and it is FAR from easy, especially at this tempo.

Wrong

@@jayflash2035 wrong how?

@@trev1978 it’s needless over analysis imo, I’ve seen lots of people talking about the right/wrong way but only meshuggah know what they intended, and since they are pretty open minded and have previously rejected the notion of ‘math rock’ in interviews, I think it’s fair to say they just want people to hear the song subjectively

It's actually not that technical... It's just REALLY FAST!!!

It's just SOOOO fast...

pretty much, even fredrik and marten said it in their how to play bleed video. they do play in 4/4. i think it's the drums that fucks everything up (in a good way) so let's say guitars are playing at standard 4/4, then there's tomas haake going 8/7 to 4/3 to 8/5 to 4/4 or something on the drums

That's it ...

Sure… easy to feel backwards.

It doesn't shift... the time, as far as I heard, is constant. But they clearly want you to have to shift it. That's part of the journey they are taking you on.

Jambi is fucking awesome!! That change from 9/8 (with all possible subdivisions playing together) to a straight 6/4 is jaw-dropping

Yogev Gabay talks about Jambi in one of his videos, highly recommend it!

It’s definitely deceiving

I didn’t do anything… that’s all Meshuggah. Lol

Right would be the way the drummer and band are feeling the time… my guy. 😉

@@Thedrummersalmanac I tried my hand at a drum cover a few years ago, and I felt it the "wrong" way according to you, still worked out pretty well for me, so I wouldn't be so sure ! (I mean, I couldn't get all the fills down but that's mainly because I suck not because of feel) Do you have like an interview from Haake or the band to confirm that or is that just what you think ?

@@yvancluet8146 I have decades of experience that tell me very clearly where the actual time is. ...and sure... Playing it backwards is easy. Trying to figure out how Meshuggah is hearing and executing it... that's difficult... and that's on purpose, because they are great players using the time to trick you.

@@Thedrummersalmanac I think their purpose with this song was specifically to challenge the notion of a "correct" way. What counts as correct : How the band hears it ? How the majority of people hear it ? Does it even matter ? These are questions raised by this song. In my humble opinion, if you feel it, however you're hearing it, you're hearing it correctly. I don't like the notion that the artist has final authority over how their art should be experienced, and I really don't like the idea that art can be experienced "incorrectly" :) Just my 2 cents !

@@yvancluet8146 …people don’t like to told they are wrong… which is precisely why I use that language. 👍🏻

Do it with just the song without listening to my counting… 😉

If you are not playing it... It's not a chore at all to listen to. If you are playing it... what they are doing is difficult. Some music is difficult.

The first… is not where the time is… if that’s what you are talking about. It’s very fast and very hard to find.

It's SOOOOOO FAST

@@Thedrummersalmanac just thought I'd come back a month later to say after your video I can now hear it correctly. So thanks!

@@jamesholman952 …I hear ya man… it took me practice just to make this video.

Nope.

Sure there is... If you are hearing it or God forbid playing it whilst not knowing on where the actual time is... That IS wrong. Absolutely. Knowing and understanding where the time is... is very important.

@@Thedrummersalmanac I hear ya. I guess I just don't find anything wrong in feeling the time in my own way. I am not able to play Combustion, I just stick to experience. Cheers. Pozdro666

@@zagadape109 of course. You are absolutely welcome to hear it how ever you’d like… but if the discussion is where the actual time of the song is… there is a right way and a wrong way to hear it… and Meshuggah is trying to trick you. That is part of the experience of listening to this song.

@@Thedrummersalmanac indeed it is a part of the experience. Pozdro666

I think the entire thing is actually just in 4/4 lol

@@maxhitsdrums really it still sounds crazy though

@@maxhitsdrums what about the dance of eternity by dream theater

@Fieldyfan94 I'm not 110% sure but I just counted it out for a while and it seems to be in 4/4. Most Meshuggah is actually in 4/4 and they just use polyryhtms against it. As far as Dance Of Eternity.. oh man 😂 There's 108 time signature changes throughout the song lmao

@@maxhitsdrums idk how you would even count that song way to many time signatures

Really? I feel like his vocals are pretty tame for the genre.

His yell is relentless but it’s distinctive, sounded a lot like Phil Anselmo of Pantera early on too, and I know his yell is tough to get down with also

I get it. The harsh vocals are a common point of contention for burgeoning metalheads. Thing is, the voice in metal is just another instrument, one that can self-distort. Let it blend into the wall of sound like a track of guitars. Absorb it only rhythmically until you acclimatize to it. There are some other bands that might be easier to get into the harsh vocals with occasional clean, like Fear Factory.

True, when I was getting into Cannibal and Death, I only ever paid attention to the instruments, the vocals only interested me from a rhythm standpoint. It takes time, but I'm sure you could learn to love em though.

Yet he seems so convinced, 1-0 meshuggah

How so?

@@Thedrummersalmanac just watch any live of the song, the band headbangs to the natural beat of the song. Those hi hat hits are just there to throw you off

@@gargus6287 show me the video where the band is “headbanging” on the wrong beat during that intro… Drop that link here. Not to mention, the tempo is so fast, a “headbang” ain’t gonna show you where the time is. Ya know what does, though. The time… as played on the hihat.

​@@Thedrummersalmanac Sure thing! watch this one : /watch?v=QhD4HNXSlqE you can clearly see all three members headbanging to the correct beat (even in the intro). They also headbang at 'half-time' so no, definitely not too fast to see it :) Hope that helps x

Sorry, my nan… you could not be more wrong with that way of thinking… especially if your intent is to do this kind of music.

Listen to Catch 33 album top to bottom, noise cancelled, no lights. You'll thank me.

@@gandalfdengra5580 masterpiece of an album, e du norsk btw?

@@pipespeeps5349 Indeed. Svensk!

I'd agree in the case of lots of other over-complicated stuff, but in the case of Meshuggah - I like it, because it grooves like hell 😎🙂👌 because they always have the continuous 4/4 pulse underneath everything, which keeps it groovy. Sure, it can be difficult for some non-musicians to hear the 4/4-pulse in some parts, where its a bit more hidden. But with some training it's even more rewarding & enjoyable, when you hear the parts the way the band hears & feels them. ☺ And cross-rhythms & polythms are not only theoretically interesting to analyze - I enjoy them, because they sound nice. Hearing the same pattern from different starting points does something to your head & ears in ja very musically enjoyable way. But if I hear some weird always-changing-odd-meter stuff like Dream Theater, I get bored within the first few seconds, because I get annoyed by the lacking pulse. just my 2 cents. 🤗✌

I agree with you but mrshuggah is not that, same with dream theater, they have complicated stuff but at least there is still some emotion/musicality behind it. Bands like polyphia or like animals as leaders, those are bands with no emotion or soul, but crazy technique. Listen to more than just a song by meshuggah, listen to a whole album, listening to one or 2 random songs from them is like reading 1 or 2 chapters from random books, of course you're not going to enjoy it as much, you're not getting the whole picture!