when I made this transition I realized that I was moving from a genre where players were frustrated with easy combat (quite common with their power level) to a genre where players are happy and relieved with combat that turns out to be easy, or even if there is no combat.

After playing 5e for years, I've absolutely loved the migration to OSE! I've been playing OSE now for a couple of years and love the open-ended creativity it offers. I game with long-time friends, in a couple of different settings now--Dolmenwood and The Halls of Arden Vul-- and I can't recommend the system highly enough! We actually share our game if anyone wants to see an example of actual play. We're over at 3d6 Down the Line.

One thing I realized when talking about the "what media are we emulating" is the following: The more supernatural the setting, the more important it is to have strict rules on what can and cannot be done. You need the "long jumper" ability to do long jumps etc. But, if your setting is "realism with magic" then everything becomes more about how you'd approach a similar situation using real world logic. Which also makes it possible to have a much freer system of rules on how things are handled - and magic can become less codified too.

Yes, I have found the same things. When I play OSE, I can remember all the other characters names and classes and even what they can do like which spells they have, etc. It's way easier to imagine what's happening when you can keep that stuff in your head. In 5e I was always planning out my next move and half of the other player's turns were incomprehensible to me - just a string of special ability names that sound cool but are meaningless to me. All I knew was "Joe did 17 damage" but I had no idea what it looked like or what actually happened in the fictional world. In OSE I find that I'm always thinking in the fictional world first.

OSE has brought back the magic I felt decades ago when I first started playing D&D. Great discussion. Subscribed.

OSE has become my D&D of choice for sure. The super hero level of 5e just was not my jam. I quite like the Advanced OSE (basically taking AD&D and back working the mechanics to B/X) and we use those books too. I have converted the AD&D Dragonlance materials to OSE for one group and it has been working out quite well so far (we are into the 2nd module). Overall, it has just proven to be a more enjoyable experience for many, if not all, the reasons that were spelled out in the podcast.

Stuart, Here is my contribution to the TTRPG Community, a little hook for anyone wanting to adventure! Thank you for putting up a fight! There was once an (almost) peaceful realm known as Arpeegenia. The realm of Adventure and Danger, but also of Treasures and Friends, where one could live and dream as much as it pleases. It was also a place where a Path could be found to any Dungeon or any Dragon. Ruled by the Great Rool Elle Play King, who was just, quite fun and loved by his people. He had two Godfathers that helped him grow powerful and decent: The Two Wizards of the order of Haasz. Better known as the Haasz Brothers. One day, in the blink of an eye, the kingdom saw its own rupture. The Two Wizards went mad from the treasure's greed, that was very well known for its mind-disease and were famous for extirpating even the most Righteous Heroes. So they both kidnapped the Princess OohGi Elle, daughter of the Great King and enclosed her in the big tower at the Coast. With influence, power and the benefit of a big army of Law Fighters, they also put the Entire Kingdom to treat, making every city or village, hostage of their voracious power. Therefore, any loot collected from the dungeons and adventures should be confiscated and registered by them. The tribute should be 25% of any treasure bigger than a chest. The King now is powerless. It is up to the Adventurers to stop this madness, saving the realm of Arpeegenia and maybe Princess OohGi Elle... After a few days, the most famous Guild of the realm, The Quick Beginning Guild, tried to negotiate with the mad Wizards in order to lower the tribute in order to help the kingdom. “No Adventurer could ever accept this Tribute.” - They tried to bargain. So the word started to spread in every corner, of every Tavern. You could hear it! No adventurer, hero or peasant would not talk about it. This went too far, too quickly. The Mad Wizards must be stopped. A Caravan was prepared, the Stampede of the Beyond, and this is here where You Start. Your Goal is to go to the Southland and find The Black Flag Pirates. Their leader, the Pressing Kobold will help you travel through the sea, where the ORCs live in the Zopai Lands. Go on and join in their rebellious army and find your Path against the Wizards. Along the way you will find many foes but also many Friends, and the only answer lies in the dangerous journey. You have all that you need in your heart. And Remember to ask yourself, when to fight and when to let go.

I played D&D from 1980-86 and then recently returned to it. And I think 5e player style reflects the way the majority of people have always played the game. But I'm fascinated by the OSR because it's so unlike what I remember. It amounts to a different way of fixing the problems: by changing the way you approach the game rather than changing the rules. It's an uphill battle though. All the problems you list in 5e were present in AD&D, and could arise in OSE if not everyone agrees to approach it in this very proscribed way, or if the publisher simply decides to continue producing product beyond the core rules.

A year and a half ago I was suffering 5e DM burnout. I convinced my players to play an OSE one off. All it took was that one session, and we were all hooked. I felt reinvigorated as a DM, and the players sat around for an hour after the session talking about the game. Highly recommend giving it a try, you won't regret it!

Great discussion. I think that's a solid point about magic level in the games by default. But, OSE can really adapt well to higher fantasy settings, as well. 5E doesn't really adapt well the other way (or more accurate, I think the players expectations of 5E make it tougher to adapt). I love the openness of OSE. If you want to do something, you try to do it. You don't skill hunt to find what you can do, you use your imagination to decide what your character is doing.

Great video! You pretty much spelled out why I highly prefer OSE to 5e!

I've just picked up Dragonbane. Yet to play but it looks really cool. Old style with humour, less rules, boons and banes that work similar to advantage ( you role a d4 with your d20 and add or subtract). Not much level progression so the numbers stay tight and I can't wait to poke a pig and direct it against my enemy! I think you might enjoy it for a change.

Great video, coming back basic and advanced after 25 years and looking forward to it.

great discussion. our group switched to OSE about a year + ago. I am a veteran of old Basic and AD&D and tbh i was NOT excited for it. But once i got my old school legs under me again, I could not agree with your analysis more. Especially where a 5E game feels more like a super hero movie than a medievel adventure. We're playing the Arden Vul megadungeon now and we're cut off from our escape and have dwindling supplies. Its tense and our torches are running out!

Great discussion! One of my groups is moving from 5e to OSE and this discussion mirrors several, if not most of the reasons why. My SoloRPG channel will also be featuring OSE as we move away from 5e to OSE in season two. Thanks for sharing the great discussion!

If I leave 5e to go backwards I will create my own version of BECMI. Lots and lots of fun adventuring in that edition (great modules, settings, etc).

My players loved the special powers of 5e BUT it was just too much for them to track. As busy adults they prefer OSE b/c it's simplicity with less to track. Yes, number one reason. I couldn't keep track of all the spells and rules as a DM. Yes, its a foundation you can add cool things too. It's a bolt on system. Yes, 5e is high fantasy super hero. Man you guys are nailing everything.

i love this so much. If i didn't have rules cyclopedia this would be my go to.

Amazing discussion - whoa a huge gap between uploads - massively topical and apt now too. New sub :) OSE and related 'classic rpg retro clones' like Basic Fantasy are my jam as a BECMI kid from the 80s. Loving content creators coming out the woodwork discussing the OSR side of TTRPGs and contrasting it with more newer 'IP' rulesets like D&D fifth edition etc.

I play Worlds Without Number, but it's not too far from OSE in terms of character creation etc. I have found that some players don't really take so well to the semi-random generation of characters. Usually it comes down to thinking of characters as something you pre-generate and think out, rather than something that inspires you as you build it. I personally much prefer the sort of associative generation, where an odd background roll + stat spread might make an odd character I would never have thought of myself. Also 5E I feel is too focused on combat skills - thus people build the combat characters. Thus their character is a hammer, so the whole world becomes a nail.

Great to see this! More, please.

Honest to goodness this is the best video on the topic ever. You guys nailed everything. Subing

OG DM '81. I tried 5e for a couple years and it drove me half crazy, especially after 5th level. Went back to my first love, B/X (actually Basic Fantasy which is BX streamlined with ascending armor class, otherwise about the same). Glad to see many younger players and DMs are switching to the OSR, it's just a better set of games IMO.

Planning to run OSE - play tested combat today. Hired 2 retainers, gave them leather armor, long bows, daggers. Rolled for an encounter, rolled 3 vipers. Okay, 3 v 3 how bad could it be...Died on turn 2 when I failed a poison save 0_o

Nice conversation! Thanks from an old-school guy.

Great comment at about 15.00 about characters in 5E being like building a constructed deck in MtG, it takes a long time and investment into the rules system by the player to create their character, and with this in depth knowledge comes an expectation that RAW will be strictly adhered to, which i find limiting. In old school you can create a new character in 5 mins, and honestly I think they're just as memorable as 'modern' characters, if not more so.

great and thoughtful points

At the 10:59 mark, a commercial for deodorant broke in. “In Old School Essentials, I feel that it’s easier for the players to keep track of-STINKY PITS AND FEET!”

It's so good that there is lots of alternitives ttrpg's. I'm right there with ya with the better differences of OSE. The ttrpg I love to see vloggers playthroughs and playing this system myself is called D100 Dungeon. To me D100 Dungeon is very exciting and simple to play!

Great video and I agreed with all your points. You might want to take a look at Shadowdark if you want an Old School vibe campaign, but with new mechanics like Advantage / Disadvantage, ascending Armor Class, etc, but still has a low hp, low power curve and actually stops at level 10.

I'm struggling with the idea that y'all are having trouble remembering a character's race and class separately. At the height of my gaming career I was running 2 games and playing in 2 games and I could easily remember what everyone's race and class/concept were. I feel like that's a communications issue moreso than an options overload issue. I agree with you on some of the other things, though, like it being easier to homebrew and the game feeling different.

I'm really enjoying listening to your discussion. Regarding alignment i have to say it seems like the 3 alignment system is often more confusing than 9. I think in your discussion there's already a bit of the sense that law is law but chaos is actually evil. I'm not sure what approach to alignment I prefer these days but I have real difficulty especially with the 3 alignment system.

cool video. Hopefully more will follow your lead.

Towards the end you also mentioned that with OSE the DM can ask a new player what do you do in this situation, and that works I. OSE because a first level character is not too dissimilar from you or I. Great observation. 5E characters are super human and I many cases quite alien. It’s an awesome system for people who want to play medieval fantasy super heroes. Not my thing.

“5E character creation is like building a magic deck that a player will then want to test against the environment. Yes! I get why people enjoy that aspect of 5E. That’s not my thing at all, but for those who do enjoy that take 34:46 on the game then 5E is a great system.

Great video, good dicussion

Just received my copy of this and I'm very curious about this.

What really threw me off when creating a 5e character is that you get a wagon of stuff with the class and race. It’s stupid. I OSE you get like 5 items and that’s it.

Welcome!!!

Subbed. - Brian.

So, I've been learning a lot more about OSE (and Dolmenwood), and have been trying to reconcile it with 5e. As I was reading again through the 5e PHB and DMG with the context of OSE, I realized that they are written very differently from any other 5e book. Many rules assume the player knows about resource management, overland travel, dungeon crawling equipment, and all these other classic DnD things, but leaves the rules terribly open-ended. Then, the adventure modules, monsters, and classes do not work to implement these ideas and if they do, it is not meaningful. The original Ranger is perhaps the best example of getting left without any support because the exploration pillar is so weakly written within the rules.

Old style games are played against the Player, the new math bloat systems you are playing against the character, so the game becomes more about building characters rather than playing them.

great idea, you should do this thing, much less BS

5e player here trying to learn more about OSE. Things I've gathered so far: 1. 5e is more complex (funny how it's simple compared to 3.5) 2. OSE likely doesn't have as much of sn issue with magic being something over the top and domineering. People don't enforce component costs but even then some spells thst dont need components are quite strong and in some cases work automatically. 3. I think the way rolls are handled in 5e is a result of the present day gaming culture. People like big numbers and having abilities that do crazy things. It's largely a group oriented thing and it happens to be the case that people don't like being stuck with bad rolls because they feel like it hinders what they are trying to do with their characters, given most characters only get their choice between Feat / ASI maybe three or four times. In retrospect, I think that's where the flaw is - people are trying to build a hard-hitting character in a game where damage is heavily dependent on both their strength scores and their feats with not much in-between aside from treasure due to the action economy and being forced to prioritize where they will see increases. Rolling a 17 Strength as a Half-Orc means you don't have to worry about handling that when you're a barbarisn with 19 strength at level 1. 4. I disagree about the danger side of things. 5e's challenge rating system is flawed - it assumes you fight under specific circumstances in regsrds to enemies. So, sometimes a DM says "screw this, the risk needs to be real" and throws enemies at you that csn rip you apart simply because the challenge rating sustem isn't that useful. There's a guy who runs games for my group sometimes and almost every fight is a fight for our lives. 5. I like the simplification and minimalization of rules because it allows the game to flow faster and smoother but I also like games to be complex enough that my character will be different in more ways than one from the next guy. I looked at the AGE system Green Ronin has and I liked what I saw, but I have reservations about Armor / Hit Point Bloat. 5e definitely has issues with magic being too powerful and prominent, especially when considering what I pointed out in my #3. Spells are complex things and those can slow down games. I think Magic has a lot to do with the game being slowed down. It's far easier to remember what your martial character does provided you don't have spellcasting.

Alignments are all centered around humans. For example from a Dwarf's perspective all humans should be chaotic. Orcs and goblins don't see it as evil that they take advantage of weakness and kill since to them it is just natural. When they later tried to apply alignments to every perspective it made alignments meaningless.

Haven't read/seen OSE, I'll add another difference between 5e and 2ed. I've tried both, and there's definitely more Role Playing going on in 2ed. In 5e it's more of a computer game versus enemies. What the DM talks about, isn't that interesting, (unledd it's about light clothed ladies with green hair, (special case, I know)). It also connects to the part of shopping as a group, where many decisions needs to be taken before setting out and that happens as Role Playing, (seldom including the DM). OK, that might end up with this qoute from a gaming night; PC shops around for an afternoon trip, when suddenly the "stupid" cleric asks: -"Do we have tents enough for every one?".

Didn't really play 5E, as such. I got the bug again in 2016 (thanks Vox Machina) but had no money, no books. Made my own thing watching the show. Never wrote down more than a few tables and lists I couldn't just keep in my head. (That last bit is a feature-I'm legally blind, can't read stuff off a DM screen, y'know? It's why I stopped playing 25 years ago: I couldn't figure out how to run a game back then.) Planned to buy 5E books this year while I could just to have them, was budgeting for that on Jan 2nd. OGL scumf**kery, dust clears. Okay, how about PDFs of old D&D just to have them? Maybe 5E PDFs later, I said. Then WotC followed that up by just taking a WotC on everything they could systematically in the months since. I have IRL friends at the company, and they're looking for new work because management hates them only slightly less than they hate us. I'm done with that company unless or until some people at the top get tossed aggressively out the door. I discovered Shadowdark just before its KS went live. It's like my rules but more like the 1E/Basic games I remember. And as soon as I had its quickstart in my hands, all the other OSR games are suddenly very relevant and useful. I'm legally blind, words in printed books are a pain in the eyeball to read! And yet my shelf is now full of printed copies of these A5 and digest sized OSRish games because they deserve to be there.

Lavender Hack is an easy transition. The mini games are effective at replacing crunch as a way to keep players busy.

75 players in three years. WOW. that's alot. No wonder you want to switch systems. ~Brian.

i think adding multiple difficulty levels to 5e would of been well received. like there is the 5e -standard: with full hit dice after long rest -grit: players only get half hit dice after a long rest 5e/3e hybrid-dangerous: players get full hit dice after a long rest. players die on negative 10hp+con or - negative half hp max, healing will stabilize but players cannot get up on 0hp or less -scary:players only get half hit dice after a long rest. players die on negative 10hp+con or - negative half hp max, healing will stabilize but players cannot get up on 0hp or less - nightmare: players only get 1 hit dice after a long rest. players die on negative 10hp+con healing will stabilize but players cannot get up on 0hp or less 3e-standard. long rest recovers (1 hp x level). complete bed rest for an entire day and night, you recover (2hp x level). players die on negative 10hp+con healing will stabilize but players cannot get up on 0hp or less (three death save system optional) AD&D standard- For each day of rest players will regain 1 hp, up to and including 7 days. However a character with a penalty for poor constitution must deduct weekly the penalty score from his or her days of healing, i.e., a -2 for a person means that 5 hit points healing per week is maximum, and the first two days of rest will restore no hit points. After the first week of continuous rest, characters with a bonus for high constitution add the bonus score to the number of hit points they recover 11 (7 + 4) hit points to a fighter character with an 18 constitution. Regardless of the number of hit points a character has, 4 weeks of continuous rest will restore any character to full strength. -players die at 0 hp (optional) players may roll one death save on there turn, if not healed on there next turn they are dead. OD&D standard- For each day, after the first day of rest players will regain 1 hp, 1d4 months of rest will restore any character to full strength. -players die at 0 hp

totally agree, if yer open to homebrewed osr please let me know and i will send you mine to read..would love some feedback

Yeah. Role playing is tough. Everyone acts like a human. Doesn't matter what they play. May as well make character's human. ~Brian.

I grew up with 1st and 2nd back in the 80s. I like every edition but I'm one of the few who loves 4e most. 5e for some reason just rubbed me the wrong way. All the others had something special. 5e just doesn't have that unique thing about it.

Personally I am diehard waiting for Dolmenwood

I just wanted to point out that Murderhoboes is not a new thing. I started playing D&D back in the ‘80’s and my players routinely raised towns to loot the treasure and get the xp.

good one!

I've always wondered how 5e would work if you actually treated it like an old school game.

4d6 drop lowest has been around a while.

20:00

My alignment system is collective (lawful) vs individual & assertive (taking) vs agreeable (sharing/giving)

If everyone has magic (5e) then no one has magic.

Great discustion and it was interesting hearing why you moved from 5e to OSE although most of those reasons I believe could be made up by talking with your players and coming to an agreement on what play should be like... which I have to not is the same for any TT game even OSE.

a better rule sets for RG in the Medevile setting would ARS MAgica. I still do not understand why so many people are attached to some version of D&D and they are just bad system. It like they can not see the that problem is the system not the version of the system.

I love 5e and also like OSR games but I cannot relate with most of what you are saying.

Regarding alignment: new d&d feels like an attempt to force the dysfunctional “real world” into the game. Old school games are simply an escape from the real world. Ironically, the Old school games seems more realistic.

Am I seriously the only person who hates advantage/disadvantage?

How in the genuine fuck could anyone play 5e for 9 YEARS!? Like damn, not to be overdramatic but I was bored out of my skull with the system after running for a few months.

Step 2 in OSE is choose a class "after" rolling stats. Why would you play a weak Fighter or a dumb Wizard? Choose a class that goes with the stats, not the other way around. LOL!!

you are wrong about the law, chaos alignment argument, if you read the BECMI rules (heck literally the OSE rules even say the same thing), chaos was inherently evil, and lawful was inherently good, while neutral was just selfish

I am not saying anything bad about OSR I think that have some good games in them but I do have a problem with the people advocating for them is always the same pretentious and ass backwards, 80% of the complains about 5e are just miss reads of the rules or gripes about the setting and tone but all of that is a you problem not a system problem, do you want a setting more like Sword and Sorcery, then just say no the the player trying to play the dam robot, the existence of those things in the books are not bad just don't use anything that you don't want in there, most OSR characters and games are very low level and you know 5e characters are also very frail the first few levels, don't get me wrong things like hirelings systems and emphasis of certain things might be reason enough to prefer OSR there is nothing wrong about that but people need to stop trying to define it as better DnD, is not just put more emphasis on other things and while 5e has its problems (And not just one or two) the same goes for OSR.

Man, it’s really hard to grasp how anyone could play 5E for 9 years!! I played AD&D 2nd for like 15 months, before I could not take it anymore and switched (to Merp), and 2E is way better that 5E.

The OSR community seems much less woke than the 5e/Critical Role/Stranger Things crowd which is why I've gravitated towards OSE.

complaints about 5e boil down to "i made 5e too much work for myself, so it felt like too much work". that's not really a problem with 5e.

I don't get the argument of "I could not account for their abilities." Like why didn't you look at the character sheets ask the players what their abilities are when building the event? Like it's not pokemon online where you can latterly encounter anything... and people enjoy that.

It's like trading in your 2024 for an Oldsmobile with 3 tires and a wagon wheel.