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@paulelephant9521 8 күн бұрын
Great comment at about 15.00 about characters in 5E being like building a constructed deck in MtG, it takes a long time and investment into the rules system by the player to create their character, and with this in depth knowledge comes an expectation that RAW will be strictly adhered to, which i find limiting. In old school you can create a new character in 5 mins, and honestly I think they're just as memorable as 'modern' characters, if not more so.
@paulelephant9521 8 күн бұрын
Absolutely agree with the ending comments about not being a fan of overly complex backstories. I feel character built during play is soooo much more impactful and interesting, Also makes killing a character which a player has written a four page essay about more troublesome, and I think that lethality of old school d&d is important for the feel of the game. A player who's character was nearly killed by a sneak goblin attack is going to roleplay their fear/hatred much better than someone who 'hates goblins because they invaded my village', plus too much backstory can dilute the effects of these traits picked up during actual play. Keep it simple imo, I can generate a new character in 10 mins in AD&D, even an mu, no need to choose feats/special abilities/pages of backstory etc.
@Darkwintre Ай бұрын
Just received my copy of this and I'm very curious about this.
@sumdude4281 Ай бұрын
Honest to goodness this is the best video on the topic ever. You guys nailed everything. Subing
@sumdude4281 Ай бұрын
If everyone has magic (5e) then no one has magic.
@sumdude4281 Ай бұрын
My players loved the special powers of 5e BUT it was just too much for them to track. As busy adults they prefer OSE b/c it's simplicity with less to track. Yes, number one reason. I couldn't keep track of all the spells and rules as a DM. Yes, its a foundation you can add cool things too. It's a bolt on system. Yes, 5e is high fantasy super hero. Man you guys are nailing everything.
@TheAurgelmir Ай бұрын
One thing of note about early D&D: Players were expected to have many characters they rotated. Thus Tomb of Horrors can make more sense as a "gamble"
@TheAurgelmir Ай бұрын
One thing I realized when talking about the "what media are we emulating" is the following: The more supernatural the setting, the more important it is to have strict rules on what can and cannot be done. You need the "long jumper" ability to do long jumps etc. But, if your setting is "realism with magic" then everything becomes more about how you'd approach a similar situation using real world logic. Which also makes it possible to have a much freer system of rules on how things are handled - and magic can become less codified too.
@TheAurgelmir Ай бұрын
I play Worlds Without Number, but it's not too far from OSE in terms of character creation etc. I have found that some players don't really take so well to the semi-random generation of characters. Usually it comes down to thinking of characters as something you pre-generate and think out, rather than something that inspires you as you build it. I personally much prefer the sort of associative generation, where an odd background roll + stat spread might make an odd character I would never have thought of myself. Also 5E I feel is too focused on combat skills - thus people build the combat characters. Thus their character is a hammer, so the whole world becomes a nail.
@tacky4237 Ай бұрын
i love this so much. If i didn't have rules cyclopedia this would be my go to.
@jenningscunningham642 Ай бұрын
Personally I am diehard waiting for Dolmenwood
@warlok363 Ай бұрын
4d6 drop lowest has been around a while.
@TowelBoyCSGO 2 ай бұрын
Love y’all’s podcasts, I really enjoy listening to you guys just talking about DM perspectives and experiences. Hope yall keep making more videos like this and videos related to the osr
@cavalier973 3 ай бұрын
At the 10:59 mark, a commercial for deodorant broke in. “In Old School Essentials, I feel that it’s easier for the players to keep track of-STINKY PITS AND FEET!”
@BlackBirdMagic 2 ай бұрын
That's hilarious!😆
@cavalier973 2 ай бұрын
I was confused for a brief moment. “This conversation just took a completely unexpected turn.”
@RealNemo235 3 ай бұрын
Hey, Stuart. Great video. You may remember me from the ancient days of blogging and G+. Hope to see more stuff soon.
@BlackBirdMagic 3 ай бұрын
Thanks. Great to hear from you again! :)
@swordsnstones 3 ай бұрын
totally agree, if yer open to homebrewed osr please let me know and i will send you mine to read..would love some feedback
@benharder7816 4 ай бұрын
So, I've been learning a lot more about OSE (and Dolmenwood), and have been trying to reconcile it with 5e. As I was reading again through the 5e PHB and DMG with the context of OSE, I realized that they are written very differently from any other 5e book. Many rules assume the player knows about resource management, overland travel, dungeon crawling equipment, and all these other classic DnD things, but leaves the rules terribly open-ended. Then, the adventure modules, monsters, and classes do not work to implement these ideas and if they do, it is not meaningful. The original Ranger is perhaps the best example of getting left without any support because the exploration pillar is so weakly written within the rules.
@Goshin65 4 ай бұрын
OG DM '81. I tried 5e for a couple years and it drove me half crazy, especially after 5th level. Went back to my first love, B/X (actually Basic Fantasy which is BX streamlined with ascending armor class, otherwise about the same). Glad to see many younger players and DMs are switching to the OSR, it's just a better set of games IMO.
@GothridgeManor 4 ай бұрын
I love lists like this because my list is fluid. And your take on goblins is how I run mine. Makes them so much fun. And I've corrected my mistake of not knowing you had a YT channel. Subscribed!
@FelloniusWizard 4 ай бұрын
Haven't read/seen OSE, I'll add another difference between 5e and 2ed. I've tried both, and there's definitely more Role Playing going on in 2ed. In 5e it's more of a computer game versus enemies. What the DM talks about, isn't that interesting, (unledd it's about light clothed ladies with green hair, (special case, I know)). It also connects to the part of shopping as a group, where many decisions needs to be taken before setting out and that happens as Role Playing, (seldom including the DM). OK, that might end up with this qoute from a gaming night; PC shops around for an afternoon trip, when suddenly the "stupid" cleric asks: -"Do we have tents enough for every one?".
@Shu_BLN 4 ай бұрын
I love 5e and also like OSR games but I cannot relate with most of what you are saying.
@parttimed.m.1111 4 ай бұрын
Just joined. I enjoy your banter
@benjaminkidd2655 4 ай бұрын
While it’s interesting to think that the flexible options in MtG deckbuilding informed WotC’s thinking in developing 3e’s option-rich system, TSR was already moving in that direction with the Player’s Option and Complete [class name] books in the mid-90s. Talislanta also has tons of player options, and WotC published that game well before they did MtG.
@kevinsullivan3448 4 ай бұрын
I started playing with TSR products in 1981, but by 1986 I was playing or running 8 different game systems. When 2E AD&D came out everyone I knew who played either was loo0king forward to it or didn't care because they played other games and there were so many different games at the time that you could run/play 30 games and none of them needed to be a TSR product. Years later, back home in my small town, I heard about 3E and I was looking forward to it, but after I got my books and read them I realized that while the game fixed the issue of "A 5th lvl fighter is the same as every other 5th lvl fighter and a 5th lvl Thief is the same as every other 5th lvl Thief" the mathematical method of character advancement was a turn off. Gone were the days when a GM could just add the EX awards of monsters together, not you had to use tables and do math. I gave up on D&D-like games 20 years ago. There are still dozens of great games in other Genres to play that allow me to use my creativity to build settings and run interesting games.
@qsviewsrpgs4571 4 ай бұрын
I appreciate the analysis of the information presented, good stuff. I know for me, I like to play OSR and modern versions of TTRPGs. In my experience, the most fun my players have ever had is when I've ran campaigns that are a hybrid between the two.
@VengerSatanis 4 ай бұрын
Good video, I was thinking about making a video about my particular OSR preferences, so perhaps this is the nudge I needed...
@BlackBirdMagic 4 ай бұрын
Thanks Hoss! You should do that for sure.
@jeremydurdil556 4 ай бұрын
37 years ago TSR taught me to use a simple set of rules and my imagination to play a game with infinite variety and possibility. Its simplicity allowed me to modify and create any world and any style I wanted. I was saddened when TSR went under, surprised when ‘Magic’ bought D&D, and completely disinterested when Hasbro took over. I have watched for decades as this game I love has transformed from a simple set of rules and imagination to a complex labyrinth of actions, bonus actions, reactions and exploitative builds. I think a case could even be made that the game has grown so intentionally complex as to force it to a digital platform. As for me, I have my Rules Cyclopedia and my imagination. That’s all my friends and I have ever needed. Thanks again TSR, you changed the world!
@BlackBirdMagic 4 ай бұрын
There are things that are good for the RPG hobby and there are things that are good for the RPG industry. Sometimes they overlap... but not always.
@ninjasqurl4383 4 ай бұрын
I’m a very late comer to the OSR. I originally thought it stood for “Open System Reference” due to the SRD, system reference document, and the OGL. Since it was my understanding that is what paved the way for the OSR to flourish.
@BlackBirdMagic 4 ай бұрын
There was a lot of open source software thinking that went into the OGL, and the OGL was certainly popular with OSR types making 'retro-clones'. There were lots of other people happily continuing on with their AD&D campaigns that started in the 80s, and didn't pay much attention to that stuff. They were still part of those OSR conversations, especially on forums like Dragonsfoot and the Knights and Knaves Alehouse.
@vidgrip8622 4 ай бұрын
Best description of the OSR I have seen, and all under six minutes. Well done! I like to say that 5e ain't bad, but D&D truly reached its pinnacle in 1977. The OSR movement allows me to play some version of that TSR-era game every weekend. Life is good.
@beargenxgm 4 ай бұрын
Well done! Very good video, and well presented!
@pewprofessional3181 4 ай бұрын
The OSR is what D&D used to be. Not what WoketardsOfTheCoast turned it into. You don't take a game, flip it on its head, and completely change it, then call it the same game by slapping the D&D logo on it
@Drudenfusz 4 ай бұрын
That sounds just like another myth. I mean why the O then? With HAL there was at least a consistent letter down from IBM. Sure the OSR logo looks similar to the TSR one, but I would like to see evidence that the logo was actually made at the same time the term was first used.
@BlackBirdMagic 4 ай бұрын
The term was a riff on TSR. Source: I was part of the scene and made half the OSR logos you've seen on books. :)
@Drudenfusz 4 ай бұрын
@@BlackBirdMagic still does not explain why the O was chosen. And well, memories are unreliable.
@williamhoover6902 4 ай бұрын
People who complain about the “problematic” OSR are generally the same people that will flame the internet over gatekeeping D&D but ultimately want to gate keep the OSR for its independent thinking on the game and its rejections that external politics or culture war belong in the game. The OSR just wants to play the best rpg table it can and stays committed to that concept. Although its purpose is not to reject the group think of the WOTC game crowd, ultimately it does and that’s why they can’t tolerate it. The ironic thing is that it speaks more to how politically dominated the WOTC space has become that an apolitical space becomes a threat to it.
@RobOfTheNorth2001 4 ай бұрын
100% percent disagree. The OSR space and the rules of the games can be totally fine while we can still kick out the problematic personalities.
@sirellyn 4 ай бұрын
@@RobOfTheNorth2001 100% disagree with you. Many of us have seen this and have it happen personally over and over again. These activists infect any power centers they can. This includes publishers, judges, conventions, or any organizational structure. It's part of their woke religion, they are megalomaniacs at heart. This isn't just about "unruly players". Your denial just contributes to the banality of neutral evil.
@VengerSatanis 4 ай бұрын
100% agree with you, William Hoover. They call us problematic today just like they called us nerds and losers back in High School 30 years ago.
@thomriley1036 4 ай бұрын
As a fairly problematic individual with many thoughts that run counter to today's body politic, I would like to formally file my application for cancelation from The Community. Best thing for all parties, really. What exactly are the criteria for this process and who's in charge of it? I fear I may run a problematic campaign in the very near future and I don't want to do something that others may not approve of.
@BlackBirdMagic 4 ай бұрын
@@RobOfTheNorth2001 Kicking people "out of the OSR" is like kicking people out of being a gamer. It's not that kind of thing.
@Joker22593 4 ай бұрын
I play OSR style using 3.X rules. I know that may seem strange to some, but my group really likes it.
@MrBsberzerker 4 ай бұрын
Ew
@lugaruclone 4 ай бұрын
I think that is how DCC works.
@VengerSatanis 4 ай бұрын
@@MrBsberzerker Lol
@AngryPict 4 ай бұрын
I'd never come across the idea that OSR was initially a rif on TSR. Do you have a reference for this? I became aware of the term via OSRIC and other clones years ago. I'd heard the term OSR used often before I'd seen it as a variation of the TSR logo. I agree that the only thing folk seem to agree on in relation to it is that OS stands for old school. But then plenty folk will argue about what is classed as old school. The narcissism of small differences is strong here.
@BlackBirdMagic 4 ай бұрын
"I was there Gandalf..." I was part of those conversations back in the early days. I designed many of the different OSR logos that you see on published RPGs, and my friend designed the one I used in this video.
@AngryPict 4 ай бұрын
@@BlackBirdMagic thanks. I only became aware of the discussions around the definitions of the R and the tribalism in the past couple of years. Been playing since Moldvay (not just D&D though) and always just thought of them all as games, divided (if necessary) by genre. But that's just me in my tiny corner of the hobby. I do like the TSR style OSR logo, thought it was a nice wee homage. Wasn't aware of the development of it.
@johnhiggins6602 4 ай бұрын
I was there too, and I'd be very skeptical of this video's contents. It certainly doesn't match my recollection of the early days. The term "OSR" came from some anonymous Guest poster on Dragonsfoot in 2005, who suggested that "maybe an old-school renaissance might be on the horizon," and the phrase took on a life of its own. Nobody drew an analogy between the Old-School Renaissance and TSR until quite a bit later, and certainly nobody ever took other R's (Revival, Revolution, Rules, Roleplaying) the least bit seriously as alternative contenders. It was, from the beginning, only ever the Old-School Renaissance. The five part essay "A Historical Look at the OSR" on the OSR Simulacrum blog put it thusly: "The earliest use of this phrase I can locate is a casual bit of speculation by an anonymous poster on the future of the old-school in the Castles & Crusades subforum of Dragonsfoot (since rolled into a collective "Simulacrum" subforum), in June 2005. It popped up again in July 2006 on Dragonsfoot, used by long-time poster T Foster. It was in common usage by 2008 to refer to the wider boom in old-school materials and play (see for example the influential Fight On! magazine, the first issue of which was released in June 2008 and which billed itself as "A Fanzine for the Old-School Renaissance")."
@BlackBirdMagic 4 ай бұрын
@@johnhiggins6602 The term "old school RPG" was in use years earlier than 2005. This is a great demonstration of what I mentioned in the video about people not agreeing on the R. :) A lot of (at the time) younger gamers didn't feel as welcome on Dragonsfoot and spent more time in other places online like RPG.net. Posts using the terms Old School RPGs and Old School Roleplaying games appear there as early as 2002. The acronym "OSR" was definitely TSR inspired, particularly when turned into a logo and put on blog rolls or book covers.
@bopaintsminis 4 ай бұрын
I was a gamer in the pre-WotC days, but I was not around TTRPGs for 3.5 D&D. I am back playing RPGs, but have pretty much given up on D&D and its derivatives. As an outsider looking it I see another element to differentiate new D&D from other games, the relative squishiness of charaters in older games, and the new emphasis on the DM as "another player at the tabletop." So while I do not play according-to-Hoyle "OSR" games, I am very much an old-school roleplayer. In my games combat is brutal and short, and players can very easily die, with zero chance of resurrection. Similarly, as the GM I am the absolute god of my umiverse. The player characters are sojourners in it. And from what I understand that is a far cry from new school gaming. Thanks for the video.
@dmdc5719 4 ай бұрын
My brain go with OSR= Old School Roleplaying or roleplay. But that's just me.
@kevinsullivan3448 4 ай бұрын
But what does that mean? It is only games that use a d20, have descending Armor Class, strict and limited Classes, and no skills. OR It is the feel of the games you run where the world is not tame, your character could die at any time, equipment weight meant something, and the GM was GOD.
@dmdc5719 4 ай бұрын
@@kevinsullivan3448 I took the question of what is the OSR to be asking the acronym of it. In my brain it spells out Old School Roleplaying. Didn't intend for anything deeper than that. If you must have it though, then I would say the old school sort of feeling of a game I played when I first started out. A game that did have skills just not as many as those now-a-days. But achieving goels with characters was more difficult. Reaching the final room of a dungeon and/or escaping a dungeon was more difficult. It was grittier, way more challenging and brutal on characters. For me it was sessions where if you didn't have your wits about ya your character was done for.
@DocFlamingo 4 ай бұрын
This message is grognard approved. New sub.
@NemoOhd20 4 ай бұрын
Great list. Orcs of course need to be on the list, usually just the Hobbit/LOTR variety, slightly larger than goblins, less than a human, fights dwarfs on sight and always evil, but also sometimes with the Skyrim High Orc/True Orc variety (with the twist on Tolkien that little orcs are twisted versions of True Orcs). Bears, apes, giant snakes, spiders, aligators, crocks, sharks, octopus, etc. All that stuff you'd find on Conan, I love.
@ancientvaults 4 ай бұрын
Great video! Skipped over TARGA, I guess that is forgivable. I suppose. 🦇
@BlackBirdMagic 4 ай бұрын
Thanks! TARGA sort of falls under what I was talking about at 4:27 but they tried changing the term altogether.
@douglasphillips5870 4 ай бұрын
A problem is that people equate OSR with WotC DnD. One isn't a better version of the other, they're different systems.
@BlackBirdMagic 4 ай бұрын
Different people like different things and WotC's first D&D (3e) was certainly very popular. So was 4e and 5e for that matter. None of them are what people were talking about when they said OSR though.
@sirellyn 4 ай бұрын
Yes many OSR versions are DEFINITELY a better version of WotC's version. Especially the recent 5e garbage.
@TheBasicBrit1989 4 ай бұрын
Great conversation lads, your outlook on death in the game marries up very similar to mine. I have ran a lot of 4e, 5e and BFRPG games over the last few years and on the most part I think players know what they are signing up for but.... The amount of players especially online that get butt hurt at the idea of a character dying is increasing and it's unfortunate, some people have this sense of entitlement that this over produced, special and epic backstoried character shouldn't face the consequences of a life that in most game worlds would be the most insane profession. "What you want to go and raid tombs and fight hideous monstrosities for a living" that stuff comes with the CHANCE of death
@retrodmray 4 ай бұрын
Very excellent video, sir. Thank you! I'm very much a pre-WOTC DM/Gamer (as you put it). The way I use the term OSR is indeed Old School Roleplaying (feel, and rulings vs rules)....imho-only though. 🤓👍
@BlackBirdMagic 4 ай бұрын
I always thought renaissance and revolution sounded a little pretentious, and usually think of the R as roleplaying.
@atoad4451 4 ай бұрын
Wonderful video! The parallels between MtG deckbuilding and character builds was something I haven't heard so succinctly described before.
@BlackBirdMagic 4 ай бұрын
Thanks very much. :)
@BeckettWarren 4 ай бұрын
Came here to say the same thing. Mind blown
@destroso 5 ай бұрын
Do use any generators? Like the d30 sandbox?
@retrodmray 5 ай бұрын
I think, although this is an older vid, that you are both very spot-on with what you've shared here! Thnx 👍🤓
@davidschneider9747 5 ай бұрын
Nice conversation! Thanks from an old-school guy.
@obscurecomics5849 5 ай бұрын
As for tone, I tend to follow the player's lead. They're going to act how they want, so it is easier that way. And it makes a game they want to keep playing.
@josephpurdy8390 5 ай бұрын
1e ad&d night hag may give an advantage to players by ridding the world of a villain. A magic-user may be interested in what a night hag can provide to them. A deal with hag is not going to work in your favor. It may be tempting when its considered the lesser of two evils.
@perdurabo56 5 ай бұрын
9:00