Agreed. Not just 20 years of support. But after 9 printings of the C&C Player's Handbook -- rules are still 1st Ed. How cool is that!! Don't know of any company that has done this other than Troll Lord Games.

I agree for me i like the pre made adventures i can use for my game

Yeah, I feel the same way about the Trolls but I don't really enjoy the ruleset, unfortunately.

One of the things I love about C&C is that the core rules have never changed. The only real changes were at some point they changed the barbarian class from a berserker type barbarian to more of an outdoor-expert type Barbarian, and they changed the Illusionist class spell list. The interesting thing is you can still use the old barbarian class -- if you want, although I prefer the newer outdoor-expert barbarian. Also, the Castle Keeper's guide is a fantastic book! -- It is not required at all for play -- where it is useful is for advice and customization options. Ways to make the game more or less gritty, tweaks to the SIEGE engine, rules for point buy, etc.

@@NemoOhd20 understanding, not everyone likes the same things or have the same needs. I like it because it remembers enough AD&D 1st and 2nd without all the confusion or fat those systems had. It's very easy to throw random rules on top of it without breaking the game, in fact the whole siege engine is a invitation to just try things out. It loses a little bit of flavor the old ad&d versions had by making exceptions as rules. But for me it's a decent trade off.

@@quantus5875 indeed. It has a very robust and consistent core rule set. And the keepers guide is a very good dm guide.

I started to play C&C more after wotc went on a furry fest tangent

That downside is nullified if the party is interrupted by combat, then they have to roll a DC 15 to get any true rest. I would not allow them to just "sleep in" for another 8 hours.

@@DM_Bluddworth I've never liked the crazy sleep rules. Im old enough that the way you recover hit points is to leave the caves and return to the keep.

Played SD twice and enjoyed it! But we all really disliked the torch timer rules -- easy enough to fix -- we just house ruled the torch timer rules out. I always say if you don't like a rule just house rule it out.

@@quantus5875 exactly. I don't really like the timer thing either. Feels like a gimmick tacked on, like chrome bumpers or something.

TBH I don't dwell on the EV system in C&C. I apply common sense and will ask the players "How you plan on carrying that?". But, ShadowDark's 10-slot system works really well too. BTW, the 10-slot system is an ICRPG / Runehammer influence on SD.

Yes, Basic Fantasy is an awesome game! And the king of value. $8.50 for the player's book in print! And everything is free on PDFs on the web site. I can't think of any other game that can equal BF in terms of bang for the buck. Yes, you can do POD with many OSR games -- but still more expensive than an $8.50 book. Both SD and BF are great games. The way I compare them is SD is a simplified D&D 5thEd with OSR goodness thrown in, and BF starts out with BX and cleans it up and modernizes it a bit (and does not use race as a class). Both are super simple games to learn and play. As a starter game for new players, I prefer BF slightly -- only because the starting cost is almost nil, and it is nil if you're ok with PDFs. Free PDFs for everyone at the table! -- and like I said the player guide in print is only $8.50. You can buy 4 books for your players for ~$35!!

Nope, ShadowDark for me is strictly a convention play and adventure writing / publishing game system.

I'm rooting for the pally!

“House Rules”…. Everything since 1974 has been house rules. “Over hyped”, nope. It is a solid contender for top three best game systems to introduce new players to the hobby.

​@@DM_Bluddworth Agreed. To add to what you said I'd even argue that there's really been nothing new as far a game mechanics go since around the mid 90s. I can trace most game mechanics concepts back to the 70s to the mid 90s. Anything from the mid 90s and up has really just been tweaks (derivatives) on the concepts that were published in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. One of my sub-interests are TTRPGs from the 70s and it is amazing how many ideas came out of the 70s and 80s, examples: skills - Empire of the Petal Throne (1975), mana points - Tunnels & Trolls (1975), point buy for character creation in Superhero 2044 (1977), luck points in Top Secret (1980)... 1990s is what I call the splat book and settings decade. Tons of innovation in the settings and splat book areas during the 90s.

@@DM_Bluddworth Hey -- that's another idea for a video! Although probably been done before but would be interesting. For new players -- I give TONS of points to Paizo, WoTC, and Chaosium for producing Starter Kits or Beginner boxes. Still have fond memories of teaching my 10-year-old niece and 12-year-old nephew (at the time) how to play Pathfinder 1Ed using the Beginner Box. They loved playing Pathfinder with the beginner box, and it was so easy for young kids to learn to play with such an amazing beginner box like that. Castles & Crusades has a QuickStart and so does ShadowDark -- but would love to see a beginner box version of C&C - done like the Chaosium RuneQuest, CoC, or Pendragon starter sets. Not sure if you've checked out the new Pendragon 7Ed starter set -- but beautiful game -- and not exactly new -- but they really expanded the rules and guidance for using female knights. Haven't played it or DMed it yet -- but would love to run a Pendragon campaign.

Castles & Crusades has a white box, which is a starter box and homage to OD&D white box. So yes it has been done before.

​@@DM_Bluddworth Great point! Never thought of it that way -- I'm not super familiar with the white box (I do own a PDF copy of the 2019 print of the white box rules - but have never played the white box version). Yes, you're right you could consider it a starter set -- and in any event you do bring up a very good point -- by using the C&C white box to teach new players it easily equals the simplicity of games like ShadowDark, OSE, and Basic Fantasy, Lamentations of the Flame Princess, etc. Learned something new. Thanks! Great option to get new players into TTRPGs! And like you said super cost effective the white box (2019 print) is $49.99 and $15 for the PDFs.