I LOVE removable head shells for the very reason you just described. It’s like tube rolling for turntables. I wish it were the norm rather than the exception. Thank you for watching.

Those features cost money for manufacturers. So, they scam consumers by saying their tables are better because they are inconvenient. Note that they say semi-auto or auto introduce audible noise but never provide evidence. Beware of any manufacturer that says, "this is a high quality product, but you need to also buy x,y, and z to make it work well.

The fluance doesn’t sound good?

@@mattmcgourty7971 I didn’t think it was even close. Not saying the Fluance was bad, it just wasn’t nearly as good as the Music Hall

AJC i agree. The standard for TT:s are too low when delivered Project ned a power it supply to not hum not ok for a 400 dollar TT!

Weirdly - I remember a world where a button to change speed was such a basic feature that it was on almost every turntable ;) I have been looking through a lot of "new" products - and it seems to me that most vintage turntables after a bit of TLC will be just as fine as they were back 30 years ago... and with most of them you get better features.

@@TheSensor123 The important specs--wow and flutter and speed stability--are MUCH better on vintage tables. As for the features, the audiophile community has convinced itself that Direct Drive tables are noisier than belt driven tables (The noise from each type--known as "rumble"--runs about -50 to -80 decibels, which is below the ability of humans to hear.) Audiophiles want goal to make vinyl use difficult so that it will remain as an "elite" hobby.

@@darensweeney5925 hello.just try the new technics sl 1200 gr....

Blame Pro-Ject, Rega and others that have two pulleys for the two speeds. If you want to go true modern high-end, go for direct drive.

The brilliance comes from the cartridge, not the table. TTs don't have "sounds." Those who say they do never point to measurable or experimental evidence. It's all belief and fairy dust. Btw, check Andrew's Crosley review in which he contradicts much of what he says here.

@@darensweeney5925 I very respectfully disagree, Darren. But before I say anything more, I want this to be a dialog, not a contest. I have definitely owned turntables that have introduced noise, despite all of my best efforts. Certain direct-drive turntables, for example, have introduced “cogging” noises that have been well-documented by others. There are also well-documented “sympathetic" harmonic distortions that happen in certain inexpensive turntables that have been described as well. If you’d like, I’d be open to a private dialog. In my experience, though, turntables have certainly introduced noise, despite the many high-end cartridges that I’ve used with them. I’m an old-hand at this, Daren. Let’s have this dialog, if you'd like. Best wishes!

I liked the Fluance RT85 so much I ordered one, received it, and set it up. Unfortunately the auto stop function did not work at all. So much so that the platter kept turning until the cart was literally touching the spindle. Sent two videos to customer service for a demo. They agreed it was defective and asked me to return it for repair, not a new one. I sent it back for a refund. A review of the RT84 I watched indicated it would stop but only after about 17-18 revolutions. This made me a bit leery the Music Hall Classic could have the same problem. Other than the big clumsy feet (which can be replaced) it is a very attractive tt with many nice features. I don't thing MH would put a bad cart on the machine, but if I decide to go with it, will most likely try it with a Nagaoka or Goldring.

Thank you. I try and keep things simple and easy for everyone to follow. Appreciate you watching.

Thank you!!!

I bought a Crosley C20 and it had preformed amazingly for me. Seems like it's discontinued which is a shame considering it's a pro-ject table with an amazing zebrano wood finish. I gotta say, crosley tried to sell a quality table, but the bridge had already been burned for the consumer.

@@zachsmith1443 That's a nice table. It's amazing to think that the Crosley badge puts our turntables into the same class as those ridiculous portable 'record players-in-a-suitcase'. I don't care... I'm really happy with the look and performance of my C8. Something tells me that many of these turntables by Pro-ject, Teac, Crosley, MH, Fluance, etc come out of the same factory somewhere in Asia (Taiwan?). Some of the tonearms are identical on a number of these branded turntables.

How see you liking it so far?

this, better tonearm

Make a choice after hearing them! It matters! Dont buy schiit mani or a used technics before listening ans knowing it works well!

"Hi-Fi" is usually $2500+. Think VPI, Linn, etc. This is technically low-end Mid-Fi: $500-2500

He’s right to real Audiophiles it’s entry. I have to give him that.

It is not he's fault he are poor... Sorry...

Thanks?

Appreciate you subscribing!

It was. Most of Music Hall's carts were made by others. This one's the second AT cartridge with their name on it.

Good to know. Never had one not work before. Glad to know I’m not crazy. Thank you for watching.

Really? My dual 704 is FLAWLESS with its auto lift function.

utub shame on me as a German, I never had a Dual 😂

@@mschorer Haha they're pretty good turntables. I can't lie the construction of them is just a little flimsy in my opinion but as long as you're gentle with them they work pretty good. My only complaint is that they don't have a ground screw to attach a ground wire so every once and a while mine will just BLOW up.

Well said. When it works be grateful! Results may vary over time;)

This is the scam of the modern day TT manufacturers--give you less and convince you it's more. BTW, much of MH's TT have been using Pro-ject parts for years. Its tonearms used to say ,"pro-ject" right on the arm! So to describe this table as a cross between the 2 companies is a bit disingenuous.

There is a Crosley or Ion in your future

@@veedub95 I'm not that bad I promise! I've an older Sony turntable capable of playing two speeds and three sizes fully automatically. I took it apart and was surprised to see how simple and intuitive the whole mechanism was, so much so that it baffled me as to why this level of convenience hadn't been replicated on any of the good quality turntables of today. It's frustrating to see that all the knowledge and capability of the vintage hifi world is being completely ignored by modern companies despite it being ridiculously easy to do so.

@@veedub95 did you see Andrew's recent review in which he praises a Crosley? Nice try, though. Lol

That would be the Billie Integrated Amplifier I reviewed kzfaq.info/get/bejne/r5h-Z5miuryuoZ8.html

Halfway J as with so many things - lots of voodoo!

Hell if I know, probably a lot of marketing BS.

I think it has something to do with how the cartridge is aligned and what type of cartridge you are using. Some people say it's just done to aesthetics

The main and the only secure is that it looks cooler, other than that maybe less vibrations (the S may dampen them a little, and also the curve is on the arm instead than on the usually less rigid headshell). Also headshells are straight and maybe cheaper. That being said I am pretty sure the difference is not be enough to make an S tonearm better than a straight tonearm of a class even slightly above.

The quick answer will be - distortion due to tracking error ! S shaped win vs. the strait one . By the way I like Andrew`s honest opinions. These reviews are very user oriented ! Not the typical nonsense and lack of engineering knowledge I saw in other "audio-fulls" magazines and You tube channels ... If you need more technical I will recall some information available in the books and the web : ... "... The difference between the tracking angle, φ and the offset angle β, has been termed tracking error and is designated the symbol α. Tracking error indicates how short of perfection the arrangement is. For several years the pure goal of selecting an alignment so that the tracking angle departed least from an average angle (to which the crank was set) was considered the holy-grail of tonearm design. That was until Löfgren and Baerwald considered the mechanisms behind distortion of the audio signal due to tracking error. Distortion is directly proportional to the amplitude and frequency of the modulation. It is also directly proportional to tracking error. ...No surprises there! ... Thus distortion due to tracking distortion is greater towards the centre of the record where the stylus is passing more slowly in the groove. And it is worse the slower the record turns. It's easy to see why the birth of the LP (turning at 40% of the speed of the 78 RPM record) rekindled concerns to reduce tracking distortion to a minimum. ... " ...enough background info - Optimization ! . A problem solved - When fitting a modern tonearm to a turntable, the tonearm manufacturer, knowing the bend angle and effective length of the arm and fully understanding the alignments of Löfgren and Baerwald, will always specify the distance of the centre of the tonearm pivot mounting to the spindle centre to guarantee the optimum geometry. Nothing could be simpler. By applying the mathematics, the manufacturer has done the "heavy-lifting" for us. All the enthusiast need do is to make one measurement. But just as a perfect answer seems to be available, disaster befalls us. Because no standard exists to define the stylus tip from the mounting lug centres of a phono cartridge, it forces most tonearm manufacturers to provide mounting slots so that the cartridge may be shuffled forward and backwards in its mountings. Thus the effective length (L) of the arm becomes undefined, the user able to adjust this by perhaps ± 5mm. And, because the slots allow one side of the cartridge to sit forward or rearward of the other, the cartridge may be skewed and thus the offset angle (β) may be modified by as much as a horrifying ± 30°. Plugging real values into the expression,   Hd ≈ (ω . A . α ) / (ωr . r ) for 33⅓ RPM (= 3.49 radians/sec) records with a (standardised) innner radius of 60mm modulated with a 250Hz sinewave to a maximum modulation of 38µm pk (27µm RMS) leads to the following useful rule of thumb: The distortion in %THD ≈ αdeg ÷ 2. So that, a tracking error of 5° will lead to THD of approximately 2.5% at the innermost groove on a 250Hz tone at maximum modulation. Distortion at the outer edge of the disc is approximately 40% of that at the innermost groove. A full 6° of tracking error is required to cause 1% distortion on an outermost groove spiral (on our 250Hz example). Given this information, it's easy to appreciate that, if the proper geometry is observed, it is quite possible to reduce lateral tracking distortion to levels where it is insignificant compared with other distortions present in record replay. AND NOW THE S SHAPED ARM: (for the example we will use the tonearm of the Technics SL-1200 Mk.2) Specifications of the tonearm for the Technics SL-1200 Mk.2 are: effective length 230mm; overhang 15mm; and offset angle 22°. This alignment chosen by the Matsushita engineers was not Löfgren /Baerwald. Instead the alignment concentrates on minimising the tracking error near the innermost groove. If we redraw the Technics alignment, we can once again, substitute real values into the expression for 33⅓ RPM (= 3.49 radians/sec) records, modulated with a 250Hz sinewave to a maximum modulation of 38µm pk (27µm RMS),   Hd ≈ (ω . A . α ) / (ωr . r ) The worst tracking error is at the outer edge of the disc (≈150mm) where the error is +2°. This leads to less than 0.5% THD. The other point of major tracking error is at r = 80mm where the error is about -1°. Substituting this data in the equation for THD reveals a very low 0.3%. ... " Conclusion! Discounting the quality of other parts, the “S” arm ideally offers the least lateral and vertical tracking distortion followed closely by the “J” and then in far-last place the “I” arm. Generally, “S” arms are not seen in small TTs. The “I” arms can mounted in smaller or larger TTs but will retain the most stylus distortion and are the most sensitive to cartridge adjustments and outside influence like jolts and footfalls, vertical distortions. Why are “I” arms popular? If you are smart, don’t believe the propaganda machines. Because they are new? Nope. It is new economics at work. Manufacturers save money in cost yet charge more to consumers that get far less performance. It costs less in materials to construct a smaller table and straight arms. On the other hand, imagine what it would cost today to engineer, or even find an engineer, then make performance oriented TTs with precision bent arms. Long arms are a better design as the arc the arm moves across is larger and LINEAR tracking would be THE BEST if the world was prefect. Because of the extra pivot offset, extra arm length, combined with the angled head shell and extra inertial weight, the angled arm benefits with much less groove angle distortion and, ultimately, smoother sounding music.

I have not directly A-B compared the two so I cannot comment good or bad and do not wish to lead you in the wrong direction. Sorry.

@@andrewrobinsonreviews thanks for the reply sir. Just discovered your channel and have subscribed. Keep making those great videos. Thanks!

I believe a Fluance is on the way but I don’t know which.

@@andrewrobinsonreviews good to hear. I hope it's the rt85 because I'm leaning towards buying that one

Just purchased a Fluance RT85. They had a special including a 80 dollar preamp. It comes with an Ortophon Blue, all for $499. Hard to beat, I think it sounds great but I also like my Dual 1229!!

I would get The Fluance. It and this table are rebadge Asian tables.

Heath Vance He’ll the 1200 is the holy grail. I was using those back in. The 80s and 90’s. As when I ran clubs I had 6 of them. Could of sold them today and bought a car. 1200 from back then. On the point. With vynil. Ahhh I miss the woman oh well.

@@SuperMatrix59 those turntables are rock solid. And the 80s and 90s, those were the best times indeed.

I’ll have to take your word for it. Thank you for watching.

The Teac is not auto stop. Chalk and cheese.

Have not personally demoed the 7.3 so I cannot say one way or another.

Look up LUXMAN for the new made gear but it is expensive and they have great vintage also..

Uh yes it can and does actually.

Bkkersey93 but, would you say, you’d have to spend upwards of $600 to equal the vintage sound and quality? That’s what I see. Esp when you’re looking at the vintage denon’s and Technics and pioneers.

Historically Thorens is a great brand but in reference to that specific model, I have no personal knowledge and cannot comment one way or another.

Welcome! They change from video to video. The ones here are bit.ly/3oyx6Yv. You'll typically find this information in the description beneath the video so be sure to check there if you are ever curious.

Zf

Glad you enjoyed it

Did you see my Technics 1500C review?

I haven't heard it.

If you don’t require a built in house phono preamp then I would say the RT85.

@@andrewrobinsonreviews Thanks for the reply. I was leaning that way so thanks for the extra push. My receiver has a built in Phono preamp so I'm good there. It sounds really good with the U-Turn Orbit that is hooked up now but that is going to my son who is getting into vinyl.

I think you'll like the RT85 (I really like mine) and see it as a moderate but noticeable sound upgrade to the Orbit.

Thank you

With an Ortofon 2M installed on the Denon you currently have, I have to think, no, the Classic would NOT be a significant (if any) upgrade.

@@andrewrobinsonreviews thnx a bunch

@@andrewrobinsonreviews in that case I wish I had gone with that Denon. Turntable Lab here in NYC features that model constantly with the Ortofon upgrade at a very reasonable price, quite a bit less than what I paid for this Music Hall (especially since this model’s auto-stop feature isn’t working for me)

Look in the back of the turntable. From what it seems, the auto stop and lift functions can be toggled/disabled via two switches in the back.

@@theerrantwanderer I see only one switch for this function on the back, not two. You can turn the auto-stop function on or off. No matter which position I have that switch in, it behaves the same way: it doesn’t turn off. Sometimes if I don’t catch it in time, it makes a kind of grinding/squealing noise, and the lights under the “33” and 45” buttons start flashing red.

@@slacktoryrecords4193 I mistook one of the switches for the power button, since I typed the earlier comment without looking at pictures of the back of the tt. I don't actually have this turntable, so that is the most I can do to help you.

You'll find those details in the description beneath the video.

Stay tuned...

He did closeups like at 13:34 The story telling setup/style is just a way some people like and some don't... I think it is acceptable (I also view Steve Guttenberg who does about the same review style). What I like most, is when reviewers open up the device and show us the the quality of the inside. Because often a product is made to look and feel fancy on the outside, while it's actually not that great. In that case, the lack of quality is often hidden on the inside.

This.

Most gear of any persuasion nowadays has parts or "innards" made from Chinese sourced factories, this is nothing new or surprising.

Totally appreciate you watching and I understand the request however, we do not do sound demos on this channel. There is no way that a digitally compressed file (from KZfaq) played through your listening device will give you an accurate representation of this product. So we just don't do them.

Buy the best Rega you can afford. Save for Rega Planar3- a no-brainer tt that is the best VALUE in tt’s.

@@keeferdog5617 i have already an rp3,technics Sl1200gr and a project 1xpression.....thanks anyway....

@@giorgiokavallaris5718 how do you compare P3 vs SL1210GR ?

@@babauziux in my opinion are both excellent and in the price range until 1500euro they have no competition. If you planning to buy rega consider that the best value for money is P6 ( in my opinion) How they sound ??? Depends a lot on the pre phono and cartridge .Technics solid bass ,black backround .Rega more (pseudo??)musical. Consider also that srm tech silent base is a must for rega as really reduces backgroud noise (outboard motor) .I think only then rega is competitive to Technics(so silent Technics is).

Hey, some of us are into that

It kinda is though. If you want a decent turntable that sounds good, won't damage your records, and is of good quality, $400 is considered entry-level. Those plastic piles of junk from big department stores aren't worth the materials they're made from. They sound shit, and their geometry is wrong so they will damage your records. There's plenty of proof of this on the net if you care to look. In reality, if you want a properly good turntable you have to spend over a grand. At $599 this thing is a bit of a bargain. Cheers.

The RT85 is my recommendation, 100%. amzn.to/2LBtX7L

Andrew Robinson Thanks brother

@@andrewrobinsonreviews Thanks, love your review and had the same question between Fluance RT-85 and this. Will go with your recommendation!

@@andrewrobinsonreviews what about if you listen to mostly downtempo bass music? Ive heard the rt85 is very forward and mechanically sounding, I like a warm sound on a record player

@@andrewrobinsonreviews is it because of the Ortofon 2M Blue (which I assume sounds better to you) vs the Music Hall Spirit cartridge? Or are there other non-cartridge reasons why you would recommend the Fluance over the Music Hall?

It is nice. Thank you for watching!

In my opinion it's a cool feature, you can enjoy music while doing something else (or even get to sleep) and not needing to rush to the turntable when the side of the disk ends. In fact it's a feature Technics added to the 1500c.

Marco Toselli totally agree. My Technics 1300 has the same feature.

@@karellen00 that's a good point. I once made out with a girl back in the 90s with Black Celebration by Depeche Mode on my cheap Sony Turntable with the auto lift at the end. Those cheap turntables aren't bad once you take a tiny screwdriver and adjust the pitch to the correct speed.

I’ll see what I can do. Thank you for watching.

I got into vinyl this year and bought the MMF 1.5 as my first turntable, it sounds great and I couldn't have been happier to skip to a decent entry level and pass over the cheap ones. I feel like the MMF 1.5 will hold my interest for a while before needing to upgrade the table.

Lot of folks use OEM products re-branded as their own, it's just the way of it now. I don't hold it against MH.

Yes