Me personally, I'm happy the tides are turning against the biomechanics gurus. That stuff has been getting out of hand for long enough.

I once did full ROM and my dog died

The pendulum swings. We were tired of meatheads saying machines and form doesn’t matter, now we are exhausted by the cyborgs. The truth is somewhere in the middle

I mean when your curling if you are not standing straight with your shoulder back chest up high oriented 15 degrees to the sun 30 to the moon with the pinkys slightly flared to 12 degrees with 15 second concentric and 15 minutes slow mind muscle connected cow udder milked eccentric jarred feather approved and mike isreatle signed off form, then gee whiz I am not completely sure with out reasonable doubt that you want big arms

Bro the Technique Cyborg Army got to his location soon as the video cut out

Sorry for the abrupt ending…

This thumbnail makes you look like a 40 year old dad planning to talk about politics from his pickup truck 😂

the form from those cyborgs looks ridiculous, and I feel the extremely slow eccentrics RP forces people through (like the chest training with Alex Leonidas) to be overkill. Yet Mike and Jared don't even actually train this way. Watch them bench and you'll see 1-2 second eccentrics, but with Alex they forced a 3-4 second eccentric.

Yeah, good luck progressing the lifts if you stop as soon as the lift gets ugly. Muscle does not care about perfect form, it cares about if its engaged or not, you dont need PERFECT CYBOTG META FORM to actually do that.

100% agree that getting big to get strong > getting strong to get big. Once that clicks with the majority of powerbuilders they will be far better off.

"ego techniquing"

I do think RP gives a fasely precise view on training. There is a lot more play in the joints than they indicate and i do believe it turns people off of training at times

Really sorry to hear about your basement and sickness, Landon. Appreciate you taking the time to make a video though!

Very happy this is the type of “controversy” this community is dealing with

but muh stimulus to fatigue ratio!

People just need to do what works for them. I personally benefited a great deal from focusing more on technique and mind muscle connection. I was noticeably less developed when I did sloppier less controlled reps. If that works well for you, then continue on.

I tried the strict technique thing and found some exercises wanted it and others didnt. The ones where i got more stretch (weighted pushups on some bars as an example) ans was still able to progress my progress exploded The ones where my qeight had to go down to compensate for the extra ROM (overhead tricep extensions as an example) i stalled. No strength or size gains (i keep measurements and a log) Definitely felt like I wasted some time but it was something I had to try and now something I know I wont waste my time doing again.

A couple thoughts who trains very ‘RP’ like lol. - I’m glad you are feeling better from your sickness - I have certainly seen people be so anal regarding their technique that they end up sacrificing potential stimulus, however, I find this is usually a misapplication of principles more than anything else - I agree that from a quick glance it seems the point is too lift the least wait possible but it’s more about making a lift more isolated if possible given the sense of disruption is not sacrificed. - This is why many people stick with it, it’s because they get multiple times the pump/ soreness etc with a fraction of the weight. It’s the stimulus which guides that decision not the weight. I’m sure some people misapply this tho. - I feel like throughout the broader discussion of this on the interwebs is a conflation of the rom stuff Rp pushes and strictness concept. Those two don’t have to go together, you can be strict with a technique that doesn’t use full rom. - to those in the comment section who believe that you can’t go hard and simultaneously have strict technique: That is a skill that can be developed and every sport requires it for maximal development in that sport. If you can’t do both and can’t get better at doing both (whether it’s because your too scared to go hard or to emotional to have focus), it is a training psychology issue and nothing more.

Great video. I’m glad I finally realized full ROM is not always optimal. For example, with my leverages when I go as deep as possible on leg press (as I learned from RP videos, I get a ton of glute and hip activation whereas if I stop just past parallel it’s almost entirely quads.

The cyborg fairies lol. None of those folks are jacked but they all have perfect technique

Mike is as close to a good source as possible when it comes to PED users giving advice to natural people. However, his volume and technique recommendations show that the water has been muddled throughout the years.

Honestly, I think it’s important to incorporate both in training. Idk how many times I hit a plateau lifting heavy. So I lighted the weight up and did a couple sessions of lighter/ more strict form just to find an increase going back to heavy. I feel varying stimulus is very beneficial.

I am sorry my king for being late it will never happen again. basement

Do you have a sump pump with battery backup? That helped with minor flooding back at my old house with a fucked up basement with half thickness retaining walls. Still major floods we couldnt do anything about

Just love your process and measure what your goals are and don’t let other people tell you your goals are wrong.

Maybe its a small thing but I think the attitude 'getting big will help you get strong' is understood to be a long term goal/focus and not going to happen in a few months or a year, whereas people who say 'get strong to get big' generally speaking still include a 'get rich quick' belief that you can gain lots of strength quickly, which outside of noob gains/specialist training programmes generally won't happen and can only happen for a few weeks before hitting a wall or more likely regressing, and on top of all that is more likely to cause injury.

what's the goal? build as much muscle possible in the safest way possible. how to? be in the sweet spot where you stimulate the muscle to grow best, use weight you can control to get that stimulus, and not have your sets be so easy that there isn't much resistance and tension the muscle has to fight against.

Dr Mike doesn’t even train the way he “trains”, as far as I see it, it’s just a torture session for the views

Thanks I felt this one was a bit off topic though and focussed on strength vs hypertrophy. Instead of lifting technique / ROM etc being strict vs more loose for hypertrophy. Not meaning to be critical just my view!

Nuanced bodybuilding strikes again...love it

I learned some great stuff from Dr Mike and from those who criticize him. I love learning great stuff

I understood the sentiment that both GVS and Bromley were presenting, but I also feel he was potentially misrepresenting beliefs of Mike and Jared on how to train based on a few posts. Those posts lack detail, which leads lots of room for interpretation and prescription - which is also a problem of its own. I see that as the topics of "optimal," "biomechanics-based," or "science-based" training is talked about, as with most things, leads to discussions that are steeped in tribal mentality. It seems it always has to be black-and-white, us-vs-them in this world. People can't seem to have basic discussions about things without becoming divided. What is “optimum” is dependent on context and individualized factors. We can’t say what is best or isn’t best for anyone. Science can inform, but it can't prescribe. That doesn't mean it has absolutely no value and that we shouldn't listen to what it says. Unfortunately for science, there are many people out there who fail to understand what it is and misrepresent the data presented in studies. As with most things, "optimal training" is not black-and-white, and we need to stop treating it like it is. Maybe what these individuals in these posts by RP were doing WAS optimal FOR THEM at the moment in time, maybe it wasn’t. Maybe using more loose form, using a faster tempo, and using some body-English would be better, but then again maybe it wouldn’t. It’s difficult to say because it simply depends on a whole host of factors specific to that individual and even things like equipment design. When GVS discussed that someone should add more weight when the concentric is too easy got me thinking about when I do seated leg curls. When I do leg curls, I pick a weight that gets me around 10 -12 reps with 3RIR. The concentric lasts only about 2 seconds, which is controlled but not exceedingly long or unreasonable because if I shorten the time I'm just gonna be banging shit and letting the weight fall. With this weight I sometimes bang the weight at the top during the concentric. If I add more weight, sure it may make the concentric harder, the reps I'm able to perform will certainly fall, and it may lead to a less forceful concentric. That said, 10-12 reps is NOT an unreasonably high rep range. It's a range that is effective for muscle growth. Adding more weight may certainly make the concentric harder, but it may not provide MY hamstrings with enough stimulus. Maybe it would be, but maybe not. I guess the point here is that just because someone may make the concentric look easy or accidently bang some weight during the concentric does not mean it's too easy and they aren't working hard and that it would be better if they added more weight. At this point, all we can really say to anyone is: 1.) Stop criticizing and judging anyone for what they are doing and focus on yourself. Instead, perhaps you should encourage them or show support for the fact that they are out there doing something to better themselves. 2.) Get your ass to the gym, work hard, do your best, have fun, and do that on a consistent basis.

Renaissance Diet (the book) completely changed how it is I set my macros for whatever goals I would want, but I take lifting advice from folks who DON’T share my similar goals with a massive grain of salt, no matter how qualified. 80-20 rule stands in cases like this.

Personally, I'm training with not so strict technique with some body English at the stretch parts. I like to use heavier weight training rather than super strict light weight training

Hey Guys i work every week different shifts week 1 6:00-14:00 week 2 14:00-22:00 week 3 22:00-6:00 then repeat. Does having every week a different bed time makes it more diffecult for me to build muscle? My sleep is good i sleep at least 8 hours minimum most of the time even 9 hours and yes im getting stronger every gym session and my nutrition is also on point. Greetings from Holland

I guess I'm kinda of guilty of this myself but usually on Upper body movements I let's my form go a little mostly because I'm doing Calisthenic based movements the only movement I'm kinda Trying to be a "Technique Cyborg " on is the good morning but probably I'm not that good at it as I think

I love the thumbnail on this vid. It looks like you are singing.

I’ve never really took RP seriously on the training side. They don’t have many videos of dudes that are juiced to the gills and I’ve never really understood what Mike was talking about. I guess there’s some funny, awkward jokes on there but I always feel like I’m doing something wrong after I watch his videos. I think people that train seriously are more intuitive with their training than they think they are. BB makes solid, digestible and most importantly, relatable videos. 🤙🏼

video cutoff suddenly?

I don't get the hate. RP is all about mastering good technique first then progressively overloading. Sound advice. 🤷‍♂️

End of the day if all you ever did was half reps with massive weight but it worked and you had masses of muscle what does I matter. I think some people replace proper balls out blood and guts effort with cyborg form because they don't actually have what it takes to grit their teeth and hurt.

Jason Blaha pool story angle

I wish you recorded your 350, be cool to see!

Unrelated to the topic but curious to know the reason for not taking a week off until you’re not sick anymore?

Most people need to hear get stronger first. Then once you’re stronger you can worry about getting more out of less weight.

Nice seeing the community weigh in meaningfully rather than just doing the classic "youtube drama" dog pile

Way I see it is STIMULUS is all about X multiplied by Y. X is the weight, Y is what you do with it. If you lean too heavily on one at the expense of the other then the outcome of the equation is a mediocre stimulus

Training technique is easily confused. Beginners should be consistent when externally perceived. Mirrors help. Learn a new move, let’s say smith machine hack squat look at your first 10 reps compare them to reps 1000-1010 in a few months. It becomes more consistent. For intermediate, for a known move Once you can do proper technique in your sleep, you can learn to train harder and harder. Big ramy in your head yelling one more, a few times, or your actual coach. The advanced part is where “technique” is relevant. You have to move your body, your biomechanics, so your target muscle is the one that approaches your RIR. Like when you’re doing a certain bicep move, your forearm might fail and your bicep is 10 rir. If you’re advanced you need to change your various angles and joints so your bicep is the thing that reaches your target rir, not the forearm. This can’t happen in beginners, they don’t know the move well enough. This can’t happen in intermediates, they don’t have the neurotransmitters in their nervous system/psychological arousal to train hard enough. This can only happen in advanced people, who can do the move in their sleep and train extremely hard in their sleep, where it’s not a skill they’re adapting. I don’t think this nuance of advanced technique is talked about enough. Like it takes 2000 vectors of force to take a sip of a glass of water it’s hard. And our species can’t communicate the bio mechanical data to cue it. Advanced technique is a skill that takes like 10 years to gain competency in. The alternative is GVS’s good enough technique in the intermediate phase where basically everything works. In 10 years and he’s not making noticeable progress, he might change his tune. That being said I don’t think it’s appropriate for the message of technique cyborg to imply that’s for the advanced or even intermediate athletes. It’s just not appropriate. Your 40 year old stay at home beginner mom needs to hear the cyborg message because her muscles are firing strangely. Beginners have antagonistic muscles contracting simultaneously it’s like a newborn giraffe, consistency is literally hard

I find exercise scientists overly complicate training when getting jacked is for the most part, very simple.

The real information we want is the ratio of basement floods to airpod's falling out! 😅

I suspect that the RP emphasis on technique is perhaps a bit selfish. Their app's algo that controls the progression scheme needs enough good technique and consistency such that the progression provides value. No point in driving you ultra hard on the progression side if your technique can't keep up. Then, they just brand it "Team Full ROM" etc to get everyone on board. Perhaps they have to finish selling their shirts before they allow more "Team Lengthened Partials" stuff to creep in. I also see that their main-stream content is a bit blander, more 'condensed' for consumption. Looking at the the off-the-cuff content like Jared Feather's training really lets you the nuance as it applies to specific lifters rather than broad generalizations. I think the crux of it is whether or not your reps' technique shifts slightly as you hit failure... I don't think it's a big deal as long as you're controlling things. Cheat reps is another glaring omission when you oversimplify technique. I think momentum can be used with control and (dare I say it...) good technique. I have some lifts in my program that are easier to cheat very slightly on, and others that are really strict. I like them for different reasons. Balancing training parameters and keeping my ego in check helps me limit the injuries. Like with barbell and dumbbell lifts, there is a skill component to advanced techniques. If you're going to be a knucklehead with them, then...yeah, you might see the downsides. Ultimately, I don't think it's a big deal. You see all kinds of weird things in the public gyms ranging from extreme ego lifting to DYEL tier robots with 20RIR. Somewhere between the two is something that works well, and...as my personal experience shows, the range for what works is pretty broad. Just pick something reasonably aligned with your goals and get better at that. Adjust over time. 💪

Yo do a review of Alpha Progression app that House of Hypertrophy talks about.

Slightly disingenuous of GVS to only use footage of smaller guys to make his point. Look up Shimmy Hacker, Dirk Emmerich & Jay Vincent (to name a few). They all train with *VERY* controlled technique & modest weight & have s-tier *natural physiques (*supposedly). There is more than one way to skin a cat when it comes to building muscle.

The answer is somewhere between Ricky Boogs and Dr Mike

Saw him in the elevator at the Arnold, nothing against the guy but didn’t feel the need to man fan

Resistance training is just like any other art form of self expression. People show negative or positive qualities of their personality based on how they train…

I am sure you made some excellent points here, unfortunately the only thing I could hear was that someone uses super strict technique and does it really well

Yet another controversy where the correct answer lies in that grey area in the middle. Like always... But hurray for content for all of us 😂

this "coming from someone like u who uses mostly machine and just focusing on hypertrophy to that extend who stripped the bar by half just to be able to squat properly for squat" says A LOT ! .. it shows what's the difference between getting more out of less weight , and focusing on muscle tension and ACTUAL SFR and using machines and cables ... and this "Ego lifting" for the sake of being called a part of "teamRoM"

“To move the least amount of weight possible”, but to make it the hardest possible : that’s exactly the spirit of well-understood bodybuilding.

👍👍👍

The Cyborg Technique community got a hold of your camera and proceeded to stop you from roasting them any further, hence the weird cut

i quite often see people who curl 10 lbs with the 10 second tempo, all the way from bottom to the top and stop at 12 reps because 8 - 12 reps is the hypertrophy range. i feel like egolifting is better than doing this shit.

Be GymBro Cyborg Insted)

Do you train at all when sick?

Your basement can't catch a break wth 😭

Heads up! Flood incoming! 🎉

There is always a happy middle ground... .mike gone too far

If im pushing a set of hack squats to failure and i stop the set because i am no longer able to do a set with a 7 sec eccentric and a 5 second pause thats just dumb. You wont ever progress that way because the set is waaaayyyy tooooo long and your just holding yourself back so much and limiting actual good stimulus in my opinion. Control the eccentric and explode on the concentric and progress over time and you will get big.

It's so sad seeing people who disagree with the technique cyborg thing (which is obviously over exagerrated and stupid) decide to say that everything ever said by RP is garbage. It's ridiculous and y'all are not impressing anyone by being absolutist contrarians

I’ve seen too many jacked but weak natties on this platform to think that getting strong is simply a matter of getting bigger tbh

Wait so is M*ke making fun of people who lift with good technique? I don't watch the guy, nor will i ever give my views to a roider, so idk what this series of his is.

I don't even know what the debate is about, in almost any case what is going to determine effectiveness in a certain set is getting closer to failure or failure. Your muscles have no way of knowing how much weight you move, they only care about stimulation, and this has a thousand ways to achieve it, good, bad or decent technique, if you give it enough effort you will see results in more or less time; Now are you egocentric for having strict technique? I don't understand it, just because x person doesn't move x amount, or because he doesn't already have a huge amount of muscle, is what he's doing already inferior? Not long ago I saw a GVS video that said that one of the pillars of hypertrophy was Technique, which I agree, FOR ME, maintaining control during the set is part of good technique until you reach failure or closer, and now just by prioritizing it "you are a cyborg" who is egocentric and who will remain "small" in comparison to another person who does not do that; I don't think Geofrey has given the complete nuances, but, it is his opinion and I respect it, I just hope it is not confusing for people who are beginners and have no idea what they are talking about

dude you keep getting sick. think you’re training too hard haha

why tf are you making vids whilst driving.

The science bros just needlessly overcomplicate the whole process of bodybuilding.. Eat More + Lift heavy = build muscle. We don't need to know about the Myonuclei of the muscle fibers and how they react to mechanical stress.. "Just use normal people words and I'll know what you're talking about" - Ricky (Trailer Park Boys)

I dont Like Mike ... I think He is a little Bit Stuck in His own science world...Mike mentzer was a Guy ahead His time ....Mike makes simple Things complicated Mike mentzer makes complex Things simple