'The Folded 4 Train' - 1991 Union Square Derailment

'The Folded 4 Train' - 1991 Union Square Derailment | Tales From the NYC Subway

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2 жыл бұрын

Welcome to the first of many videos in my new 'Tales From the Subway' series. To start off, I'm gonna be talking about the Union Square Derailment of 1991.
Credit to The New York Times for the Thumbnail Photo.
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Пікірлер: 402

@adorabirb1677 2 жыл бұрын

If your train overshoots the station, you know it's time for you to get off xD

@historyisthebestmyfans2094 2 жыл бұрын

Or moving crazy fast

@GABRIELADAWSON 2 жыл бұрын

No you mean it’s Time to PULL THE EMERGENCY BRAKE!!!!!.

@historyisthebestmyfans2094 2 жыл бұрын

@@GABRIELADAWSON That too

@zaiauntraylor8098 2 жыл бұрын

@@historyisthebestmyfans2094 h er is t

@warrencorbin Жыл бұрын

@suptrto 2 жыл бұрын

I responded to this incident, it was an insane night and days to follow. Wood timbers were placed underground just to support the subway tunnel envelope.

@MysticTransit 2 жыл бұрын

Wow. Thanks for your service. That's wild.

@jaimepimentel1502 2 жыл бұрын

Yes I agree.

@historyisthebestmyfans2094 6 ай бұрын

You know where the location was by google maps?

@karywilliams7399 2 жыл бұрын

Definitely a series on NYC transit incidents is a must! The Times Square wreck, Malbone Street wreck, Williamsburg Bridge wreck, even those incidents with foreign objects touching the 3rd rail causing fires at nearby stations (which may or may not be able to fit in one video). This was a STELLAR breakdown!

@MysticTransit 2 жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed this video, and I look forward to making more of these in the future. I'm not sure if I can do a video on things that caused Third-Rail fires, but I definitely can make videos like the 'Suicide Curve' at 110 St on the Ninth Avenue El, or the Times Square Wreck.

@jordimendoza9930 2 жыл бұрын

@@MysticTransit bruhhhhhh

@mariekatherine5238 2 жыл бұрын

Remember the conductor who beheaded himself?

@ethandominicci Жыл бұрын

@@MysticTransit this is actually pretty good its true to the point that my dad heard about this and he was born in 66 so he was still young in 1991

@ethandominicci Жыл бұрын

but he is 56 or 57 now and he is still alive

@glenntaylor1834 2 жыл бұрын

I remembered this derailment. I lived along the 4 train ROW at Mt. Eden. "Fatal Four" was the nickname some teens used to describe the 4 train after this derailment.

@MysticTransit 2 жыл бұрын

Wow, interesting name for it.

@joestrike8537 2 жыл бұрын

I lived just off Union Square at the time. The middle of that night I was briefly awakened by the sound of sirens, most likely from ambulances at the accident scene. I fell right back to sleep and didn't learn about the disaster until the following morning.

@patrickfraleyjr2819 Жыл бұрын

I probably would have woken up to the sirens if I lived there at the time. It was a tragic accident for sure.

@petelawrence9193 2 жыл бұрын

I was there as a crane operator for MTA transit .I saw the train as it came to test. Looked like a plane crash in a cave. I was surprised with all the damage we had the trains running in 2 weeks time.

@fallback8314 2 жыл бұрын

i can't imagine how much a crane operator for mta makes

@alidycepaisley3829 2 жыл бұрын

Do you mean you had eyes on the train as the accident occurred or that you saw the train as it was once the accident had completed?

@petelawrence9193 2 жыл бұрын

I wasn't there at the time of the accident, but within hours after

@pinto1221 10 ай бұрын

I was there as a crane operator for MTA transit .I saw the train as it came to test. Looked like a plane crash in a cave. I was surprised with all the damage we had the trains running in 2 weeks time

@Dell-ol6hb Жыл бұрын

The road above dipping by half an inch as a result of the crash is frightening, that really shows you just how powerful that crash must’ve been

@pinto1221 10 ай бұрын

Thank you very much for posting this. The reporting and description of the 1991 incident was very well reported. The announcer here spoke eloquently and provided all of the sequential facts of the incident. Even though I no longer live in New York I remember this when I was in high school and it was all over the news and I was amazed to see how mangled those trains were as a result of the impact of that accident. I often wonder why that motorman was permitted to operate a train considering he was in questionable condition? If you are operating Transit equipment you really should be tested and checked before you operate. Safety is paramount!

@historyisthebestmyfans2094 10 ай бұрын

The Lexington Ave line from 42 St - Bowling Green is literally about 10-15 feet below street level. The 1904 tunnels were test experiment tunnels that have thin roofs above directly on street level. 14 St Union Square tunnel on 456 are literally right below the street.

@pinto1221 10 ай бұрын

@@historyisthebestmyfans2094 The Lexington Ave line from 42 St - Bowling Green is literally about 10-15 feet below street level. The 1904 tunnels were test experiment tunnels that have thin roofs above directly on street level. 14 St Union Square tunnel on 456 are literally right below the street

@justcomments335 2 жыл бұрын

A very good and sensitive video. I hope to see more "Tales from the Subway", starting maybe with the Times Square derailment as you mentioned, or perhaps the 1995 Williamsburg Bridge crash.

@jimwilliams6747 2 жыл бұрын

Ok understand, the dispatcher should have done his job and NOT let the operator sign in. The operator could have called out sick. The conductor should have pulled the emergency cord after the first station overrun and taken the train out of service. The conductor also should have walked up to the operator and asked him what's wrong? Both of their jobs are at stake. If the conductor takes proper action, the train doesn't continue in passenger service.

@blue9multimediagroup 2 жыл бұрын

They weren't trying not to delay service.

@andyrob3259 2 жыл бұрын

@@blue9multimediagroup and instead delayed the services for two weeks………great call.

@stevenbiffoni783 2 жыл бұрын

This accident would never have happened if the dispatcher had sent the motorman home. A typical example of not wanting to rock the boat so a fellow transit worker wouldn't get in trouble. The people who were killed and injured paid a big price.

@jordimendoza9930 2 жыл бұрын

The 1918 crash as well?

@chrisdiss2040 2 жыл бұрын

He was tired

@dananderson1708 2 жыл бұрын

Tales from the Subway seems like a GREAT idea. Similar to another famous series TALES FROM THE TUBE, NYC would now get its own TALES series. Way to go!

@paulmckinney6163 2 жыл бұрын

My neighbor perished in this accident. Her young son was devastated 😢

@pbatommy 2 жыл бұрын

I had gotten a phone call that morning from a motor instructor (now TSS) friend of mine telling me what happened. When I reported to the Dyre Avenue terminal, my conductor and I were told all crews will be under intense scrutiny because of this. We ended up doing 6 shuttles to E. 180th Street that day. That incident changed EVERYTHING at TA, and made random drug testing federal law for all railroad and transit employees.

@MysticTransit 2 жыл бұрын

Wow. This accident, along with the one in 1995 really changed a lot.

@ephraimcampos5232 2 жыл бұрын

Fucked it up for all the bud smokers

@OneAdam12Adam 2 жыл бұрын

@@ephraimcampos5232 Yeah. Nothing says safety like a stoner or wake-and-baker running a subway train! 😂😂😆

@ephraimcampos5232 2 жыл бұрын

@@OneAdam12Adam everything would be in slow motion lol less B.I.E. Or signal flash

@AEMoreira81 Жыл бұрын

As is often said...those rules are written in blood. In this case, they're in the blood of the five customers who died and the motorman of that J train who died. I wonder if the supervisor was also fired. Ray had shown up in tennis shoes, instead of rubberized boots, in addition to being drunk. While off-duty, Steven Darden could have also pulled the brake (he was riding the train back home and was still on board when disaster finally hit).

@josephnyy86 2 жыл бұрын

You should do an episode based on the March 2020 fire at CPN - 110th Street on the 2 train. I always find it very sad and scary as hell. Imagine leaving work at 3am in Manhattan very tired, getting on a Bronx bound 2 train and dozing off then suddenly the train is on fire and your life's in danger

@spectator7186 2 жыл бұрын

Imagine being the train operator who went to work and didn’t make it home to his wife and kids.

@josephnyy86 2 жыл бұрын

@@spectator7186 Its fucking devastating

@spectator7186 2 жыл бұрын

@@josephnyy86 I work for transit (Train Operator) I knew him, a very good man. It’s a sad situation. Hopefully the man who purposely started the fire is held accountable.

@jetfan925 2 жыл бұрын

Heck, this is right at the beginning of the pandemic.

@Bronxbornking89 2 жыл бұрын

Yes

@burbank 2 жыл бұрын

@pinto1221 10 ай бұрын

@Will_Bx_NYC_718 2 жыл бұрын

Thanx for the video bruh. I was about 11 years old when this situation happened. It was a horrible story and situation. I now work for the NYC subway system, and this incident is still talked about to this day is training classes. This guy single handedly changed the railroad of the NYC subway system.

@MysticTransit 2 жыл бұрын

Singlehandedly brought us the timer signals.

@enve56ers 2 жыл бұрын

How can I apply

@GoldenOne131 2 жыл бұрын

Your voice kills it you made the video way more eerie then the other youtubers who talked about train wrecks and I love it

@MysticTransit 2 жыл бұрын

lol, I tried to make it more interesting by using a deeper voice to demonstrate the seriousness of this wreck. That's also the reason why I didn't add music to the video, I felt like it would kill the vibe.

@paulkelly8533 2 жыл бұрын

@@MysticTransit A no-nonsese, well detailed, straight forward narration. Excellent!

@brianhochberg6957 2 жыл бұрын

I remember this derailment in the news very well. Just glad I wasn't there to witness it. I think this would be a great series, and would like to see more of them.

@GillesCasanova1804 2 жыл бұрын

I appreciate this video man, it brought me back to my childhood. I remember this incident, many people get a piece of NYC through the story's which are told by others. Good narrating skills, hope to see you doing it on a huge network soon Peace ✌

@rayramos8435 2 жыл бұрын

I was in prison with the train driver and some of the younger cons would mess with him out on the yard by screaming the line from "Ghost" : "Get off my train!" If you ever see the movie the ghost that screams at Patrick Swayze looks just like the driver of the train. Life is truly strange sometimes...

@kcorn12kc 2 жыл бұрын

Like how he is well informed and give in depth details of what actually happened,also giving video footage 👍

@brandonpurple165 2 жыл бұрын

My Dad was one of the Officers that Arrested him at his Home.

@kangarojack3814 Жыл бұрын

My dad too what a small world

@donpee5204 2 жыл бұрын

Condolences to those lost during this incident 🙏🏽 Young Brother there is more to this story than you will ever know !!! Trust & Believe . Just remember you can't judge a book by it's cover.

@OneAdam12Adam 2 жыл бұрын

NO. YOU CAN'T JUST LEAVE A COMMENT LIKE THAT WITHOUT DETAILS. YOU'RE REALLY SUSPECT NOW.

@latrelljames2515 2 жыл бұрын

Yes… please make more. Very interesting.

@julieacevedo1818 2 жыл бұрын

I'm so glad this popped up on my feed! Thank you for sharing this story and more. I look forward to future stories! Great job!

@MysticTransit 2 жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

@nah_144 2 жыл бұрын

This was a great video and you should definitely continue this series. Maybe you could talk about the 1984 NYC subway shooting.

@MysticTransit 2 жыл бұрын

Ooh, I've never heard of that one. I'm glad you enjoyed the video though.

@josephbell2160 2 жыл бұрын

@@MysticTransit He's referring to the Bernard Goetz 1984 subway shooting. Several African American males approached him with the intent of robbery. He takes out his gun and shoots them all. He shot one of them multiple times and made the famous quote of "You don't look so good, here's another." Remember it as if it were yesterday

@michaelmarino7391 2 жыл бұрын

Robert Ray was killed when he was struck by a car while crossing Grand Concourse on May 28, 2015 at 8:45 PM

@holland9199 2 жыл бұрын

Yes 👍 this is very good “Tails of the New Yorkers City Trains” this is also very educational and you have the voice for it🙂the dangers of elections and trying to jump over tracks and stories of the employees, very good very good looking forward to it

@blackpanda7298 2 жыл бұрын

yes! please keep making these videos.. i watch a lot of train derailment videos just to see mistakes people make during this tragic events.

@monica012077 2 жыл бұрын

Great video! I enjoyed you covering this accident in detail since I was only 14 when it happened. I always assumed it was drugs. Definitely make this a series, I love subway stories. 😅

@joes2085 2 жыл бұрын

Tales from the Subway would be great. Never knew the detail of the street subsiding 1/2"

@BrightonRailFan 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks man since I was 1 I was in love with the MTA I knew that the crash happened but I did not know why so thank you for telling.

@losh330 2 жыл бұрын

Great video. Can't wait for more tales from the subway!

@jameslithetaiwanesephotogr3986 2 жыл бұрын

Excellent detailed history video. I was 13 at the time of the accident. I will be 44 on 04/15/2022. The R62 cars will be replaced by R262 cars in 2024-2025

@Dfnormile 2 жыл бұрын

This is a thorough straight forward video. Good job man. Definitely continue the series. Subscribing.

@A239TheFireballThrower Жыл бұрын

I think this story reminds me of the knowing Subway hell scene

@TheTimeForChange44 2 жыл бұрын

I remembered that! Thank you for the reminder! Please proceed (with caution and safety) with the new series!

@mang0.0 2 жыл бұрын

Wow, this was amazing. You need to make this a series!!

@MysticTransit 2 жыл бұрын

Oh, I definitely will!

@OneAdam12Adam 2 жыл бұрын

Love New Yorkers who share interesting things about the City.

@landocalrisian2014 Жыл бұрын

Definitely enjoyed this telling. Thank you!

@subwaywiz445 Жыл бұрын

I did an subway-themed escape room for my birthday a few years ago, and it said something about this accident. Thank you for explaining more about it

@mdeborah827 2 жыл бұрын

It was a different city then. Around that time, on New Year's at strike of mirnight, the MTA raised the fare with NOOOO announcement whatsoever.

@marlabrunker738 2 жыл бұрын

St Vincent's was still open too. If it happened today, all 116 casualties would be flooding Bellevue's emergency department.

@patagard8253 2 жыл бұрын

I remember this incident... Now, I know the details. Truly sad... thanks for sharing!

@moettaswanzon8346 2 жыл бұрын

O my god this is my first time hearing about this wow damn I’m shock.thanks for the video my condolences goes out to all them people 🙏🏿🙏🏿🙏🏿🙏🏿

@GoodnightIrieMon 2 жыл бұрын

You have to do one on the Malbone St. wreck. It was so infamous that the city changed the street name from Malbone to Empire.

@MysticTransit 2 жыл бұрын

Eventually, I will.

@Railoffroader2 2 жыл бұрын

Prospect Park

@blue9multimediagroup 2 жыл бұрын

@@Railoffroader2 that's the station after the curve. The street that crosses the tunnel at the Portal was renamed from Malbone St to Empire Blvd.

@Railoffroader2 2 жыл бұрын

@@blue9multimediagroup I was merely mentioning what current station is close to the wreck location.

@ericbrown7788 2 жыл бұрын

Nice video.. an actually the worse Train crash was the 1918 Malbone street wreck..

@paddy7812 2 жыл бұрын

I remember this incident. Great video! Definitely make a series.

@MysticTransit 2 жыл бұрын

Will do!

@garrettshore 2 жыл бұрын

definatley make this series. you should do an episode on the 1918 Malbone street wreck. and maybe an episode on Bernie Goetz too.

@MysticTransit 2 жыл бұрын

I'll definitely do the 1918 Wreck, however, not soon. The next video is the 1995 Williamsburg Bridge Collision (yeah, another video in the 90's - it's very interesting though). Never heard of Bernie Goetz though, I'm going to have to research that a bit and see if it's suitable for a video.

@floydnixon6922 2 ай бұрын

I have a friend who use to work for transit he was working the 5 way radio that day. I saw the scene in person.

@eddieq2189 2 жыл бұрын

I really liked and enjoyed your video Ive always wanted to find out details of that tragic crash that resulted in a few deaths and many injured u explained it extremely well moment by moment leading to the crash and what followed after that I hope u put out the details about the 1929 times Square crash ive always wanted to know details about that one as well keep it up you were great im a die hard subway rider since I was 2 yrs old still use the subway today 🙂👍

@MysticTransit 2 жыл бұрын

I'm glad you enjoyed the video! I definitely will be creating a video for the 1929 Crash, however, it is not the next video. The next video in this series will be on the 1995 Williamsburg Bridge Collision.

@mondonproductions4088 Жыл бұрын

enjoyed your tale about the #4 derailment. I would have liked if you were at the 14th street station and not 138, it would have made the story better.. Also like to see video of the pocket track and the diamond crossover.. Great job sort and to the point.. I am a professional filmaker, hope the crituque did not insult you

@jendel42750 2 жыл бұрын

Excellent video! You might want to try looking up some of the stories from the books available at the New York Transit Museum.

@murdelabop 2 жыл бұрын

Definitely more tales from the subway!

@rudyjr 2 жыл бұрын

RIP uncle Jimmy (Jimmy Robles) Very sad what happened. Karma played its course. The train operator was hit by a car walking down the street by a drunk driver.

@tanishaglasgow8098 Жыл бұрын

Oh man that sucks to hear.

@risksrewardsrelics51 9 ай бұрын

He wasn’t killed, but he was seriously injured. Hit and run. He was drunk again crossing the street.

@henrysantos121 Жыл бұрын

What an amazing videos back in the day, Very well done,

@k.m.parekh4697 2 жыл бұрын

Very interesting...i enjoyed it. Keep up the good work...

@Trainguy198 2 жыл бұрын

HOLY SHIT- the editing is fire 🔥 !

@MysticTransit 2 жыл бұрын

Glad you think so! I really put a lot of time and effort into this video.

@Trainguy198 2 жыл бұрын

I can see that! Keep up the Great work!

@mariekatherine5238 Ай бұрын

I remember this very well. Fortunately, wasn’t there, but when the conductor’s condition became known, I made it a fast rule to always get off any train that overruns or driving seems erratic. Better late than injured or deceased.

@Monkeymeep 2 жыл бұрын

All New Yorkers. Watch this video and cherish your family and the life you live. Because one day you may be a victim of this kind of disaster.

@discounicorn31 2 жыл бұрын

the name “the folded 4 train” had me giggling thinking it got its ass beat 💀💀

@appsunder-ground2524 3 күн бұрын

I'm from New York City and I used to take the 4 train all the time but in 1991 I was still a kid so I never knew about this living in Jersey at the time so this was really interesting and you have a good voice for it so I'm going to subscribe to you thanks man for that for the story

@dashwinterson8855 2 жыл бұрын

great piece man!

@MysticTransit 2 жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed the video!

@joelfeuer619 2 жыл бұрын

I remember the morning rush was a mess, I was in midtown and didn't know anything had occurred. Traffic was a mess, obviously no subway service on the lines, all the while I had no idea anything occurred...

@michaelmorales1475 2 жыл бұрын

Can't wait for more Video's from this Series.

@MysticTransit 2 жыл бұрын

Glad you are excited to see future videos in this series!

@keithdriscoll6760 2 жыл бұрын

Great video! I ride the 4 train all the time and didn't know this story.

@MysticTransit 2 жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

@peace1976 2 жыл бұрын

I'd like to see a series about tales from the subway. I've heard about this story before but not in such detail. Thanks

@patrickculhane1269 2 жыл бұрын

Good job Ray👏👏 You dope

@randolphtwells1360 2 жыл бұрын

Mystic, If his blood alcohol has to be 0.10 at the New York State in 1991, the hypothesis is that the engineer of the 4 train has doubled the legal limit which it is leading to a DWI charge and counts of murder for leaving the station. [6:00]

@talamuffy3094 2 жыл бұрын

This is chilling

@JoseNunez-hh1yr 2 жыл бұрын

Very good. Follow some of you chroniclers. I'm a retired NYC subway conductor(1983-2013), and TWU rep(1999-2001), any questions you may have, let me know. My fave equipment was the R-38(RIP)

@ethandominicci Жыл бұрын

welp its bout to be the 31st anniversary of that crash

@wholelottabluethoughtz Жыл бұрын

RIP

@vsizzle 2 жыл бұрын

Love the channel, keep it up. You should do the williamsburg bridge

@MysticTransit 2 жыл бұрын

Definitely will! That's actually the next video in this series.

@MIXPRO68 2 жыл бұрын

YES PLEASE MAKE MORE VIDEOS ABOUT TALES OF THE SUBWAYS

@jaimepimentel1502 2 жыл бұрын

Yes the same derailment, where 23 responders including one Officer Moira Smith(RIP), was taken to Hospital for smoke inhalation.

@johndymowski8939 2 жыл бұрын

I just got off the 6 train 3 minutes before the this incident took place!!

@josephpalau897 2 жыл бұрын

Great video!!!

@jordansmacahoe350 2 жыл бұрын

I was reading an old daredevil comic and the first page was talking about New York tragedies this was one of them.. so sad

@andrewjones6693 2 жыл бұрын

Video was excellently done! Instead of showing random stock and unrelated content during the narration, you showed relevant footage (shot by you?) of similar trains and locations. Five Stars: ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ 🙂

@MysticTransit 2 жыл бұрын

Yes, all of the footage in this video was shot by me. The pictures are from various sources (found throughout the video). I tried to put in all of the rolling stock that was similar to the ones involved in the crash, and not just some random, newer train.

@samuelrivera3557 8 ай бұрын

Great informative story. Looking foto more subway stories.

@dameonjones3102 2 жыл бұрын

Man you did a great job with this story and video please do more.

@MysticTransit 2 жыл бұрын

I'm glad you think so! Already working on the next video in this series!

@dameonjones3102 2 жыл бұрын

@@MysticTransit 💯💯💙💢💥👉🙏💪

@andyischillin6724 Жыл бұрын

I am from the u.k (London) I would love to see anything about your subway…stations..booking halls & even views from the streets of entrances.

@bryantrivera1852 2 жыл бұрын

What you can do is make a series from the first accident to the latest one like this one.

@BrooklynBound4 2 жыл бұрын

I was a kid when this happened, I remember it was a mess.

@tanishaglasgow8098 Жыл бұрын

Yes that was a hot mess

@sebastiangarcia4213 Жыл бұрын

This is actually the most serious accident happen like I never seen a train accident worse than others.

@SubwaySounds 2 жыл бұрын

I really enjoyed it please do tales from the subway.

@AMT1345 2 жыл бұрын

3:06 reminds me of the “knowing” train crash

@janettejones5264 Жыл бұрын

Omg I take subways at union sq all the time since 2016 when I visit nyc every month never knew this happened!!

@kedrinraymond5261 2 жыл бұрын

I’m a retired bus MABSTOA bus operator and the Union Square Derailment was a terrible accident

@gaylemurrain966 2 жыл бұрын

God!! I remembered this taking place..

@TheLiquidheat2643 2 жыл бұрын

My uncle died on this train. RIP Jimmy Robles

@kidfrombrooklyn66 2 жыл бұрын

I believe there was a derailment on a Bronx bound D train leaving Columbus Circle during Afternoon Drive Home (an idiot pulled the emergency stop cord & brakes on one car locked up) causing major damage to train & tunnel + the platform was so full, people were falling on the tracks & having body parts cut off. Do you have this (somewhere in the mid 70's) ?

@magicj2212 2 жыл бұрын

Please make more of these videos!

@russellmancillas4464 2 жыл бұрын

Very interesting, yes make series

@daviddixoniii5460 2 жыл бұрын

I remember this incident big time! I was like a Junior in High School just before my Senior Year. I had a job in Midtown on 23rd Street and Park Ave. The Lexington Ave line was shut down for awhile. I had to take the 7th Ave line instead and walk across, which was a little inconvenience because this was before the Metro Card came out, so there was no free transfer between Subway and Bus. This dude was HIGH as a Kite!! SMDH 🤦‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤬

@blakemcnamara9105 Жыл бұрын

If I was on a train that kept overshooting stations and going ridiculously fast, I would've pulled the emergency break.

@canimaStyle 2 жыл бұрын

I remember this on the news

@djfrassmad843 10 ай бұрын

I’m so glad to hear you’re having such 😢😊

@nicolasroque163 2 жыл бұрын

That day that happend i was going to the beach with my family n it was all over the tv i remember it very well

@otnielbatista6192 Жыл бұрын

Welcome to High Speed Subway

@gregodessite 2 жыл бұрын

I remember on 10.15.1992 - this accident was shown in news. That time I just came in USA, and my English was poor.

@bennythepenny5831 2 жыл бұрын

Please do a video about the lost 76th Street Station. It is an extension of the IND Fulton Street Line, and its existence has been debated by rail fans for years.