"i like those fun ways of getting magic", proceeds to make magical powers only be given to people with extreme emotional baggage and trauma so severe it literally broke them. Fun, you said ? FUN ???? i mean fun for us, but still....

Regarding the idea they mentioned in passing of “magic gained by being born during a particular stellar alignment,” that inspires an entertaining idea of a world in which the nobility have highly-paid court astronomers whose job it is to calculate the dates when these stars will align, and then use that research to set dates for massive orgies or amoral breeding programs to guarantee as many magically gifted heirs as possible.

Brandons entire point is, I think, summed up as follows: It is vital that you build a rational economy with your magic system. No matter how economics illiterate your reader might be, they will intuitively distrust a poorly constructed, or non-existent magical economy. Even with magic, there is no free lunch.

I could listen to Brandon talk for days. Which is great for me because he LOVES talking.

"Empire expanding and conquering other people's magic systems." Yeah now I finally know what type of villain Brandon would be!

"What has t happen in order for a magic system to be believable?" Two words: Internal consistency. It has to fit the tone and setting. It also needs to follow it's own rules. These rules don't need to be explained to the reader - see soft magic systems - but if it's established that magic can't do something, then it can't do that thing without some explanation or reaction of confusion/surprise from the characters.

Just from the very first few minutes: "[Genetic magic] has Implications, capital I". I love how this so accurately reflects Brandon's writing; all the important (usually magic) things are just regular words that are capitalised (Diagram, Shards (Stormlight cool-swords or gods), Push or Pull (Mistborn), etc.)

Time stamps for different discussion topics in the video (for my own reference mostly, when rewatching it's sometimes nice to be able to jump to a specific part): 0:00 When you think of non-genetic magic systems, what comes to mind? 6:58 What has to happen for a magic system to be believable, and how is it different for a non-genetic magic system? 14:56 Is there anything different about it not being genetic based when you're building the system to make it believable? 20:19 Interesting non-genetic magic systems 28:13 What is your soapbox issue/pet peeve about fantasy and magic systems? 35:17 Anything not asked that they want to talk about (Brandon talks about a non-genetic magic system he outlined) 36:35 Interesting worldbuilding & bland character is usually a bad story, reverse is usually still a pretty good story. Discussion of this idea. 41:47 Where do you prefer to start a project (magic system, story, etc.)? 44:20 For Brandon: the story/magic you outlined, is it Cosmere? (some discussion about what makes a thing Cosmere and how some things don't fit) 49:29 How does Mistborn magic system relate to topic of this panel? 52:11 Difference between something being inborn/part of you vs. inheriting from someone, genetics? (work in progress)

An approach I've always liked is magic as transhumanism. Not just something you use but something that actively shapes you as you use it.

"The fate of the world rests on your shoulders, good luck sunshine!" Is so much better of a chosen one setup than "Prophecy told us you were destined to save the world"

I just gonna hold forever in my heart the fact that Marie Brennan once informally collaborated with me on a homebrew rule for an RPG game. Hahahaha

I don't believe for a second that Brandon wrote his own name tag. I've seen him write on the white board on this very channel

Robert Jordan’s sword forms stuff was a way to describe what was happening without actually describing the individual sword strokes. The names of the forms were all intentionally evocative in order to paint a picture. Obviously it didn’t work for everyone, seeing as they didn’t like it, but I always found it very effectively set the tone of the fights.

I really relate to their points about magic from D&D or games, because I deal with that one personally when I write stuff for my games. When I write a campaign or setting in D&D, I have to go down this rabbit hole of figuring out how magic affects the rest of the world, because the existence of magic means all the other ordinary stuff we take for granted would also be different. A castle wouldn't just have walls, it'd have forcefields and anti-scrying wards and magic proximity alarms, which really complicates building an interactive story where I'm not in control of what the players do, but it still has to be believable and still has to be fun.

Brandon: “I outline a lot of books I don’t get to write.” Brandon a few months later: “So I already wrote that book. And 3 others.”

This first 3 minutes of the talk immediately remind me of Mashle: Of Muscles and Magic and how its setting is literally a post-genocide world where all non-magic born were slaughtered by the state to “purify” the magical population. It’s all kinds of fucked up and having the genetic component of magic play an integral and frightening part of your narrative can be extremely captivating when actually addressed properly.

I think a really cool example of media exploring these two things is the manga Witch Hat Atelier, where the premise kinda is that magic is thought to be genetic by most of the people in the world, but the main character discovers that anyone with the right tools can do it, and it goes on from there. I think that the implications of it as it explores this kinda contrast between the ethics of those who were born being taught magic between those that aren't is just really fun to read.

"It will be fun he said it will be good he said" Hemalurgy.

34:51 This is so strange to me because I actually really liked the way sword fighting was done in WOT and think it's one of the best ways to convey interesting imagery in a fight scene. The people actually fighting refer to those sword forms like 'boar rushes down the mountain' in the same way people in wrestling does a 'lariat' or the 'Boston crab' or something like that. The people fighting knows what it's called but they aren't thinking about the imagery of the word, it's simply what the move is called. However, for the people reading, it gives so much imagery and it allows the reader to fill in the blanks on how the swordfighter is moving with a short one-line thing for each movement to keep the fast pace of a fight scene. I think it was brilliant, especially if you want to show elegance and beauty in a swordfight.

I just wanted to drop in the observation that while, as mentioned, you can get inborn magic without it being inherited, due to the circumstances of your birth, you can also have inherited but not inborn magic - the magic item that's also a family heirloom, or the ability for individuals to pass on their powers. The overlap of inborn and inherited, obviously, is where genetic magic hangs out (though genetic engineering could shift that), and you can also have magic that's neither inborn nor inherited but acquired through study and ritual.

I will give Brandon at least $320.45 of suspension of disbelief. I'm in it for the long haul. I mean, you kinda have to be for the Cosmere since the magic system still has not been (and probably won't ever be) fully revealed in how it works. Is there a "Adonalsium Particle"? We may never know.

On Brandon talking about interesting world vs interesting characters. I think one of the most important ideas in storytelling is that the world can be interesting, so can the story, the magic, the lore, the cultures, but at the end of the day, characters are what we relate to, and we always perceive the world through their eyes. Even if you tell the most simple story about a rock bouncing down a hill, you can make people invested in that, but its because they're humanizing the rock and relating to its painful journey.

Tone affecting versimilitiude: i just realized this is what made me always like the atmosphere of games like Half-life or films like Akira. The gradation from the common to outlandish happenings is smooth and consistent, and most of the power is explained.

Tolkien did several things - Object-based magic like magic rings, species based magic - wizards & the shapeshifter (wizards are not 'human') & elves have magic (although it looks like that elves also seem to have a genetic component, not all elves can do magic). He also touched on hedge magic, magic for everyone in herbal potions etc.

It's interesting that now KZfaq is giving me videos on magic systems when I'm in the middle of crafting a system based on burning incense to affect the mind and body of those that can smell them. Among other systems in my story, like eating coal to breathe fire or imbedding gems into one's body so your soul can power the enchantments found within. Trying to make my magic systems more of a cultural thing (like what Marie mentioned at around the 26 minute mark) since the story isn't really about the magic itself but more on using it as a way to promote interaction with other characters. The video definitely reminded me of some things to keep in mind as I develop the magic in the story further.

@34:50 I never saw this style as bad or problematic from Jordan. I saw it as an interesting and artistic way to paint a picture of a fight scene, or other scene without having to give all the details. He actually packed a lot more information in with very little effort. Rand's walk in the palace was Cat Crosses the Courtyard. Right away, you know that this is a prideful, strait backed, head held high walk with a purposeful stride that takes nothing from how alert Rand is of his surroundings. And, Jordan told us none of that. He just gave it a metaphoric name that we could use to paint the picture in our own head. Move on to sward forms; He didn't have to tell us how anyone stood or stepped. He didn't have to tell us how the sword was held or swung. He transitioned from one metaphor to the next to give action to the scene without slowing down to add in details. To me, this is one of the things that Jordan did best in his writing.

Probably just a result of classes, but I’m enjoying working on a magic system built on a world that is essentially a giant computer, though before the concept of one would ever occur. The original goal was to create a certain experience (a lot of my ideas begin that way...), that of programming reality. It really digs down into the ritualistic side of magic, and the idea that wizarding is all about preparation. As I got further into it, those problems from implications started popping up. (Though implications can be trouble after the book is out, they’re great world building inspiration.) A magic system with this much potential freedom and so deeply rooted into the world could cause all kinds of havoc. So thinking more into it, magic is essentially hacking reality (unless someone is “born” with it and already has the magic precoded into their existence). The power hungry would seek to gain further access, which if found would create greater possibility of existence unraveling. Also a fun thing, this universe is all for sand box table top, so I can have all sorts of world ending story hooks just waiting to be sprung.

Brandon's idea at 35:50 is now in Secret Project 3.

I love how ironic it is that Brandon's name plate is the one that's written the nicest out of all of them!

My favorite kind of magic system is the kind that isn't explicitly stated to be "magic," something ever present throughout the world that influences people's daily lives. For example, bending in Avatar the Last Airbender. Unlike most magic systems, bending in Avatar is explicitly stated not to be magic despite it obviously being "magic." It behaves more like a martial art and that's how the writers intended for it to be. Taking inspiration from this; the magic system that I use in my writing behaves the same way. One obtains a magical ability unique to themselves based on their ultimate goal in life. Anyone could use magic, but not everyone does; the reason for this is because you need to be a specific type of person to use magic - the kind of person who would sacrifice themselves or more for their dreams to come true.

I loved that Brandon got them started on giving examples of non-genetic systems, and I wish all of them had spent more time on this topic. I think it's so useful when an author shares their knowledge of the genre with aspiring writers, and I think just the tips on what books to read, look for is probably more valid than the entirety of the arguments presented in this discussion, in no small part because a large portion of it didn't stay on the mainissue of genetic X non genetic magic systems...

I love that Brandon is always teaching.

35:30 "I've been... I just outlined" one of Brandon's secret novel almost slip-ups I think!

David Coe's explanation of how you can stretch and bend the rules of your laws of magic within your own novel immediately bring the Lord Ruler to mind in The Final Empire. His powers are fantastical and seemingly godlike, but I'll be damned if Sanderson doesn't do a helluva job restricting the powers to the rules of Allomancy and Feruchemy....and Min's budding understanding of those rules are what allow her to win the day. GG Sanderson!

When Brandon Sanderson talks about Runelords, a book I found on my own that I’d never heard of but got rid of because I didn’t know if I’d ever really read it, now I must find it again! I must read it!

"Harry Potter keeps coming up again and again" -the guy who keeps bringing up harry potter

I started supplementing my hard sci-fi with urban fantasy back in 2010 which tends to stick to a harder rule set in their magic systems and I really appreciate that. so I usually reference the magicians or the Dresden files over harry potter when discussing such things personally. It equals up to a different kind of escapism I guess because you have potter who gets whisked away into some secret world which allow him to distance himself from "Real world" problems while Dresden never really escapes and Coldwater's escapism is temporary. I'm a audiobook fan so I listened to elantris some years back and just finished The last empire a few days ago and now I'm in warbreaker figuring things out.

I love soft magic systems that are simultaneously bound by general rules and still can be symbolically heavy and preserve wonder. FFXIV's Aether is a good example because the magic system serves as both the problem and the solution and we can see characters like Urianger and Y'shtola go back and forth with eachother and be like "okay I don't see the full picture but I'm on board with the pieces rn" there's also that idea that the system is hard for the characters, but not to us looking from the outside-in. Which i think is equally as awesome.

I love how Marie and David probably wrote down their names on their nametags themselves, but someone else most likely stepped in to write down Brandon's name. We all know exactly why xD

The concept of a child chosen by society mentioned at 36:00 is actually the main conflict in Beyond Redemption by Michael R. Fletcher. Fantastic book (have yet to read the rest of the series) where belief shapes reality and personal delusions, when strong enough, manifest as "powers".

I am writing a fantasy series with elements of magic. I agree that the use of magic must come at some cost and be finite, or risk losing the reader.

I like the sword forms being part of the fighting in wheel of Time . Just my opinion though

Stormlight was the first Epic Fantasy I had read, started it this year. I just was so caught up on every detail, I kinda of memorized dates, writed theories and all. But now, damn, I wasn't confused and making the math wrong, the timeline just, it's there i guess. (A little mad over how much I tried to understand the time flow in the books for nothing)

Wait, does Brandon not monetize this channel? I just realized that I never get ads when I’m watching his videos. You need to be payed for this Brandon!!

Coe's talk about a finite budget reminded me of Spawn. Now that's an interesting magic system. The "given powers by powerful supernatural entity" thing's been done of course. But Spawn got a one-time finite amount of "magic" - once he spends it all, it's gone forever. This is both "hard" and "soft" because his precise powers aren't defined, but if he does something spectacular he's that much closer to hitting 0. AND he doesn't know his limit - can't feel it.

Good job Adam! The sound on this panel is the best one I've heard from JordanCon.

I thoroughly enjoyed listening to all the points David Coe made.

I really enjoyed this discussion. There is something deeply satisfying about listening to creative people discuss their own separate approach to their brand of artistic field. I listen to groups of horror directors do the same thing. Very inspiring.

Great stuff as always! David B. Coe is criminally underrated. I put him in the same category as Brandon when it comes to pumping out a steady stream of consistently good books that span multiple sub-genres of SFF.

I'm creating a story where nobody is born with manic but instead make deals with aliens that exchange powers for there characters' five senses. Exchanging all five of your senses nets you five powers of your choosing (granted you can't see, feel, smell, taste, or hear)

Ooo! Excited to watch this! Marie Brennan's series is absolutely lovely!

Thank you for another great video!🍃

This is a great panel that helped me think more about the nuances of how magic is used in storytelling! It should probably be added to the conventions panel playlist at some point.

I purchased the first novel in two of Marie Brennan's series after watching this. (I already own all of yours, Brandon)

Hey, thanks for posting this one. I hadn't thought about "non-genetic" magic, before, but this one got me curious and informed the story I'm writing now

David B Coe at the 19 min mark is really insightful, as well as Marie Brennan at the 52 min mark and the answers through the 56 min mark. And that point about being respectful of the reader at the 59 min mark (also follow up immediately after).

First rule of JordanCon Magic system: Please Do not move Chairs.

that was great. thanks guys, for sharing

I have always enjoyed various magic systems, whether it's more implied and part or the world or its genetic etc. So long as the the characters and plots are well written I'm usually in. 😀

Great video. Too great.

I don't like comparing authors, because it's not nice to compare humans to eachother, but i have to say that my respect for Brandon grew even more when the other authors were "attacking" Harry Potter and Brandon did not play ball. I absolutely loved that.

Really great panel. Got strong FOMO vibes after seeing more of JordanCon in videos.

I prefer magic systems where everyone can become powerful if they give enough time and effort

I like the system of sympathetic magic from Patrick Rothfuss’ Kingkiller chronicles as an example of a “non-genetic” magic system. You learn it but some are better at it than others just like any subject, etc.

I would love to hear all of you on a podcast talking for like 15 hours

=================== Books Mentioned =================== Harry Potter Series - JK Rowling Wheel Of Time - Robert Jordan Lord Of The Rings - (You know who it is) Runelords - David Farland Tigana - Guy Gavriel Kay The Hand of the Sun King: Book One - J.T. Greathouse Elantris - Brandon Sanderson Stormlight Archive - Brandon Sanderson Mistborn - Brandon Sanderson The Thief Taker Series - DB Jackson NB: I might have missed some, or the title might've not been stated overtly. Please correct me in a reply.

I was there! It was a very good talk.

This totally helped w/ a story I'm writing..

I’d never seen Brandon Sanderson before, I definitely expected him to be older given the amount of books he’s written!

I like Brandon's reference to the real science of the world when talking about his magic systems. I would only add that people don't confuse the magic and science in their stories (for each other) because even though both can follow logic (which is what I think he meant by that), they are still two very different elements to the world.

I've been made my own non-genetic magic system (maybe this will be not so non-genetic or more like "inborn" wit it). The people in my story got their magic by the *Sea* 's generosity. The rule is simple: whoever born at the sea, will granted a gift of magic. Because the sea itself seeing them as their own child. So, almost every sailors are basically a magician. I won't spoiled the rest lol.

Super interesting video, thanks a lot

14:46 I personally have no problem with sensing power levels. When they tried to quantify the force in the Star Wars prequels with midichlorians, it didn't work as well for me. 34:52 I disagree 100% with this criticism. The sword form names is actually a great way of world building without taking you out of the action. It would only work as an example, if he described the swordform, where it originated, why it got that name, etc. 35:04 So what? You're going to have a blank page in the middle of your book to show how blank Rand's mind was? 🙃

That might sound ridiculous, but I like magic system in Naruto. It's a combination of both genetic and non-genetic. Everyone can learn how to use chakra, but not everyone will be able to reach the top. You have to be born with it, or be exceptional in other ways.

I love Brandon but I feel so sad for the other authors because most of the questions are related to Brandon's magic systems and it seems that no one had really came for them 😭 Great interview btw, love listening to this man :')

great panel

Amazing stuff

The Magic system Brandon outlines kind of sounds like the ょきひじょ from secret project#3 Yumi and the nightmare painter

Theres another kind of magic system we dont really talk about that much, which cannot be confined as a hard magic system nor a soft magic system. Youll find it almost always in anime and manga, and rarely anywhere else. Jojos and One Piece are really classic examples of this. Technically, theres no rules on what a devil fruit or a stand power can or cant be, except for a few ground rules like how all devil fruit users cant swim and stands can only be seen by other stand users. But the powers are clearly defined in their limitations from a case by case basis. I think this allows for the flexibility from a worldbuilding perspective that soft magic writers want, while still making something solid to latch onto for us hard boys. Plus, having a special ability that is uniquely one characters just feels nice.

Pierre Grimbert did a similar thing with a pregnant character in his Ji series, and it was really cool: the basic premise of the series is that there's a place where gods are born and shaped, and a pregnant character spends time there, which has consequences in a sequel. I won't spoil it for yall, but I recommend it.

2:43 love to the captioned they captioned Implications, capital I

Quick question: Who here wouldn't absolutely love a comedic character who is desperately trying to educate the entire team about Alistair the Alliterative when everyone else is fighting for their lives?

Completely disagree about their critique of WoT naming sword forms. It feels less like the characters thinking it through mid fight and more like an observer naming them. It allows for visualisation of the forms without describing the physical movements of their bodies; each form connotes an image to me.

The problem with the Implications of Harry Potter is that all the kids sleep through History- which is taught by a dusty old ghost. Hermione is the only one who uses her brain in the series, which is another reason it can stay so light hearted. Harry just isn't very smart.

This is interesting because (whether you enjoy it or not), My Hero Academia ***SPOILERS FOR THE MANGA AND ANIME ----- DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T READ OR WATCHED IT*** actually hits on a lot of these points. The main protagonist is born with literally ZERO magic (hero powers or quirks, but I will refer to as magic) yet he inherits a piece of magic (Quirk) which has the potential to become the most powerful. But this is only because of the people who had it before him and because of the character himself. It's a very interesting dynamic and something which hasn't been explored often in western media (from my experience).

i'm so high and their talk is so good

My best example is Dust from Endless Legends. A self replicating nanites able to interact with matter and energy so great, it can make miracles.

I read a lot of Mercedes Lackey books(Heralds of Valdemar/Velgarth), and love her magic systems. Basicaly there is a pool of magical power that a few people can tap into. This requires a natural Mage level gift and training, plus some are stronger than others. (Some can barly manage a basic fire spell to light a camp fire, others can build a hotpool for bathing for eg). Blood magic users tends to be evil. Then you have the self powered personal 'gifts' of the Heralds (everthing from mild empathy telepathy, fetching gifts up to the one or two pyrokenetics. (Not Mages)

Potholes (breaks in the world building) are potholes. You travel down the road the story is taking and occasionally the is a bump. If the journey is interesting you ignore occasional small bumps. The bigger the bumps and the more often they come the less the top is worth it. That's why I hated the water of irreplaceable resources for comparatively little on Waterworld but ignored it in Mad Max II

Discworld does it both ways. Any eighth son of an eighth son is a wizard, but also, any son of a wizard is also a wizard.

I love you mr Sanderson .

I think this is another areas where the MICE quotient is relevant. Idea-based magic systems will be "hard", character-based magic (like which depends on moral issues, like moral purity, or being able to make a sacrifice to exchange for magical power) will be soft. Event-based magic would be situations that depend on an event happening that won't repeat for a long while, like an astronomical conjunction) is pretty hard; and setting-based magic will depend on relationships or status, or environment, can be hard or soft.

The core point in the “believable” is internal consistence, I believe. If a setting is consistent its cosmogony, history of nations, and the sort of people who lives in it belong together. As long as you are able to explain the system without being boring it will be believable. The most believable cosmogony I ever saw is Aristotle’s Physics of Natural Places. If happens to not be how our universe is, sadly, but it explains all things (that normal humans see with their own senses) with gorgeous simplicity and perfect consistency. However, explain a world without being boring is tricky. Use familiar elements makes that task easier. And New Darwinism is fairly familiar to about every audience able to read nowadays. It happens to be the way most of us believe the (arguably) real world functions. Most people probably have a cloudy and imperfect notion about “Evolution” and “natural selection”, but they have a general notion, and that points in the same general direction. Which is, broadly speaking, the direction New Darwinism points to. No one has to go in the fine specific points of Genetics to get that familiar taste. People do selective breeding since before written language, the notion that you get animals a lot more aggressive if you cross the most aggressive dogs you have with the each other on purpose for a few hundred generations is so self-evident that any “scientist” who tries to “disprove” it will sound like a liar. For good reason. Is an interesting exercise to imagine how would be the world if was not a general truth (general, not universal) that children inherit their physical characteristics and temperament from their parents. Broadly speaking. Or how would be a world where individuals where actually “born equal” in potential, with the same advantages and disadvantages (even if only in the organic level). One thing that is obvious from start is that a setting with any of those characteristics would be radically different from the setting we are living in. The (arguably) real world.

I like the idea that magic comes from "others" fae, demons, etc where you need to "control" or "deal" to get effects.

There's a lot to unpack here. Thank you for this.

I think of the suspension of disbelief is a kind of willing contract between the reader and author. Both parties must act in good faith or one side will back out.

Oooooo, I've never thought about this before! :D

Wow cool!!

Regarding the essay(s) that Brandon mentioned he wrote, is there somewhere we can read it/them?

I hate it whenever these panels/lectures turn into Cosmere Q&A. I am a cosmere fan, but I'M NOT HERE FOR THAT RIGHT NOW