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Non-Turbo Power Gains | Mercedes-Benz 190E Evo 2 DTM [TECH TOUR]
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Күн бұрынWhat secrets were used for this 350HP naturally aspirated 2.5L inline 4 completely dominate DTM's 1992 field including Audis 4-wheel drive monster 3.6L V8 DTM (before it withdrew that year)? Let’s find out.
At the Goodwood Festival of Speed Andre had a chance to look over one of the most successful DTM car models of all time, the W201 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.5-16 Evolution II. Gert from Mercedes-Benz Classic was on hand to share some history on the 1992 DTM spec car which were some of the last to be somewhat comparable to what you could find on the showroom floor due to the homologation process, albeit in limited numbers of 500 that were often sold out before production was even finished.
The 350HP to 360HP 2.5L 16 valve engine was produced by Cosworth for Mercedes-Benz at the time and ran a Bosch Motronic ECU which was the pinnacle of technology at the time. Combined with an improved ignition system, the weight reduction of internal engine components and variable cam control on both the inlet and exhaust allowed the team to take the engine from 235HP to around 360HP. The revolutions per minute also went up from 7,500 RPM to 10,000RPM contributing to the top-end power, and the intake system uses a slide throttle setup in place of a butterfly valve as well as being bench adjusted between rounds to suit track layouts.
The Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.5-16 Evo 2 DTM won at almost all DTM rounds in the 1992 season with the factory Mercedes team drivers Klaus Ludwig and Bernd Schneider coming 1st and 3rd respectively, and Zakspeed driver Kurt Thiim placing 2nd also piloting an EVO2.
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@alejandro52612 4 жыл бұрын
Man this channel is pure Gold. It’s not just the clear communication and concise questions, it’s the mutual desire to understand the technology of efficiently producing horsepower in the pursuit of speed.
@ryansmithza 4 жыл бұрын
An awesome and unique KZfaq experience indeed! I love it!
@walirifai 4 жыл бұрын
The accents in this video are beautiful. Clear proof that cars unite people 🏁🏁
@Metalwolf765 4 жыл бұрын
Oh man, the way that dude just lights up when he realizes you want to talk engineering with him!
@NICK-uy3nl 4 жыл бұрын
It is not just the engine, the production 190e chassis is stiff as a bank vault. Amazing car. Great interview.
@tomwagemans1872 4 жыл бұрын
NA on itb's. Who doesn't like that sound?
@fabrb26 4 жыл бұрын
cops
@mt4xcs 4 жыл бұрын
@@fabrb26 Facts, especially in germany
@502C.r.H 4 жыл бұрын
@@fabrb26 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@MMK86 4 жыл бұрын
theres only one...Greta Thunberg...lol
@zeroswings2 4 жыл бұрын
love, LOVE all the 190 evo II DTM videos... I'm fascinated with everything about these cars
@garciawallace7106 4 жыл бұрын
My favorite car of all time😁
@hpa101 4 жыл бұрын
You have great taste 😎- Taz.
@mexicossie1592 4 жыл бұрын
What impressed me most about the 190E was the handling some tracks had very high kerbs & the 190 would ride them like a flat road but the bmw had to avoid them love em love em love em
@hueyfinesse 3 жыл бұрын
the 190 was originaly built for group b rally, therefore the suspension had to be supreme. first production car with multilink suspension and the cosworth models even had self leveling suspension in the back. Evo 2 models had the option to configure ride hight from the dash. Even a normal 190 with healthy bushings will handle like a dream.
@FukU2222 4 жыл бұрын
Lol, three stages of injectors for a(n) NA 4 cyl engine, what a different era...
@ryansmithza 4 жыл бұрын
I'm desperately trying to not say "E30 ///M3" These touring cars were absolutely fantastic, the racing was epic and my preferred brand, at the time, was in a class of its own...
@amduser86 4 жыл бұрын
the e190 evo ii was the was faster car in the last iteration. still miss the evo i i had during the time i studied. made quite a lot of money with the car. but getting another evo i is next to impossilble. they are even less evo i's then evo ii's, since the evo ii was always quite exepensive.
@fulltopmax1 4 жыл бұрын
this channel is just astounding, thank you Andre and the team for putting these videos out, they're an absolute treasure.
@hpa101 4 жыл бұрын
Cheers for the kind words, I'll make sure Andre sees them :) - Taz.
@HarelDZL 4 жыл бұрын
Okay we know stustutututu thing is fun...but damn high rev NA machine with flat power graph and ITB with trumpet sound have a special place in our heart...
@mattwarren69 4 жыл бұрын
wow ... 360hp from a 2.5 NA 4 banger. Nice
@hpa101 4 жыл бұрын
Extra pictures and information on the EVO II slide throttle body setup can be found here: bit.ly/2NLECP8 - Taz 👨🏻
@grumpystony 4 жыл бұрын
Makes me wonder. That a 2500cc 4 cylinder making 350hp na in 1992. The btcc/wtcc 1993-94 Nissan primera was rumored to have 2000cc 330hp 4 cylinder. Old DTM and (X)TCC cars from the 90s are my fondest memories of racing.
@Buzdu22 4 жыл бұрын
I doubt that's very accurate as the 1992 190 was quicker than the M3, and the M3 is said to have had around 380hp in it's final iteration ;)
@jareknowak8712 4 жыл бұрын
There are some daily driven Civic's with k20/k24 all motor with aprox the same level of power.
@l7ragoon 4 жыл бұрын
you think about it, theat categorty in the past makes it a very good engine for street cars. k24 200-600whp all motor 2019
@grumpystony 4 жыл бұрын
@@l7ragoon what about k24s with 600hp. Those have 30+% of nitromethane. And it's an engine designed mid 2000s. Besides those engines couldn't do 3 consecutive lap. So no. Dont even mention that garbage. Not in the same realm. The accurate era correct engine from Honda they used was the Honda accord-r power plant. Made less power than nissan. Sr20.
@RS-nq8xk 3 жыл бұрын
@@grumpystony 170hp from 1.6l in a street engine in like 1994.
@soraaoixxthebluesky 4 жыл бұрын
The good old day of a glorious McLaren Honda and Senna. The good old day of the peak and the dead of monstrous Group C race car. The good old day of a V8 vs 4-cylinder NA GT race car. Back then the motorsports regulations is crazy.
@g_luke1946 4 жыл бұрын
legendary benz...on of my fav. dtm cars!
@nickgretchenroper2496 4 жыл бұрын
I love this series and this channel! Never Lift!
@ValladolidArde 4 жыл бұрын
amazing interview, shame this guy was soooooooooooo tight on handing out the recipe for the power despite Shanes amazing capacity to formulate superb questions. Not only that....but no credit is given to Danny Snobeck the first guys to develop the 190e 16v for circuit racing or Cosworth for the cylinder head....real pros give credit to fellow team members
@TheGreyTest 4 жыл бұрын
ValladolidArde I think he was probably too busy formulating his sentences to go into that much detail. Also they could have been a bit short of time or something else maybe. I’m definitely no expert, but my guess when it comes to the Recipe for Power, build your engine to extremely fine and accurate tolerances.
@oscarzt1652 4 жыл бұрын
i thought he was called andre
@kize32 4 жыл бұрын
How that engineer just circles around with his answers like he's afraid he'll give up some classified top secret information. Dude, we get it, that era of DTM was one of the most exciting racing ever but that was 30 years ago, We want the juice not some general info every 1st grader knows
@Buzdu22 4 жыл бұрын
That's what I was thinking, as the Benz was quicker then the M3 by '92, and the BMW had around 380hp, fact.
@combee23 4 жыл бұрын
Same. Taz is trying hard to keep a conversation going but nothing juicy unfortunately.
@ValladolidArde 4 жыл бұрын
yeah not only that....no credit is given to Danny Snobeck the first guys to develop the 190e for circuit racing or cosworth for the engine....dude probably has no clue because it was UK tech
@gregthemechanicman 4 жыл бұрын
The honest truth is.. they aren't doing ANYTHING we are not doing as par for the course in most engine builds now.. you heard lightweight pistons so they can rev higher.. and they had old school vvti tech back then which is now just standard.. we already do multiple injectors per cylinder now.. we can virtually pulse our coils WHENEVER we want now to effectively change timing to whatever degree you could imagine to play with stuff like either peak hp or peak torque whichever is more important to you. WHAT I WANT TO KNOW... what are they up to these days behind closed doors with an unlimited budget to just play with ideas till something works.. with modern CAD work with flow animations alone you could speed through to actual parts quickly for testing.
@jareknowak8712 4 жыл бұрын
@@gregthemechanicman thay already had CAD in that era.
@AutobahnVault 4 жыл бұрын
Excellent interview with a little more technical information than the average video.
@wrighty338 4 жыл бұрын
Cracking interview, thanks
@Manuqtix.Manuqtix 3 жыл бұрын
The mercedes-benz m102 2.5l 16valve is such a nice engine Only if you can mount it fwd transversal in your engine bay Maybe you can, anything is possible, but the engine is very expensive to get and it's not as plentiful like its m111 successor
@Liveforeever 4 жыл бұрын
My b20 vtec makes 118hp/litre and this merc is 140hp/litre but revs above 10000rpm, mines limited to 8000rpm so I'm impressed..
@johncorboy7952 4 жыл бұрын
Knowledge wow ,great interview
@Kp61dude_ 4 жыл бұрын
Tuning is so beautiful!
@00xxsorenxx00 3 жыл бұрын
What are absolutely legend Gert is!
@stevepitbull 2 жыл бұрын
Outstanding
@trumpit-yy5fn 4 жыл бұрын
Now we need to know about intake lengths.
@CorruptInfinityOfficial 3 жыл бұрын
That’s harder to get into as some of the rules and tendencies of each platforms intake needs will be different, that’s something that would be better to find out from your platforms community.
@idin1976 4 жыл бұрын
Lovely videos. Thank you. Now need Delta S4. (190E DTM, Delta S4, 155 DTM my golden triangle).
@jstdrv 3 жыл бұрын
Excellent stuff!
@drunktortila3632 4 жыл бұрын
Wow that was great love the videos, would particularly like more information on how the two injector locations would make a difference. Comments welcome to help clear this up!
@codenamecordon 4 жыл бұрын
Drunk Tortila I’m guessing you could use the injectors (and the fuel pressure coming from them) to control the turbulence in the intake under part throttle, but that’s just guessing.
@-smp-scientificmethodpersp838 4 жыл бұрын
I'm in love with this car
@JWorldAdventures 4 жыл бұрын
Fantastic video guys. Love the content!
@hpa101 4 жыл бұрын
Cheers mate! This car is a favourite around the office so it was a real privilege to be able to shoot this video. A wee insider note for you too, we're going to bump up the release schedule for you guys very soon 🤘- Taz.
@HEKTIC458 4 жыл бұрын
360hp for a 4 cylinder NA is huge!
@colinmunro7337 4 жыл бұрын
Like big aircooled 2valve push rod VW's on carbs,they make simular power
@Eric06410 4 жыл бұрын
Dream Car soooooo much want.
@MofabLLCDenver 4 жыл бұрын
Great job as always guys. Looking forward to PRI Coverage
@hpa101 4 жыл бұрын
We're adding SEMA to the list this year too. First one from there should be out soon. Busy busy! - Taz.
@bernardwarr4187 3 жыл бұрын
Classic interview 👍
@2ndnb536 2 жыл бұрын
2:00 Audi never made a 4.5 liter engine (4.2 yes), but the Audi V8 (d11) DTM race car was running a 3.6liter engine.
@koutros100 4 жыл бұрын
Love your work Keep it up
@wilber4rce 4 жыл бұрын
I do like these interview videos, if you get the chance could you do one of the opel/irmscher DTM omega/Carlton? TIA
@DexMaster881 4 жыл бұрын
People like to talk about how Cosworth made 16v for the 190. Noone talks about this. How Mercedes made everything else. Its like anything we can do to discredit the Germans but British smallest achievement is Grand.
@colinmunro7337 4 жыл бұрын
A monkey can make a short motor,the trick is in the head.
@hpa101 4 жыл бұрын
It takes a village to raise a race car and have it all come together as it did for sure - Taz.
@aaronmcconnell9369 11 ай бұрын
Awesome
@CCP_zhongguo_sai_B 3 жыл бұрын
Basically VTEC abs slight throttle on a racing car. Hopefully someone will produce a VTEC aftermarket set up for the road going 190E?
@timocallaghan4408 4 жыл бұрын
Very underrated platform.. would love to drop a K24 in one to make a modern day interpretation
@hpa101 4 жыл бұрын
You have our blessing! - Taz.
@spyrosm.2871 4 жыл бұрын
360 NA? WOW
@robertrodriguezFhortune 4 жыл бұрын
DTM 90's 👌👌
@MrCornholios 4 жыл бұрын
They have insane average piston speeds on the longer stroke 2.5 liter engines.
@gordowg1wg145 4 жыл бұрын
There are two different strokes I found cited, the longer being 87.2mm. [edit] Seems it WAS destroked to 82.8mm, with a larger bore than the 'road' car - some drag Honda engines have a LOT more stroke and rpm. For example - 106mm stroke and well into 5 figures - www.4pistonracing.com/k24-480-2-7l-complete-engine
@carholic-sz3qv 4 жыл бұрын
Send that engine to Honda and they will tell you how to make a good engine
@MrCornholios 4 жыл бұрын
@@gordowg1wg145 Do you realy want to compare 30 year old technology with the latest ?
@TheSpekkel1 3 жыл бұрын
@@MrCornholios You bet when a jdm car enthusiast finds an opportunity to belittle 30yo race engines, with newer honda engine sporting modern tuning accoutrements, that they will never shut up about it.
@Mecatronicgarage 4 жыл бұрын
respect
@ze_german2921 4 жыл бұрын
144hp/liter thats pretty good. a stock Honda S2000 makes 120hp/liter
@hpa101 4 жыл бұрын
Quite a few years between those engines too eh - Taz.
@dipshitballliker 3 жыл бұрын
Fkrs
@flyonbyya 4 жыл бұрын
Curious what compression ratio and fuel was used
@quest8795 4 жыл бұрын
With an output like that, it might be around 12:1 and 100 octane fuel Maybe more, but I'd guess something in that area
@jareknowak8712 4 жыл бұрын
@@quest8795 12:1 comp. have 1998 Mitsubishi Carisma GDI, stock car on E98. This Merc have probably much, much higher.
@supersevenn 4 жыл бұрын
@@quest8795 i would say it was higher than that
@quest8795 4 жыл бұрын
Ah, well, it was just a guess 😅 But, whatever the compression ratio is, it's gonna be high
@XvBABYvX 4 жыл бұрын
I'd be interested to know the compression ratio.
@sven7639 4 жыл бұрын
I do not think that anything has changed in compression. The EVO II in Europe had a compression of 10.5:1, the vehicles in the US 9.7:1 because they had to run with unleaded gasoline
@timm5970 4 жыл бұрын
Its not hitting those numbers without being in excess of 13:1 c/r
@guillaumed8107 3 жыл бұрын
The same with the class C V6 DTM please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@poppa5289 4 жыл бұрын
Looks like a group A.
@jeancharlesrabaux5658 4 жыл бұрын
C est ma préférez de cher Mercedes la 190 2l5 16s un avions
@gordowg1wg145 4 жыл бұрын
Good interview, some of the criticism doesn't seem to be fair and/or ill-informed?
@ashteregg2133 4 жыл бұрын
this guy voice reminds me of Arnim Zola
@jacquesgold 4 жыл бұрын
These cars come from a time when Men were men & woman were nervous, when safe sex meant making sure the father wasn't home, when sex was safe & racing was dangerous!!!! Long Live NA Power, long live Flat slide throttle bodies, long live the NA 4cyl @9000 rpm while bouncing off the limiter then flat shifting the 6 speed sequential box.... oooooohhhh mama, these were good times!!!!
@anthonyparle7342 4 жыл бұрын
I assume this is Engine HP, is that assumption correct?
@TurboAcki 4 жыл бұрын
Audi V8 was 3.6l V8 - not 4.5l V8...
@hpa101 4 жыл бұрын
You are 100% correct, annoyingly that slipped through sorry. I'll update it once KZfaq lets me as right now it just keeps timing out when I go to edit the video. Thanks! - Taz.
@Grouiiiiik 4 жыл бұрын
Yep first version 3.6 then the 4.2. The Audi V8 was such a special car with it's inverted brake rotors (expensive...) and the full aluminium body.
@TurboAcki 4 жыл бұрын
@@Grouiiiiik Nope. 3.6 V8 the whole time. 92 they used the flat plane crankshaft (out of the cross plane crankshaft of the series production cause it has to be series) and then the forbidden this and Audi quit the DTM...
@Grouiiiiik 4 жыл бұрын
@@TurboAcki Oh I should have precised that was for the production one and not the DTM (with the mention of the brakes I thought it was obvious). Thanks for the precision anyway. Looks like you know quite a bit about the V8s !
@-smp-scientificmethodpersp838 4 жыл бұрын
I wonder if the German had to focus extra hard on what the Aussie was saying to understand him
@SirBigzalot 4 жыл бұрын
New Zealander
@-smp-scientificmethodpersp838 4 жыл бұрын
@@SirBigzalot see what I mean haha
@wraith600original1 4 жыл бұрын
100hp per litre was ok then now it is 200+ per litre NA that is progress
@supersevenn 4 жыл бұрын
besides F1 engines...who makes 200 per liter today?
@samkwant4050 4 жыл бұрын
@@supersevenn bike engines mainly
@sven7639 4 жыл бұрын
@@supersevenn DRAG CARTEL INDUSTRIES and 4 Piston Racing have Honda engines running, pushing 500HP from 2 Liter NA
@colinmunro7337 4 жыл бұрын
JPM in Sweden make mental up with 2 valve air cooled vws.And any serious superstock/competition eliminator engine builder.
@mbevo2343 4 жыл бұрын
It was not Cosworth that make the DTM engines that was AMG
@hpa101 4 жыл бұрын
That is not something I found in my research, only some information about AMG tuning in relation to the road going EVO II's, but it would be a massive help if you supplied some links so I can ensure the description is factual. Thanks MBevo2! - Taz.
@mbevo2343 4 жыл бұрын
@@hpa101 I know it from the days that I saw the dtm but you can see it on KZfaq all so all the Factory teams was tuned 2,5 liters from amg you can see it on the Sonax evo
@hpa101 4 жыл бұрын
Tuning and engine development are 2 different things though. Will see what facts I can dig up =) - Taz.
@neptunevibe 4 жыл бұрын
2:02 "Using a relatively small engine.. 3.5 liters".. Dude.. dude.. those Benzo had 2.5 liters not 3.5!
@hpa101 4 жыл бұрын
Hmmm he says 2.5. Maybe turn the captions on :) - Ben
@muhammadtouseef5417 4 жыл бұрын
Japanese won wd4 cylinders
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