As an American and a Catholic, I resonated with much of this wonderful conversation. As Douglas referenced, there is a movement among younger Catholics to reclaim a staggering richness and depth of beauty that many of us feel robbed of, namely the Latin Mass and various practices that were, consciously by some, expelled from the Church in the 60's and thereafter. But beyond that, there is a hunger to have the institution itself boldly stand for the Truth that does not bow to the shallow whims and pernicious ideologies of the day. As an aside, Matthew 11:12 was mentioned twice during this conversation, and it made me think of the novel by the American southern gothic and Catholic author Flannery O'Connor, who wrote a novel called 'The Violent Bear it Away', based on that very perplexing Gospel verse.

Douglas, an "uncomfortable agnostic", pointing out very accurately what the modern church should be doing, namely preaching the gospel and the truth of the Bible - and stop falling for the same shallow and false ideologies as so many others... Spot on! And Justin is a wonderful moderator.

Splendid conversation, run so smoothly and respectfully. I wish we have more of such intellectual honest people expressing honestly their point of view. JB did a good job moderating it proficiently and professionally.

Douglas Murray could talk with a mute sloth about the plain oatmeal he ate for breakfast and it would probably still be more interesting than most other discussions.

Moving and frankly crushing conversation. The weight is heavy on the shoulders of Murray-it’s painful to listen to someone longing for the hope found in Jesus, but seemingly unable to be comforted. My hope and prayer is for him to encounter the risen Christ! “You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.” ‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭29:13ESV.

For all the times I’ve heard either side is this argument, I’ve almost never heard both points articulated and discussed intelligently in the same room. Thank you for this!

NT being one of my favorite theologians and Murray one of my most inspiring authors, I was downright giddy waiting for this discussion. Thank you!

Both guests are so respectful of each other, and transparent and willing to be vulnerable. Very pleasant to the ears.

Thank you, NT Wright- for speaking kind & bold about our God the Father, Son & Holy Spirit!

I really loved this conversation. What a privilege that we live in a time that it can be broadcast to the world. It reminds me of Matthew 10:27 : “What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops”.

Superb all three - thank you. Douglas's honestly is inspirational - needs to be heard... Tom's faith is inspirational - needs to be heard ...

If only it were possible to give this two thumbs up. Excellent conversation and many thanks to everyone who made this happen.

@113:00 Yes, music is inviting us to something, it is inviting us to worship. That feeling,, that awe, that manifests in us, IS worship. We also experience it in those moments when we stand in awe of creation.

Hey, the Catholic Church has a whole Sacrament devoted to forgiveness. Kind makes it hard to forget.

Great programme. You had two great and articulate thinkers of our time. Thank you!

I take great encouragement from the mere fact of this conversation having happened. A rich interaction, facilitated by a thoroughly capable interviewer, and not the usual debate over faith (Sam Harris destroys!) where two delivery systems for two incompatible worldviews talk past each other. Excellent stuff. The conversation on matters of meaning is maturing.

Excellent, excellent! So much respect for these two men. Such reasonable, knowledgeable, courteous interlocutors! Exemplary. 👏👏

The ancient Greeks tried to shape members of a society to be worthy of leadership positions. Now our leaders are trying to camouflage their sinister inadequacies by creating societies blind to their selfserving agendas. “It is in vain, O men, that you seek within yourselves the cure of all your miseries. All your insight only leads you to the knowledge that it is not in yourselves that you will discover the true and the good. The philosophers promised them to you, and have not been able to keep their promise…" -Blaise Pascal

Ahhh! Just listening to N.T. Wright soothes the soul! He always brings it all right back to the nitty gritty of the reason we are Christians-Jesus!-and so articulately reveals why God’s story is true! I very much enjoyed Douglas’s honesty as he shared his questions as he navigates his journey! Great discussion!

Douglas is a wonderful apologetic for Christianity. Such a genuine honest and delightful man. Mr Wright also is great to hear.

Absolutely loved this episode. Wow! Both these guests are you awesome. It's great to have such open and respectful conversation.

Could have listened to them for hours and hours... Such a beautiful and important conversation. Thank you.

I love listening to you guys. It is so refreshing to listen to people with brains that have used them to reflect on life and its mysteries.

Brilliant conversation, what fascinating and enlightening men! I thank God we still have people like these to testify to the truth! Thank you so much for the good work you do Unbelievable ❤️

I was so excited for this and it did not disappoint!!❤️

Fascinating discussion and very encouraging to hear such depth of thought from all speakers. Many thanks.

Douglas; Music is the language of the soul.. God bless you, sir..

I really enjoy most of NT wrights insights.

This was a great and well thought-out subject. It’s truly helped solidify some of thoughts I had about our current society. The you’re wrong, we’re right with no reconciliation is just horrible, May Jesus save us all.

What an amazing discussion . Thank you ..So much

I have the greatest respect for Douglas Murray not only because he is brilliant but because there is an honest desire for the truth in him. I pray that he will one day be found by the Truth, Our Lord Jesus Christ, and come home to the Real Presence and the fullness of the Truth in the Catholic Church. St Joseph, pray for us.

FABULOUS! FASCINATING! 👍🏼 More please! Thanks for this.

Superb dialogue. Thank you to all involved.

Love these conversations, thank you!

Great conversation! Thank you! I've read quite a bit of Tom Wright, and heard some of his lectures. However, this has been my introduction to Douglas Murray. I've started reading "The Madness of Crowds", and Douglas, I find your talk and your book fascinating and refreshing!

I could listen to both these men for days and days. God bless them 🙏✝️

Thanks Tom, Douglas and Justin!

It is always a great encouragement to me to hear two sides of thinking discussed so respectfully. It’s very helpful to be made aware of the struggles within those who do not find themselves able to believe what the bible teaches as the truth.

Well done Justin. Great show.

This was wonderful. Thank you!

My favorite discussion yet! Great work.

Someone reminded me that loving your enemy doesn't mean you forget he still an enemy.

I couldn't wait for Douglas Murray's appearance on The Rubin Report with Peter Boghossian and documentary film maker Travis Brown . Had to get my fix of rationality, reason and clarity. Thanks for looking out.

As with many channels that DM appears on I find myself subbing and staying for other conversations. Great discussion.

Great discussion. Thank you very much.

Thankyou. A wonderful thought-provoking conversation.

Incredible interview.

Loved this conversation!!

Fantastic. Moving. Timely.... and, timeless.

You are right, the transfiguration mountain transfigured my faith too, when I realized what place I look at, being there. It received that aspect of physical joy that previously wasn't there, and it stays with me. Now, before abandoning my faith, I will have some explaining to do.

I do tire of the constant use of "there's a sense in which". Thank you for mentioning the resurrection, the one discontinuity/disruptive event without which the emergence of Western culture can't be explained.

What an awesome conversation. My hope for unity and the search for Truth is restored. Thank you to all 3 of you that such an exchange can happen where heart speaks to heart and the need to be right is left at the door. As I listened I was thinking, "What a mystery...all these differing conclusions. Doesn't it mean that faith is received, and not arrived at entirely through reason? I know I didn't give it to myself and I believe that God would give it to anyone who seeks Him, without question. Maybe as the catechism says it's the 'obedience of faith'? Like Moses removes his sandals and bows in reverence; then God reveals Himself and certainty comes. 'God is the One who initiates this encounter. He gets his attention and Moses bows, and because he has the right disposition of heart God reveals Himself. He even tells him His Name.' (I am loosely citing Fr (Robert?) Langforde here.) I wonder if Douglas' desire to believe in God means he already does, just not in religion and is just sad that it hasn't produced more saints than it has, similar to my own sorrow that I'm not a saint yet either. Does it mean that I failed God if faith hasn't yet produced in me a sufficient likeness to Jesus? To His sanctity and sacrificial love? Have mercy oh Lord and hurry! Time is running out! Though I may not be capturing his meaning perfectly I love Tom's comment that this tension will always be one that remains. I will always be a sinner in need of my Savior and if I suddenly figured out all that I should do and be, knowing myself I would most assuredly take over, try to be my own God, and ruin everything. I am Catholic but I am also happily now an NT Wright fan as well. And at Douglas' comment; I'm not surprised that there aren't many practitioners of nihilism. I mean we can't help but want more because we didn't create ourselves and so can't get rid of that hunger. Otherwise we would all be happy materialists instead of the miserable ones that we are. :)

Excellent conversation! Thanks!

Listening again two years later.

I think Douglas made a very interesting observation at the beginning about the church tradition being abandoned and how many people are grieving over that including himself. But what was even more fascinating is that he equalised that with The Gospel. And how often we do this?! Things that are dear to us in our culture, that has been even shaped by the Gospel we confuse them with the Gospel itself.

Fantastic and I loved that comment about music that Douglas volunteered

The best of the Brits!!

Wonderful discussion.

Thumbnail is the happiest I’ve ever seen Murray look.

Douglas Murray's complaint is a poignant one. WHY is Tom Wright an anomaly in the Church? Nevertheless, two intellectual giants. I love them both. I pray for them both. They are needed.

"Broken Signpost" - what a brilliant book title by Tom. It reminds me a little of John Lennox's 'beauty and barbed wire' metaphor too.

Great conversation! Thoroughly enjoyed it.

Douglas puts it all together so well as an uncomfortable agnostic.. Thank you so much for holding the church to its standards. I think you make a huge contribution from the outside of our faith, especially to those who would not listen to the pastors. Its not the bible at fault, but rather the lukewarmness of the church and those who still call themselves Christians and preach the most appalling heresy, eg. Church of England.

As a follower of NT Wright I thought he missed the mark with his letter to Murray in the Spectator. He misunderstood the nature of Wokery but it seems that Tom is now aware of the antichristic beliefs within that philosophical system. I also thought that Tom was too quick to beat his breast about past failures with racism in the church. Douglass schooled him on that matter quite comprehensively. What kind of a Christian really thinks that the church had it hopelessly and utterly wrong for two thousand years only to have a bunch of violent Marxist/Frankfurt School thugs point out to us for the first time that racism was wrong??? And if the church had it wrong for its entire history, then how arrogant must we be to think that we've finally cracked the mystery of what true Christianity really looks like?

Can we take a moment to appreciate how brilliant Murray's impression of Chris Hitchens at 17:30 is? :)

Very sharp people discussing a very relevant topic. Thanks JB. Beautiful discussion about the so called 'thin places' are found in Philip Yancey's RUMORS OF ANOTHER WORLD, or Peter Berger's A RUMOR OF ANGELS.

I'm an (imperfect) Orthodox Jew and I very much enjoyed this discussion.

Really wish this had more views. Absolutely fascinating convo. NT Wright should have the exposure of a Douglas Murray. Would love to see him on any one of the Intellectual Dark Web member's podcast

Very interesting, thought provoking and important conversation.

I think Douglas is God's provision to challenge the church to be what it should be. I would like to encourage him to stay true to this.

I love the discussion. I lived 40 years without faith. Then, suddenly and unexpectedly, God entered my world which led me to consider - eventually accept/invite - Jesus. This discussion, while important and well-intentioned, is struggling to describe what the "Church" is in the abstract and using ethical terms. Yet, our current readings in the Mass point to the ANSWER. The church is not built on doctrine, nor ethics. It is built on love as evidenced in the full life of Christ, an ethic of the Sermon on the Mount, lived to the full - which always leads to the Cross. Christ is the Way - "Love one another as I have loved you." The love of Christ is a sacrificial love. The only way the "world will change" is when individual people change. One can embrace the change to love as an "ethical" choice, but the clearest path to this kind of love is the path of Love of Christ - and it has a COST that we must individually choose to pay.

This was amazing. Thanks.

It's a long to get to a an honest conversation. Thank you

Douglas Murray is more Christian than he thinks he is and understands Christianity's core message really well. God bless him ;-)

Amazing thank you

big fan of douglas murray

Justin: I'm just happy to be here, let me get out of the way. Tom: We should show the truth about Jesus through love for all people made in God's image. Douglas: I agree. And you if you divorce the truth about Jesus (which I don't personally believe) from that love, and substitute postmodern Marxist theories, you will destroy the church and the world.

This was such a joy & blessing to watch. God bless you

They both shone with the questions at the end. I would love to see Douglas Murray on the 'Lord of Spirits' podcast with Fr. Steven De Young and Fr. Andrew Damik.

2 guys that both think and speak lucidly ,candidly and interestingly

I have loved this conversation and honesty. Agree with Douglas how the church needs to stop apologising for itself. I love answers from NT Wright . For me this missing piece is the link between Judaism and Christianity. Much of Christianity has lost its understanding because it has missed understanding the Torah. Messiah Yeshua/ Jesus did not appear in the new testament but deeply rooted in the Old Testament.

Very good.

I believe

9Marks book the Compelling Community is a must for anyone who intrigued by this video

Great point by Tom Wright about coming as a society to believe the Enlightenment Lie that Christianity was no more than part of the problem rather than where to look for the solution. An interesting topic in its own right, Justin, for a future programme?

Murray is exactly where I was when I was an atheist. I saw humanists around me with no cognitive dissonance, but I couldn't understand it. Humanism made no sense. I kept looking at the foundation of the worldview and it was incapable of supporting anything of substantive value. “Granted that we want the truth: why not rather untruth? And uncertainty? Even ignorance?” - Nietzsche -

Justin, one of the best episodes ever. Have never been a huge NT Wright fan because of some of his questionable theology, but incredibly impressed (once again) by Douglas in his search for truth without straw manning Christianity. Well done, Justin, yet again.

Unbelievable

Tom Wright a new voice on KZfaq. Thanks. Somehow trustworthy.

I had a friend who considered himself an anarchist, and he and his friends set up an anarchist band to play anarchistic music without melody or rhythm or structure of any kind. They gave up in the end, because they found that they kept returning to some kind of order, no matter how hard they tried. They just played music, after that.

I would love to hear a conversation between Tom Holland and Douglas Murray. Both are "wistful unbelievers" with a profound respect for Christianity, but Tom Holland is more liberal. Holland sees the admission of millions of refugees into Europe as a Christian act, whereas Murray believes it is weakening Europe and the Christian inheritance. I tend to agree with Murray, but I would like to see them debate that issue.

"Just believe" is one of the sillier commands the religious foist on us. Belief arises from deep experience. It isn't willed consciously.

We have yet to get to loving our enemies in a very real, very practical sense. It is radical, it is revolutionary, and perhaps terrifyingly different. But clearly, it is Jesus's mandate...and if we really followed it, would lead to a great societal transformation in the direction of that which we yearn to find visible in the world:. Love and peace.

Douglas is right . Christians must actually live the Gospel.

Question: 2+2 = ? Wright: Well, Jesus of course Haha I jest. I actually love his conviction in Jesus, and quite honestly I’d be willing to accept that answer^. Great conversation! Nothing but love for this Unbelievable show where the conversations are certainly not small.

Deeply satisfying conversation between smart men of good will. Can we add women?

To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant.” ― John Henry Newman

Thank you Andrew I have your book on the madness. I watch alot of your interviews as you are a true bastion of absolutes vs relativism. One thing that never comes up in these conversations is the reality of sin. Something that I personally think Andrew would benefit discussing in depth and of course for the restof us to enjoy and pray for Andrew to see the revealed truth to be blessed with joy unspeakable from on high.

Tom Wright is a broken record. That's the best metaphor to arise out of this discussion. We cant make sense of life or receive the divine comfort without Jesus.

37:46 I think, in ower days there is a misunderstanding about forgiveness and putting things under the carpet.