Nuance in K-pop: The Good, The Bad, and the Problematic
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Күн бұрынK-pop has taken the world by storm and with that comes great music and artistry, but also the darker sides of the entertainment industry that we all know too well - the mistreatment of young stars, unrealistic beauty standards, and some questionable cultural exchanges. In this video, I try to cover it all.*
But first, a little background. I stopped listening to K-pop for around a decade. I’d say from 2013 until this year I’ve stayed pretty far away from it. However, this year I started listening to it again and the music has never been so good. I was truly blown away.
I’m really glad to be back, but at the same time I had to catch up on everything that happened while I was away, and the things that I wasn’t paying attention to when I was in high school when I originally was introduced to it, and it was… a lot.
I’ve had to reckon with how I feel about it, but in the end, I still like it, and I hope this video helps you understand why and helps you think about K-pop in a new way.
*Know that this video is only scratching the surface of K-pop and by no means delves into every single thing about the industry.
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If you want to know more please go to the references and sources Google Doc here and do your own research as well:
tinyurl.com/3p49mkx9
~my favorite K-pop songs (as of now)~
tinyurl.com/4fu3kvjf
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**For viewers with light sensitivity**
Throughout the entire video there are clips shown either from K-pop performances or music videos which contain rapid moving lights (including strobe lights), rooms filled with LED screens, and montages of fast moving light sequences.
FLASHING LIGHT TIME STAMPS:
I’ve outlined the timestamps to avoid in this GoogleDoc because they didn't fit in the description.
tinyurl.com/4avkck62
Please proceed with caution.
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Timestamps and Content Notes and Warnings per section:
0:00 Content Notes & Flashing Light Info
0:14 Cold open
1:09 how this video came to be
2:46 this video is NOT
3:23 this video IS
4:13 introducing me
4:35 The K-pop Industry and The Idol Making Process
17:30 The Music Making Process
19:48 Content Notes
- The following section will include discussions and mentions of homophobia and transphobia.
19:56 why K-pop seems 'weird' to people
24:59 Content Notes
- The following section will include discussions and mentions of eating disorders and restrictive eating.
25:08 Expand your view of Asian women
28:00 Content Notes
- The following section will include discussions and mentions of the Atlanta Spa Shootings and hate crimes against Asian Americans.
28:07 Anti-Asian Sentiment
32:36 Content Notes
- The following section will include discussions and mentions of colorism and eating disorders.
32:46 Looking “white” and beauty standards
36:17 Content Notes
- The following section will include images and mentions of blackface and cultural appropriation.
36:25 Anti-Blackness in K-pop
46:26 Appreciation?
48:03 Black K-pop Idols and Trainees
50:23 Have things gotten better?
55:45 Privilege in Fandom and Consuming K-pop
56:47 Content Notes
- The following section will include discussion and mentions of stalking, kidnapping, and harassment.
56:57 Idol culture and Stanning
1:00:13 Content Warnings
- The following section will include discussions and mentions of suicide and depression.
1:00:20 Mental Health and Suicide
1:03:34 Content Warnings
- The following section will include discussions and mentions of suicide, sexual assault, and rape.
1:03:42 K-pop is a Boy's Club
1:07:48 why i still like k-pop
- 1:08:13 the 's*x' factor' - a topic for another day
- 1:10:42 k-pop is its own thing
next video topic 1:13:35
ending credits 1:13:51
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@CheyenneLin 3 жыл бұрын
Notes: Please read the video's description. It contains important information like the sources I used to make this video, as well as timestamps to avoid for viewers with sensitivity, and timestamps for content notes and warnings.
@yazmina2031 3 жыл бұрын
This was a really great video thank you for making it ❤️
@CheyenneLin 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much Yazmina. I worked so hard on it and I’m glad you liked it 🥺✨
@lirianorga7521 3 жыл бұрын
Hi @Cheyenne Lin, please review the Thai drama Girl from Nowhere Season 1 and 2. Does it shows feminism? I want to hear your opinion as an Asian woman about this since it discusses about Therevada Buddhism philosophy. Thank you.
@m2k16 3 жыл бұрын
it is like the Football system in Europe
@msmalice6007 2 жыл бұрын
I was wondering if you would do another video on southeast asian idols in kpop since more and more are joining the industry. like while i feel that most if not all of the anti-SEA hate directed at lisa from bp came from a specific group of people with extreme hatred for her, i feel like sorn from clc has gotten consistent criticism and hate for her looks since predebut and it wasn't from a small vocal minority of haters but from a lot of general kpop fans saying these things "out of concern" or because "thats just how the industry is, she should get prettier if she wants to succeed" i remember before that if you googled her name one of the top hits was a blog post titled "how did they let this THING into kpop" people used to say she looked like a dog, that she was "fat" because she's naturally got more muscle, to the point months after her debut she apologised for not being "skinny or pretty enough" and she's often compared negatively against her other thai idols in a way that feels like they're saying thai idols like lisa or minnie are beautiful "in spite" of being thai rather than their thai-ness being why they're beautiful.
@lesbiangoddess290 3 жыл бұрын
The stalkerish vibes I get from quite alot of kpop stans is SO weird. Its invasive, possessive and overall creepy. Kpop is fun and entertaining but it shouldnt be your entire life and make the stars suffer because of your creepiness.
@QueenOfTheRandom 3 жыл бұрын
It's part of the branding and culture though, fans are not only expected to but also encouraged to obsess about their idols. We can't just blame fans, especially since so many of them are very very young.
@justinwatson1510 3 жыл бұрын
Don’t blame the fans, it’s the businesses we need to go after.
@jungkooks80dollarmattress42 3 жыл бұрын
Stalker fans are so called sasaengs
@tictacmaybeau6707 3 жыл бұрын
@@QueenOfTheRandom I think you can blame both equally. It’s not hard to distinguish right from wrong, even when being encouraged to do wrong. Just because you are being influenced by a greater wrong, it doesn’t mean your own choices and actions are without blame too. There are just as many fans who don’t stalk and harass idols/celebrities to make a case that while the company and industry culture/influence is undoubtedly toxic and bad, people should still be held accountable on an individualistic level as well.
@AikiraBeats 3 жыл бұрын
The possession portion is a lot
@nelthepisces 3 жыл бұрын
Being a black Kpop fan is hard because at times it really does feel like you're '''betraying'''' your own race by giving these companies your money. Not to mention often being silenced by non-black kpop fans when trying to speak out about the racist aspects of the industry. I can't see myself completely distancing myself from it since it is my favorite music genre but yeah, it's definitely a love/hate relationship...
@emilionema 3 жыл бұрын
so true. kpop is heavily influenced by black music. and a lot of black musician do contribute to making their music, that why I enjoy it. I'm all for seeing our culture expand. the disappointment comes from the lack of education they have towards black people and culture. these grown adults and the company aren't stupid, they are aware of everything. but they lack at taking a step to stay aware ( stereotypes, colorsim, rasicm, and appropriation). progress is being made for sure but it still problems. and most of the time they wouldnt do shit about it unless there is an outrage coming from international fans. on the other hand some fans are the toxic ones, its unbelievable.
@SADIE_Maybe_SADISTIC 3 жыл бұрын
Omg..... I’ve always felt this way..... I feel like I’m betraying my own people.........I just I can’t see myself giving up on the music......because....I just- it’s my choice to be honest...........and why should I have to give up on my own happiness..........just because of the mistakes that- well not necessary mistakes......but problems that other people do........(I’m sorry if I sound toxic!!!!!!)
@nelthepisces 3 жыл бұрын
@@SADIE_Maybe_SADISTIC no i totally get you! liking music shouldn't be so hard. it's really unfair that for some people it can be 'not that deep' while for us it's way more complicated
@pastelhotmess9299 3 жыл бұрын
@@emilionema true
@pastelhotmess9299 3 жыл бұрын
@@nelthepisces I know! This also ties back into sterotypes too. like if your're anime or something like this your "not black" which is ridculous! I really feel like this is a love hate relationship as another black fan here
@cloud3147 3 жыл бұрын
As a long term kpop fan, this video made me feel both seen and uncomfortable. I really, really appreciate all the work you did on this.
@CheyenneLin 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you 🥺
@wearepublic 3 жыл бұрын
Burning Sun is also a huge scandal that could be worth looking into if anyone wants to understand more about the prevalence of sex crimes amongst kpop ring leaders.
@wearepublic 3 жыл бұрын
ON a further note, was too excited to watch this when I realised you too seem to be an SM stan.
@cozmoclipse 3 жыл бұрын
how can i learn abt the burning sun? do u reccomend any videos or articles?
@orangeoak5319 3 жыл бұрын
@@cozmoclipse the r/Kpop subreddit actually has an amazing, comprehensive thread with information on every single person involved, whether their name was released formally or not. If the police brought them in for an interrogation, or if they were even mentioned by the news, the thread mentions them. I recommend starting there.
@kpopdisco2330 3 жыл бұрын
Tbh the fact that No one knows about what the real Burning Sun Scandal was actually, about how an man called KIM SANGKYO could harrass 4 different women in the Burning Sun Club, get kicked out of the club, have an sexual assault investigation started on him, and still have the whole world on his side because he started a whole media campaign with a made up a scandal to cover his ass. So much so that people called his victims liars despite CCTV showed the main girl was telling the truth. Then they said the video was fake or doctored. Then they said the girls were working with Burning Sun to shut the whistleblower up, but 2 of the women had already went to police a month before. Media Yellow Journalism and peoples superficial quest for justice completely ignored the truth at was right there in front of them all because the lies were sensational and a better story to fight for. I mean look now "The prevalence of sex crimes between kpop ring leaders?"
@brennathecatlover4360 2 жыл бұрын
@@kpopdisco2330 everyone just hears seungri scandal when there’s evidence to prove he wasn’t involved cuz dispatch is shit and victims said he wasn’t involved yet no one bothered to keep the same energy to people actually involved
@shanelocsin9906 3 жыл бұрын
I am not a Kpop fan however, I am working as an ESL tutor to Koreans. I remember one of my students saying that he wanted to go to Harlem in NY because he's been playing GTA for quite sometime now. He's saying that he "love" the idea of gangs, being in the hood and Black people but he doesn't want to be killed. I thought that it is a very hurtful mindset because it shows that this is how they view Black people. I really believe that everyone should move away from this stereotype for Black people. They think this is "cool" but it's not right.
@scarlet8078 3 жыл бұрын
I laughed out loud at the part of your comment about Harlem. I live in Manhattan, and most of Harlem is very much gentrified and diverse at this point. I represented a group that just bought several investment properties there, and a single home is about $2.2 million. Many units are being bought by overseas investors, largely Chinese but also European, Middle Eastern, etc. Feel free to tell your students that Harlem is home to Columbia and its famous medical school and indeed is a welcoming place for Koreans. He should visit
@tanah6962 3 жыл бұрын
I suppose they believe the glitz and the glam from a video game. That's the first issue: that they believe the video game is real. And the second issue is that if they really want to go to Harlem, they probably should research first. Things like that, to me, aren't racist. Just like plain ignorance. Hurtful, yes, but can easily be corrected.
@Misstressofdons 3 жыл бұрын
@@tanah6962 what do you think the difference between "racism" and "ignorance" is?
@s0Shi 3 жыл бұрын
@@Misstressofdons the comment wasn’t directed to me but ima say ignorance is a primary factor (state of mind, lack of knowledge/awareness) that fuels racism and other social stigmas/issues; racism itself is more of the actual “practice” like with attitudes, behaviors, discrimination, etc. Ignorance can be very harmful, but not fully equal to hate (doesn’t help to combat hate/discrimination though-gives leeway to it). Racism and social issues in general can have all sorts of issues that are harmful in different ways and levels (ofc it doesn’t just have to be obvious and pure hate to count as racism), so ignorance can extend among a ‘spectrum’ along with varying shades of racism. At the very least, someone who is ignorant but not (openly) hateful has a better chance of changing their mind and understanding the issues if you explain the problem to them There is a difference but I don’t like to give benefit of the doubt when it comes to a lack of understanding/empathy and not seeing the ultimate harm of ignorance; either way it’s important to correct and explain the issue Wow looking back at my comment this whole thing looks messy,,, I guess what I’m saying is they have different meanings and applications but go hand in hand and demonstrate the problem
@pastelhotmess9299 3 жыл бұрын
holy moly! I mean, he's on the right track, but there's lot of learning to do
@lisa.222 3 жыл бұрын
One of the things that bothered me as a black kpop fan is the refusal to admit that kpop started off of black culture. Idols and companies have admitted it. The AAVE ,the blackface, the African style braids and the ripping off of some songs. The hip hop and stuff. Iike it I do but I recently saw on KZfaq their doing a documentary on the start of kpop and what it was and what it is. And they always fail to mention the HUGE impact black culture had on it. I've observed that and it annoys me to the max because then when u show something from black culture to ignorant ppl they think that non black artisrt is being original and erase us from the equation
@flaka7086 2 жыл бұрын
The first group in kpop literally was based off of our culture,one of them even did blackface
@kennyb1588 2 жыл бұрын
This literally bothers me so much like in Itzys wannabe the one girl gets credited heavily for inventing a shoulder dance when it’s literally Ethiopian Eskista And there’s so many other examples of things like this where they “borrow” from different black cultures and then never give credit
@vunessuh 2 жыл бұрын
Yeah, early kpop was heavily influenced by black artists and the hip hop scene. I think they did briefly mention it in that youtube documentary, they just didn't expand unfortunately. All it said was "kpop was influenced by soul and jazz in the 60s, 70s, 80s" or something.Honestly kpop has taken stuff from other cultures too. Like a lot of their sounds and samples are inspired by middle eastern and indian musical systems where those types of scales originally come from, and it's not touched upon even by those videos that dissect kpop music.
@Lill2895 2 жыл бұрын
This is exactly why I don't support K-Pop and never have 🤷🏾♀️ It's blatant racism most of the time, and is only being addressed now because it has made its way into Western mainstreaming which is where a LOT of Black fans come in. And we love to call folks out but we need to be more stern in our beliefs and stop supporting a lot of these people and their negative connotations. They know better. They have entire racial slurs for us. Every place does. The internet and books and positive media is just too prominent for the level of ignorance.
@mimiandy1683 2 жыл бұрын
@@Lill2895 I am going to shake the table and shoot some shoots by saying this... In my opinion, I believe a lot of non-Korean and non-Asian people enjoy K-Pop music because of the lack of black faces in the forefront.
@charliekelly1154 3 жыл бұрын
I just watched your video on anti- blackness in Asian American, as a 52 year old Asian America man, I truly appreciate and agree with your analysis, and thank you for tackling this issues. I've been ostracised and dismissed in the Asian community for bringing up these issues for years.We need to have these difficult conversations in the Asian American community. Now because of covid we are forced to look at ourselves in the mirror. Thank you Sister you have my support. We truly need unique and important voices like yours to begin to create and define OUR OWN place in America.❤✊🏻
@Dtzeo503 3 жыл бұрын
Yes!
@s0Shi 3 жыл бұрын
Word. We gotta stand together and make our voices clear and heard ✊✨
@ima.m.1658 3 жыл бұрын
Yes! As an Asian-American, I appreciate this.
@harpocratesrose 3 жыл бұрын
Taemin and I are almost exactly the same age - he's older by 7 days. I was really into SHINee back then when they debuted, and at the time it seemed normal for him to be a star and I was very jealous. Now, as an adult, watching the clips of their stages from their Replay era, I'm struck by how young and childish he looks. They really ripped away years of his childhood when he should have been allowed to figure out who he is, and molded him in to the person they wanted him to be. A hard life indeed. I remember back then being angry, as a jealous teenager often is, that by some twist of fate he was allowed to be on stage, to reach people, and to be a star. Now, I see that I am the lucky one. I'm not sure if Taemin would make any changes if he were allowed to play his life over again, but I for one find myself fortunate that I was not in the public eye during my formative years, as he was and still is.
@pinkseonghwa 3 жыл бұрын
I think the molding really took a toll on him, especially being reduced to the ”pretty boy”. However I’m so happy for his sake that he very much seems to have come to terms with his androgony and embraced it (that white outfit in the Advice MV and with long hair again, oof). Looking back at myself (I’m a year younger) I’d never survive in the public eye either. The biggest shame is that the industry never learned (or rather willfully ignored) that they might’ve f-ed up with debuting kids, as one of the Enhypen members is currently just 15.
@WrongXNumber 3 жыл бұрын
@@pinkseonghwa I don't think he has any choice if it comes to his image - androgony sells the best on him. I think a lot about the fact that Taemin is Catholic and how he once mentioned that sometimes he doesn't feel what he shows relates to that... suggestive lyrics and his stage image, all the symbols... but as I said, the company tells him what to do.
@cynthiaanderson6410 3 жыл бұрын
And then you have groups like NCT dream and Enhypen where the members have to drop out of school. And then NCT Hollywood is happening and they’re searching for 13 year olds. And these middle schoolers are going to be moved to a different continent away from their family and with a mountain of pressure on them. Their lives are going to be televised and they’re going to be subjected to so much online hate and it’s concerning
@nm9688 2 жыл бұрын
@@WrongXNumber Taemin has a lot of input and control in many aspects of his music, from the lyrics, choreography to cinematography...have you ever heard him speak about his solo music?
@nm9688 2 жыл бұрын
I agree. He debuted way too young imo.
@WynterMourning 3 жыл бұрын
Just like the Motown system, the idol model reminds me a lot about the film industry’s “studio system.”
@rabryan 3 жыл бұрын
What's that?
@WynterMourning 3 жыл бұрын
@@rabryan MGM, Paramount, and Warner use to have a monopoly over the film industry. (30s-50s I think). And executives would often hire actresses, type cast them to build a brand, change their appearance and names. Marilyn Monroe and Judy Garland are two of the most famous examples of the studio system being exploited.
@XxCrayonSnackerxX 3 жыл бұрын
When you talked about kids I INSTANTLY thought of nct dream, I think Jisung was 11 when SM casted him. Mark was 12 or 13 when he moved from new york to korea and lived in dorms, i'm a fan but that terrifies me
@sayin234 3 жыл бұрын
I agree, I was irked by them I saw them debuting in 2017? 2016? I forgot. The concept, the color schemes, all of it looked so childlike for me, I am the same age as mark. And even though they marketed this for teenagers, the amount of sasaengs and perverted comments targeted toward the dreamies are still crazy (e.g. jeno's obsessed sasaeng, jisung's jail time gesture, etc). I've only started liking them last year and it's partly because they've matured and the cutesy vibes have died down by lots.
@bbbbbbbbbb0 3 жыл бұрын
And don't forget Taemin debuted at 14 :/
@alexisienna 3 жыл бұрын
I just don't understand how people can "love" something (kpop) so much but hate on the critizism that could improve that very thing. If you love something wouldn't you want it to be the best it can be?
@exloster9624 3 жыл бұрын
I think it's mostly young teens who get scared that the thing they really enjoy would get cancelled online if they didn't defend it and therefore they'd have to abandon it or hide that they liked it. It doesn't help that the way some people criticise is a little one the aggressive side, which only makes people more defensive rather than making them think and accept the criticism. You know?
@thisuserisfoxxy 2 жыл бұрын
I agree but sometimes the ‘criticism’ is just full of racism, homophobia etc
@BambiLena666 2 жыл бұрын
I think theres a fear of the thing changing in a way you dont want. And to be honest theres also a part of people who dont really understand how the industry and culture works. A dumb example off the top of my head, kpop fans complaining and aruing about idols not singing live anymore. Part of the reason why this changed is because the methods and insane training of first and second gen went through was criticized. Also they are worried about their fav idols getting backlash and hate, or punishment from the companies, which is why I think with criticism its really important to talk about the industry, companies and culture around it, than focusing on idols.
@SZAliaBanks 2 жыл бұрын
even outside of kpop, this applies to people who can’t hear any criticism of their fav, even respectful critiques from other fans.
@-m.s-361 2 жыл бұрын
some are just in it for the music and the people persueing their wildest dreams
@matchalatte9612 3 жыл бұрын
I used to be a hardcore Kpop stan. I started to stan EXO when I was 12 and I’m 17 now. I was so frustrated with the toxic fan culture that I had to distance myself from kpop in the past year to really examine the industry and it’s strategies, as well as the colorism, cultural appropriation etc. Although I probably won’t consider myself a Stan now, I still appreciate the all the joy Kpop brought me as a lonely teen girl. Thank you for this video essay. Also I appreciate all those clips of EXO lol.
@CheyenneLin 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for sharing your experience with K-pop! I recently got into EXO at the beginning of this year and they’ve turned into one of if not my favorite group song and performance wise 😅😬
@AikiraBeats 3 жыл бұрын
Same I started with exo and I took a break from the kpop music and I noticed the toxicity among the different groups it's a lot to take in
@sadebraimah5962 2 жыл бұрын
Girl I-. You just described me to a t😭. I started listening to k pop around the age of 11 or 12. It was such a sense of comfort for me (especially bts I used to hardcore STAN them). I grew up going to a racist ass school so I never really had friend so k pop made me feel less lonely get through my anxiety and depression. I had to stop listening because the fandoms and just the overall industry is toxic as hell. Along with the racism, colorism, cultural appropriation, etc. It also seemed like there were fan wars every week because two idols had the same haircut 😫. I listen to k pop here and there, but I think I’ve just grown up or grown out of it. It is very interesting to look back on my younger years and see how much I’ve matured and grown. I am however grateful to k pop especially bts for being there for a lonely kid. And for reference I’m 16 ik I made this sound like I just turned 30 with a mortgage 😭.
@leamubiu 3 жыл бұрын
Taemin's live wasn't correctly translated as far as the "I lived a hard life" goes. He says 열심히 (yeolshimhi =to the full, giving one's all), not 힘들게 (himdeulge =having it hard, making painful efforts). Because of the mistranslation it feels like he's sort of complaining about wasting away his youth, when in fact it sounds like he's grateful, nostalgic, and sad that things are going to change for him.
@ilianafafouti7224 2 жыл бұрын
Also in context what he said sounds very different, he was looking back and being proud of what he had achieved and he seemed quite sad that he had to stop working for a while due to the military service
@maleedeibe1766 2 жыл бұрын
First of all thanks for the translation! It makes a ton of sense. I think a lot people forget that many artist know they are artists since very young. Is just that if you are creative you need to expand it, many people that start as grown ass adults tell how they always wanted to do art. So not everything is that dark, but yes, they need work in their work ethics. Companies tend to be quite extreme and let's not even begin with how the public is very very invasive. I feel like Taemin is one of those cases, like, the man is art. And I can relate to the feelings of sadness, if even not being able to sing for a few weeks terrifies me, two whole years apart from your creativity and art... Just... Pain.
@cottonclouds 3 жыл бұрын
as a black kpop fan of now almost 6 years i often have fight with myself when it comes to my fandom and my black identity. at times, being black feels like a burden and you just wish you could ignore racism and appropriation to have a good time. why can't i just enjoy things? why must my skin color invade every aspect of my life? this video was really cathartic for me. eventhough i am aware of most of the things mentioned, i am so glad to finally see a nuanced take on an interest of mine which is often categorized as only good or bad, especially when looking at the role blackness plays within it. really thank you for this ❤
@giasas 3 жыл бұрын
Nothing is unproblematic, everything is derivative. Let's all take a deep breath and touch some grass lol ... I loved kpop when I was a teen, but I was bullied out of it. Now I'm a casual listener again and it's so nice to just be able to say I like kpop and not get dogpiled by people spewing every -ism and -phobia under the sun 😭😂 Also I love hearing someone finally have a nuanced discussion about it, so thank you for making this ! It's 10/10 imo 👍💕✨
@CheyenneLin 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks so much Gia!! Your support means a lot 🥰
@daffo595 3 жыл бұрын
It’s the same with anime huh. I never felt it because in my country it’s not that big a deal but it’s crazy to think how a few years ago it’s “cringe” to watch anime but now it’s hip and cool.
@exloster9624 3 жыл бұрын
It really do be like that. Everyone's busy policing online what you can and cannot enjoy, not even realizing all the things under the surface what they themselves enjoy daily. If we ignored literally everything that had some kind of dark side, we'd be doing nothing.
@jungkooks80dollarmattress42 3 жыл бұрын
@@daffo595 when the white guys started liking it💀
@taynaragallo 3 жыл бұрын
@@jungkooks80dollarmattress42 EXACTLY!
@MarieAnnAdae 3 жыл бұрын
As an African Kpop fan, my experience has been bittersweet... I got into Kpop early 2015 and I loved everything about it. After a few years, I realised that some of my faves did some racially insensitive things. Ironically, these kpop groups profit from and borrow elements from hip-hop and RnB, but they neglect to educate themselves on harmful black stereotypes and discrimination. I was very conflicted and it was HARD because I had to keep all those thoughts to myself. Fandoms would do anything to protect their idols and they would silence/bully black kpop stans who speak out. And my colleagues who don't even like kpop know this. They tell me, "Why would you support and admire people who wouldn't do the same for you?" I'm part of the anime community here and it's growing. But there's a reeeeaaallly small kpop fandom in Ghana, where I'm from. I keep my love for kpop to myself because people (and even the anime fans) try to ruin it for me here😅 (Comments on male kpop idols being too effeminate, the language being unfamiliar, body types being too thin, etc.) In a sense, they think I'm "betraying my own culture" by being a kpop fan. Currently, I still love kpop. Idols work hard to make it in the industry. Their music, dancing and videos still inspire me. But I remain cautious till this day. I still have hope that things will get better, though :)
@CheyenneLin 3 жыл бұрын
thank you so much for sharing Marie-Ann! It was really interesting reading about your experience with K-pop and anime as well. thanks again for sharing and hope youre doing well :)
@MarieAnnAdae 3 жыл бұрын
@@CheyenneLin Thank you too! I'm glad I got to share my thoughts on this. Weight off my shoulders 😂 Awesome video too!❤ I love it
@nyameyedanquah2317 3 жыл бұрын
I'm ghanaian too and kpop lover
@MarieAnnAdae 3 жыл бұрын
@@nyameyedanquah2317 Yayyy, nice to meet you
@Prettydiaries_rissa 3 жыл бұрын
Can your next video be about the sexualization of female "idols" (specifically the younger members and how some of the companies wait as soon as they turn 18 to start exploiting them), for example some of the concepts, outfits, and gestures they're forced into.
@realmothchu 3 жыл бұрын
that would be an interesting topic but i feel like the sexualization of male idols is often overlooked even though it is just as prevalent and egregious. some companies dont even have the decency to wait until all the members are adults to give them mature concepts/songs 🤢for example: drippin by nct dream and dive into you from i-land
@orangeoak5319 3 жыл бұрын
Some don’t even wait. Remember Tzuyu’s elevator commercial? That was when she was only 16...
@orangeoak5319 3 жыл бұрын
Some don’t even wait. Remember Tzuyu’s elevator commercial? That was when she was only 16...
@orpheus2724 3 жыл бұрын
@@realmothchu I agree, or songs like mmm by treasure which is just so not it for a group of idols largely under 18
@user-bear27 2 жыл бұрын
@@orpheus2724 didn't one of the underaged member take part in writing it?
@anpatman 3 жыл бұрын
Do a video on American Music Industry next. It's much older than korean one and has a lot of shady shit, but corporate learnt to hide it to avoid backlash. Great work as always, Cheyenne
@AndreaDiaz-rc3iy 3 жыл бұрын
Thissssss
@kiraridley8847 3 жыл бұрын
why do kpop stans always mention the American music industry whenever someone talks about how f'ed up the kpop industry is? just acknowledge how horrible the kpop industry is and go.
@Noid1220 3 жыл бұрын
@@kiraridley8847 because American media like to portray Kpop as the only problematic industry which is kind off hypocritical since it is also problematic in a lot of ways as well.
@kiraridley8847 3 жыл бұрын
@@Noid1220 American media barley recognizes kpop, y'all just can't admiting that your favs are horrible people
@cherrywatson5411 3 жыл бұрын
@@kiraridley8847 this person literally just made a recommendation for the creator of this video to make another video , and why are all Kpop stars do terrible ? Yes , there are some terrible people in the industry , but there are also some great artists
@pessoinhacansada6900 3 жыл бұрын
I'm also a casual listener, but I'm surrounded by kpopper friends, and the anti-blackness/colorism of this industry hits really sadly here on Brazil. We have a lot of skin tones, a lot of them "darker" for asians standards, and I see kids (and adults) who love these groups and are ashamed of themselves. It goes from avoiding sun (my city is on beach side, it's really sunny), buying cosmetics who bleach skin, using light shades of makeup, and editing they pics on social media to look more white. I not saying "kpop is evil blebleble" or anything, it's just that I seen other "waves" like BRITNEY spears, RBD, happening, and didn't notice something like that happening before. No, correct myself, other movements who said "pale is pretty" like gothic, emo, scene kids, ulzzang (which is also korean) cause this same effect. They're are just not so big as kpop.
@scarlet8078 3 жыл бұрын
This is sad to hear. All skintones should be praised. In reality, not all glorification of paleness is intended as anti-blackness, so it's unfortunate that it is perceived that way & has such negative effects on young people. Staying out of the sun is GOOD, though, & will help keep skin looking younger longer, regardless of color. We hear a lot now about paleness being prized for Eurocentric beauty standards, and certainly that's part of the proliferation today, but that's not the origin. Fair unblemished skin has been prized since caveman times in cultures around the world. The reason is because FAIRNESS = YOUTH (at least prior to plastic surgery), and youth has always been valued and considered beautiful. The same is true with light, straight hair. Hair tends to darken and get curlier and grow more slowly as people age, so fine, straight light hair has historically been sought after.
@oliviac295 3 жыл бұрын
I think there is a eurocentric influence to the desire for pale skin, but I don't think that's the full story, especially since it is common in many incredibly homogenous countries like Korea. There are class reasons for it, like people who have to labour under the sun are more tanned, therefore pale skin indicated you were richer. Or maybe it's just the appeal of being 'unblemished'. It's crazy because I live in Australia and I sometimes feel like I'm too white and I don't tan, and in other parts of the world people think the opposite. It shows how ridiculous beauty standards are. ALL skin colours are beautiful and deserve to be appreciated, because it's a part of who you are, where you came from, and not something that needs to be altered. And at the same time, skin tone shouldn't define someone's worth or what they are able to accomplish.
@giovannasouza2030 3 жыл бұрын
Realmente, é muito triste de se ver isso, também tenho muitos/as/es amigos/as/ues que são afetados nesse quesito (o que obviamente acabou gerando-os muitas inseguranças...)
@pessoinhacansada6900 3 жыл бұрын
@@giovannasouza2030 Simmm! Eu fico muito triste porque eu nem sei o que dizer para fazer a pessoa se sentir melhor.
@pessoinhacansada6900 3 жыл бұрын
@@scarlet8078 Sorry but "hair tends to darker " when hair literally goes white because it loses its melanin due to a slow pace in cellular's metabolism? Where do you find that info? (I'm not picking fights, it's just very inaccurate)
@naominandn6509 3 жыл бұрын
I wish you had talked about Tasha/ Yoon Mi Rae when you spoke about black pop idols! She is one of a few korean musicians that I can think of off the top of my head who are black as well as ethnically Korean (Yoon Mi Rae is half black american and half korean). She's not an idol per say right now i would say she's sort of graduated from being an idol. She started off as a rapper and now mostly makes osts for dramas as well as running an agency with her husband and fellow tiger jk. She has a song called Black Happiness where she speaks about the colourism she has faced, her love for her blackness and the struggles of being black and korean working in korea.
@kclarke421 3 жыл бұрын
Finally someone else who knows if her 😌💕
@Sayu_rinrin 3 жыл бұрын
The only idol who leave SM “peacefully” was Tiffany 😬... Jessica and JYJ (former DBSK members) are still unable to promote songs in Korean music shows due to SM’s influence in the main broadcast channels.
@richiestephanie1852 2 жыл бұрын
Dam they blackball in kpop too wow!
@hnb.mertonna 3 жыл бұрын
I really admire the work you put into this video. I honestly wasn't expecting you to take things any further than anti-blackness, but you talked about colorism and cultural appropriation as well. (alongside so many other topics!) A lot of my friends are really into k-pop, but I'm a very casual enjoyer. I only know a handful of groups, and I have a few songs in my playlist but that's about it. I think this is just because the idea of keeping up with bands and/or groups seems kinda tiring to me but that's besides the point. I think another thing that pushed me a little farther away from k-pop was how anti-black the fandom itself is. I remember seeing a black fan make a thread of all the harassment she received essentially just for existing and it honestly terrified me. A part of me was almost glad I never bothered get in too deep. That's not to dig at any black people who love k-pop, I know quite a few but I personally don't think I'd be able to deal with it (especially on twitter lol). This turned into quite a ramble, but I never comment so I just wanted to say I love your videos Cheyenne! When I first found your channel (pretty recently too) I binged through so many of your video essays. Just hearing your thoughts on different topics is nice and I love listening to you talk! Can't wait for your video in June! Please rest up, this was a long one!
@orangeoak5319 3 жыл бұрын
I honestly can’t imagine how tiring it must be to be a black fan of Kpop... not only do they have to deal with disrespect from within the industry, but they also have to deal with being shouted down by non-black fans CONSTANTLY because they’re so worried about their idols’ reputations being hurt...
@hnb.mertonna 3 жыл бұрын
@@orangeoak5319 Yeah, basically! I could go on about the garbage we face for calling things out but I'm honestly too tired 😅 It stings even more knowing that the k-pop industry isn't so different from everywhere else. Celebs in the U.S. get caught red-handed doing borderline blackface and people (not even fans either??) will still rush to defend them. Thanks for the reply btw! I know allies are out there but it's nice to actually interact with y'all when I can.
@xLittleBirdx 3 жыл бұрын
I'm always anxious when I see a video like this, cause I'm really afraid of feeling bad for liking something that is literally helping trough the worst years of my life.
@orangeoak5319 3 жыл бұрын
It’s okay to like problematic things and people, but you need to acknowledge its problematic aspects and keep them in mind when consuming that content. And you need to be ok with the fact that other people won’t like that thing and may judge you for liking it.
@Homodemon 2 жыл бұрын
Aw boohoo...
@saffronscarlett1445 3 жыл бұрын
Apart from the idol training process, the korean music industry and the american one don’t seem that different
@exloster9624 3 жыл бұрын
Mm. The industry for sure isn't all that much better in America, but ppl always like to focus on the one that seems worse from first glance.
@sabinamohan2415 3 жыл бұрын
I think there are two major differences between the western music industry vs. Korean music industry: 1. Rights-American artists have far more rights in terms of lawsuits and the company standing behind them when fans get out of line. U.S laws protect both private citizens and artists from stalkers. They're allowed to date, look over their contract and as they make more money they get to 2. Power-with more money they get more control over every aspect of their image and life and can also go to other recording labels or create their own. And have more influence and sympathy from fans. Also get paid way more than kpop stars. While there have been Kpop artists who have created their own labels, it is only after years later when they aren't necessarily relevant. And if a scandal occurs, zealous kpop fans and labels will shun them and the artist suffers major backlash from the industry. So big kpop companies still hold the most power over a kpop artist image and money.
@m.s5598 3 жыл бұрын
There’s much more diversity in America and ignorance is called out.
@puca3569 3 жыл бұрын
@@sabinamohan2415 I don't know if companies holding significantly more power can be considered a Kpop industry thing only considering Taylor Swift's and Scooter Braun's very lengthy lawsuit. Taylor is a big artist (with a huge amount of fan support) with a lot of money, and those may be the only advantages that helped her win that lawsuit. So I would reasonably presume that other smaller artists with less social and financial power might be caught under the same institutional structure that limits the artists' rights.
@lansc 3 жыл бұрын
@@m.s5598 @M. S You do know South Korea is a homogeneous country right ... Also no, ignorance in the US is definitely not consistently called out, as a matter of fact I have never seen a Western artist (black or white) apologise or address the issue of Asian CA for example (and we all know they've been doing it for decades). Ofc that is NOT saying that kpop shouldn't educate itself on these issues, but I'm just saying America isn't as woke as you think it is.
@naominandn6509 3 жыл бұрын
My heart still breaks for both Sulli and Jonghyun. SM really should be put to task for not providing for their artists especially in the case of mental health. I know its not their "fault" exactly but the company should be held accountable for the part they played or didn't play in getting their performers the help they obviously needed. It makes me worry for the young trainees and performers they're constantly taking on as well as the established idols. No one can escape from mental health issues and as an agency that mainly produces celebrities who are constantly on the receiving end of an endless stream of critique and, in more severe cases, harassment i feel they need to take more responsibility for the safety of their workers. tbh i think the reason a lot of these agencies don't bother themselves with providing these resources for these idols is because the whole system is corrupt and exploitative by design and in order to actually create healthy safe working spaces for these performers they would have to turn the entire industry on its head
@morallyflexiblesapphic7287 3 жыл бұрын
A highly anticipated video that absolutely failed to dissapoint me. Cheyenne knew you'd come through!
@CheyenneLin 3 жыл бұрын
😉😉
@lesbiangoddess290 3 жыл бұрын
I completely agree
@monimuppet6132 3 жыл бұрын
Your vid is excellent, you highlighted MANY things that often get glossed over in other vids on this topic. I particularly loved when you pointed out how typically Black hairstyles and dress are designated to very specific spaces. Yet the defense for this is often "it's just hair" or "it fit the vibe". Ok, then why doesn't it fit the vibe in interviews and on the red carpet? You can't tell me it isn't a costume when you are literally using it in one particular space - just as one would a costume. Thank you so much for being very clear on that point.
@CheyenneLin 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for your support and I’m glad my points came across clearly 🙏✨
@mimiandy1683 2 жыл бұрын
🙏🏿🙏🏿🙏🏿 Thank you for bringing this up!!!🙏🏿🙏🏿🙏🏿 In KPop videos, I rarely see idols wearing cornrows, locks or any other black hairstyle, when they're promoting a romantic song. Or, when they want to portray themselves as "soft and vulnerable" or "sensual seduction". The only time I see braided hairstyles and locks adorning their heads were when they wanted to portray themselves as tough, a bad-ass or as being "hood". Of course, the defense is "They're imitating rappers from hip-hop videos..." But they should, after a while, realize these hairstyles are just a part of their day-to-day life and not a prop for a music video. It is a part of their physical maintenance.
@boobysr 3 жыл бұрын
This was so thorough and eloquent. I attributed the racism and appropriation to the entire industry and fandom, because that was about the only exposure i've had towards kpop. I'm still skeptical about consuming it, but you've shed a lot of necessary light on it that makes me more sympathetic towards fans and kpop artists. The whole section about asian stereotypes when outsiders approach kpop was very illuminating too. Love your channel! Keep up the good work and i hope this video makes you blow up!
@leandrabarros3582 3 жыл бұрын
I remember when the producer of NCT's BOSS called out SM for not giving her the payment for her work and not responding her emails for months. Cha Cha Malone is my favorite producer and he did many songs for SM as well but they never gave him credit on platforms like Spotify that you can see who worked on the song, who produced, who write it etc. They had done on physical releases sure, but you don't get to really know about who helps to make the art we admire so much if we don't are willing so really search about it.
@wheretao6960 3 жыл бұрын
Tysm for pulling the words right out of my mouth regarding kpop and the industry as a whole. Right now my relationship with kpop is nothing more than a casual listener, and kpop is merely another form of entertainment for me, not a lifestyle or anything of that sort. It is very easy for young and impressionable fans to engage in stan behavior, including me back when I started listening to kpop and got deep into it. But after being faced with the reality of it and after taking a step back and researching on the whole marketing system of kpop, I realized that it actually encourages obsessive + parasocial behaviors and even fanwars (such as through all those notorious voting apps so that your fave gets an actual award) at the expense of an artist's or a group's autonomy and image. Anyways, good job on the video! Although I have been aware of most of these issues, I absolutely loved the presentation of it. And I'm pretty sure this video would be eye opening to many.
@CheyenneLin 3 жыл бұрын
thank you so much felix! :D yeah im in the same boat with you. cannot get into the fandom, but i still listen to the music pretty regularly and draw fan art T.T cant help myself haha
@stepahead5944 3 жыл бұрын
Yes! So much nuance, especially when acknowledging the background roles, deep influence of Black American culture, as well as the simultaneously flippant anti-blackness in kpop. So many people are quick to make excuses and attack rather than reevaluating their own complicity in these things. Black fans have been saying so forever but are often gaslighted. Yet this is important for all of us.
@scarlet8078 3 жыл бұрын
Hearing about the training of the kpop stars always amazes me. I was a gymnast when young and trained several hours per day with a gym that had several Olympic hopefuls. Still, nobody trained 14hr/ day, even if we add dance, tutoring, etc. This is not because US is lenient; it's because the scientific research currently accepted here holds the # hours of rest & sleep are MORE important to increasing skills than the # hours spent training. Even for artists this is true. I think the kpop schools would benefit from accepting this research & training ~ 10hr/ day.
@silynita 3 жыл бұрын
I'm Asian and some countries like Japan, China, and Korea are workaholics. Not for nothing though since they are some of the leading economies here. I come from the other spectrum though, the chill ones.
@mimiandy1683 2 жыл бұрын
And people wonder why some of these idols lip-sync during live performances. Shit, they're tired and probably out-of-breath. Lack of proper sleep. Add-in the shitty diets. Then add-in the ongoing choreo... Singing live would be the rotten cherry on a shit-sundae for them.
@kittykittybangbang9367 2 жыл бұрын
@@mimiandy1683 What's worse is that there are videos on YT that show Kpop Idols actually fainting on stage. And I've even heard that sometimes Kpop idols are sometimes starved in order to look skinnier.
@Mokoniki 3 жыл бұрын
Great video Cheyenne! Your research was thorough and well done to me personally. You touched upon so many topics that are brought up inside and outside the K-Pop sphere. I tend to ignore a lot of videos that touch upon K-Pop because I feel like there's no nuance to the videos and there's a lot of guilt-tripping and confirmation bias within those videos. But I knew you would come through with a great video! I would definitely recommend people watch this video for a quick overview of things that have happened in K-Pop and gain an understanding of why people like or don't like it, its problematic elements, and that even if it is problematic it's okay to still like it as long as you have an understanding of why it's problematic and you don't defend it. Thanks for working so hard on it and enjoy your break Cheyenne!
@CheyenneLin 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much!! I worked so hard on this video for the past few months and it means a lot that my ideas were able to shine through and that it was an engaging and thorough breakdown. Thanks for commenting and supporting my work and I'll def be enjoying my break :)!
@rheasummer5806 3 жыл бұрын
I see them use my culture as an 'aesthetic' (I'm bengali) and it's really annoying cause there's no appreciation.
@Misstressofdons 3 жыл бұрын
Where? (I'm Bengali too and curious lol)
@kclarke421 3 жыл бұрын
I don't know that country Is it near India? Indonesia??
@nazraislam4307 3 жыл бұрын
@@kclarke421 lol it’s not a country they might've meant they're bangladeshi or somone of bengali descent and also people from kolkata are literally all bengalis
@nehadhurwey503 2 жыл бұрын
@@kclarke421 in india.
@blue.orangeade 2 жыл бұрын
For sure. Racism towards South Asian people and their cultures is completely ignored, including in the kpop industry, because everyone can laugh at racist jokes where South Asian people are the butt of the joke. Its disgusting.
@minsugaybby 3 жыл бұрын
thank you for making this video, I enjoy kpop, and I very commonly call out the things wrong with the industry, and I only ever see kpop stans do It properly when non-kpop stans do, it usually very guilt trippy and overall just bashing kpop stans rather than focusing not he issues they are supposed to be calling out. so once again thank you
@1745.keytel 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for this video! It is really nice to hear you talk about these important topics in K-pop and pop culture in general. As a black K-pop lover, I really try my hardest to enjoy K-pop despite all the appropriation and negatives within the industry. I am so emotionally attached to K-pop that when I find that my fav has done something I break down and cry. I have a really hard time dealing with my mental health issues, so I use K-pop (along with other forms of art and expression) to cope with that. I view K-pop as part of my daily life, because K-pop is music and music is my life. I have been into K-pop for 3 years and I feel like it has introduced me to so many amazing things I never knew about. I'm learning a new language because of K-pop, I am looking into different cultures, and I am also connecting with others thanks to it. Kpop is Music. and Music is my life. I am so passionate about K-pop that I can't keep quiet about it. It goes beyond the 'idols' within it, but the people and the hard work put in to create an art I enjoy. I know I am a black woman who lives in America who doesn't have to be so invested in something that isn't my culture, but I still love K-pop and I enjoy learning about Korean culture and language and hopefully more people in our world can see that we can enjoy it because it is music and art. Labeling it as "just K-pop" is making it sound like its less than what it is. (Sorry this is so long I really like your video) 😁😁😁✨✨✨
@MissRG_THFC 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for this! As a generation 2 and 2.5 black former kpop fan this was great! I now only mainly listen to SHINee and enjoy Taemin’s solo work the most (so appreciated all the clips you have of him in this video! Lol). But I still follow the major labels KZfaq and Twitter accounts to see if something tickles my fancy. Also, I enjoyed the music clips too, had me dancing like I was in the club!
@CheyenneLin 3 жыл бұрын
Hahaha yeah I really like Taemin’s solo work too for the most part and think that his trajectory in the entertainment industry is interesting since he was so young when he started out. And I’m glad you liked the music clips! I didn’t use as many as I thought I would 😅
@MissRG_THFC 3 жыл бұрын
@@CheyenneLin I’m going to miss his work and his membership in SHINee while he is away, but I’m going to just enjoy all his old stuff until he’s back! The amount of music used for the video was perfect! Also, I’ve watched so many other kpop breakdowns, so I was surprised how much I enjoyed your take on it! Didn’t feel like an hour long video. Thanks for your content and have a nice break! 😊
@lyzerchoi 3 жыл бұрын
as a shawol i am so incredibly pleased with the amount of shinee in this video, it’s a very rare occurrence to see them used so much as examples lol. thank you! and of course, so much respect for the effort you put into this too! even though you’ve been on a kpop hiatus, this has been incredibly well researched and it feels like you never left. oftentimes people see the glamour of kpop idols, but on the flip side many young adults are having their dreams crushed with no preparation for normal adult life bcos they spent their adolescence training. it does concern me that many of them have to start at square 1 again as they probably missed out on a lot of school and essentially have no plan b when their idol careers fall through.
@aisubekibungo 3 жыл бұрын
I really appreciate this video just with how thorough and nuanced it is. I feel like whenever there’s a discussion about KPop and racism, a lot of people act like both sides can’t exist. When the reality is that people can be racist to kpop idols because of prejudices against asian people AND KPop idols can be racist when they capitalize off of and mock Black culture. And there’s nothing wrong with both those takes existing at the same time. It just matters what you do with them.
@Ana-yh8ek 3 жыл бұрын
OMG 1 HOUR LONG TAKE MY HEART, IT'S YOURS --> 😌❤️
@victoriafedumenti1941 3 жыл бұрын
This is a product of lots of hard work and it shows! It always amazes me how much dedication you put in your videos and analysis! It always bothered me that many mangas and animes about j-pop idols tend to defend companies feeding fan's unhealthy obssessions as part of the business and the latter as a healthy behaviour - that artists have to keep an attitude that won't disappoint the people they are inspiring, even when it negatively affects their personal lives. I was never very familiar with k-pop but i have friends that are listeners of the genre for many years, so it is nice to see such in-depth study of this world they're so fascinated by, the artists more humanized and that things are changing. I hope that the korean and japanese entertainment industry will allow artists to live as people, without being an archetype for perfection, and will protect their privacy and lives from obssessed followers. Thank you for sharing the video and this knowledge with us!
@dontmintme 3 жыл бұрын
I've been into KPOP for almost 6 years and really appreciated this essay. Finally a video that manages to highlight both good and bad sides of the industry and doesn't simply ignorantly trash it!
@lailamonadi5630 3 жыл бұрын
This has to be the best and most well put together on Kpop that I’ve seen. Every other video in this fashion only seems to talk about the negative aspects of Kpop,(which are VERY important to talk about don’t get me wrong) but at the same time, I think it’s important to understand the point of view of people who do like it and how Kpop get unfairly pitted against as well. Kpop is , like the title states, nuanced. It’s a complicated issue that’s neither good nor bad, and frankly, purely portraying it as solely either or is diminishing. People should know the full picture and I’m glad you were able to bring that to light. This was an amazing video and you did a great job!
@anonymouse7773 3 жыл бұрын
I love how Cheyenne is so direct and unapologetic in the way she speaks and makes important points, it's just so refreshing to hear :()❤
@estrellasjournal 3 жыл бұрын
we appreciate you sharing your perspective. I’m also a casual listener and have realized that it can feed into Asian fetishism but there’s negative things with everything so kpop is simply not an exception.
@mercygrace6654 3 жыл бұрын
@26:10 Asian women who generally look younger than they actually are in their adult years 😔🤜 _*sexualisation and fetishation by old creepy men and society*_🤛🏿😔Black women who generally look older than they actually are in their younger years Just leave women alone for god's sake. The issues are sadly two sides of the same coin. We gotta help each other out! Including our sisters of other ethnicities! (And yes, caucasian women as well)
@conversationalnina8521 3 жыл бұрын
This was really great. As an old lady K-Pop fan, I got into it because I love the dancing and challenge myself to be as good as them. Not going to happen. Every time you brought a subject up that I wanted to chime in about - you hit the pros and cons on the nail. On my short lived channel I tried to get conversations rolling on everything you tackled in little over an hour. BRAVO! Now if we can only figure out how to live and work together for a better world - well, I guess that would be like heaven. Thanks again and enjoy your break. BTW: I don't explain to friends and family why I love it anymore - to each his own.
@deanneb6925 3 жыл бұрын
Great video as always. Kpop is a cultural juggernaut, and it’s incredibly complex as well. I will say, at least *part* of the reason Korean people don’t want to get tan is because the sun causes roughly 90% of photoaging. Don’t get me wrong, colorism is still a massive problem there, but it also has to do with their extreme interest in skincare and skin health. Tanning = skin damage, so that’s at least part of why they avoid it. The worst of their colorism shows when idols talk about other members who are naturally tan. They’ll make comments, saying that they’re “so dark that you can’t see them at night” and rude shit like that 😐
@floralnori 3 жыл бұрын
You should be proud of this essay. The care and thought you put into shines through. I hope you enjoy your vacation. You deserve it.
@CheyenneLin 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you!
@heather-ks8st 3 жыл бұрын
I appreciate the effort you put into your videos so much thank you!
@CheyenneLin 3 жыл бұрын
I’m glad you liked it! And thanks so much for watching 😊
@naeemakhan604 3 жыл бұрын
I first came across K-pop back in 2015 during one of the lowest points in my life and it sucked me in. It took me a few months to find the dark underbelly of the industry. It was (and still is) very difficult for me to consume this music knowing what most likely happens behind the scenes. But I can not deny that I do like it. I have struggled to make peace with my attraction to it for 6 years, trying to explain and justify it to my friends who just don't see it. Your video has given language to this indescribable feeling of mine. So, thank you for that, Cheyenne. You deserve that break.
@moonlace1560 3 жыл бұрын
an hour and fifteen minute vid about kpop by one of the best video essay makers on youtube? I'm so ready lemme grab my popcorn
@CheyenneLin 3 жыл бұрын
💞💞
@squickicka 2 жыл бұрын
One other thing I want to tag onto the bit about anti-Blackness and how non-Black fans act like it's asking too much of idols to be more conscious of their anti-Blackness is that... there are Black people in South Korea. I know there's not a huge population, but even in terms of idols, some very prominent ones are Black or half Black. Insooni is a well known singer with a 40+ year career, and she's half black. Yoon Mirae is one of the most respected female rappers in South Korea (and is often mimicked and idolized by upcoming female rappers) and she's half Black. Michelle Lee is also half Black and though she didn't get to debut, she was signed to YG Entertainment and has since released solo music. And of course there's Han Hyun Min who is a very well known Korean-Nigerian model, actor, and TV personality. So it's just really weird and shows how people have a very narrow view of South Korea's own diversity (read: infantalization) when non-Black international fans act like learning to be respectful of Black culture is not only too demanding, but also just not relevant to Korean people.
@HTKDblackbelt 3 жыл бұрын
I’ve never listened to kpop, but if Cheyenne posts a 1 hour and 15 minute video about it, I will watch!
@CheyenneLin 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you!! 🥺
@carolinea6769 3 жыл бұрын
I am not a K-pop fan by any means, but a lot of the fan spaces I engage with happen to have a lot of K-pop fans in them. So as a complete outsider, this was an incredibly informative breakdown of the genre and the industry behind its global success. I especially appreciate the comparisons you drew to music from the 1960s such as Motown and the whole British Boy Band craze because I can definitely see a lot of parallels. A lot of the issues you addressed, such as cultural appropriation, impossible beauty standards, exploitative business practices, anti-blackness, anti-femme/anti-androgyny, homophobia, etc. etc. are definitely prevalent in the music industry at large (probably in most entertainment industries and even other industries, too), but this was a really interesting case study of how they operate in the world of K-pop. Thank you for your hard work!
@AlexAzureOtaku 3 жыл бұрын
A lot of us discovered k-pop around our teen years and got shamed out of openly loving it or was disillusioned with the products because of the reasons you stated in the video. As someone who has once again found themselves gravitating back towards k-pop as a (hopefully) wiser adult, this take was very relatable. It's flawed but that doesn't take away from the art sometimes. I have utmost respect towards the amount of work and manpower going into a single 7 minute music video and this video makes me have a more nuanced appreciation of the genre.
@INSULLIN 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you. This reflected soooo accurately the way I experience my love for kpop bc i just love the visuals and the music, especially exo (they are just... on another level, I've been a fan of them since 2013 and I guess i just never left the fandom bc they always release truly good music and concepts). I was also a fan of f(x) and sulli has been one of the women I admire the most since i was a teenager and when I heard the news about her I was completely heartbroken and angry bc as a fan I saw everything she went through. Being a fan of kpop while at the same time growing up from my teen years to adulthood has been an experience bc you see what goes on regarding all these issues but at the same time you are like :// bc you like the artistry and the aesthetic. So thanks for making this video because it's really important we acknowledge all of this from a critical yet not scandalous(? point of view. On a bright note, yes I also love bambi and love shot as much as you seem to judging from the amount of times you referenced them lmao.
@ClayMastah344 3 жыл бұрын
I quit liking Kpop due to the amount of racism amongst the companies, the celebs, and the fandoms. life is too short for that shit
@TrixTasha 3 жыл бұрын
This video was extremely well made and touched on every nuanced issue in kpop while also not shaming people for liking the genre. I wish I could give this 100 thumbs up, great job!!
@CheyenneLin 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much 💓💓💓
@firstlast8982 2 жыл бұрын
as a non-black kpop fan ive always struggled with the guilt that comes with seeing all the culture appropriation and anti-blackness or colorism especially when it comes to some of my favorite groups. id like to think that im an avid ally which is why i often struggle with the question of when is it okay to forgive or move past their actions? at what point do i have to say that its too much and that i cant support them anymore because of what theyve done? ive always thought this way in regards to cancel culture but the feeling is especially evident when it comes to kpop. as a non-black kpop fan i feel like its not my place to decide whats "forgivable" and what isnt and i always have a constant sense of guilt in the back of my mind because of it. the why i still like kpop section was kind of comforting in this sense, so thank you. :)
@sharkofjoy 3 жыл бұрын
When Hyolyn launched Dally, I immediately searched & saw the choreographer was Aliyah Janell, because it was unusually good and the backup dancers were unusually talented. I was surprised, and pleased to discover for the first time a clear sign of collaboration and respect for a black artist by a kpop artist. I know there was a whole thing about that dance, but I know nothing about kpop, I just listen to the music and happened to watch that one video while searching for new music and loved it! I learned a lot watching this and it helped explain a lot of the discomfort I feel around kpop culture.
@tiffytiffamanda1217 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for this video! This is the first time watching a video created by you. I recently got into KPOP (February). I personally enjoy it, and it has been great being that I am over mainstream American music. Thank you for touching on the subjects you did and presenting them in the way you did. I agree with the majority of black K-pop fans in the comment section. I will continue to listen and probably go to concerts if that is ever a thing again. Thank you for the video. This felt like a great introductory class, lol
@CheyenneLin 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for watching!! I hope you get to go to a concert once things are safe :)
@HeiressOfLoganbeeren 3 жыл бұрын
And the whole thing is captioned, too? Can't wait to watch the whole thimg!
@megano2525 3 жыл бұрын
Incredibly researched, thorough, nuanced AF!!!! I really love this as a former k-pop/j-pop/vocaloid fan coming to terms with all the icky things about my faves but still listening cause they make me happy. Thanks for all the work you do and I'm so happy to see your channel grow, u deserve it!!
@poppysilk365 3 жыл бұрын
I’ve recently got into this whole Kpop world b/c of quarantine. They formulate these idols so well that you just can’t stop thinking about Kpop. It gets you sucked into that world. However, I started noticing the ugly things in that industry but have never had enough brain power to put all of these concerns together. Thank you for this video. I felt a sigh of relief b/c these are problems I want to talk about but I always feel like it’s still taboo to find imperfections in a perfect industry. It is a well thought out video and your hard work has paid off b/c this is the best video I’ve seen that talks about Kpop as a whole.
@sayidahwoods8350 3 жыл бұрын
I really do enjoy your outlook on the industry! I felt guilty for liking K-Pop early on, but now I think it is something where you have to accept the good and work towards fixing the bad. Thank you for this video & your perspective! :)
@VivianStreet 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for making this comprehensive and nuanced video! I'm a casual kpop fan and knew about some of the problems in the industry, the fandoms, and western responses to kpop, but I'd learned all of it in bits and pieces. This is important information for both fans and non-fans to know!
@teenprez 3 жыл бұрын
"Tell Me What To Do" in your playlist. 😍Thanks for another excellent video that you obviously put a ton of work into! You found and pulled some really interesting sources and statements/comments from idols that I had not seen before to illustrate your points. I hope you get a lot of rest and relaxation from your break. I'm gonna go watch Taemin's Beyond Live now.
@maddie.bolland.7 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for making this video! It's so eloquent, nuanced, and incredibly well put together. It's evident that you worked so hard to make it! I've been wanting to educate myself more about this topic for a while, and I feel much better informed after watching this. You've given me a lot to think about and I appreciate it so much! The conversations regarding anti-blackness, colourism, heteronormativity, transantagomism, and more are so meaningful and I am deeply appreciative that you did so much work to call attention to them, and to better inform fans to advocate against these oppressive systems of power. I also appreciate that you recognized it's alright to still love Kpop, and some of the positive aspects of it. I started loving BTS in 2020 and they've brought me so much joy since! 💜Thank you again :)
@linadeutsch8935 4 ай бұрын
Happy 2024! Loved the video. Thank you. Love from Germany
@LightGlyphRasengan 3 жыл бұрын
This really opened up my eyes to the behind the scenes of k-pop origins and culture, great job on the video!!
@ns3278 2 жыл бұрын
thank you for captioning the video!! it's a lot of work for such a long video but it's definitely appreciated :)
@josefaharrison 2 жыл бұрын
The "idol" and visual shit are the main problems on kpop, this bands are only popular if those 2 words exist, music is last thing that matters, which is sad because many bands have talented musicians. More than half of your video is about that, aesthetics, which proves that kpop is mostly about that. I thank you for bringing that on the table, its something that many followers of this gender haven´t realized, and causes the many problems kpop have, as an industry. thanks again! great video.
@luluscrooge3891 6 ай бұрын
Absolutely HATE the words "idol" and "visual". Like what the fck, you're known in the group for being pretty? Tf.
@gahye0nie 3 жыл бұрын
as someone who's been a kpop fan for almost a decade i totally agree w all the sentiments in this video and while i wasn't expecting any less than a great, nuanced perspective on the topic, i was really impressed by how much work was put into this! i think that there's a growing sentiment amongst kpop fans in the last few years to view it in a more critical light, which was something i didn't see a lot of when i first got into it. like you said in the video, kpop becoming more global i think is putting some pressure on kpop companies to not do shitty things esp involving racism. i also think w the globalization of kpop that a lot more girl groups are getting known and getting sizeable fanbases because of the increased demand for it over here. i see a lot more girl groups that are either renewing their contracts or very likely to compared to the groups who were on their way out when i got into kpop. it gives groups who may want to debut with less korean-gp friendly concepts a chance to have their niche and still be profitable.
@SE-gs6gd 3 жыл бұрын
Gosh I remember Taemin saying that about not wanting to get too tanned and I was a little sad but I still love him as an artist
@rudetuesday 3 жыл бұрын
This is well-balanced and worth watching. I've been listening to newer K-Pop here and there, after leaving off when Baby V.O.X. and H.O.T. were blowing up. The fandom toxicity was off the charts, and I couldn't enjoy the groups anymore, especially since members seemed unhappy.
@mahnoorkhan7601 3 жыл бұрын
@Cheyenne Lin I agreed with all of the things that you said except that you left a few key things about Onew's sexual harassment scandal like how drunk he actually was. He was drunk enough that he was not able to answer the police officer's questions and the day after, he completely forgot what happened last night. There were two times Onew accidently touched the victim. The first was at around 6:30 am, which is when Onew started to lose his balance and started to fall near his table where he grabbed the victim leg. She understandingly became mad at him for touching her (I know that I would be mad too). The second time was around 6:50 am, Onew had trouble standing so he tried to sit down on the platform connected to his table and grabbed the victim's leg again. According to the Club's manager, the victim was dancing on the platform connected to Onew's table so that's why they kept on bumping into each other. Another witness said that he thinks that Onew thought her leg was a column of some sort because of how drunk he was. Honestly speaking, Onew shouldn't have been drinking to the point where he couldn't even stand up and his friends should have stopped him from drinking when they saw how intoxicated he was getting. I got my info from www.koreaboo.com/stories/dispatch-exposes-full-story-behind-onews-sexual-harassment-charge/
@starxmon 3 жыл бұрын
now THIS is how you make a video essay on kpop - well done !!! alot of the kpop video essays i've come across recently come off as hollow and lifeless - that repeat the same points over and over again while being completely biased - this one was definitely one of the first that touched on anti blackness and also how non east asian people treat kpop as something weird while looking down on them. i've been into kpop for 6 years now so i appreciate you approaching kpop with respect while also being rightfully critical. In the future if you ever want to expand on this topic - i feel you could also mention the appropriation of native american and desi culture, and how literally no one seems to care like at all. Like there is the kpop girl group Dreamcatcher who's whole concept is racist but no one cares and they are still profiting of it to this day. Also there's also the bullying scandals in kpop like AOA and April - and how fans are so blinded by their love for their idols that they treat the victims like crap. Mina from AOA still is struggling to this day especially since AOA's fans are still calling her a liar for trying to stand up for herself. As for the positives, one thing i wish people would talk more about is that it's possible to love kpop idols not just because they are pretty people or because you are attracted to them. Sure people like Taemin and Baekyun as pretty to look at it, but it's also their personalities, hard work and talent that makes an idol or group worth stanning and supporting in the long run. Like my ult bias is Wonho from Monsta X, and yes he is a handsome man but he's so supportive of LGBT rights and genuinely loves to interact with the fans while making great music. That man was wrongfully kicked out from his group due to a false rumour, but fans petioned hard to bring him back and to let him know that he is loved. Kpop fans get a bad rep for being obsessive creepy stalkers and yes those people do exist (which we call sasaengs) but liking an idol and supporting them is just as normal as let's say someone being a fan of The Beatles or Billie Eilish.
@baolam8151 3 жыл бұрын
Can you elaborate on why Dreamcatcher’s concept is racist?
@starxmon 3 жыл бұрын
@@baolam8151 hopefully this will help clear it up twitter.com/kiIlgon/status/1282491689949593602?s=19
@loreen1340 3 жыл бұрын
I know very little about kpop and I feel like this was a very reasonable, informative and even-handed take. Thank you so much!!
@lenroz 3 жыл бұрын
Omg thank you so much for this video! Already know it's going to be great
@fayelawless2625 3 жыл бұрын
wow!!! this turned out incredible! also the curtains+lighting are A+++!
@CheyenneLin 3 жыл бұрын
💞💞💞
@deekay13 2 жыл бұрын
Wow! Much respect for the amount of work you put into this.
@BambiLena666 2 жыл бұрын
This video went through a LOT. A maybe silly gripe, I really dislike the suicides being reduced to ''fan hate''. Its so reductive to the problems they face and the cultural not only dismissal but obvious distain even form professionals towards stress and mental illness in general. Im a psychologist, in training for psychotherapy and have struggled with depression, I guess thats why this gets to me so much. Im familiar with Jonghyuns story and the fact that according to what he said he recevied effectively 0 treatment and help from professionals gets me boiling. How the company and people around him treated his illness even though he was super open about it is baffling. The hate is absurd levels and its really bad, im not saying its not, but I think the conversation has to be bigger if any help is going to happen in the future. I think being angry at random people spouting hate online is a cozy blanket for everyone, because its easier than talking about the wider scope of the issues, and not to mention its amazing for companies involved cause they dont have to worry about working to change anything, or take any responsibility.
@lynnj85 Жыл бұрын
Very well executed video. Loved it!😊😀
@brianag3468 3 жыл бұрын
It's great to get a deeper look into the issues with KPOP from an actual KPOP fan. Thanks for the video!
@chrryblssmz 3 жыл бұрын
I'm only halfway through this video and I can already tell that this is an amazing video. the amount of research and time you much have put into this is incredible! I would definitely recommend this to anyone who wants to dig deeper into kpop and the problems within the industry. thank you so much for creating yet another masterpiece 👏
@caitlinm0929 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for this super informative and well put together video. There are many “dark sides” to the kpop industry, from the fans to the artists to the bullying of stans/idols. I feel your video was, like I said very informative. Everything was covered in a respectful way. Thank you cheyenne!
@urgh9822 3 жыл бұрын
You did this SO RIGHT. I wish your work was shown to every single idol , company , trainee...
@SimplySelicia 2 жыл бұрын
Appreciate this video, your sources and everything so much! I also had and early start, super long time away, and have been learning, re-learning, and talking about this process and some issues and it's been a wild ride! I can see all the time you put into this and the discussions being had and it's just so wonderful!
@choccopudin 2 жыл бұрын
I think in a way, K-pop has been a way to scape my life as a soon-to-be 20yo (this age being the age I was introduced to the genre), so watching people in their late teens, early or mid-twenties working so hard, and achieving things that were impossible to me, a shy and anxious person, really motivated me to step up out of my comfort zone. I'm grateful for those years, and the groups I got to know in those years, as they became my role models to be a better person. That being said, I heartfully agree with the points you explore in the video. There're definitely many problems in both the fandom and the industry, and the ways we discuss these topics in fandom spaces. We need to start worrying about the harm that minorities and marginalized groups experience rather than debating if the discussion would harm the artist's reputation or put the group in a bad light. I also hope for the day, these amazing artists, singers, dancers, and performers, have the freedom to experience life as any young adult. Have the freedom to date, marry, or do the things that are badly criticized for. And if they want, to share it with the people they feel comfortable with :) Amazing video as always ♥
@woofytron 2 жыл бұрын
i loved loved loved this vid. i can't even call myself a casual listener because KARA is the only k-pop group i ever listened to regularly, and they disbanded about a year or so after i got into them. my favorite of the group, Hara (who was close friends with Sulli) died by suicide a couple of years ago. her death was actually directly related to the sex scandal you mentioned, and it saddened me so much that i can hardly listen to them anymore without thinking about it. TLDR i'm pretty disconnected from kpop, but this video looked interesting so i clicked on it. you did a great job of highlighting kpop in a very nuanced manner, as well as showcasing how some people are very ignorant about it (like assuming all kpop fans are toxic.) like with anything else, there is good and bad to the industry! i think a lot of people take it to one extreme or another, acting like kpop is uniquely good or uniquely bad, when that isn't the case. a lot of the flaws in this industry can be seen globally. i noticed a lot of comments mention how the western industry is similar/also exploitative and i agree, but i was really interested in the clips from the blackpink documentary because i think the trainee thing is more systematic in kpop than it is in the US - we certainly have stars like Britney Spears, who was trained from a young age by her family who did everything they could to make her famous, but in the kpop industry it appears to be the industry-standard. the fact that i was engaged throughout the whole video and i'm not even into kpop is truly a testament to your skill. great vid as usual!
@galatea___ 3 жыл бұрын
Omg this is such an in-depth, well-thought analysis. I am a fan now 💖✨
@naominandn6509 3 жыл бұрын
This was a brilliant video!!! Like you said in the end its sooooo important to critique art we enjoy especially when we enjoy it. I really appreciate your well researched takes and the information you shared throughout the video
@twistysunshine 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for putting so much work in!! Hope you enjoy your break!
@CheyenneLin 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the kind words :)) and glad you liked the video! stay tuned for the next one!
@DMshell17 3 жыл бұрын
So in depth! I watched this from start to finish and appreciate the time and energy you put into this.
@CheyenneLin 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you!
@davidbarber3821 3 жыл бұрын
Love your openness on these topics!
@laurenceg481 3 жыл бұрын
amazing and insightful vid as always! you never disappoint 🗣
@miyandere 3 жыл бұрын
WHEW this is SO comprehensive and well spoken. I can't think of much that you missed, speaking as an 18 year long KPop fan, so I will be recommending this video to people who don't like KPop or don't know much about it and want to understand but maybe don't want to get into it.
@CheyenneLin 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much 🥺🥺 I’m so glad you liked it!
@ace.of.space. 3 жыл бұрын
great work, nuanced discussion of kpop is really interesting to me
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