*CVT Defender has entered the chat* I think the TR580 has a really good track record already (both daily dependability and off road) and giving it more aggressive gearing was enough to give it an advantage over the TR690 in the Wildy Outback. That said, the crawl ratio in any Subaru really isn't all that great. Off road a limited slip or locker goes a long way. To my knowledge Subaru has only used Viscous Limited Slips outside of their WRX/STI cars for a long time. Those to me never seem to be worth the trouble from having watched several in action essentially act as an open diff.

Interesting that the high torque CVT has a lower torque converter stall speed. Makes sense. The higher the rpm difference between the stator and turbine means more torque multiplication. So they are likely using a lower stall speed to protect the CVT. . For crawling, you don’t have the load and RPM to get the turbo going which means you have far less torque. So the N/A engine with higher converter stall speed is actually transferring more torque to the wheels for crawling which allows the brakes to raise the axle torque up high enough to move the vehicle up that incline. . Open diffs are always 50:50 torque, so lifting a wheel means the opposite wheel gets the same torque which is nothing. So if you want to transfer 2000 lbs ft to the wheel with traction the opposite wheel brakes need to provide that much clamping force which means you need 4,000 lbs ft of diff input torque to allow the wheel with traction to transfer 2,000 lbs ft and get you moving. And if you have a good AWD system you’re at 20:1 or less crawl ratio, so you need 200 lbs ft from the engine to generate it (More cause of inefficiency).

A great video, yes, keep making them👍. Going to trade in in my 21 ascent for the SFW. Originally wanted the Forester, but this trim level wasn't available then. You are leaving out one key element, the FTD factor (Fun to Drive). Every KZfaq reviewer of this SUV (and I have watched them ALL) couldn't contain their excitement, enthusiasm, or happiness. Whether verbal or nonverbal, they all were just flat out having a blast putting this SUV through its paces. You have thought they were driving a dune buggy 😂. Ordering mine in...the GREEN of course! One reviewer said he thinks they used the Warthog as a model 😃

I actually bought the forester wilderness over the outback because I believed the short wheel base and more aggressive gearing would make it more capable than the turbo longer Heavier outback and after watcher her review of both cars in the same spot giving the Outback multiple tries I was right. The forester is just a better off roader platform in my opinion. I did send my rear diff to get custom fitted with a rear locker and gave it a 1.5 inch lift so it’s a beast now

Researched this car segment for the last 2 months, my findings, - 5th gen forester rated #1 in safety and readability over all others including RAV, trial hawk, honda and bronco sport. That said, it has been a long road for Subaru from the CVT tranny , oil consumption, head gasket issues of past generation vehicles. At 6'3, CR just announced the Forester is #1 with tall drivers as well, no surprise as the "green house" visibility is very attractive. All the safety dings can be disabled permanently, with the exception of engine on/off at stop. After market solution will solve that as well. So, I will be picking up my Subaru Forester Wilderness / pearl white next week. Comfortable driving on and off road, safety and readability, looks, honest service advisors that I have visited with during this time, all have pushed me this direction. And finally driving my daughters 2017 Forester premium, sold me on being a Subie owner. Suggested maintenance to ensure long life; 30k diff (F/R) service, 40k CVT Transmission service, and oil changes every 4k. Compared to the Outback, Off road analysis/videos show the turbo in the Outback gets totally in the way of performance when climbing, as the Forester's new gearing and software changes bring much more to the equation over the turbo, in my opinion. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/kKyPfdeYr53Fe4U.html HAPPY TRAILS but MIN ROCK CLIMBING for this cowboy. 🙂

She did kinda influence me getting a Forester wilderness.

That was a great reaction video. You explained what you saw rather than criticizing what she did or didn't do. You should invite her onto your channel to discuss it further.

Dude! That was good. Sarah is an honest reviewer... watch her also. You filled in some technical being you had owned one. I enjoyed it!

I have a 2018 FXT… do you know if there were any transmission changes between your old FXT and my “facelifted” version? I’m considering lifting and investing in some off-road mods, worried how much of a limiting factor the cvt will be :/

Great video! Many people claim in Sarah’s comments that if it was in deep snow mud it would have made it up. To be fair it shouldn’t have needed that so called mode on

Yes, more of this please! Love you, bro, but Sarah would be more fun to hang with just for the color commentary😂

Definitely more of these so we get more apples to apples comparisons. Brings it all together and challenge’s manufacturer’s marketing

I think the problem with the Outback is the turbo lag. Forrester maybe NA but it's higher compression when turbo is not running thus better torque response lower down. The Outback before turbo kicks in is lower compression ratio thus less available torque. Also, I think the high torque CVT has a lower lowest ratio than the standard CVT.

Love this comparison. Kinda wish Sarah had done one too. Thanks for comparing. I own a Forester Wilderness and I too think that it is more capable than the Outback. The different CVT gearing with dedicated cooling does more for the Forester than the Turbo does for the Outback. I am not sure if she used XMode in the Outback when she went up the hill. Glad the Forester made it though. What I do find interesting is the 60 series tires on the Forester vs the 65 series tires on the Outback. The Forester would have more ground clearance than the Outback if it was wearing 65's.

I'm agree with you Jon, the new Forester Wilderness show a very good improvement. I own a FXT 2014 with now with 176 000 miles on it, i replace 2 time the CVT with used one and i add CVT oil cooler to it, i think is the best mod we can do to improve the longevity. You ask about the utility of various X-mode, personally i prefer it because gas mileage if is set-up always in X-mode II it become probably overheat, excessive gas mileage and other issues. The different mode as purpose in different road or off road condition. Take a look on the review of driving sports TV on the Foz Wilderness (2) in the snow...

(Sorry in advance for the book ) Xmode is useful when you either WANT some even spinning all around within limits (sand, snow, mud) to preserve momentum, or when you want very controlled movements with as little slip as possible (steep grades with gravel i.e.). I agree that the deep snow mud Xmode is the most useful all around for all conditions and all Subarus would benefit from having this be the default if they have nothing else, but I like the ability to modulate how off the hook the torque vectoring is allowed to operate. You would not want these more aggressive Xmodes to be default for normal driving because the system would be thinking and working too hard, affecting brake wear and MPG's. Not to mention you would not want torque vectoring to be happening when rounding a slippery mountain curve at 50 mph. I think the failure of the Outback had as much to do with throttle control and turbo lag as CVT stall. Both were fighting each other, and the momentum killing torque vectoring which kills speed as it applies brakes right when you want to move (Xmode deep snow mud helps with this). I forget if Sarah had Deep Snow mud Xmode on in the Outback, but she's pretty sharp, she likely did. I think it was more an issue of power controlability where the power is too low, you hit the beans and it comes on too strong causing progress followed by a spinout and then torque vectoring stall, and usually the operator if they are not used to the OBW is also letting off the gas, right at the wrong time because the power went from 0 to 100 too quickly. All these factors cause the Outback Wilderness to lose momentum when the less powerful Forester can keep a more steady progress going. With practice it is possible to overcome the weaknesses of the OBW by modulating the power more carefully, and using manual mode on the CVT ( an unproven theory I will try soon) and keeping it in first gear on challenges like that hill, and NOT letting off the gas as much when you get that power surge. Unfortunately the turbo kicks in like a booster rocket, and you really don't want that when offroading. Personally I think the OBW is the better all around choice for me, but I acknowledge that the Forester Wilderness is easier to drive and more mannered when it comes to the power band. The OBW can fight itself in tough situations and requires a driver who knows what is going to happen and how to mitigate it. At the end of the day the OBW has more power than it really needs for offroad situations. the gearing was the far more important enhancement, and in some ways the CVT playing sync with the Turbo AND torque vectoring is a dance best danced when not on a steep slippery grade. That is why I recommend using deep snow mud, putting it in first manual (simulated), traction controls off, and give it only enough throttle to handle the task, and be ready to resist the urge to let off the gas when you get too much power, just ease it back and keep that momentum. I would love to try that hill in my OBW with this advice and see how it does. But much respect to Sarah. I trust her attempt and her skill. I am sure the Forester is more user friendly, I just think the OBW can do it with the right input. This CVT is supposed to be the higher torque one and it should NOT be the reason for failure. I believe it cannot be compared with the other 690 directly for purposes of lower gearing since all the Wilderness models have a lower final gearing which make 1st in a Wilderness lower than the other models across the board. I haven't confirmed this with actual numbers, but I have heard it in advertising and reviews countless times, and the 0-60 numbers would seem to also confirm it. It has a lower gearing. I am unconvinced that the gearing is the problem here. I think the vehicle just needs to be tuned to work with itself better. It is stopping itself with software, not mechanical CVT shortcomings. It is very hard to modulate power on the OBW between light and medium without the beans really kicking in, and causing the torque vectoring to kick in to stop it. It can be done if it is your car and you are used to how it responds to driver input. But, disclaimer, I've only had mine a few weeks and haven't really had a chance to test it in these kinds of challenges. I am installing the skid plates this weekend and will do some moderately challenging softroading in the next few months. I also have new wheels and tires on order so that I can give it more "beans" and have less slip. Also keep in mind that neither of these tests were with aired down tires. I am sure that with my oversized AT's aired down to 15 psi I could give it the beans on that hill and it would power up it. And I trust my ability to keep momentum without going too fast. It is a challenge with this one, but you get used to the way the engine responds. I will say that I have been trying to take it easy on my OBW for breakin period (Im old school) and have basically been keeping the RPM's below 2K 99% of the time. The surprising thing is that the car does great below 2K and Im sure Im not even using the turbo. So this car has plenty of power driving on the road. When I have wanted to accelerate a bit it seems to just really take off and the power and upshifting happen so fast that I am where I want to be so quickly that I don't believe Ive ever had it over 3500 rpm. Granted I am babying it a bit still. But bringing this back to an offroad perspective. That sort of instant on response is great for the road. Not so much for a rutted dirt path. And I expect I will have to get into the throttle a lot deeper in those situations, which will only make it even more likely that it will start out great, get too torqy, and brake itself to a stop. They don't need a sport mode with the OBW, they need a Moderated mode where the beans are mapped to come on slower and more steady up to a respectable level. But my foot is getting trained and I am delighted to have a vehicle with the problem of TOO MUCH power too quick, because the other problem is even more frustrating (not enough too slow). And hey, Subaru, a low range transfer case would solve 90% of these problems. We are using a torque converter to compensate for being in too high of a gear. BTW I totally agree that the Crosstrek Wilderness done right will be the greatest little offroader. So much potential and you can put the right wheels and tires on it. Databyter

Methinks the reason for the X mode being a button has more to do with the longevity and nature of the CVT As technically the whole point of a CVT is for efficiency, which funnily enough in an offroad situation it might be more efficient to be in a lower gear, however, we know CVTs can not maintain that kind for application to long as the inherent logic means the bands are always trying to "Vary the ratio" which isn't advantageous on that climb for the OUTBACK Not to say its all bad, rather the button has to be a mediator as it goes against the CVTs programmed logic ( and I'm pretty CAFE standards aren't helping)

Nice video Jon! Definitely liking the looks and capability of the Forester Wilderness over the Outback Wilderness. Might consider trading my Onyx OBXT for it, but not sure if I want to take that big of a hit on power. Guess there's just a tradeoff between power and offroad capability with the two different CVTs.

Ahhh … I’m supposed to take delivery of an OBW in about 2 weeks. This video was very helpful!

More of these. Compared to the typical KZfaqr, I think your (Jon's) strength lies in your deep technical knowledge (TR690 vs TR580) and real world experience wheeling with others (comparing Subaru to Honda & others). Doing these reaction vids allows you to get your knowledge and analysis across to your viewers without having to do the time consuming process of shooting and editing videos or recreating specific scenarios on the trails to illustrate a point. Look forward to more of these. On to the video itself. It is very odd that the TR690 seems to cut power earlier than the TR580 since its suppose to be the "stronger" transmission meant for high torque applications. Its paired with the turbo engines and requires the "hi torque" CVT fluid. Maybe it's all in the software programming for these.

I love Sarah! 👏🏽😂 I’m not hating the reaction video, it’s really good actually.

Very interesting. I am looking at getting a new vehicle. I want a 4WD or 4x4 truck / SUV. I tend to keep all my car for long periods of time. I love the new Ranger but don’t necessarily want a turbo if I can help it. We have had a 2013 Pilot and love it but stupidly did not get AWD. I have narrowed it down to Forrest Sport or Wilderness m, Honda Ridgeline, and Outback Onyx (Non Turbo). I haven’t and don’t really go off road. I might do some light off reading once I get once but so drive up to Reno (Snow) often and would be nice to not worry about the whether. Now that I’m a little more mature I don’t need a super fast car and ten to drive less fast now days.

She took the new Honda Passport Trailsport up that hill with no problem. I thought that was interesting because another guy who reviewed the Passport against the Outback Wilderness said the Subaru was superior throughout the video. His bias was apparent from the beginning though he pointed out important differences between the two vehicles before he did the challenge.

I’d love to see them compete back to back but this is as close as we can get as a scientific trial! I’m still looking for a wilderness Forester to trail with and do some head to head tests. I know it would outperform me but I’m interested by just how much. Also lesson learned save yourself some $$ and gas with the forester unless you love a turbo and a wagon design.

Yeah mate, cool video. I think you're fine as long as you're respectfull. You were so it's fine :) I'm hoping the wilderness will ever come to Japan. Saying that, I will likely keep my e-boxer for years to come as it does what I ask of it. No extreme off road though :)

Love Sarah and great reaction! We can all agree Tough love Subaru!

great video! thank you

I love the reaction video! I used to have a 2018 Forester 6MT so my X-Mode was 1st gear lol. It makes me wonder if a manual transmission Subaru would have outperformed the CVT... (On a side note: I just saw that the 2023 Mazda CX-50 will come with AWD, a 2.5-liter turbo 4-cylinder, and a 6-speed automatic transmission. It looks like a Subaru Wilderness with an automatic transmission lol. It should be interesting to compare when that comes out.)

I liked watching this. I had the same tho when I watched those two videos but I was surprised that Sarah doesn’t mention it. Please make more very informative. I noticed it happened but didn’t know the background that you shared thanks.

very interesting! Would be interesting to see what tires each car had and amount of wear. That older Subaru might have had less aggressive tires with more mileage on them. Fun video!

Great comparo!

Good video again Jon. I do like reaction videos. I know nothing about these areas. My source of travel is little different as u saw in the past lol. I wanna see if I can make it up that 😁 good job and stay safe.

This is an excellent video.

Great video.

I think I understand why so many people are trading in their forester sports for the wilderness. I haven't ran into any issues with my forester sport yet, but it's honestly tempting to go for the wilderness.

when I saw this sara n tuned episode, I wandered what Jon Dz would think!!!

It looks like the flex that the Forester has is better than that one the Outback. And that Ridgeline made that hill look like a cake walk

I'd been wondering the same thing about why the FW cleared the hill and the OBW choked in the middle. You can really see on the 3rd attempt the power almost like pulsing the wheel like it couldn't decide how to give it, it's bizarre. And it's not just this one, I've seen other (too many...) OBW vids over the last couple months, and you can see other people's cars getting into the same type of obstacle, and that same hang-up/pulsating at the wheel.

jon the kind of guy to make a reaction video and mute himself

Modes are for videos game generation that like to push buttons. They will never know what it's like to get out of a truck and lock your front hubs and drive a 4 speed manual. .. I saw a couple reviews said that the forester wilderness was better to drive with the cvt that then outback wilderness and they attributed that to the turbo motor does not go very well with the cvt. Which I can see how that would make sense.

I wonder if she put the OBW on xmode..

I think with x mode, it splits torque 50/50 all the time. That may not be good for pavement use.

Alot of folks need to accept what Subarus are and what they aren't...and what they are is they're absolutely great for getting to trail heads and some sketchy junk--theyre not dedicated crawlers/mudders. Love my Subarus and they've gotten me thru some sketch...wouldn't consider any of them bullet proof off-roaders tho. Glad the wilderness does well.

Nice my element would had to turn around haha

I wonder if the X mode helped at all in the forester? she tried the climb in normal in the outback, Also isnt the Outback heavier?

3:53 true off-roader 😂😂

If you haven’t seen it yet, she also took a Highlander XSE up the same obstacle. I was absolutely shocked that it managed to climb what the Outback could not.

I imagine that the Outback Wilderness has more software interference protecting the transmission from the higher output turbo engine. Not needed in the 180 hp Forester. Also the outback is heavier which does not help matters. That said the Honda is a much better vehicle. Wondering what engine Honda will use next year?

Great video, i have lifted forester sport and thinking about getting another Subaru or honda passport. Not sure which way to go i like the 9 speed trans

I agree that (it seems like) Subaru's "X-Mode" should always be on, and that the software should automatically encompass both X-Modes 1 and 2. And I wonder if Subaru deliberately split the two modes just to "enhance the value" of a higher trim level offering X-Mode 2: "If X-Mode 1 is good, X-Mode 2 must be fantastic!" imagines the marketing department.

more of this stuff!

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the Forester Wilderness vs the Bronco Sport Badlands and or anything else that might be considered to have roughly the same off road abilities.

forester xt was way sexy compared to the newer forester in the front end

Is the Subaru Crosstek going to be VW Golf Country?

Theyre not for obstacles, just lil dirt roads and shine in terrible weather on the street. I know subaru sells em like jeep commercials but theyre not

The modes exist so the vehicle IS more capable. Traction control has to be more aggressive in some situations and be more relaxed in others. Spinning tires is great to get you out of mud. Not so great on thin layers of snow and ice.

She had it in the wrong X-mode.

Sarah said they did Not Air Down. How much do you think airing down would have helped the OB?

What's awesome is that the 2022 Toyota Highlander XSE made it up her hill. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/qdGBrbeLxtWzYaM.html

Firet

Use headphones, ear buds or something because I hear an echo of Sarah’s vid.

A suggestion: when you give commentary, try pausing the other person's video and give your piece. Then resume their video.

whats the intro song?

Sorry, they're both easily capable of tackling that hill. I do worse in my Ascent (the basis for the OBW drivetrain, including using the Ascent's rear diff). Sarah got the Forester up the hill by turning into it, as she should, to load lots of weight on the front left, and send the front left wheel into the part of the hill that was going higher. You'll note she cuts the wheel to the left in the Forester to accomplish that. In the Outback Wilderness, she keeps going straight, which is how to fail the climb. It's nothing more than a common mistake a lot of people make. Here's an example of the Outback Wilderness cutting right to climb out of a similar but worse obstacle. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/qd-mf8WAx9mzaGw.html

The Outback Wilderness has dual X mode as well. I wish y’all wouldn’t talk over each other. That was annoying. We have single X mode in our 19 Outback and every winter we have to go into X mode just to get up our private road and into our garage. We average 4 ft of snow every winter.

I'd LOVE to get "in to" Sarah!!

Makes me wonder how a bare bones Rav4 LE with the conventional 8 speed auto would do on that hill. Or a Mazda CX5 for that matter, ground clearance excepted.

So in short my 2000 Sub Forester is not going to be able to climb this hill???

Is the hill really that steep?

Whoo, first!

When she was in the outback she needed turn passenger

with the outback she stopped in the middle of the hill just when it started to get some momentum, and she took a different line with the forester, so not the same test

X mode blah blah blah. Air down and gas it. Speed and powah! Unrelated, but if anyone finds my control arm, lmk

She didn't even have it in deep snow and mud

The outback should climb that easy, she messed up somewhere.

Glad we have reliable car now. Our Subaru was in the shop All The Time 😎

I really believe you have to know the outback wilderness. If you don't know your car then of course it would struggle, my opinion. The outback wilderness, can make it just as easy as the forester. Just saying....im not sure if Sara really knows how to drive in all honesty

She needs to learn how to drive

Based judging it off of ONE TEST HILL… I will definitely never subscribe to your channel

That’s not a woman. It’s a man baby.