Outcry From Electricians Over Fuse Upgrade Rules

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Күн бұрын

There’s been an outcry in the trade over changes to the rules governing incomer fuse upgrades…
… an electrician is found guilty over the electrocution of a tradesman…
…and sparks lose their patience over the increasing amount of packing on electrical products…
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Show Notes 🗒️
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Time Stamps ⏱
00:00 Electrical News Weekly 18th March 2024
00:43 Outcry from electricians over rule changes for fuse upgrades
01:54 ECA's new technical bulletin - Bonding of Commercial Kitchens
02:04 New Zealand electrician guilty after tradesman electrocuted
03:25 Question of the week
04:07 YEPIC - A new app for tradespeople
04:30 Metrel introduces safety tester for solar panels
04:56 Selectric develops range of kinetic switches
05:20 Electricians lose patience over excess packaging
05:53 We want to hear your stories
06:17 Thanks to our premium partners
07:34 Challenge words and winners
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Пікірлер: 116

@MervynPartin Ай бұрын

Too much packaging is a problem everywhere, not just on hardware. It's hard to buy a sandwich on the road without a sharp knife to open all the wrapping. The earth wire connected to the live supply reminded me of the time we moved into a house in Essex in the 1980s. The kitchen 3 spotlight lamp fitting was ugly and one lamp was out anyway, so I decided to fit a fluorescent strip instead. After isolating the circuit, I removed the fitting and found that the metal frame was connected directly to the looped live. The previous owner had apparently died youngish of a heart attack- I've often wondered about that.

@merlin5476 Ай бұрын

@MervynPartin...... how odd... i had exactly the same issue around 2 months ago where the 2ft flu was connected to the live loop, but add salt to the wound, it was fed with crumbly 2.5mm very old rubber flex.

@MervynPartin Ай бұрын

@@merlin5476 It's quite horrifying, really.

@alexbowman7582 Ай бұрын

My boys mother had a housing association tenement house in Glasgow and they upgraded the gas combi boiler but left the water feed on and it leaked out getting the floor wet and it apparently connected to a faulty circuit in the house below. The hall radiator then would give you an electric shock, I used to repair old TV’s and I know a proper shock and it was a full shock. My young son described it as a sore tickle. The HA electricians reearthed the radiator but it was still live and they couldn’t understand how you could receive a shock from an earthed radiator and I had to point out to them that the radiator was properly earthed it wasn’t live, it was the wet floor that was live and touching the radiator completed the circuit.

@Joe-lb8qn Ай бұрын

I have a quinetic switch in my kitchen. Its used to switch on/off the waste disposal which was fitted some years after the kitchen, and avoided the need to drill through the marble worktop

@AnthonyHigham6414001080 Ай бұрын

I remember many, many years ago watching an LEB engineer replace the existing 30amp cut out with a 100amp PME head. He laughed when I asked if it was safe and said the cable would get a bit warm but it would last longer as a result.

@K2teknik. Ай бұрын

Regarding packaging, I was told that it for for the suppliers internal logistic, all items must have a barcode, some items can not be supplied with a barcode than the need for a small plastic bag where the barcode then can sit. So when you order 249 you get 249 small bags with an item in each, if you order 250 you get a box with 250 items in, life sucks.

@shiamjad Ай бұрын

yes, Octopus is providing week long training for stage 2 and fuse upgradation

@efixx Ай бұрын

Thanks for the info. 👍

@HSilver341 Ай бұрын

Part of the job role at octopus energy

@twwanderer Ай бұрын

Might be worth reaching out to Octopus to get someone from them to explain how it all works on their end?

@bobtahoma Ай бұрын

Nah. That would require responsible journalism.

@pjofurey6239 Ай бұрын

Octopus energy are trading insolvent .they also use a shoddy company called HASTE ltd who are breaking many laws like the electricity regs 1989 and the gas @ct 1954 among others , mainly,picking on single women , the elderly etc . OFGEM. Are complicit and at odds with the monopolies commission as their chairman Jonathon briefly also sits on the board of HMCTS……work it out

@christophergallagher3845 Ай бұрын

Those selecteic wireless switches will be awesome for installing under unit lights in kitchens and probably outdoor lighting systems too like patio lightiñg . Looking forward to seeing them being used

@markyd2633 Ай бұрын

Already using them....Quinetic range from TLC Using them for about 4 years now

@edc1569 Ай бұрын

If you install the generation equipment (PV/battery inverter) at the far end of the bus-bar then you can't overload the bus bar without also overloading the main cut-out fuse.

@Eggnog3000 Ай бұрын

What?

@seanthespark Ай бұрын

Ironmonger and daffodil, great news as always OG Joe

@timballam3675 Ай бұрын

For every fuse octopus upgrade it's one place up the cue for everyone else. My u loping was carried out by a steer lighting company and octopus's contractor arrived tge same day to fit the 3phase meter and fuses.....

@ks-hg5vo Ай бұрын

Saving so much energy we need to put in bigger fuses

@jocramkrispy305 Ай бұрын

Yes, because the hydrocarbon energy we're saving didn't go through the electric fuse

@rogerphelps9939 Ай бұрын

A 7kw EV charger might be problematic even though there are plenty of 7kw shower heaters around.

@ks-hg5vo Ай бұрын

@@rogerphelps9939 indeed. Just dont get home charge the car and have a shower while the misses cooks dinner

@rogerphelps9939 Ай бұрын

Yes. I have a 13A switched fused spur to my garage with some 13 amp weattherproof sockets. I decided to granny charge both my old Leaf and my new Enyaq at the same time. That is at least 20 amps because the freezer in the garage runs on it too. It must have worked for a few hours but then I couldn't understand why the garage door didn't work. The fuse in the switch was truly cooked and then I twigged!@@ks-hg5vo

@mbak7801 Ай бұрын

@@ks-hg5vo Only an idiot would do that. The car charges at night at £0.075 per KWh. Though to be fair the car could be a V2G setup so be pumping power back into the grid as well all the energy for the cooker and shower. Or the fixed solar battery and or time switching battery could carry the load preventing any grid load. My garage is starting to look a bit like a power station (which technically it is) in its own right.

@radiotowers1159 Ай бұрын

Watch UKPN network area see an increase in smell of burning and fire calls !.The installer will take the risk so Octopus doesn’t need too.

@rkde2042 24 күн бұрын

I recently had my meter upgraded, they broke the fuse housing which is fine - it happens, national grid came out to replace it and have taken my 80a and fitted a 60a which is less than ideal. They've sent me a link to fill in as they had no records of my EV charger fitted in 2015. The charger is fitted about 2ft under the fuse and it's have expected them to fit like for like and not drop my potential by 20a which now we are close to the new fuse limit.

@sergiofernandez3725 Ай бұрын

It is interesting how Octopus are allowed to increase the main cut out fuse possibly to 100amps and the other lots are stating if there is PV or Battery Storage that it may need to be reduced from 100amps to 80 as the average domestic CU/DB is only rated to 100amps. Are people in the industry not talking amongst themselves about these things before they present it to the public/trade en mass? Likewise are PV and Battery Storage Installers told to check the main cut out fuse and advise that it should be downrated? Catch 22 there as it is illegal for a full scope spark to open the main cut out and check the fuse size but the DSO/DNO/MO do not always put a lable on the cut out stating the actual fuse size rather than leaving the OEM label which is 100amp MAX. Will this give Gaz a whiff of BS7671 18thAM3

@efixx Ай бұрын

Yeah, lots to unravel from this. 🤔

@deang5622 Ай бұрын

It isn't a catch 22 regarding the fuse as whilst it is illegal for the electrician to change it, the electrician can easily comply with both the requirement for a smaller fuse AND not breaking the law by not changing the fuse by contacting the DNO and having them do it. Just because the process around changing the fuse is cumbersome, that doesn't give the right, or make it legal for the electrician to change it. Change it yourself and you carry a small risk of prosecution. Now there is a debate to be had around whether an electrician should be able to change the main fuse, but there isn't going to be any change to the regulation anytime soon and I don't want this thread to become that debate. What I am saying, in summary, is it isn't a catch 22, the two requirements are not mutually exclusive and both can be complied with. It is just a bit of a pain in the proverbial.

@deang5622 Ай бұрын

The regulations - as written down in BS7671 - take primacy over what can and can't be done regarding the electrical installation, not Octopus' opinion or views. The obligation is on the electrician doing the work to ensure it is compliant to BS7671 and it is quite clearly specified in those regs what is required in respect of additional sources of electrical power feeding through the CU. In order to meet the regulation, you can either a) Downgrade the main fuse and or b) Upgrade the CU to handle the higher current. It's a binary choice. The BS7671 regulation must be complied with. The Building Regs require it. I do take your point about not being able to obtain the main fuse's value without breaking the seal. I doubt the DNOs have a record of what fuse is used against every property, I just can't see them maintaining those records, and even if they are, the accuracy will undoubtedly be in question, so the fuse carrier is going to have to be opened to ascertain its rating. The DNO is going to have to accept they are going to have to do more call-outs to check the fuse rating on behalf of the electrician. Either that or somebody changes the law. Good luck on that! I can't see MPs with accountancy and law degrees giving a stuff about this topic, even if they can get their heads around it, which I am sure most of them cannot. They are not going to give this parliamentary time.

@sergiofernandez3725 Ай бұрын

@@deang5622Something for the ENA (Energy Networks Association) and ESQCR (Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations) to get envolved in I assume as some DSO/DNO/MO decisions are outside of the scope of BS7671. It is also interesting to note that BS7671 is used in other countries outside of the UK like like Qatar, Malta etc.

@charliedecker7702 Ай бұрын

One option is to fit a fused sw with an 80 fuse? Or a 2nd cut out? I was working on a digital billboard the other day that had 2 cutouts in series before the meter 3in apart🤷

@unSTEVOED 26 күн бұрын

It seems world wide the standards of Electrical Workers is falling. More needs to be done as an Industry to keep people safe from the dangers of Electricity

@AndrewDKinsey 18 күн бұрын

Excessive packaging could be a breach of The Packaging (Essential Requirements) Regulations 2015. For offences committed after March 2015 there are unlimited fines. This is regulated by Trading Standards, so complain to them if your products are over packaged. These regulations require amongst other things for packaging to be minimal, necessary to maintain safety , hygiene and acceptance of the product, and manufactured to permit reuse or recovery in accordance with specific requirements.

@gottliebdee263 Ай бұрын

I reckon the packaging thing is because we're so dishonest, (collectively). OEMs need to do two main things; 1. Protect the product in transit, (and in the production). 2. Protect the OEM from scabby people that break a product through deliberate or negligent misuse and take it back expecting a refund. Or simply use it once and return it to save money. Think about it, why would they add all that costly packaging if they didn't need to?

@SME_Ste Ай бұрын

Why are the national grid involved in service upgrades?

@efixx Ай бұрын

Good question. 🤔

@jmybuild Ай бұрын

They are a DNO in some areas (including here in West Wales)

@bdh_555 Ай бұрын

“National Grid” is a brand - National Grid Electricity Distribution is a DNO (they took over Western Power Distribution)

@SME_Ste Ай бұрын

@@bdh_555 right I see. Appreciate the info.

@SME_Ste Ай бұрын

@@jmybuild thanks

@kennethausten Ай бұрын

So one needs a training course to change a Fuse. ??????? We are qualified electricians. Suspect the course involves more regulations.

@johnchristmas7522 22 күн бұрын

upgrade to a 100amp on a looped service-twice!!

@charliedecker7702 Ай бұрын

DBs are rated at 100A but so are Henley blocks, so are the fuses going to be derated to protect those too?

@ANTHONYBOOTH Ай бұрын

Allowed to upgrade the company fuse eh? ...I can't see this ending well! ...I can see the need for an AVR + UPS (like I had back at Crete) ...I foresee grid voltage of 190 at peak times (just like back at Crete)........

@08001967 Ай бұрын

general comment: great to have an electricians news magazine

@TheChipmunk2008 Ай бұрын

More to the point, re: upgrading the fuse, IS IT LOOPED *FROM* another property... you can't tell without access to DNO records

@Graham_Langley Ай бұрын

Something that's concerned me. Most of the properties here, built '82, are looped and there's no indication on the final one that the supply is shared. Original fuses are 80a with 16mm² tails but several now have 25mm² tails and two power showers including the house looped from mine

@Rivenworld Ай бұрын

He got off light, 8 months? And not even in prison...

@SethTreasure Ай бұрын

Octopus can upgrade a fuse to max rating of 80A within NGED region subject to certain criteria being met

@rogerphelps9939 Ай бұрын

A 9kw heat pump requires only around 3kw from the supply so no main fuse upgrade should be necessary even taking turn on surges into account.

@johnj4860 Ай бұрын

Most are soft start inverter driven.

@acelectricalsecurity Ай бұрын

I wouldn't worry about octopus they say one thing then do the opposite, they said they were accepting PV installs that weren't done by mcs installers, two of my customers called octopus and they were insisting on an mcs certificate. There will be a big brown envelope falling on someone's desk, to grease the wheels of progress 😂😂

@nickhuk18 Ай бұрын

Ironmonger and daffodil

@peternorman2563 21 күн бұрын

Well now you see the upcoming problems with heat pumps. Get your EV car plugged in during the cold winter nights and your air source heat pump working at 1 to 1 and hot cables or a blown main fuse. No doubt Network UK will replace it with a large invoice !

@EverydayLife621 Ай бұрын

Just get a smart meter, they will put in an isolator for free. Also if you go direct to the manufacturer (my case Ohme), they use AES anyway who are approved to pull the fuse anyway.

@edc1569 Ай бұрын

I assumed they would, but they didn't for me.

@bluebellelectrical Ай бұрын

Nope, Octopus, Scottish Power, and Eon definitely don’t in Norfolk. Customer has to pay.

@davideyres955 Ай бұрын

They did for my mum and dads place.

@MikeGleesonazelectrics Ай бұрын

they didnt for me, devon.

@chazzlebazzle69 Ай бұрын

Offer a cup of tea and a few biscuits and ask nicely, majority of the engineers will oblige with an isolator, literally 15mins extra on the job time

@intercity125 Ай бұрын

ironmonger and fractious?

@DJ-SPARKY-REACH-ON-AIR Ай бұрын

daffodil 10 layers good luck to all

@efixx Ай бұрын

Great guesses, listen to next Monday's show to see if you got it. 👍

@bdblazer6400 Ай бұрын

one word is sip

@andrewwatson3576 Ай бұрын

ironmonger and daffodil

@themisterh Ай бұрын

Anvil and Daffodil.

@raymondburke1261 Ай бұрын

Anvil, and daffodil

@mark_just_mark Ай бұрын

Anvil and Daffodil

@spankeyfish Ай бұрын

I wonder if kinetic switches would be safe to use in a bathroom.

@JacobKelly02 Ай бұрын

Don’t see why not

@UnimportantAcc Ай бұрын

What's the voltage generated by the kinetic action? Defo lower than 50V, so I'd say yes.

@jeffmaddison2158 Ай бұрын

Ironmongers and daffodil

@abbash7727 Ай бұрын

Daffodil and anvil

@Goodwithwood69 Ай бұрын

Daffodil!

@Goodwithwood69 Ай бұрын

Anvil!

@shanesmall-xl5wj Ай бұрын

Ironmonger & daffodil

@ncey8713 Ай бұрын

Ironmonger, daffodil

@LeedsSpark Ай бұрын

Anvil and daffodil

@stevejacklin8462 Ай бұрын

Daffadil and Anvil

@darronjknight Ай бұрын

Ironmongers daffodil

@MrIsrar626 Ай бұрын

Ironmongers Anvil?

@hasan2471 Ай бұрын

patience ironmonger

@bucklelanefarm Ай бұрын

Ironmonger’s idialect?

@EdwardBretherton Ай бұрын

anvil and daffodil

@Jasonf-km5mq Ай бұрын

anvil, daffodil

@abzzeus Ай бұрын

IT world has horror stories of excess packaging but one springs to mind - licence codes. These weren't preprint rather generated on the fly, when requested. They (20+) came one per single sheet of A4, in it's own foam lined cardboard box, then 5 boxes bundled in a large box and all large boxes banded to a pallet. You read that what should have been one single piece of A4 came on a PALLET