Debate details: www.tickettailor.com/events/firstlutheran/1004040?ref=facebook

Dr Ken Wilson has severely debunked calvinism. This man needs to be talked about more.

"Augustine baptized Stoic thought into Christianity." This is a perfect analogy.

I thank God for a channel like this in exposing the source of Calvinistic views. Keep up this great work brother. Greetings from the Philippines.

I imagine it like this: Two nations at war. A warship is sunk and 1000 sailors are slowly drowning. An enemy ship shows up that has room to carry all 1000. The Calvinist version of the captain would randomly select 10 to forcibly drag from the water, then brainwash them to love him and worship him and his benevolence. My God will throw out 1000 ropes and beg them to grab the rope to be saved and carried to his homeland for healing. Most will reject the ropes and deliberately drown rather than submit to their enemy. But some will choose life and freedom, those are the ones who are saved.

Only Leighton would have a 24 minute "short" lol...but we love it. Keep em coming.

The last 5 minutes of this interview alone makes watching the entire video a worthwhile episode in my opinion (as they all are). James White fits the mold of most Neo-Calvinist leaders today: arrogant, overtly intellectual, condescending, crass, and scripturally duplicitous. Calvinism is one of the greatest self-inflicted wounds the Church of Jesus Christ has ever received and it panders to younger generations who have been fed self-esteem movement, new age inspired education that puffs up the self over those deemed to be lesser than thou. Tragic.

(John 6:37,39-40) “The double reference to the Father’s will (v. 37) suggests that the second statement explains the first. The emphasis in the first is on the Father’s giving, and in the second on human responsibility to believe (him who comes). That is, those whom the Father has given him are precisely those who have looked to the Son and believed in Him. The giving is not an arbitrary act of divine determination. God is determining that those who come, look, and believe will never be lost.” John Lennox

Great idea-keep reposting Ken Wilson's previous interviews. Really appreciate all your efforts w/ the subject. Thank you

James White - proof that even a staunch Calvinist can be just as wrong as Benny Hinn.

“God does not act in an arbitrary way nor in defiance of the human will when he draws people to Christ. Someone once tried to persuade me that God has chosen some people for salvation and chosen other people for damnation. Such an idea is monstrous. God does not arbitrarily and sovereignly damn the greater part of the human race into an existence they did not seek, on terms they did not select, … just in order arbitrarily to send people to hell for not choosing a salvation offered only to the elect. That may be some people’s idea of God and some people’s idea of salvation, but such concepts make God out to be a tyrant worse than any in the history of the human race” John Phillips

Why am I always disappointed by James' consistent use of strawman caricatures and ad hominem? I find it hard to belive that's the level of scholarship that earned him a doctorate.

I have to agree with David Bentley Hart, Augustine should have stopped writing 20 years before he did.

Reading the Book of Obadiah must be especially perplexing for a Calvanist. One would suppose they would have to literally change the words in such a way that it would support their theology . . .

“I can’t believe that!” said Alice. “Can’t you?” the Queen said in a pitying tone. “Try again: draw a long breath, and shut your eyes.” Alice laughed. “There’s no use trying,” she said, “one can’t believe impossible things.” “I dare say you haven’t had much practice,” said the Queen. “When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.” ― Lewis Carroll Dr White, being an EDUCATED man can do what Alice could not.

God constantly calls us to choose and to believe. God also separates the wicked from the just even in the Old Testament and that is based on their choice

We love Dr Ken, thanks for your work and time on these issues..

White never argues his point, just criticizes what decrees is not true or crazy to him.

Literally none of the verses James White cited for the Calvinist belief in a meticulous divine decree mention such a decree at all. Pure eisegetical example.

GREAT session Dr. Flowers, thank you!

Love this episode. Calvinists know.....Grace can't be grace, love can't be love, sin can't be sin and a gift is not a gift without FREEwill. None have EVER explained otherwise. The're lives are lived that way, every day, except...... in relation to their god. That's the Truth

After learning so much about Calvin's teaching and what the current reformed church teaches, I am convinced it is a cult. I followed McGaurther for a long time after being raised in an Armenian perspective. As I learned more and More about McGaurther and Sproul's teaching, the God that I loved and followed since I was 5 years old had begun to go away and seemed to be replaced by an evil unscriptural "god". My prayer life dwindld, why pray if God has decreed everything. My kids ministry seemed less important, after if they aren't elected why bother? I felt empty and confused. So many questions unanswered left up to mystery. As the Lord began to open the truth of the scriptures to me and the false teaching of TULIP, I have now realized these people do not worship the same God as written about in the Bible and even though they trust their form of "Jesus", it is not the same Jesus who died for the sins of the world, olny for the elect. This is no different than how Jehovah's witness and Mormons have a separate "Jesus" they have molded to their false doctrine. I understand we have friends and family who are Calvinists, but we shouldn't continue to encourage them as just being wrongly informed about certain scriptures and brothers in Christ. We need to boldly call them out and preach the truth in love, let them know that they are believing a false gospel and the need to be free from this cult. Repent and truly believe in the one true Jesus as written about in the Bible. -Whoever adds to HIS word will be accursed. I am now a Provisionist and Praise the Lord Jesus for helping me to understand the scriptures in context! Thank you Leighton for your ministry ❤

Excellent dialogue

SO looking forward to your debate with James White! And of course, remember to approach it with love and humility Leighton. Much love brother!

"No serious scholar = No true Scotsman"

Blessings from Finland !

Excellent discussion today! Thank you!!

I have such a hard time listening to white !! His defense for his position (every time I've heard him) is so so weak, jus blows my mind !!

I have asked the question Dr. Wilson posits many time: Where in the Bible is "sovereignty" defined as "complete divine control of every event including the thoughts, desires and choices of every sentient being?" think they use the term sovereignty because it SOUNDS like it honors God who is a SOVEREIGN but it does not answer what KIND of sovereign He is nor does it describe HOW He has chosen to rule His creation. According to the dictionary DETERMINISM is defined [without Christianized language] as: " the doctrine that ALL EVENTS, [including human ACTION thought and desire], are determined by CAUSES EXTERNAL to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have NO FREE WILL and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions."

So James White basically believes that if you don’t believe in Calvinism then you have a secular mindset? So because I don’t believe God determines or decrees every sickness and disease in the world, then I must be worldly? That’s hilarious

Thanks Leighton and Ken....I hear axes getting sharpened across the world

Fate and Calvinism make excellent bedfellows!!!

I like Ken Wilson as a fellow believer in Free Grace theology.

James White is stuck in a bubble that he obviously can't see outside of anymore , if ever he ever could. He spits his presups out as if they're absolute proven facts and does it in such an annoying condescending manner .

We're saved by God's grace, alone, through our faith in Christ, alone.

Great program!

Love this video. Great insight. Calvinist teaching is teaching from man's interpretation. They forget 2Peter 1:20-21. We should all test everything in light of God's word. Too many today forget Revelation 22:18-19. Jesus is my Glory and the Glory of all who BELIEVE. ❤

Whenever I hear a Calvinist, like James white, even say the words God’s character, I cringe. If Calvinism is true, God’s character is utterly evil.

Woooo! Members only 😎

I would love a list (I'm sure it's a short one) of preachers, teachers that I can listen to that are NOT dispensationalist Calvinists.. WHO out there on KZfaq is teaching TRUTH without Calvinism??

Meticulous determinism is poison to Christianity

Great video!! Looking forward to your debate with White in March. I hope it’s streamed somehow!

I think it is important to notice that the Old Testament is not deterministic and the New Testament and Christ’s teachings are absolutely prepared by the Old Testament..

Leighton Flowers: Now, Dr. Wilson, you may not have been aware, but there are different types of determinism, in case you didn't know. Ken Wilson : Thank you, Leighton, for informing me. Yes, I've extensively studied secular philosophy on causation, free will, and all types of determinism. I'm currently writing a book that will include a whole section on secular philosophy regarding these issues. I'm happy to debate this with White if he wants. Yes, there are major differences, and Augustine was aware of them. But the key is again understanding Augustine's syncretism, incorporating those deterministic concepts into Christianity-concepts that were never there previously in Christianity. Augustine essentially baptized Stoic thought into Christianity. For example, you can read "Augustine: Ancient Thought Baptized" by John Rist from Cambridge Press, or you can read Sarabia's chapter on Augustine's debt to Stoicism in the "Confessions" in the "Rage Handbook of the Stoic Tradition" from 2015. White errs by appealing only to the differences while ignoring key connecting concepts. He seems to argue that Christianity, in general, was influenced somewhat by pagan thought, but his Calvinism is exempted from being influenced by pagan thought. That is the fallacy of special pleading. Leighton Flowers: I think also what people have got to consider is if Calvinism is wrong. I mean, you kind of have to step into that world to be objective, okay? If Calvinism is wrong, then how was it improperly introduced within the church? That's if you ask yourself those questions. So, let's just pretend that Calvinism, for sure, like let's just say God appears to us right now and just says, "Calvinism is incorrect theology." We just all know it, okay. So, we would look back and go, "Okay, where did we make our error? Where did this shift take place? Where did it happen?" And this is where your thesis really steps in to show this is where it happened, this is where it was first introduced, this is the first record of it, even by reformed historians' own studies and estimations. And so, that's the importance of this, to demonstrate if Calvinism is false, this is most likely how it was introduced into the church and where the line kind of diverges into this more deterministic way of seeing things. So, let's look at this next section of clips from Dr. White. James White: It seems like a minority of Christians nowadays have a theology robust enough to acknowledge that God is in control. I can't tell you how many people I've seen saying that God doesn't have anything to do with this virus, that He didn't bring it about, and that He's not involved at all. And I'm just thinking, what Bible have you been reading? It's certainly not the one I've been reading. There are plenty of plagues in the Old Testament, and God wasn't caught by surprise by any of them. In fact, they all seem to be completely under His control. So, what Bible are you reading? Well, you're reading the same Bible, but you've adopted a secular lens through which to filter out anything that is offensive to that secular worldview. That's unfortunately what we see all over the place. Leighton Flowers: All right, so the reason I played that clip is he wasn't addressing us specifically here, which is sometimes when you can find the inconsistencies or the double standards. Could White's argument apply to Calvinists as well? Could Calvinists be reading the text from a Manichaean worldview without knowing anything about Manichaeism? Ken Wilson: Exactly. I think they have adopted a Stoic and Manichean deterministic interpretation of scripture, of God as micromanaging. This deterministic interpretation was not present in Christianity prior to Augustine. Determinism was Stoic, Gnostic, Manichean, and Neoplatonic, so Augustine brings it into Christianity. Therefore, Calvin's interpretations were dependent upon Augustine's underlying assumed determinism in scripture. Leighton Flowers: Well, Dr. Wilson, could you unpack that a bit further? Because as I listen to White, I can almost hear him in my head, given how much I've been listening to him. I can imagine him pushing back against this idea, questioning the direct influence. It’s as if he might say, "You just think Augustine’s ideas were downloaded into Calvin’s brain like a computer chip?" So, could you explain how exactly Calvin was influenced? Ken Wilson: Yeah, good question. Calvin's exegesis of the text assumes an underlying determinism, much like modern Calvinists. They start with a paradigm of determinism, which heavily influences their interpretation of the Scriptures. You don’t need to know anything-absolutely zero-about Manichean determinism to be influenced by it. Why? Because if you’ve read Calvin, you’re indirectly reading the influence of Augustine, who spent decades immersed in the deterministic philosophies of Stoicism, Manicheanism, and Neoplatonism.

James White was a rational man, but his irrational clinging to Calvinism is driving him into insanity.

What happened to love God and your neighbor as yourself..? How does calvinism line up with that commandant all?

A PhD in Biblical illiteracy!!! Paul: “In the last days, there will be some who are bent on leading many astray - although well learnt, they are just not able to come to the knowledge of the Truth” - 2Tim 3:1-7

Christians identifying with the reformed movement amazes me. Why do Christians align modern churches to churches that came out of the reformation and not want to align with the early church.

*WHY THE CALVINIST TREATS THE DOCTRINE AS-IF IT IS FALSE* 1) An infallible decree - by its very nature - does not grant ALTERNATIVES from that which is decreed 2) For example: If it is decreed that [X] will be TRUE at TIME-T Then that decree *INFALLIBLY EXCLUDES* the option of [X] NOT being TRUE at TIME-T. 3) The very existence of any ALTERNATIVE from that which was decreed - would countervail that decree. And a decree which is infallible cannot be countervailed. 4) Therefore NO ALTERNATIVES from that which is decreed are granted existence within creation. 5) Therefore - NO ALTERNATIVES exist for any Calvinist to choose between. 6) For example: If it is decreed that Calvinist_A will perform SIN_X at TIME-T Then that decree *INFALLIBLY EXCLUDES* the option of Calvinist_A NOT performing SIN_X at TIME-T 7) Calvinist_A NOT performing SIN_X at TIME-T would countervail the decree A decree which is infallible cannot be countervailed. Therefore - the option of Calvinist_A NOT performing SIN_X at TIME-T is not granted existence within creation. THUS IT FOLLOWS: Per the doctrine - for every human event - and every human impulse - an infallible decree grants *ONLY ONE SINGLE PREDESTINED RENDERED-CERTAIN OPTION* Man is granted *NO CHOICE* in the matter of what that option will be and *NO ABILITY* to refrain. THE DILEMMA FOR THE POOR UNFORTUNATE CALVINIST: It is humanly impossible to live coherently with such a doctrine and at the same time retain any sense of human normalcy. There is no such thing as a human having a CHOICE between ALTERNATIVES ALTERNATIVES do not exist for humans to choose between. THAT IS WHY Every Calvinist is forced to assert the doctrine as TRUE While simultaneously treating the doctrine *AS-IF* it is FALSE. And since the poor Calvinist is taught the doctrine is what scripture teaches him It follows - the poor Calvinist is forced to treat what scripture teaches him *AS-IF* it is FALSE.

Its all about integrity.Augustine as a religious man can never be trusted with his opinion and so does the murderer Calvin.

After much study of Calvinistic doctrines I've come to know that while Jesus said "you will know my disciples their love," I've come to believe that I know a reformer by. "the beards they grow, the cigars they smoke, the whiskey they drink and the caps they wear"!! The more I see their videos the more I've come to see that many of them are nothing more than 'posers'.

Five seconds in - here’s your Bible verses. “I declare the end from the beginning” “Him who works all things according to the counsel of his own will” Romans 9:14 addresses the human reaction of declaring God unjust for His free choices. This doesn’t mean you don’t choose things, rather God is so big that He works all things according to his will through your free decisions. This was all written down hundreds of years ago in the WCF but people are not taught historical doctrine so arguments against straw men are all to common on these topics. “deterministic Calvinism” is already a straw man by the phraseology. It assumes man has no choice, which the reformers clearly taught the opposite, just that man’s will is fallen and sinful, which always leads us to choose the wrong thing until Christ’s spirit comes to us and bears fruit in us (John 15:5). We can do nothing apart from Him.

God evidently did not decree that all men should agree that deterministic theology is correct

This is correct. I think it is a logical fallacy that a Calvinist would argue with anyone for the fact that the differing opinion it was predetermined.

When I was a kid, I used to listen to that Judas Priest song "Green Manichean (with a Two-Pronged Crown)". Oh, wait. It was Manalishi, not Manichean. lol

Hasta hace una década pensaba q el determinismo de Calvino tenía su raíz en la filosofía de su época, como Liebniz o de los nuevos descubrimientos de la física de Newton (llevadas a las últimas consecuencias como un mecanisismo espiritual); hoy después de leer a Paul Ricoeur y su re-interpretación del simbolismo del mal creo q la concepción determinista de Calvino está enraizada en el folclore de la mitología europea

Nice

Calvinism provides a platform for the atheist

Still waiting for White and Wilson’s debate

❤❤❤

I enjoyed the discussion, but it is extremely difficult to critique someone if we get only partial clips of James Whites conversation

Where did Augustine’s meticulous providence originate? Was it divine revelation? I doubt it. …Stoicism [etc]…exactly as I stated” That sums up all the logic of this discussion. Dr Wilson will not allow for the context of Augustine’s transformation, which he doesn’t seem to want to fully comprehend and acknowledge, by referencing his past as a defining and unchanging experience in Manichaeism. I was once a charismatic and word of faith follower, but I’m now against all the wrong teachings while acknowledging the aspects that are biblical. The key word being biblical. If Augustine has left his old beliefs so must we in defining him and not trying to force anachronistically a context to his position apart from the way he said he got it, from the word! It’s funny that in trying to comment one of the prompts asked that we address the argument rather than the person, but that’s exactly what this entire ‘short’ video was doing. Augustine’s arguments are from scripture. Address that, and stop straw manning his position. Nevertheless, it is irrelevant if in some sort of twisted way a good position can be argued from a human perspective to understand the text, it still doesn’t make the argument invalid simply by it sounding like something we detest. That’s a genetic fallacy being used to deny God’s word. What’s more important, and hasn’t yet been proven otherwise, is that God is sovereign, and man isn’t. God does what He pleases, and man does sin as he pleases, yet not to the total extent of his depravity but is constantly being restrained by God until he is left to himself in eternal damnation if he isn’t saved. God, who knows the end from the beginning isn’t compelled by an external force, which includes man’s ‘free will’ to create all who will eventually reject him, even though He already knows who it is who will reject and those He has chosen in Him from before the world began, for the Lord knows those who are His and who it is that does not believe. But how does anyone believe? Rom 10:14-15 tells us; the ones whom God has first sent the preach to preach the word they hear, and by hearing they believe and then are able to call on the name of the Lord and be saved. It begins with God sending all preachers to the one who will believe what he hears. For how shall they preach unless they are sent? If there’s any that isn’t determined then how do you explain anything? Where do those things originate in an ultimate sense from? We can debate the efficient causes by man which is the responsibility aspect of the complimentary nature of our actions but that doesn’t negate the fact that while we are the efficient causes God is still sovereign in spite of and not due to our actions. I would legitimately like to get answers to some of the questions I have asked above. Needless to say, this conversation didn’t provide anything but an echo chamber to provisionism in my opinion. Prove me wrong.

If Calvinist reasoning is true about what the Bible says, then, all men have repented and turned to God and the world will be judges in righteousness and not wickedness. If God gives command, then that is what will happen. Acts, chapter 17, verses 26-31 "26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead." James White is a willfully ignorant man. Ephesians 1 is talking about the church both in heaven and on the earth.

We often leave out the Spiritual aspect, component with false doctrine. Extra biblical theology that causes doubt & fatalism is not from God. Drive home from church: "Gee Dear, your quiet?" "Do you agree with what the new Pastor is teaching?" "Well, he says it's how salvation really works, but he's right about it being a hard pill to swallow" "Then I don't want to try for a boy...I don't want to have anymore children. I won't be a part of conceiving & birthing a soul that might be pre-ordained to destruction...by God's divine decree?? My Grandfather never preached anything like that. How can that come from the same bible?" 👿 "Hath God indeed said?"

I read the Bible that has Job chapters 1 & 2 in it.

The exposure of Calvinism isn’t new. It’s an innovation that has been seen as heresy contrary to the preserved teaching handed down by the apostles to the one Church as preserved in Eastern Orthodoy

Heres why White is highly unlikely to leave Calinism: Pride. White was taught his beliefs as a child. Then he attends seminary with same beliefs. Then he receives a doctorate, in theology. Then he bcomes a pastor, teaching his beliefs. Then he becomes a public minister, teaching both in front of christian audiences, and on the Internet. Then White, writes books, distributed world wide. Then he establishes a podcast defending calvinist beliefs. Then he debates, anti-calvinists, publically. So while my order of events may be incorrect, the events happened. White is invested in his beliefs; its his ministery career for 30-40 years or more. Keep in mind the significance of a "public," ministry career, compared to the ordinary, non public, church attending christian. So, to understand Whites continued behavior, one must understand the consequences White would suffer if he were to abandon his Calvinist beliefs, if he were to retract his beliefs. Im not excusing his choices, but presenting why I'm convinced he will never change course. Pride. Its a rare human, humble enough, to admit they are wrong....but particularly difficult for a "public," person. It's human fear of losing face, embarrassment, and loss of a career built on calvinist beliefs. I am not sugessting a change is impossible, but rather, highly unlikely.

Calvin referenced Augustine around 430 times in his first edition of his Institutes. Calvin was a Roman Catholic who still clung to the Sacraments on his death bed. I don't know why people refer to him as a Christian? Roman Catholicism is founded on Augustinianism.

10:53 allowed and caused is 2 entirely different things

That was more like cargo shorts and not regular shorts. Maybe even capris.

James White: That is first and foremost about the revelation of God's character and the accomplishment of his self-glorification in the joining of a particular people to himself in and through Jesus Christ. If you can just sit back and say, "Oh, see, Manichean determinism, Calvinist determinism, same thing," no, not even close. Can you see that the term 'grace' of a Manichean deity is different than the grace of the Triune God of Scripture? Do you think there might be just a smidge of a difference between the two? Audio Source: Do against Stoics, Manichaeans, and Gnostics-they're saying no, the Christian God is a relational God. He, in His foreknowledge, knows who's going to respond and who's not. It's not just this arbitrary thing that happens like the Stoics, Gnostics, and Manichaeans believe. James White: Now you see how you put them all together. No serious scholar would ever do that. No serious scholar who wants to be honest with what Stoicism believed, which group of Gnostics-there are so many different groups of Gnostics with so many different perspectives. Leighton Flowers: All right, so set aside for a second what the homonym argument there, and he says the differences are just so immense, they're absolutely-it's just crazy that any parallel could possibly be drawn. What do you say to that? Ken Wilson: That's a seor-that means it does not follow logically. Let’s say, well, somebody could say this: There could be no meaningful parallels between Calvinist and Provisionist. Calvinists assert God foreordained and decreed all rapes, genocides, murders, wars, and child sexual abuse. Provisionists do not view God as decreeing evil. In Calvinism, humans are eternally damned to hell at birth from the inherited guilt of Adam. Provisionists deny babies are eternally damned at birth. In Calvinism, God elects only a few people very mysteriously. Provisionists say God equally loves and invites all persons to salvation. For Calvinists, God’s sovereignty is paramount. Provisionists say God’s love is paramount. Enormous differences in who God is-very different gods. Therefore, no parallels can be made. Whoa, I would respond to that person like this: Wait a minute, both groups believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, who saves us from our sins. That's not a valid parallel. We can find important common elements. Similarly, although they are very different, meaningful parallels can be drawn between Stoicism, Gnosticism, Manicheism, Neoplatonism, and Augustinian Calvinism. Many other scholars have already drawn those parallels with Augustine. For one, you could look up Professor Johannes van Oort on Augustine’s incorporation of Manicheism. White’s favorite argument is not valid; it’s a non sequitur. Leighton Flowers: Yeah, and this is what we were talking about before. The reason we don't cast out Calvinists as unbelievers or as non-Christians is because we do hold some commonality with our belief in Christ. We may refer to different gods in the sense that we're describing different views of God, which is obviously what we mean by that. We believe they worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, just like we do. We believe they have misunderstood some scriptures and therefore are describing God with characteristics that He does not have. That’s why we're trying to bring correction. Like I said before, we're not bowing at the altar of free will, but really trying to maintain what the Bible teaches with regard to God's holiness, His character, and the genuineness of His love, provision, and desire for people to be saved. We want to uphold that as important.

James White mocks with a robot voice while preaching a robotic doctrine.

@soteriology101 Next study needs to be church fathers between Augustine and Calvin

How anyone listens to White, follows him, or nods at his circular arguments is a head-scratcher.

I lean heavily towards Provisionist / Traditionalist-Southern Baptist soteriology, being very blessed by Soteriology 101 and similar ministries in their pointing out the errors of Calvinism. I am not a scholar of any sort, just a layman who has done his best studying the Scriptures and apologetics for over 30 years, with the last few years looking more at Church history. I was quite saddened at first when I noticed fellow believers on S101 pointing out potential errors of Ken Wilson; I dismissed them at first. Though I first learned from Dr. Wilsons book that Augustine was the first major purveyor of the Exhaustive Divine Determinism adhered to by Calvinists, it was pointed out to me by these other believers, not only that other scholars already knew that Augustine was the main proponent of this Determinism (though heavily influenced by Marius Victorinus), which is fundamental to Calvinism, but that there were errors by Dr. Wilson, discovered not by Calvinists (as one might expect), but by Lutherans and Arminian / Baptists! These gentlemen acknowledge Augustine’s later Determinism, but contend against various inaccuracies concerning the universality of early infant baptism and not a few other issues concerning the Early Church. Sadly, I discovered the truth of this in my own research. Now knowing these things, I feel that this could be detrimental to the S101 ministry, and I certainly don’t want to see that happen

Thank God Almighty that He is using His servants and His Spirit to purge the satanic slop of calvinism and arminianism from the body of Christ!

I just wonder, if creation was finished on the 6th day then what's with the micromanaging?

How did the Precepts of Calvinism enter Christianity? Might I suggest looking at the Cathar Book of the Two Principles?

Was 1Kings 22:19-35 influenced by Stoicism? it seems to be presenting personal determinism.

Leighton Flowers: Yeah, and you might not even read Calvin directly; you could be reading John MacArthur or John Piper. So the influence is there, and it prompts you to question: if there was absolutely no determinism in any teachings, and James White picked up his Bible for the first time and was the first to interpret Romans 9 and Ephesians 1 in a deterministic way, introducing concepts like TULIP as though they were completely new, nobody would take him seriously. Everyone would assume he's standing on shaky ground. This is what we're trying to highlight-not that if you believe in Calvinistic determinism, you're directly influenced by Manicheanism, but that this kind of deterministic thinking has influenced the church broadly. This precursor to deterministic thought preps your mind so that when you read the texts with that perspective, you see them differently than you otherwise might. It seems that James White insists that the Christian concept of God, who decrees everything, is distinct from the deterministic views of the Stoics, Gnostics, and Manicheans. He argues that it's nonsensical and even foolish to compare these forms of determinism with Calvinistic determinism. But what more can you say about that, Ken? How do you respond to the dismissal of these comparisons as hyperbolic and baseless? Ken Wilson: So I would ask where in Scripture it states God decreed everything. You cannot find it. God does decree some things, but not everything. Scripture states God controls the stars and every speck in the universe, but where does it say God micromanages every world event by prior decree? Calvinists assume God decrees everything. Why? Because Augustine brought micromanaging Stoic providence into Christianity, and he used Manichaean interpretation of scripture verses to prove determinism theologically in Ephesians 1 and 2. According to scholars who I quote in the thesis, the only Jews who ever taught meticulous providence were the Kumran community and Philo, both heavily influenced by Stoicism according to those scholars. So, our Old Testament, the Tanakh, did not teach meticulous determinism, according to almost all Jews. In the New Testament, no scholar I have read views Paul as teaching determinism except Calvinists. No, not one non-Calvinist scholar I know has written that an early Church Father held Augustine's deterministic view of God and unilaterally assigning eternal destinies. So, where did Augustine's meticulous providence originate? Was it divine revelation? I doubt it. True scholars point to deterministic Stoicism, Gnosticism, Manichaeism, and Neoplatonism, exactly as I stated. Augustine tweaked Manichaean anthropology of damnation by created birth-created birth into damnation by inherited guilt from Adam at birth, by the fallen nature of Adam, not created nature by the bad God. So, his peers did not consider that difference between fallen nature and created nature significant. It was Christianized Manichaean anthropology: damned at birth by fallen nature, not created nature, but still damned at birth. They did not see this as a Christian doctrine; it was a Manichaean doctrine that had been baptized. Leighton Flowers: Yeah, yeah, and you mentioned the scriptures, and this is something we try to go over quite regularly on our program. When we have guests on who are Calvinists, we ask that question: Where does the Bible teach that God decreed everything including besetting sins, sinful thoughts, and pride? For instance, 1 John 2:16 says the lust of the flesh and the pride of life are not from the Father but from the world, and yet your doctrine says they're from God's sovereign decree ultimately. I haven't heard at least a satisfying answer from Calvinists on that point. In fact, you've got Jeremiah 19:5 that says when they were burning their children to Molech, not only it says, "I did not command it," but in the ESV it says, "nor did I decree it, nor did it enter my mind." Yet, Calvinists say God decrees everything, yet the scriptures say he didn't decree at least that. And there are many other verses-James White, for example, saying he doesn't tempt men to evil, and so many other passages that really seem to me to distance God from the evil of the world. This is really a defense of His holiness. That's one of the reasons we're doing this, not just to like that we're bowing at the altar of man's free will. We are trying to protect what the Bible teaches with regard to the holiness, the character, and the goodness of God. That's what's so vital here. The number one verse that I hear James White quote to support this concept of God's decree of everything that happens is Ephesians 1:11, which is completely misaligned because that's actually in the active tense where it says he's working all things according to his will. That's actively working all things together for good, just like in Romans 8:28. He's working out good for all who love him, for those who are in Him, as Ephesians 1 is talking about those who are in Christ. The fact that God works out good for all who are in Him is something we all universally hold to. There's nothing in Ephesians 1:11 that suggests this exhaustive divine determinism or God's decree of every human thought, action, and deed. With that in mind, let's listen to this next section of clips from Dr. White.

What would be interesting would be that the Rapture happens tomorrow and James White realizes he's still here.

Maybe I am wrong but what I gather from calvinism is that God is a monster(but they believe He is still good), they quinch and at times reject the Holy Spirit(which is also extremely bad/dangerous, and they create a stumbling block for christians and unbelievers alike. This is not good. Though I agree that many can/are saved. It is is a dangerous way which is not leading us correctly.

What the doctor is saying is correct but the protestant influence which came along 1000 years later and had a more simple reason for scriptural error and dis-unity of the protestant movement!!!! These errors spring from the differences in how Jesus taught the gospel and in how the apostle Paul taught the gospel!!!!!! The apostle Paul can be bent to conform to a Arminian gospel and a Calvanist gospel, while Jesus can only conform to a Arminian gospel, it really is that simple!!!!!!!!!! This is the easiest solution to this Christian debate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Along with Jeremiah 19:5; 1 John 2:16; we can add Jeremiah 32: 35; 7:31. And yes, the ESV translation of the Hebrew word DBR, almost always occurring in the Pi'el/factitive stem, is properly translated decree. It is the word to speak, which in this stem means to put into a state of having been spoken, which in application means that it will happen, that is, it is decreed. Despite the inferiority of the ESV translation, which the reformed camp loves, they got this right. James White has never been impressive. He is an inferior voice in the reformed camp. I've heard him say some really uneducated things, misrepresenting what other Christians believe.. If I were still a Calvinist, he would be the laughing Stock of the Calvinist camp in my opinion. And John MacArthur isn't much better, making some very uneducated statements about groups that disagree with him. James White is the Chris Davis of the reformed camp. Popular, had an initial impact, but can't hit his way out of a wet paper bag. Frankly, I actually don't think he's that educated at all. One can have a doctorate and not know what he is talking about. And as for Augustine, I have never understood why he has been so popular and so trusted. His determinist thinking was actually on the level of federal vision. But even if one says it was not, why in the world does the Roman Catholic Church like a guy with whom they have extreme disagreement and sociology? Augustine was not influential because he knew what he was talking about, but because he had some sort of other effect of influence. I think he was more of a political player than people want to admit.

Genuinely asking ( not trying to provoke). Aren't we DEAD in our sins? Don't we sin because of our sin nature? If we can choose to follow Christ / God of our own accord...then why did Christ die? Grace is unmerited/ unearned favor. What overcomes a person's sin nature? Isn't it Christ?

How about a T shirt with Calvinism Merits Correction

Isaiah 46:10 answers that

Luke 22:32 but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.” 2Tim 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;.....I guess these sacred texts & countless texts alike, just don't count in Calvinism & im sorry to say but its the expected result of sola scriptura & worst of all, Calvinism teeters on blaspheming the Holy Spirit, calling our Good Holy Gracious Loving God & Savior the author of evil..its a problem

It is far easier to debunk Calvinism by simply putting on the lens of extreme antiworks interpretation. The goal was to take all power away from the church, and give it to God. That's it.

Atheism is preferable to believing in Calvinism. The God of John Calvin is worse than the devil

Help ! When is Flowers vs. White debate ??

Although you may not consider Calvinists to be unbelievers I am an unbeliever in their God. However, I am a Fatalist. The future is just as set as the past. This seems to follow from an understanding of the universe as one spacetime block. It also fits very comfortably with God as the Alpha and the Omega. My rejection of Calvin and his God is their emphasis on God hating unbelievers (such as me) and the extra-Biblical notion that saving faith is a gift.

Just a question..Can we hold Augustine's sinful past against him ?Not talking about the influences his past had...Beza who seems to have entrenched some thi gs had a sinful past...apparently something to do with pornographic poetry...When his enemies mentioned this...he apparently said..They deny me my conversion. Don't think I am a fan of Beza...but he had a point.Not referring to Augustines theology here...Not sure if this is the right place for this specific point. Thanks...appreciate the podcasts.

I'm just a lowly common man, but if you look at it from God's perspective, the notions of free will and predestination (elect and non-elect) logically coexist.

It sounds like Augustine wholesale accepted the Stoics view of fatalism, but then baptized it theologically as being God’s providential decree - without any additional shift in meaning. As if the Stoics got it exactly right, except missing that God is behind the fatalism.

Did he pronounce Cicero as "Kikkero"?

I did like some of John Calvin's commentary I read earlier on a verse or two..

“Where in the bible does it say God determines the future” Isaiah: “Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure”

If everything is decreed, then God has no freedom. God is not a free being, because God is forced to think and act for all eternity as he commanded himself to act and think before the foundations of the world. Determinism is absurd. God is a free being, it means he can do what he wants, it doesn't mean he is forced to do what he decreed himself to do.