The math does look a lot closer at low levels for a ranger combining hunter’s mark with a heavy crossbow or a maul. Crossbow Expert does come out a fair bit ahead, though.

Overall I agree, but you're forgetting/omitting the utility use: Jim is a recurring villain who always has an escape-plan. Ruin your DM's recurring villain by tracking him down.

Me, who only didn't take Hunter's mark on my Beast-Master ranger because I need my BA: "well this is a fortunate coincidence". BTW Aid is now on the ranger list with Thasha's expanded spell lists, not exactly going to singe-handedly win combat but it is one of my favorite spells and +5 max hp is pretty nice.

Thank goodness someone else noticed this! My group said I was crazy.

fog could, Zephyr Strike, healing spirit, spike growth, Silence, conjure animals, Conjure Woodland Beings, etc why would anyone concentrate on hunter's mark?

One problem with your calculations is the assumption of every character being able to take a feat at character creation. I mean, sure. That is the power build way to do it, but if you don't have that hunters mark will be useful for those early levels simply because one cast can be used for a long time.

The Longbow has a small niche over a hand crossbow due to it having a significantly higher range and it's an option for Ranger builds who want to use their Bonus Action for something else. Also, Crossbows shoot bolts, so they can't make use of Slaying Arrows if you happen to find any. However nothing stops your ranger from using more than a single type of weapon.

This is the problem with 'white room' balancing. Hunter's Mark is consistent, direct and available no matter what. It's powerful because not everyone wants to play a custom lineage crossbow expert gloomstalker or insist on a house ruled version of Conjure Animals. You can't kill it with AoE, you can use it with any weapon, and it combos well with the way most fights are set up in game: with a 'boss' and their minions. Most importantly, it doesn't require an additional attack or proc a save. For a half caster who is already MAD this is significant. This also ties in to your point about the druid spell list. Many druid spells are much more powerful on a druid, because they can afford a higher spell save DC. Another reason I find this reductive is that your examples imply a false dichotomy. Yes, crossbow expert and hunter's mark have anti-synergy when used together against multiple opponents with low health, and those are a common threat. But they have very strong synergy against single opponents with a lot of health, especially ones with medium to low AC. You can simply choose not to cast Hunter's Mark in situations where it isn't as relevant. I know you titled this video as you did for a reason. You're not claiming that Hunter's Mark is a bad spell, just not always the best choice, and I definitely agree. However, I think you're generalising a little too much in your examples and the claims you make. Hunter's Mark remains one of the best ranger spells, and probably always will.

The Ranger spell list has so many bangers on it. I can’t believe people seriously upcast Hunter’s Mark when they could be casting Spike Growth or Summon Beast.

He did the math so you don't have to

I wouldn’t say that the ranger spell list is bad. Rather, it just isn’t as damage oriented as one might expect from a martial class. If you approach their spell list with some creative plans though, a lot of the spells become real stand out items. No familiar? No problem. You’ve got speak with animals and animal friendship. Practically any beast in the game is yours to befriend. As you pointed out in the flight video, many monsters struggle with combatants that can escape their melee range. Great news for the ranger because they’ve got Longstrider, jump, and zephyr strike all at first level slots. A 15 foot vertical leap onto a roof or tree branch can leave your opponents seeking alternate targets.

I like that one of my players uses hunter's mark for his second effect. I like recurring villains so a lot of them have high mobility or teleportation spell, that ranger never uses hunter's mark during the fight but always cast it at the end to track the escape of the villains, i really like that

I don't think it's as cut-and-dry as the math suggests. The opportunity cost of casting hunter's mark is a 1st-level slot you could have used to cast something better, no doubt. The opportunity cost for taking a BA shot with crossbow expert is an entire feat, and a commitment to shooting hand crossbows your entire adventuring career. Maybe that's a price you're ecstatic to pay, but it's by no means cheaper than a 1st level slot you can replace daily.

I had t pull out hunters mark after the bbeg ran twice. I think I only had one hour to try to hunt him down at that level but next time I will get him.

no, you know the worse part of hunters mark? it has a verbal component. the spell a silent hunter would use on a skittish deer and he has to say "wibbly woobly"

I’ve been currently playing a Swarmkeeper Ranger in a campaign, and I’ve been genuinely enjoying a lot more once I ditched Hunter’s Mark for other spell options. As a Swarmkeeper Ranger I get for free Faerie Fire, which supports my entire team with advantage against an enemy, and after reaching level 5 I also learned Summon Beast, which I admit isn’t an incredible spell but for me it is genuinely fun in terms of flavor. You see, why did I pick all these things for my build? I wanted to make a Ranger based around someone which could talk to and conjure spirits from the wilderness, and that’s why I love summon beasts as a spell, plus the damage output at that level is quite decent in my taste. Although I’m still waiting for Conjure Animals to come to me, because that’s where the real fun begins.

So it seems good for boss monsters and other high Heath creatures where you will get many rounds. Sure once summoning comes online and other better spells this gets outclassed but early on it seems the best way to deal with a creature that will take multiple rounds to deal with.

I played a fey wanderer ranger for a while, but she was wisdom focused with druidic warrior and shillelagh - great for spellcasting and being up close for melee. Hunter's mark would have been BEYOND suboptimal for this build, and it would have meant I couldn't use my concentration and bonus actions for other spells that require it like zephr strike and searing smite (thank you tasha's for this spell), which do WONDERS for melee rangers, not to mention the once a round psychic damage from dreadful strikes - basically infinite favored foe, but it caps at a d6 and is always psychic damage (though that is good for magic resistance). Rangers are so commonly overlooked man, and it's shit like the idea with hunters mark that make it like that

"To look at the Ranger list and say it is bad, then to look at the Druid list and say that it is good, is a contradiction." Not true. Hunter's Mark exerts negative usefulness on the Ranger list only, reducing the overall usefulness. /s

Out of curiosity, I did the math for Hunter's Mark vs Conjure Animals(9th-level ranger with a dip in cleric for HW), just to laugh at it even more. It turns out concentrating on CA and using your bonus action to Healing Word the enemy every turn is 17.9% more effective in terms of damage than concentrating on HM. I assumed the summoned creatures did not have Pack Tactics and had +4 to hit/1d4+2 damage.

"Saying the Ranger list is bad, but the Druid list is good is a contradiction." Half-casting a good list makes spells that don't scale a significantly worse. That said, there are still enough strong spells that scale just fine on the Ranger list to fill all spell slots.

Comparing Hunter's Mark to Conjure Animals is suboptimal. 60% of games don't go higher than level 8 or 9, 30% don't go past 14, and the remaining 10% will go higher with a sliver heading to 20. But for the first 8 levels, you won't have Conjure Animals. For the first 4, you won't have Pass Without Trace, and even then that spell is only useful in 60% of situations, and only in round one. For instance, you can't rely on that spell if you're entering rooms where the enemy is facing that entrance, which happens more often than you think. Hunter's Mark can last an entire encounter in comparison, and is obtained at 2nd level. It might not compare in round 1 numbers, but its consistency outweighs its limited damage.

I just cast Hunter’s Mark immediately before initiative. This is the forbidden technique that DMs don’t want you to know about.

actually running a kobold ranger right now... going to run another one day, current one is a drakewarden (UA). Shortbow right now, but I don't even have hunter's mark prepared, I have zephyr strike, cure wounds, and jump, and I am using all the alternate ranger features.

You sir have convinced me, and earned yourself a new subscriber.

Hunter's Mark: "Who are you?" Favored Foe: "I'm you, but much, much cheaper." Not a spell known, no spell slot, no bonus action. It's the kirkland brand.

The problem is Rangers spells are mostly Concentation spells, Hunters Mark result in you locking in 1 hour of concentation. Alot of powerful Druid spells aren't part of Rangers list. As you show yourself, you listed nothing but concentation spells and Good Berry, Good Berry easily being Rangers best spell to the point that it's kinda overpowered.

This seems to only rely on the assumption that we are fighting a tone of low hp creatures instead of fewer higher hp creatures or a boss. It's only one bonus action if it's one enemy or a boss

I think zephyr strike is an underrated ranger spell due to the fact that it’s a buff to yourself, you get advantage to your attacks, 1d8 FORCE damage, plus 30 feet to your speed, and you don’t get opportunity attacked. While the last one is a nice bonus if you’re fighting something with high speed and it catches up to you, the other buffs are just absolutely insane. Almost nothing resist force damage and it’s a better dice than hunter’s mark, you get advantage to all attack rolls, and you practically double your speed.

The CBE, Hand Crossbow argument is fine, but that build is currently weak in a bit over 1/3 of our fights in two campaigns I'm in. Those fight initiate well beyond a hand crossbows optimal range, so now you are waiting until 4th or 8th level when you also have Sharpshooter, and not taking any Dexterity bump. In one of those campaigns also the enemies have morale and often run and flee, so Hunter's Mark can help in tracking them down if done within the hour. Still a very outside the norm case. I agree Hunter's Mark isn't worth it 95% of the time, but most of the other spells listed go against Pack Tactics phrase "damage now is better than damage later" since few of the other spells he lists as being options are damage spells, almost all of them cost an action, so you are then deciding not to attack that round, so you've already decided on null damage from your ranger on turn 1. Entangle and others are great spells and often the right play, but using that phrase for Hunter's Mark and then making your suggestions of what to do instead being no damage turn 1 instead comes off as hypocritical. As was written in big red letters at 4:07, "You always lose dpr on the first round" if you don't attack.

So, you're saying that HM is worth casting as long as the target lasts 2 rounds, even if you have crossbow expert right? And if the target lasts any longer than 2 rounds it's just better? If HM is bad damage, what 1st level spell should be cast instead to optimize damage?

Thanks for talking about this, I have been building a Tasha's Ranger Swarmkeeper and just noticed this flaw in damage. With Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter (Both feats I plan on Taking especially as a Variant Human) assuming a +5 dex, the damage comes out to be, in order for the cost of hunters mark to come out net profit instead of using the extra bonus action to shoot someone and using sharpshooter, you would need to hit the same person approximately 7 times for a *small* amount of damage positive hunters mark. Glad to know Im not crazy and messing up my math, seems to be that I would rather have a different spell known and keep my slot. Thanks

I would like to propose the “Granger” in honor of my Giff Thaddeus. A ranger with a gun can be quite nice with hunter’s mark at earlier levels. With non crossbow options you aren’t using a bonus action anyways so you might as well use it to enhance your attack. At level 3 with the Hunter subclass, on hit that is a d12, a d8, and a d6 with hunters mark. Not to mention the occasional crit can really pop off when you are rolling that many dice. Obviously better options open up with higher level spell slots, but it can be a very nice addition to the early levels.

Goodberry FTW! Great video: )

"Throw it away!" Loved the video. Subbed!

i use hunters mark pretty regularly on my rangers but i like to think of my ranger spells kinda like stances. hunters mark is a stance that buffs the damage of all of my attacks so i rapid fire as many attacks as i can, zephyr strike is a stance that grants mobility and burst and lets me hit several weak targets in one round and so on. hunters mark is useful because once you get the ball rolling a level 5 ranger can get an extra 3d6 damage per round and if you're going through a dungeon you can utilize the same hunters mark for several encounters. hunters mark becomes even better if you get the drop on your opponent, marking them before they even know you're there means it doesn't even cost one of your bonus actions in the combat.

A war cleric dip for divine favor and bonus action extra attack can be great for rangers that use ranged attacks. The second level channel divinity +10 to an attack nicely sets up sharpshooter.

Thank you! I have been saying this for years! Well not the cross bow expert, but that there are better spells

The bag pipes in the back are a very nice and soothing touch

people do realize that the hunters mark is made in a way you can track someone after putting a mark on them and attacking when they get to an advantageous area

"Fights are usually 4-6 rounds" Me having JUST finished a "one shot" that took 7 hours because the Dice gods kept FUCKING US in both encounters with attack rolls, while also having to teach 2 newbies, leading them to take 12 and 16 rounds.... NEVER ASSUME SOMETHING GOES TO PLAN

Okay okay I was one of the non believers at the beginning of the video but I can see why in the scenarios you've mentioned its not worth it. One of my DMs often has us going through really really long dungeons with dozens of encounters so its extremely regular for me to carry Hunter's Mark or Hex from fight to fight. Compared to tangled vines or fog cloud only getting use in one fight. (but maybe it is just my baise of rolling dice goes brrrrrrr) Thing that you didn't mention that did have me confused though was picking up Crossbow Expert means you picked up a feat instead of increasing you're Dex but we weren't accounting for the extra +1 damage/ +1 to hit per attack that Ranger has. I assume.

There is one good thing about Hunters Mark. While you concentrate on it you have advantage on perception and survival checks to track them down. Trying to keep track on an enemy hiding in a crowd, land a HM and keep tabs on him/her while concentrating.

2:40 "Fights are usually 4-6 rounds" Wow, you're doing some marathon combats. For like 90% of people fights are 2-4 rounds.

I like favored enemy from unearthed foe from unearthed arcana, since there it applies to all your attacks and requires no concentration, just your bonus action, no spell slots and it can then be stacked with zephyr strike. It's a 2turn setup and there is no reason to use on weak enemies, but on boss monsters, you start dealing some nice damage. Now the ranger I play is melee, so I tend to avoid concentration spells unless they are things like zephyr strike, but for a ranged ranger and with the option for casting hunter's mark you provided I must agree it is under par.

I don’t think the Druid list is good. They have too many good concentration options and not enough good non concentration options especially for their second level slots

See it's cool, the problem i have with min/maxing is that it requires a lot of metagame and/or creates metas that make stuff boring, you will always have to pick crossbow and crossbow expert, always play gloomstalker and that's not fun- besides I've seen people pointing here that "it's good to track BBEG who always escape" then the counter argument being "use entangle" and then someone points that a villain who always escapes would have teleport/misty step kinda spells, and the counter argument being "half of the enemies in the book don't have" how would your character know that? It kills the fun because always winning isn't fun, having a character who is always deciding things because of the rules is boring as hell, i can get behind the idea of cool builds and such, but extremes like this aren't fun

hunters mark does also have utility as well. Not all enemy's will want to fight to the death, if they have a sense of self preservation then someone will want to run away eventually, at which point if you have hunters mark on them you can have an easier time tracking them back to their secret base. Or if your hunting for food, you have an easier time not loosening your prey. Sure they are niche uses, but extra utility.

Alright Alright. I'm convinced. Hmark sucks.

First: I have to thank you for reminding me of the "Flavor is free" bit, it will help me greatly with a future video Second: Hey Pack, i am using your gloomstalker build in one table and the GM nerfed Goodberry (i can not give it to downed allies and it's implied that eating more than one at time have side effects). Any other spell recommendation to compensate for this loss in healing? ( i am planning to multiclass into cleric after level 9, any domain recommendations too?)

Beautiful. Subscribed.

i think this is a rigid view of hunter's mark as well as using it sub-optimally. i would use hunter's mark on a bbeg that could possibly live to a 2nd round. i wouldn't use it on minions. i would use cbe on minions (though i ask why kill minions in the 1st place, let the blaster/controller handle it. as a striker the bbeg, is the 1st priority). at lower levels and in a vaccum (pure ranger), i agree hunter's mark is worse than cbe. once you get to higher levels and multiclassing though or taking subclasses like gloomstalker (who gives you advantage so that dmg is higher than what you projected as accuracy is higher), hunter's mark starts to pull ahead. this is even more relevant for the popular fighter/gloomstalker/assassin multiclass (highly regarded as the best martial nova in the game). lets say at level 10: action: extra attackx2 + dread ambusher action surge: extra attackx2 + dread ambusher bonus action? if i use cbe, it deals lower burst dmg overall (the whole point of a gloomstalker). it'll most likely be 1d6+4 + any magic weapon bonus. as auto-crit that's 2d6+4. let's say we picked up sharpshooter then that's 2d6+10. average dmg of 17 from your bonus action. hunter's mark on the other hand will be 2d6 per attack that hits so that's 42 dmg on average. even if we didn't get surprise, that's still 21 average dmg. way above 17. even if we add in favored foe, that's just 19.5. let's factor in enemy ac of 18. 75% chance to hit without sharpshooter or advantage. with sharpshooter that's 50% chance to hit. even on a 50% chance to hit that's 3 attacks and 21 dmg from hunter's mark which supercedes cbe. but what if we have advantage (as we should being a gloomstalker/sharpshooter user)? hence a 75% chance to hit. that means 4 attacks hit at least and that's 28 dmg. but here's the kicker. hunter's mark isn't really adding just 1d6-2d6 per attack. since you're not using cbe, it allows you to use longbows which ups your dmg a bit if you have 6 attacks on round 1. about an extra 6-12 points of dmg on average. and if we aren't using sharpshooter, that's a 94% chance to hit with advantage. most likely all attack will hit so you're gaining 2 attacks worth of dmg by giving up 40 dmg from sharpshooter. this could be a better tradeoff assuming 1-2 of those extra attacks hitting are the 1d8 bonus dmg ones from dread ambusher. where cbe starts to shine is sustained. meaning you don't move your hunter's mark on round 2. once you lose all those extra burst attacks, that's when you use cbe (if you stuck with hand crossbows) or use other bonus action/concentration options over hunter's mark such as favored foe, zephy strike, etc. in conclusion, both are good options for your bonus action. cbe works better as sustained, having 2 or less attacks and having multiple targets. hunter's mark shines as burst (especially if you have auto-crits which isn't tough to generate with umbral sight solo/with party cooperation), having 1 high priority target and as you get more attacks. saying one is worse than the other sheds more light on ones preferences/play experiences that the actual value of each. each should be used when it would be tactical/optimal and has good value in those particular situations/playstyles. i also wouldn't be casting entangle with my 1st level slots unless i was a wis-based ranger and most wis based rangers aren't martial attackers anyway considering cbe/hunter's mark. most are caster types leveraging off druidic warrior and usually are beastmasters/swarmkeepers. i'd use my slots on hunter's mark and zephyr strike. hail of thorns when it's applicable (multiple enemies to be hit). Conjure animals is a very swingy spell. Depends if the DM picks powerful options (as the DM can pick CR 0 RAW). I've seen alot of dms just pick 8 CR 0s and nicer DMs pick randomly via a table or pick the CR the players wants but picks according to what appropriate to the environment. Barely anyone really lets the player choose and that kills the power of the spell. DMs who let the player choose open up a can of worms once conjure woodland beings and pixies come online. Comparing cbe/hunters mark to sleet storm, fog cloud and hypnotic pattern is kind of confusing as the point of that is control/debuff. The point of cbe/hunters mark is dmg. Goodberry is also a pointless comparison or at least confusing. Its about healing. Arent we comparing which is optimal for dmg? I've been pretty much in agreement with most of your vids (binged watched almost everything now) its just i think this one is painting the wrong picture, especially for an optimizer.

I just started playing a ranger and this is GOLD - This VID!

Zephyr Strike is my favourite use for the ranger's bonus action.

This was really good

Looking over the action economy and wording of Crossbow Expert, Ammunition, Bonus Actions, and Object Interaction, you'd effectively need to juggle your main weapon to pull it off. Or in other words you'd need to Attack (Sheath), Bonus Action one turn then, Bonus Action, Attack (Draw) the second. So you'd have to make all your Primary Attacks together before or after using your Hand Crossbow, and would have to mirror that the second turn (do the opposite), so there is a minor limitation.

I use hunter's mark while stalking. If you can set it up before combat starts on the leader of what you are fighting. Or if someone flees combat, like a bandit that runs away. This will let you use the tracking function of the mark and lead you to their den or base. I treat it as a utility spell as much as a damage boost.

Played a druid with telekinesis bc the dm said, "grab a free feat, nothings banned.. but try not to take lucky" so I figured, "hmm, how can I weaponize my bonus action in a way I never have" so I casted spike growth on some oversized charging velociraptors. the second they tried running through the spikes, I casted entangle, and used my bonus action to essentially make a blender. That and the warlock teamed up with me for some pushing eldritch blasts that turned our opponents into mist in literally less than a full round of combat. less than 6 seconds. Damage solves sure, but get even slightly creative with how you can use your actions and self combo to be invincible.

Abolishing falacies is the best birthday gift Brian. How did you know thats exacly what i wished for?

Hunters Mark is better on Fighter or Monk because they get a million attacks and can proc it a million times.

So, with Tasha's out I created a new homebrew for the beast master ranger. The homebrew is rather simple your 3rd level ability allows you to cast the summon beast spell as a bonus action without using a spell slot or concentration a number of times equal to your proficiency modifier, and add your wisdom modifier to the AC of the summoned beast along with adding 5 times your ranger level to the beasts HP. The other abilities are redesigned to fit this change, and you can eventually summon two beasts in this manner making it a rather potent ability along with fixing many of the issues with the beast master ranger.

Honestly i just went monster slayer and always went to slayer's prey. Sure my first attack is the only one with a 1d6 but its not concentration and i can spam it at the cost of a bonus action which means within turn one i can attack twice with one having the boost and then next turn i can activate another spell which will stack since again slayer's prey isnt concetration.

I'm 6th level totem warrior barbarian and 3rd level hunter conclave ranger. I use hunters mark along side colossus slayer. I also took the two weapon fighting style and the dual wielder feat. In one attack I can attack three times. Multi attack plus bonus action offhand attack. I have a +1 battle axe in my dominant hand and a +2 blood spear in my off hand. I can do up to 3d8 + 2d6 + 10(12 if favored enemy) in a turn. Plus my hunters mark and colossus slayer increases my chance to kill with my blood spear meaning I can potentially heal myself for 2d6 damage per turn. That works out pretty sweet when fighting several enemies that are relatively weak compared to me. Like the session I just played in which we were fighting dozens of twig, needle, and vine blights

This spell can be useful for a samurai fighter. Like they can perform 11 attacks in one turn and get a bonus of 11d6 from hunters mark. Especially if they get crusher with gives advantage after a crit with elvin accuracy. Give than pole arm master and you get another fighting beside two weapon fighting and get dueling for bonus 2 per attack.

This question should be analysed and answered level by level and what will you do before having the famous feat. Remember you can swap spell at each level so taking and later removing HM is possible. It is important to take into account disadvantage on the handcrossbow shoot due to long range (9m or more) or the danger of beeing at ennemy close range, the ammo avalaible quantity on the long run. It is also important to identify the population of ennemy you face depending on your DM style (one big guy or swarming kobold).

can we kill the ranger's starting equipment... forcing you to take arrows and a bow.. like yes ranger, range, use bow.. NO! be the Melee druid, the Nature Paladin

You do good stuff kobold.

you have changed my mind good sir i use to always think it was a must have for a ranger.

I have a friend who re-did hunters so first, it's not a spell but a class ability. Second it deals bonus damage that scales with level so at level one you deal an additional 1d4 and at level 20 you deal an additional 1d12. At first you use a bonus action to use this feature like rage and at around 11th you can do it for free. And finally you have advantage on tracking and can learn either a damage vulnerability, resistance, or immunity

Well, fuck. I'm convinced. I gotta change my stance on Hunter's Mark and Hex

A longbow with hunter's mark and extra attack does 2d8+2d6+6 damage or 15.4 damage on average. A hand crossbow with no hunter's mark and crossbow expert deals 3d6+9 damage or 13.65 damage on average. And crossbow expert isn't free instead you could have gotten a +1 to your attack modifier and damage. So that brings the longbow hunter's mark build to 2d8+2d6+8 or 18 damage per round. That's an increase of 4.35 damage per turn, plus it frees up your bonus action on turns where your target is still alive.

Remember when wotc nerfed favoured foe because they thought being able to use two hunters marks a turn would be broken?

I will admit I still have to wonder it plays in regards to per hit damage, do any spell have similar uses. Specifically because I've wanted to make a David vs Goliath inspired halfling that just donks with a sling. Probably a paladin ranger cross class but I'd have to hit the books for reference and really building it up.

The only issue is getting your hands on a magical hand crossbow. If you need to bypass damage resistance you'll either have to hope the dm hand placed you a tailored magic weapon or you'll have to use a 2nd level slot and concentration just to use magic weapon. Magical bows have the advantage of actually existing in the printed modules

do you get more with this if you use a fighter with Fey Touched? As this is what I use for my martial character or a rogue.

I didnt even picked it up with my druidic warrior - there are soooo many spells with concentration i rather use (ah and yeah with shillelag and a wisdom build im more like.. meele) Also the Alternative Thingy is also concentration that gives you bonus dmg. It replaces Fav Enemy I think.

This is why i like the new drake warden. I can use spells and my drake that does the same damage as a level one hunters mark when you get it

I'm currently playing a Horizon Walker, and Planar Warrior is great because while you might have something better to do with your bonus action, it's basically an all-caps announcement that you don't have to take Hunter's Mark. More than half of the Ranger spell list is concentration, you gotta keep your options open.

This was a really good video, thank you for mathing this out!

It does appear that Hex/HM sounds like it's sub-optimal on a straight warlock or Ranger build respectively, but I would love to hear your thoughts on using either of these spells on a multiclass build that can incorporate 3 or more hits per turn, like a monk using flurry of blows. Surely an additional 6d6 (beyond normal damage) over the course of two turns has to be very beneficial. But maybe the math proves me wrong?

Listening to this video feels like someone trying to talk to me in my sleep

I did some math because I wanted to cross-check the numbers here and it looks like the build you lay out is suboptimal for Kobolds until 12th level, at which point it surpasses the other options, and it's worse for other races. Sharpshooter is the real standout here too, especially with kobolds but also on everyone else. After 12th level SS+CBE overtakes every option except for SS+CBE+HM, but at that point you likely have better things to do with your concentration. There are two important points here, both of which I would love to see a video about: feats are not free, and always find something to do with your Bonus Action. Having a +3 modifier at level 8 means hitting 10% less often and losing 2 points of damage per attack relative to taking straight ASIs. While they aren't exciting the numerical benefit of 5% more damage because of 5% more hits cannot be underestimated, and most feats don't beat that 5% test. Because of that 5% increase, Hunter's mark outperforms every other option except HM+CBE (which is even more resource intensive and has the juggling problems you highlight) until 12th level, at which point you should be taking a feat because you can't get a 22 Dex. Kobolds are an exception to this rule because of pack tactics, but mathematically CBE still underperforms relative to SS until t3 play. That said, if you aren't consistently doing something with your bonus action, you are leaving damage on the table. Whether it's hunter's mark to add 1d6 to your 2 attacks or CBE to do 1d6+dex, do something to add utility or DPR. You can email me at Flitz.colnio@gmail.com if you want to see the numbers, or just work it out in excel.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who realized this. I play ranger a lot and can rarely even justify even preparing hunters mark.

What are your thoughts on ensnaring strike and zephyr strike as alternatives for early concentration?

What about beyond the 30ft range for hand crossbows? It CBE still better than HM at 90+ft?

Huntersmark shouldn't be a spell but a class feature without concentration

Hunter's Mark plays into that stealthy long-range sniper fantasy. I'm running a Lvl 10 (5 Gloomstalker / 3 Assassin / 2 Fighter) nova build at the moment. Hunter's Mark adds up to 12d6 (42) on a surprise round :)

It always did look funny from the moment I started playing ranger in my second campaign... I never understood why everyone encouraged wasting a spell slot thats 3.5 damage only if you actually hit... and if I'm a two weapon ranger, that bonus action is for my other weapon. Why waste my bonus action to waste a spell slot on a wasted spell known?

If you're using any kind of two handed bow, you can shoot the hand crossbow every other turn because you need to stow the hcb in order to use the longbow on your next turn, which then prevents you from using it to attack that turn. Other then that, yeah hcb is better for melee rangers, but then its just better to go twf and ignore the feat tax.

As a DM who loves putting huge monsters with giant pools and barely fair numbers in front of my munchkin players, HMark is the least broken part of the ranger multi in my game, but after a few rounds its alright given his build.

It’s good when in an ambush situation, which makes sense for a hunter. Combine the extra 1d6 with an extra attack from crossbow master plus advantage from being hidden and you have reasonably good low level alpha to start off a surprise round which remains a passive +1d6 for the rest of the fight or until you either lose concentration or determine that another concentration spell is needed. Attacking at least twice a round and with a 50% chance to hit means you rack up on average 1d6 extra damage per round, so in six rounds of combat it comes to 6d6 average. It’s not a perfect solution to every combat. but it can be good if you put yourself into the right situation to use it, and a ranger has all the tools to put themselves into that situation.

The druid spell list ranger has acess is alright early but it becomes trash due to how spellcasting scales, crossbow expert costs a feat , and those are not free especialy without a free feat at lvl 1, also druid list is good for how soon you get the spells rangers get most too late and they lack choice

You know what does make Hunter's Mark/Hex optimal? The Gunner feat with a musket. If you use the +1 to raise your Dexterity to 18 at level 4, it comes out slightly ahead of Crossbow Expert. That is assuming your DM allows firearms, though.

So as a player I agree with most of this, thanks to the favored foe HM becomes basically useless, especially at higher levels. Lots of good spells to replace that HM slot with. However as a DM I disagree with the "flavor is free" thing. I let player flavor weapons all the time, but I will never let my player reflavor a hand crossbow (one handed ranged weapon) into any kind of normal bow as, no matter how you slice it, to fire a bow you need two appendages, be it hands, feet, talons whatever. Even with that though everything else is quite good.

Damage calc i used for this is 3.5 average from d6 + 5 damage from modifiers assuming Dex 20 and +10 for Sharpshooter 3.5+5+10 I have a CBE fighter 12/Gloomstalker 4 (I'm assuming this is a boss battle) so in the first turn of combat I get 5 attacks (average damage of 1 attack is 18.5) with CBE dread ambusher 9 attacks with action surge these are all with sharpshooter btw. If i do use HM I remove 1 attack at the first turn making it 8 attacks instead of 9 but (again assuming everything hits) adding a potential 8d6(average damage of 28) adding all of these up CBE build no HM 9 attacks = 9d6+135 = 166.5 rounded up 167 CBE build with HM 8 attacks = 16d6+120 = 176 If you compare both damages the difference is only 9 damage but do remember that if one of your attacks dont hit not only are you losing 1d6 from HM but also 1d6+15 from your potential bonus action attack So the conclusion i have reached is If you are 100%sure all of your attacks will hit (FYI: its Impossible) then theoretically HM is better because you do 9 more damage which isn't a lot. But if you actually think about it that bonus action attack will more often than not generate more damage than an unreliable HM.

HM can be worthwhile against a big sack of hit points. Your example against mooks is correct but not the whole story. Gloom stalkers get dread ambush anyway so the additional attack evens out the BA setup. And on following turn, an extra 3d6 is nothing to scoff at. Echoing the comment that you can’t feed a good berry to unconscious allies. Whereas healing word can do that from range for a BA. Finally, the Ranger spell list can be useful in a vacuum, but compared to what full casters are doing at the same PC level, it quickly becomes diminishing returns. That said, you can get a lot of mileage with Zephyr Strike, which is a criminally underrated spell.

1D&D UA: To Avernus with your math! It's a class feature now... we'll make it so that ALL rangers cast Hunter's Mark regardless!

Telling that story while Amazing Grace is playing on bagpipes in the background definitely cast a much more dramatic light on it

"These are big moves compared to this silly 1d6, throw it away." But I need a d6 for crossbow expert.

I can’t begin to remember the last time I played a character who’s main stat was 16. Even using regular point buy you can bring it up to 17 by level 4 you can take it to an 18 at least. I rarely play with anything less than a 19 or 20 in my main stat. After 7 years of playing this game, that has always been the case. A ranger with a 20 in dex and the ranged fighting style has a +10 to hit by level 5. If you’re a ranger missing your shots, you are either using sharp shooter, or the dice gods are really fucking against you that day.