That and abilities from lower levels are more viable for multiclassing making them better for higher levels as well due to that option.

@@Votuse yeah. Anything a class/subclass offers at or before level 3, in my mind, is more important than anything else, since those decide the things a character can count on, and that can be splashed onto other builds. Anything past level 3, and definitely past 5 gets shaky. Short of a few carefully planned dual class builds, those are only things a character who is pretty defined by the class is going to get, and start to enter the realm of characters not actually achieving those goals, even if everything goes well. Like, my favorite example, Monk 2. Monk 2 isn't very good, but, it's only two levels for a nonmagical, basic 10 move speed. If that 10 move speed is what makes your character work, it's a dip that's feasible and doesn't detract too much from whatever else your character wants, in short or long term.

@@aprinnyonbreak1290 This is exactly why when I plan on dual classed multiclasses that have big investment into both classes to to at least try and mimic the powerspikes that regular single-classing gets you

@@aprinnyonbreak1290 As a quick example, my favorite multiclass is any combination of a 9 Fighter and 11 Barbarian but they always start off going into 6 barbarian and then 3 fighter. Depending on the fighter subclass, the 3 levels of Fighter will more than make up for the loss of 7-9 barbarian features

@@aprinnyonbreak1290 A 2 level dip when you can take mobile?

Straight up punches way harder than one too! (If you add a little smite). 😆

@@probablythedm1669 Seriously! A level 11 Monk does 1d8+Dex with a punch and a level 11 Paladin does Str+1d8 radiant with a punch. The Monk gets 3 attacks (4 if they spend a Ki), but the Paladin can also expend a spell slot on a confirmed hit to boost their damage by a minimum of 2d8. Without a weapon a Paladin can do just about as much damage as a Monk. That's how bad Monks are.

@@probablythedm1669 Technically you can't smite on punches according to sage advice. Smite adds to the weapon damage, and fists are not weapons.

@@KaitlynBurnellMath from what I've read you can smite on an unarmed attack if you attack with a natural weapon, so it should be possible for an Aarakocra, Centaur, Dhampir, Leonin, Lizardfolk, Minotaur, Satyr, Shifter - Longtooth, Simic hybrid - with Grappling Appendages, Tabaxi, or Tortle. Then again, it's a weapon attack then (I think) and not an unarmed attack... So, strictly speaking, I guess the monk is still the second best at punching (since fighters get the unarmed fighting style, which deals 1d8+STR at level 1)?

@@probablythedm1669 Monk is still #1 at punching because their unarmed strikes count as magical for bypassing resistances. (That said, doesn't mean focusing on unarmed strikes is a good idea for a monk. On a monk, weapon attacks tend to deal about 30%-50% more damage than their unarmed strikes depending on level and magic weapons available).

Redempdion: A paladin who realized that he lived a life of slaying goblins and kicking ass, so he vowed to dedicate himself to be the shield of the party, gaining protective and abjurative abilities... *WICH THEY USE TO SLAY MORE GOBLINS AND KICK MORE ASS*

It's funny how well the Oath of Redemption is suited to the standard rip and tear playstyle of Paladins. Thematically though, they might be one of the best candidates for Blessed Warrior builds to focus on Charisma.

Also, note that as written, noticing the presence of strong good and evil are subject to neither the action nor cover restrictions. RAW, if the paladin smells something foul that no-one else does, it tells you there's "strong evil" somewhere nearby even if it doesn't give you specifics like what or location, but that's enough info to get everyone to draw weapons and be ready for an ambush.

But, don't forget, some OFFICIAL Wizards campaigns outright ban the use of Divine Sense. I've basically written it off as a useful ability for this reason.

@@FighterDokenIf WOTC bans it, it must be fun 😂

How did you find the fear based effects in that campaign against the enemy types? That's the one thing that holds me back in conquest paladin is that fear is resisted a reasonable amount

@@larryBOTS1 That is true and given the nature of the enemies in Curse of Strahd, you will probably run into more than are resistant to it than not. But I found it an excellent tool in my arsenal. Melee and Smite get bonuses for Undead, and when there are living opponents then the Fear has been a cool tool to use. I think I've only used it twice though, and only one of those times did it basically end the encounter. But having a potential to do that is pretty awesome. I have used the +10 hit more often, turning misses into hits on big bads that NEED to eat a FULL Smite ASAP. Also, the Spiritual Weapon has put in some work in some of the bigger fights, so I have found it to be a much better spell than Treantmonk gave it credit for (in my experience so far).

@@wraithalcon Not to spoil the content but almost anything that matters is immune to both fear and cannot be turned.

@@nonenone4461 Of course. The Fear effect can trivialize other encounters leading up to that one though. If you play in games where you can not rest at your leisure, then conserving the party's resources by potentially taking out a small fight with this ability can save those resources for later encounters. In terms of Action Economy, if Fear can take out at least 1 enemy for 2 rounds then it is a win. Tagging multiple enemies for multiple rounds can save Spell Slots, HP, and Charged Items.

Nice. I can really see that.

I've been playing DnD since I was in college (over a decade) and I've never gotten past lvl 12.

@@seaperson5704 i never got the chance to play earlier editions. (Bought a bunch of books for 3.5 that never got used.) Did get to play Robotech all through highschool with a splash of Starwars. Whoo... now I feel old haha.

I feel like this is really a YMMV option. I've been playing for years, and most of my games get at least to level 15. Only a couple have gotten to 20, but still.

@@kyleflanagan963 Very much so. You are definitely in the minority with those numbers though.

@@kyleflanagan963 same for me. My friends and I worked around work and family and we all play on Tuesday for3-6 hours. We’ve played 4 total campaigns together (5 if you include current) 1 got to 20. 3 got to 17. One party wiped at 15 and we ended the campaign there (one of our friends didn’t make the best DM so we moved on to another campaign lol) and our current we are up to 12 now

If he had a horse, but yeah that's basically when I would use it. If you don't have magically enhanced str you might use it to negate the -5 of gwm

exactly; the situation where you just don't have an enemy in range actually comes up sometimes and is perfect for this.

I use this in tandem to cast a buff spell as a bonus action, like shield of faith or divine favor. Ex: Horde of zombies approaching? Sacred weapon + divine favor + GWM means you'll likely gibb them on contact without them getting their undead fortitude.

I have a buddy who's going hexadin, leaning toward devotion paladin bc the channel divinity on top of hex warrior would basically let him double his attack modifier for that minute, which is insane

I made a similar comment before checking yours. I had that experience in a pirate themed campaing I was in: the party's paladin would always ready his sacred musket whenever a hostile ship approached us. It really caught everyone off guard the first time he did it and became one of the most memorable moments of the few games we played.

I would argue that paladins are best martials at levels 7-10, at 1-6 Barbarians perform way better and after 11 the fighter pain train comes online. Paladins have a lot of resources and features to remmember so they are not exactly new player friendly, but I agree that they can provide lots of opportunities and help to learn how to roleplay (since they have a vague requirement to be LG or NG).

@@MSDoL Barbarians are better tanks and Fighters eventually do more damage, but paladins are the more rounded and versatile. Are great for new players because while they could dip in spellcasting if it feels daunting they could reliably smite, also self healing is great for newbies.

@@Ciberbuster Barbarians also do significantly more damage at the levels 1-6, that is the other main reason they are my pick. This also allows them to control the battlefield by killing anyone besides the BBEG in 1 to 2 turns. And I am speaking about new players from the experience of my friends, who started to DnD recently. Though their number isn't massive to prove that every new player is that way, they all struggle to remmember even 3-4 mechanics of their character, so paladins can be rough. Though I agree on the point you make, that they can just focus their attention on 1-2 mechanics and paladins allow it more naturally than most other classes.

They also get their magic at a pace that's easy for a new player to wrap their head around, and if they decide they don't care care spells? They're not "trapped" in class choice, because they can just turn their spell slots into smites.

Meh. I find Paladins are overpraised. they are a MAD class that have to decide on a direction but that people review them like they're good at everything at once. I just spent weeks building different versions in preparation for a new campaign. They're balanced. They aren't better. 5e is well designed that way.

Conq's Armor of Agathy's applies to the steed as well (I think)

@@rlira0908 i see no reason why it would?

@@nathankiefer9323 Find Steed allows any spell that you cast that targets only you to also affect your steed while you are mounted.

I played a elven accuracy dex based vengeance paladin with 3 levels of gloom stalker ranger and a scimitar of sharpness, would two weapon fight when I had a bonus action to spare. I was critting all the time. Ironically I would frequently forget to divine smite on them because I was rolling so many dice. Had a lot of fun with that character.

This is one of the reasons I've always loved playing a Paladin in a new table. When DMs try to dick me like this I get to talk about ethical theory (might as well put those college classes to use lol). In this case, what one god says is right and law doesn't necessarily mean so, there are evil gods, and some god saying something isn't a law - particularly to people that don't tailor their laws around religion. If said Paladin doesn't make their oath to that god, then what that god ethically thinks, let alone says (because manipulation exists) doesn't matter. You're upholding an oath, not a requirement to appease every good, neutral, evil, lawful, and chaotic greater diety all at the same time. But sure DM, tell me more about how following the ideals of fairness and a goodly god suddenly gets me hit with an evil-based subclass for not following the word of a god that doesn't apply to me. Need me to change alignment to Chaotic Evil since not following some rando god's word makes me non-Lawful too? Does my Paladin suddenly start breaking laws and selfishly dicking people over bc they don't simp every god out there? Once you talk about the implications of these ethical requirements involved in these rulings with universality, the ridiculousness of them becomes extremely apparent.

@@anniedarkheart5224 you asume DMs out there dont use the "Im teh DM fuck you thats why" logic. Which VERY MUCH undercuts the fun whenever you are playing a character that gets its power from an outside source

I can't imagine playing with a subhuman dm and deciding not to leave on the spot.

@@flaisemoroz7800 the amount of "subhuman DMs" I have found is a very high % of the total number of different DMs I played under. And there is even more that I just witnessed, but didnt actually paly under

@@texteel Did I assume that?

Yeah that's fair, but I still think it should be a bonus action.

@@ulxtmx5018 , eh, I don't know about that. Sacred Weapon tends to get compared to Vow of Enmity because their to-hit bonuses tend to work out similarly mathematically. However, VoE only targets one enemy ever, while SW works against all enemies in the encounter. And also because SW isn't advantage, that means it stacks with any advantage from other sources and doesn't run into the possibility of it being rendered redundant as VoE sometimes does. With those advantages in mind, SW being an action is probably pretty fair.

Sacred Weapon also works very well with a ranged weapon. Since most Paladins have low dex scores, using a bow isn’t usually an option. But in encounters where it’s very difficult or impossible, or too dangerous to get in close, Sacred Weapon is a great way to make your Paladin still deal some decent damage at a range.

And this is why find steed is so important for a paladin.

​@@Nickelback8469a strength paladin can easily use a javelin instead of a bow. 30/60 thrown weapon range, so the same as a hand crossbow, but uses the strength modifier for hit/damage

Came here looking for this ☺️

Yeah, I noticed that thanks to this comment. Makes the feature a lot less useful. Which sucks because I just started a campaign to use it.

That is stupid and any good DM should allow it.

the Channel divinity sacred weapon is so good with a great weapon master too and at level 15 disadvantage attacks from like all the main dnd monsters ... excuse me !!

100% agree. Charm Immunity means immune to Dominate Person & Monster, Suggestion & Mass Suggestion, Hypnotic Pattern, any vampire charms, lots of bard spells, and then any other creature charm effects. I'm playing a lvl 15 Devotion Paladin and cannot overstate how solid she is. Being immune to Charms and Fear effects, heavy armor 1h/shield, and paladin saves means the only way(s) to take me out are Int saves against stun, Power Word Stun, Maze, or massive damage on Dex saves

There are plenty of fights it will do nothing, but when it does something it's probably completely overturning an otherwise devastating encounter.

I imagine that the reason it's so underrated is because a lot of DMs know that charm effects would wreck their party, and so they just don't use them, so that their party can actually win. This may have deceived a lot of players into thinking that charm effects are rare, or not powerful.

@@logicseeker3770 You have no idea how many times i have been completely wrecked by a charm effect, i'm not even talking about aboleths, succubus or vampires who can all charm you for 24 hrs with no repeating save, but just enemy spell casters with mass suggestion and hypnotic pattern.

You ain’t the only one.

The less I get to play the more fun it is to hear discussions on options and mechanics I doubt I'll get to use 😂 though that could just be my reasoning

@@sharkforce8147 Definitely, which is why I like the aura of devotion. It's rather specific, but it totally shuts down something that could totally ruin you.

@@sharkforce8147 SHARK FORCE GO! Ah, I got nothing, I just wanted to say that. It’s a dope name.

Agreed. Vengeance Paladins are the best boss killers in the game. Putting them in B Tier is ridiculous

flying speed

@@frungggg what about flying speed?

@@motokuchoma what can the paladin do?

@@frungggg did you realize i can play a winged tiefling or aaracokra?

It's really better suited to direct it all on one ally or yourself for a nice chunk of Temp HP. Trying to spread it amongst even a small party won't do much. The way I adjusted it in my games, I have it give temporary HP equal to the damage of the Divine Smite before resistances or vulnerabilities + your Paladin Level. So you can spread it to party members more effectively or give a bonkers amount of Temp HP to one person, even more so if you crit. Is that a bit much? Maybe. But it's fun, and you have an additional tactical choice there. Wait for a Smite crit and gain a massive bonus

To be clear, it is still decent for in-combat temporary hit points.

At first i was like no way.. Then i kept LISTENING and i couldn't un hear it. "But its okay you're a paladin." I was like jesus christ.

Kinda defeats the entire purpose of a Subclass ranking list if you give bonuses for base class. :P

@@schwann145 It's because he's ranking them alongside ALL the subclasses in the game in terms of power level. If you want to see people just rank the subclasses of the individual class by themselves watch the dungeon dudes.

@@schwann145 Disagree, in fact, I think just ranking how good a sub class is without the baseclass is ridiculous. Seriously, how is that information usefull to anyone

I get the impression watchers is the opposite of how you describe it. Their CD for advantage on wis/int/cha saves has tons of applications with Wisdom being the second most common saving throw, and they have the most versatile Turn CD since it targets fey, fiends, celestials, aberrations, and elementals, whereas most other subclases only get to turn 2 types of creatures. Also watcher aura of proficiency bonus to initiative is universally good

Turn the tide is much worse than healing word. Since it requires the target to hear you. Unconscious allies at 0 HP can not hear you. Bringing up unconscious allies is the best use of (mass) healing word.

I think the Channel is very campaign and map dependent. Most of my experience has been in small maps where 30 ft is almost if not the entire battlefield, so the only way the front line could actually shield the back line would be for them to stand on total opposite sides of the map, which isn't really practical. In a large open battlefield, where the back line can pull away to further than 30 feet, it does become a lot more useful.

While I agree, it’s useful in certain circumstances and the spell list is very good topped by Spirit Guardians

@@Melorific Unconscious characters can still hear, it does not say that they cannot hear or are deafened in Appendix A. If your DM (like mine did once) rules that you cannot bring up downed enemies they're just plain wrong and you should show them the studies/reports of people in comas who were able to hear and later remember conversations that took place in their presence.

@@Ivaneus27 "An unconscious creature is incapacitated, can't move or speak, and is unaware of its surroundings." Unaware of its surroundings. In other words, you're not seeing or hearing anything. You are the one plain wrong here. Being knocked out to an inch of your life also isn't the same as being in a coma.

Its stupid wording and any good DM should allow you to take that damage, especially since it also can’t be reduced, which is also a stupid stipulation.

That is what turned me away from conquest. It seems like it would be amazing early on but if you started fighting daemons and the like in the mid and later game seems the subclass would fail. Still a paladin though so still good.

@@nathanaelpoole1369 Yeah, our campaign is about planar travel and fiends are the main enemy, so it wasn't doing too much for me. Paladin will always be good, but definitely hinges on campaigns more than other classes I've played.

@@remyb6854 Because that's not what happened. Subclasses don't come with built in back stories lol. Thank you for trying to gatekeep something so random, though, groups must love you.

i think, the problem with this, is that you can probably only get 1 turn of kiting with this at most. After that, they are gonna have enough movement to reach you even after the extra move, or just ignore you and go for someone else. Sentinel is still something you probably want with PAM, but then if you use a reach polearm, you don't benefit from the level 7 ability at all (unless they also have reach), because their speed is 0 anyways. I think it can be interesting in the case of a non-reach polearm + shield, and combined with sentinel though.

@@chopcooey I never actually thought about it like that, I might have to steal that idea. I am playing an Veng. Paladin with PAM rn and I wanna try out your idea.

@@christianmartinez442 Cool. vengeance is a special one, because first, PAM is a must for level 7, no questions. But then there is 2 options. Reach vs 1-hand+shield. For the reach option, sentinel steps on the toes of level 7, so might as well pick another subclass for this. So we might get reach without sentinel and get GWM for the really good synergy with vow of enmity. The level 7 will sorta fill in for the sentinel part while not being as good but we save a feat. On the other hand, 1-hand+shield doesn't strictly require sentinel either, but allows you to do PAM+sentinel without reach, which is pretty unique. It's much better against ranged enemies than a reach weapon because they get stuck at 5ft of you with sentinel, rather than 10 ft where they wouldn't suffer disadvantage, so you get better use of sentinel than with reach in those cases. And you get +2AC. The already intensive reaction enable you to move away from the interception fighting style if you were going for that, and while you don't have as high damage as a GWM build, you get to use a better fighting style (dueling), and better synergy with improved smite at level 11 (extra dice on a -5 attack is anti-synergy), and hunter's mark/divine favor.

in terms of damage, i made a calculation to compare the raw damage of 2h polearm vs 1h at level 11 with +8 to-hit for an enemy with 16AC, which arguably is the kind of target you would seek for vow of enmity. Without advantage, GWM polearm has 5% more damage, and 25% with advantage. Of course the difference would be higher with enemies with lower AC. An enemy with 12AC, GWM gets 21% extra damage and 70% if you have advantage. Of course an enemy with low AC tends to not be worth the channel divinity, but depending on the party you can get other sources of advantage. This highlights the thing you get from going 2h, at the cost of 1 feat, +2 AC, and potential magic item slot on your shield.

@@remyb6854 unfortunately, relentless avenger does not work with warcaster. It allows to cast a spell in place of an OA, but relentless avenger says "when you hit a creature with an OA". You don't hit an enemy with an OA, because warcaster allows you to use your reaction to cast a spell instead of the OA. Same reason why you can't use the feature from sentinel and warcaster at the same time.

When you also account for tenets, watchers starts to look even better. Unlike most paladins that put roleplay restrictions on you or encourage risky/dumb decision makingnthe Watchers tenets just basically say PLAY SMART. Also, Treatmonk is 100% right that the aura of the sentinel is insanely good.

Makes sense to change the feature like this because as Oathbreaker is written, it’s not really intended for players as much for villains who would ally themselves with fiends and undead. If you let a player pick it (or a reflavored version of it) you might as well alter the villainous features to better fit the dark (but not evil) paladin who’s using it

@@arikaaa69 Funny enough, in this D&D-themed interactive I'm part of, I did make an Oath of Death Paladin - farm boy that became an Adventurer, went to a school for it, gets some skeleton minions (Jim, Jeb, and Juanita - don't ask how I came up with those names), and said minions, due to how he treats them, are so loyal, that during one job, when he has entered a place of ill-repute looking for someone (only to find out that the place is run by sucubi that drain folks of their life forces) and ends up captured and gagged, they basically summon themselves due to his life being in danger, take his captors by surprise, and send them back to where they belong.

Kinky

@@ben5056 You bet she is. Loviatar's basically the matron goddess of dominatrices. Give my pally a few minutes alone w/ a prisoner and she'll get whatever information the party needs. Some prisoners even LIKE the interrogation. ;D

@@vaevictusasmadi84 eh eh reminds me of that priest in BG3, RP with the rest group must be amazing

Another option is just get 2-3 levels of undead warlock, get eldritch blast and go CHA build. Keep smite spellslots for more spells with higher DC anyways. With agonizing blast, it does around the same base damage as a regular extra attack anyways, except for things like GWM. But does not cost a full feat, has range and lets you wield a shield. Undead is perfect to proc enemy fear consistently.

@@chopcooey My group doesn't allow multi-classing, so that's a no-go. Besides, Loviatar worshippers actually loathe the undead because they don't feel pain.

Ancients can be exceptionally good in a campaign that's a bit more RP focused where you tend to fight a lot of humanoids, because spells will come up a lot. But as Chris says, it can be very disappointing in a dungeon crawl where none of the monsters use spells.

Spells only matter if the thing is alive 10 smites kill alot

I tend to think the exact opposite. From both as a DM and as a player the biggest factor that differs two paladins from one another is the tenets they will have to follow, and the aura they get at level 7. Most of the CD's don't really matter all that much & spell slots are always for smites in the first two tiers.

@@malmasterson3890 play a vengeance paladin. You have misty step and haste which radically improve your movement regardless of what other casters are up to. Check that against watchers or I think redemption who gets counter spell and you can see how differently these might feel to play. I'm not trying to say the tenents and such don't matter, I'm just reiterating that spell lists make a big difference for half casters in general.

@@kaemonbonet4931 I agree that the vengeance paladin's spell list & CD's are good enough to make an exception, I think Treatmonk should've given them the A ranking, but even then it's not by much. I've seen & played many paladins over the course of 5e and the differences between them in combat is miniscule until you get the aura.

​@@kaemonbonet4931other casters for 1 spell slot higher (and they get the 3rd level slot at the same time paladins get 2nd level) can have a phantom steed for 200ft of movement per round for an hour. That's way way way more benefit than misty step. Even if the steed is killed, it still lasts for another 10 rounds.

Its level 7 aura really needed to be the same size as all other Paladin auras, too. A 10' bonus to speed isn't so good that it needed to be any smaller than the rest.

@@tiradegrandmarshal at least glory is definitely a top pick for a mounted build or a grappling build

Also weird that it uses a bonus action after you’ve hit. I would have either made it a reaction or just use no unit of action economy.

Initiative bonus is one of the most universally powerful features in the game. Advantage on attacks vs one creature once per short rest can make the paladin more offensively powerful. A bonus to initiative that fairly easily applies to the party makes the entire party offensively and defensively more powerful.

@@binolombardi That has not been my experience at the table. Don't get me wrong, it's good, but I don't think it's nearly that good.

@@MithranderGray you had the experience of your whole party getting +3 to +6 initiative every combat encounter and it didn’t go well?

@@MithranderGray Higher initiative means getting a huge AOE or battlefield control spell off before the enemy can do anything, or having your Rogue snipe off a very important enemy straight from the start of the battle. More time for maneuverability, for buffs and debuffs, all before then enemy can do anything to try and debilitate you and the party. Having a bonus to initiative is already strong for Swashbucklers, War Wizards, and Gloomstalkers; this gives it to the entire party. Your spellcasters and nukers will become best friends with you because of this aura.

@@GeminiOrion9 At level 7, with a +3 bonus on a d20 roll, there's only a 15% chance per person affected that aura will even change the initiative order. I've been running D&D for decades, I fully agree that going first is really strong. However a 15% chance that you might go first when you normally wouldn't means that I think their aura is good, but not great. I will admit that I might feel differently with a level 18+ paladin with a 30' range and a +6 bonus, however my recently completed CoS game with a watcher pally PC ended at level 10 with a +4 at ten feet, and that's what I'm basing my opinions on. Sometimes it gave the party a definite edge by letting one or two PCs go slightly earlier, but more often it changed nothing. In my books, that's a high B even with a crap spell list and a weak channel divinity, but it's not an A.

Rangers are mostly fine. It will probably be similar to barbarian or fighter

Tasha's improved Rangers quite a bit. They'll probably cluster around the C tier like the Fighter.

Yup. I personally believe that they were pretty underrated even before Tasha. So many people were focusing on lvl 1 features as if they are the only thing Ranger gets, which is obviously wrong. Yes, getting some useless features doesn't feel good, but overall I don't think Rangers were that worse than Fighters or Barbarians. After Tasha they are perfectly fine I think.

Yeah, it's a ribbon feature, as he said. When the situation comes up, it's useful, but 99% of the time it will never see play. But ribbon features are fine as long as they're accompanied by a more generally useful feature at the same level, such as Lay on Hands at the same Paladin level. A class/subclass is poorly designed when ribbon features are ALL they get at certain levels (see the PHB Ranger, or the Assassin Rogue).

@@tiradegrandmarshal Sort of a niche thing, but I've had my DM reveal that something is odd simply because he had to stop and ask what Divine Sense detected when I asked about certain things.

@WexMajor82 The first tactical (in combat) use of Divine Sense in our Descent into Avernus game (party level 8) was while battling an Orthon, Smiler, and a Cambion (Challenge Ratings of 10, 7, and 5). The Orthon has 'Invisibility Field', allowing it to vanish each round and give itself Advantage on its next attack… which our DM 'blessed' by conveying player-like Sneak Attack to its already frightening capabilities. So when it Critically Hit our Artificer it was savage… Using Divine Sense in combat might not normally a good thing (taking an entire Action) but it allowed him to direct the others where to attack, even if at Disadvantage. But more importantly it enabled him to catch up and Great Weapon Master + Smite it into the ground with two attacks, taking away the hefty amount of it's remaining life. As a parting gift our DM let it use a Reaction (after it was already dead / in the process of dying, and well outside the statblock condition) to trigger 'Explosive Retribution' as an AoE. And doubled the dice rolled for it… I mean, I'm afraid every fight we have… but I hope the DM is having fun!

@@rayquinn1974 Our DM stopped using invisible monsters when he noticed that any of us was capable of detecting invisibility in a way or the other, but that was a smart way to use divine sense.

Good to know. Has the potential friendly fire from the second channel ability been a concern? Edit: On the oathbreaker, that is

No offense but I disagree. I think you are right on the spell list. Conuqests spell list is Amazaing, but even without the additional spell lists Paladins have all the spells that they really need on their normal spell list, it is a minor factor for me although I know that spiritual Weapon and Armor of Agathys are amazing to have. But as far as the features go, they are avout even, because Conquest starts out very strong, but becomes weaker and weaker in comparison as you lvl up, since a lit of enemies on higher lvls are immune to the frightened condition. Watchers on the other hand is the exact opposite as far as scaling is concerned. It starrs out weaker, since its channel divinies will not always be useful throughout the early lvls and Watchers Will costs an action. However, as you lvl up saving throws targeting int/wis/cha saves become a lot more frequent and dangerous and can easily take several party members out by an instant. So as you lvl up the channel divinty becomes wxtrenely powerful and considering that you also have your aura of protection, you basically ensure that your party makes their mental saves almost all of the time and saving throws are the most dangerous issues in high tier play. Also you underestimate the initistive bonus from its aura. At low lvls it does not have biggest impact, but as you lvl up winning initiative becomes really important. Most combazs do not last longer than 4-5 rounds and if you go first you often win it within the furst round, and may it be just because your spellcaster could get his fireball or AoE cc of before the enemies get the opportunity to act.

Going to disagree on ranger. I expect ranger to have a pretty wide spread. Should be a similar spread to barbarian or maybe fighter. Paladin manages a very narrow spread cause even the worst paladin has aura of protection, can cast find steed to have 60 movement, gets lay on hands, gets smite, gets a reasonable tier 3 power boost in improved divine smite, and can use its channel divinity to get a spell slot back. The worst ranger is...a half-caster with extra attack, some skill checks, and not much of a tier 3 power boost. (The level 11 ranger ability which serves as a tier 3 power spike is...a subclass ability, some of which are almost as good as fighter's third attack, and some of which...are okay but not really what we would expect out of a tier 3 power boost). I could see the worst rangers ending up as low as E tier (having a lot of the same struggles as weaker barbarian subclasses due to having underwhelming tier 3 power boosts) and on the opposite end of the spectrum maybe one or two rangers I could see creeping into B-tier.

@@KaitlynBurnellMath you may be right, I can't find fault with any of the facts you lay out. I disagree with the conclusions though. I think that the Rangers will lean far more heavily on their casting, and accordingly their spell list is a lot stronger. Once past the fact that they don't get smite, their lower level features are usually better than Paladins (admittedly, smite is a big feature to hand wave). This means that they play very differently, and don't really compare apples to apples. I do think, though, that their weaknesses fall exactly into that level range which Chris is least concerned with, and that their strengths fall exactly where Chris's greatest focus lies. That's why my conclusion is different, even though I agree with each of the facts that you bring up.

I could see the Monster Slayer being E-tier and maybe the Hunter as well. Both of those subclasses' tier 3 boosts rather suck. OTOH, Gloom Stalker likely creeps into B-tier, and Horizon Walker possibly does. I'll assume Treantmonk is going to rate the Beast Master based on its Tasha's improvements, in which case it should be a solid C.

@@tiradegrandmarshal we'll see... I think some of the "best" are going to be shown to be mostly hype, and some of the "worst" are going to be shown to deliver better than is generally accepted. Chris is always very methodical in how he presents both assets and deficits. I'm never surprised by his facts, but he often sees more than I do when it comes to conclusions.

@@tiradegrandmarshal I expect him to just have beastmaster on the tier list twice, once for the PhB version, and once for the Tasha's version. No way he gives up a perfectly good opportunity to dunk on PhB beastmaster.

Yup, this guy is a joke when it comes power building. I play Paladins all the time in all configurations (pure, Sorcadins, Hexadins etc.) and Vengeance is one of the strongest Paladins Oaths. They are best Paladin boss killers and they have crazy good spells. They combo awesome with Elven Accuracy or GWM. And Hasted Pegasus on level 13 is crazy mobility and speed (Hasted Steed too if DM gives you something cool)

@@honestbenny I remember playing a Vengeance Paladin in Curse of Strahd. In the final battle, Strahd disarmed me, and dropped my weapon down a few floors. I jumped down after it and used Misty Step to break my fall. Got my weapon, and caste Haste to run back up the stairs and then Misty Step into Strahd's face. Vow of Enmity for Advantage, and went to town with three attacks because of Haste. I think I killed him in two turns. :D We did need the spell caster to caste Daylight on him for a final victory. I swear by Vengeance Paladin, even though every channel and article I see rates it middling. I don't get it. :D

@@shorewall Becasue people can't utilize it. They don't build for number of attacks + using their tools right like you gave example of. I right now play Elf Vengeance Paladin and in 1 level I will get Elven Accuracy. Even now without it my elf never miss on bosses due to VoE. Hunter's Mark + 3 attacks + Haste from Wizard + Smites and I can cancel every boss, but that's what Vengeance Paladin does. Once you have IDS + Spirit Shroud/Hunter's Mark + Elven Accuracy + Haste you have so much DPS you mostly don't even need to smite. Not to mention Hunter's Mark makes you save tons of smites during day and lasts at min. for an hour. It's one of best level 1 spells in game. And hasted Steeds are awesome. Not to mention Misty Step and Dimensional Door WITH your Steed. And on level 15 you have with Haste freaking 5 attacks vs boss. Vengeance also has one of the best capstones, if not the best in my opinion.

@@honestbenny Though you don't mention it explicitly, I assume that this Elven Accuracy build is a two-weapon fighting build that uses two shortswords or scimitars. I deduce that from the number of attacks you say you are making. Is that correct?

@@carlosdevoto798 Mark of Shadow Elf, Blind Fighting Style, Elven Accuracy + Revenant Blade Vengeance Paladin. Using double bladed scimitar. Much better than two-fighting style.

Man I played a Lawful Good Conquest of Lathander. THAT dude was a blast and telling enemies "Naw homie you stay here and die and your pals an watch." It's not so scary for the Squishies to stand in your aura when the baddies are frozen

I do personally tend to rate conquerors as a bit weaker than avengers, since the oath of conquest tends to distract resources & actions away from the paladin's typical strengths while oath of vengeance tends to builds on those existing strengths. But conquest definitely isn't a weaker version OF vengeance. They're both on the edgier antihero end of paladin thematically, but mechanically they're absolutely doing their own things, and really play very differently. They actually work pretty well together on the same team, with gimmicks that complement each other well rather than stepping on each others toes - the conqueror tanking & locking down mooks while the avenger focuses down bosses with burst damage. Especially if both end up multiclassing, which is pretty typical for paladins in general, and the players coordinate their multiclassing choices to further diverge their ability sets.

This! @Treantmonk loves high initiative for some of the full spellcasting classes so much that it seems to skew his perspective on what is essentially a situationally useful feature. With the right party composition, the 7th level Watcher feature can be solid, but not nearly enough to make this the best paladin subclass! Like you, I would place Watcher on the lower end of the paladin spectrum.

Spell lists & Channel divinities don't really mean all that much for paladins in general unless the effect lasts throughout combat. Turn order is one of the single most impirtant things in literally any turn based rpg, so giving the whole party a pseudo alert feat is insanely strong, and will always be relevant. Yeah they have to be within range, but you can say that about any aura, you only need to worry about it once, but it will pay dividens throughout. I also think the tenets are just as important to talk about, since it's really one of the only things keeping this class in check early on, and Watchers has easily the best tenets cause they literally tell you to PLAY SMART. Do I agree with him saying it's the steongest? Eh, probably not, but is it still a really good subclass? Absolutely, I'd argue the best in the game, and I don't even play Paladins much. All of the features are perfectly on flavor, and while most are "situatilonal", the ones that aren't are so good compared to other paladins it doesn't matter.

Looks like TM rates my favorite subclass higher than I do. To explain my lower rating: Immune to frighten I find to be less of an impediment to Conquest than high wisdom saves and resistance. The designers know that wis save spells are completely debilitating so a great many enemies have high save bonuses such that you'l often find yourself throwing out fears and conquering presence on several enemies and being lucky to land the effect on even one. The CD allows additional saves every round, so even if you catch something, it won't be for long. And while relatively few enemies have resistance to frighten specifically, entire categories of enemies have spell resistance with works just the same against all of the conqueror's frighten effects. Conquest is not, for example, a great choice for descent to Avernus. Conquest abilities don't come as 'free' as described in terms of build commitment, either. All of Conquest's native frighten effects allow saves based on your charisma, so if you want to make heavy use of them you need to prioritize charisma. Two of the main three conquest frighteners - Wrathful Smite and Fear - depend on concentration, which means you also need to prop up your concentration saves too, adding yet more pressure to your ASIs. This need to prioritize charisma and concentration over weapon stat and martial feats mean that conquerors will typically be doing less damage than other paladin subclasses, significantly less when compared to more offensive subclasses like vengeance or oathbreaker. You're also spending spell slots on control effects rather than smites & buffs, which does cut into some of the functionality a party paladin is expected to bring. This is what I mean by conqueror is 'shoring up paladin weaknesses' in control and aoe, rather than 'building on paladin strengths' of healing/buffing party support and single target damage.

@@Malisteen All excellent points, I agree. The probability that the CD leads into the Aura is low. Further, you have to split your focus to lean into the effects that make this subclass dangerous. IMO, the best Paladin subclasses are the ones that do not push you to increase CHA.

Treantmonk takes multiclassing into account for these lists, so Conquest's greater reliance on CHA is irrelevant due to Hexblade's existance.

@@NotYourAverageNothing I wouldn't say irrelevant because it still costs you with Extra Attack at 5th, and it delays both Spiritual Weapon and Fear by a level. Still, dipping Hexblade is probably the way to go with Conquest. Fair.