In this episode, we discuss: 0:00:00 - Intro 0:00:08 - The value in doing something difficult 0:03:56 - Michael’s upbringing with a single parent and alcoholism 0:08:39 - Michael’s battle with alcoholism and his experience with quitting drinking 0:21:13 - Origin of the idea that we are in a crisis of comfort 0:31:12 - The death of boredom in modern society 0:39:33 - The benefits of boredom 0:43:17 - The value of disconnecting and being in nature 0:48:40 - Changing the dynamic of how we think about food and the story of Peter’s daughter’s first hunt 0:55:26 - How a profound experience at an elk hunt changed Michael’s thoughts about life and death 1:05:00 - How happiness can thrive in places without all of the modern comforts of the West 1:15:04 - Why we’re hardwired for stress, and the responsibility that comes with our level of comfort 1:25:43 - How perspective on the timescale of our lives in relation to history can impart positive changes 1:33:07 - The benefit of challenging oneself and the positive carryover it can have 1:43:11 - The many benefits of rucking 1:54:11 - Tips for rucking: ideal load, type of pack, and other considerations 2:00:03 - Parting thoughts on the downside of comfort and benefits of difficult things

Great interview, and I have tremendous respect for Peter. The one thing I would change is not interrupting the guest. I don’t mind listening to someone who speaks slowly and thoughtfully. Its actually relaxing.

The beginning of this interview was mesmerizing. Listening to Michael talk about how he got sober was amazing. It went off the rails as soon as Peter forgot he had a guest.

Comfort Crisis is one of the best books I've read. Profound and thought provoking.

Peter your comments and observations about Italy stood out to me. My family is from Italy and I work for an Italian multinational company and visit once a year. I have never seen anyone eat lunch at their desk. Can you imagine any company in the US or Canada shutting down completely for 2 or 3 weeks in August every year and still be a world leader not just in fashion and pasta but in all types of machinery and mechanical/hydraulic/electrical components? I don’t see families with huge freezers full of frozen meat or processed foods. They shop every few days and buy a lot of local produce. Meals consist of a small portion of meat, vegetables and wine of course.

I've just heard of rucking from a previous video from Dr. Attia and it was just what I needed. I have a 1.5 mile loop on my property that is through the woods, up and down ravines, and over rocks. I have been just walking around and around and it wasn't a real challenge except for length and speed. Now with rucking I feel my body responding positively to the extra load and love it. It is also a good way to prep for my retirement plan of hiking the Appalachian and Pacific Coast trails. I also have never been a comfort person myself, always doing something. I could never understand everyone at work getting up from their desks at work and going to a restaurant to sit down and eat. I always went to the YMCA or walked during lunch, eating afterward. I still do have to work at a computer for a living, but other than that, I'm working out, working in the garden, cleaning up, doing most anything but using the video screens. The last thing I want to do later in life is be in a retirement center watching TV while I wait for death to come. BTW, I listen to these videos while working, that way I don't spend time I could by moving.

I listened to the whole book a few weeks ago per a recommendation from this podcast. I really enjoyed it. There are 2 things that I will say something about. First, I have grown up in a family that has hunted my whole life. My husband archery elk hunts and usually uses recurve and is a fingers shooter so the difficulty of this takes the age of the animal out of the equation. Listening to the ethical discussion about the age of animals, I haven't been able to wrap my head around because frankly I have a personal experience with eating,....well attempting to eat ,an old elk. Older animals can be sick and the meat may not be tolerable. When I was 12 my dad shot an old elk. While gutting it in the middle of a snow storm he fell in the gut pile and we had to smell that in the truck with the heat on. I am 47 now.....never have forgotten it. That elk meat ended up being so bad, even the dogs wouldn't eat it. LOL. I actually didn't eat venison for a decade after that. So, now I think a young elk guarantees good meat and also the older ones are the survivors; they are the breeders. At least this was the philosophy I have heard through my life. Overall I agree with the comfort crisis philosophy. I think people should consider that maybe just taking up learning how to and doing their own yard work, housework, cooking, growing some food (even just herbs), is a tangible thing all of us can do every day. Instead most people pay someone to do all of these things which are physical. So we then have to create physical activity to replace it. I am 5' 4" , female, not an ideal weight yet. But I have found I can do most things in my house and yard. I still work 3 days a week, have 8 year old twins, run 3 miles 4 days a week. There is time. One doesn't have to leave the state to achieve an awareness of how satisfying doing difficult things, outside, can be............Also, Maybe my husband could trade some hunting tips for some health tips. LOL...... :)

Beautiful talk, reminds me of the Untethered Soul by Michael Singer and how unimportant we are and how our thoughts ruin this amazing life we have in front of us.

Great episode. The momment when Michael talked about hunting the old bull and facing death was truly profound for me. Misogy is also a profound concept and surely a valuable exercise. Going forward, Petter, I think the podcast would be better if you manage to increase the guest's share of voice in the conversation (interrupting less and talking more in a more concise fashion). Thank you for this great episode.

Love his book! Read it twice; immediately started rucking; and started eating “like a f’n adult”. Can’t wait for my 1st misogi!

This is so timely as I live in Cape Coral, Florida and survived Hurricane Ian. Now without power for nearly a week. I know that's a feeble example of being out of my comfort zone but it's not fun, for sure. We are grateful to be alive and certainly learned some lessons from this tragedy. Thank you for this episode, Dr Attia. I plan on getting a ruck pack as soon as I recover 😊

I'm a daily Rucker for my workout routine. Put my pack on, grab the dogs and ruck for 2-3 miles up and down hills in the woods. Nothing better!

I started rucking 4 years ago. Light days 30 lbs, heavy days 45 pounds….never going over 45lbs. My typical ruck lasts 90 minutes over very hilly terrain (approximately 5 miles). Living in North Carolina, I get a good variety of temperature and humidity extremes. Rucking 5 days a week puts my 64 year old body through a rigorous workout without the joint pain I’ve experienced jogging/ running. They are correct about the rucksacks from GoRuck…the absolute best equipment for rucking.

One of the best interviews I've seen in a long time. Awesome content. Such a wide ranging discussion yet on point throughout.

Michael’s book is excellent! The simple things, the challenging things I’ve caught recently. First read Christopher McDougall’s “Natural Born Heroes”, then try Niksen: (Dutch “Doing Nothing”), implement Lagom: (Swedish “just the right amount”), then with work, etc, accept Tedium: (Merriam-Webster) “the QUALITY …. of being tedious” Personal challenge: Marsjmerket, a Norwegian armed forces skill badge that is earned. "Participants had to complete, in uniform with boots, an 18.6 mile (30km) ruck march within 4 hours and 30 minutes while carrying a 25 pound (11 kilograms) ruck sack. "(variations allowed for age). Do the best you can to as many as you can, eat cheese and learn sign language.

This is amazing. Hearing about Michael realized he needed to get sober and did it is incredible. People really struggle with this and its good for them to know they aren't the only ones going through it and that they CAN get sober and healthy.

This podcast made me cry and that’s probably a very good thing. I hung on every word. It’s it’s very important to talk about death and I was blessed to have parents that discussed it with me from when I was a child so when they were no longer with me while sad it was in normal process and less painful. Thank you both. EXCELLENT!!

Backpacking. It checks all the boxes you are talking about here. Getting uncomfortable in the wilderness, weight on your back, up and down hills, no electronic distractions, time to think, becoming more attuned to your senses in nature, rationing food and water, doing something really hard. Surprised that it didn’t come up in this convo.

Lots of food for thought here. I had never thought of boredom as a form of discomfort. But it is-makes total sense.

The book wasn’t what I thought it would be but I loved it. Very fact based and not a self help book.

I started rucking to get my fresh water every day for the past few months, carrying about ~40+ lbs of water over a hillside for a few miles. It has gotten me into great shape and really clears the mind

People talking about rucking and those of us in the military shaking our heads like somebody who graduated high school in 1970 does when a 21 year old today is like "have you heard this great band called The Beatles?!" Seriously though, best shape I've ever been in was when I was rucking regularly in the military. Need to do more of it now.

Incredible topic! I have to give credit to extensive amount of "boredom" had I when I was in my younger years that helped to gather my thoughts and sort out the mess my mind was in.

Grew-up on a farm, I always knew where the food came from, plucked chickens starting at about 9, I still remember how mom cut them up, a steer got butchered every year for the freezer also.

This discussion was like 2 great guys having an open honest conversation about life

Awesome! I can relate on so many levels. I took up jiu jitsu at 63, which is described by some as becoming comfortable with being uncomfortable. In the past 4 years I have lived without A/C for 18 months in Louisiana with a mini split sitting on my floor. I love A/C and am thankful each day to have it.

I most enjoy driving alone with silence…It’s gold🎉. Now going to eliminate my audio books listening when walking my two mile walk each morning.

The section about The Duel reminded me of the thought experiment of living as Cornelius Vanderbilt in 1850 or as a person in a median state in America making $75,000 in 2023. Your quality of life is objectively better in the latter than the former due to advances in every element of society.

1:27:40 It's worse than you think - Not only are we around for just a millisecond, when we are here we are no more than a microscopic speck on a planet that is itself no more than a grain of sand on a beach that stretches beyond the horizon...

I did rucking for about 3 years using a backpack with about 12-18 kg and Meindl hiking boots about 1.2 kg each. I was living in a 13th floor and walked 45 minutes each way to my office most of the days. Actually I never felt any extra improvement in my overal performance and stopped😅running, biking and some strength training fit me better😇💪

Oh shit I fooked up the math yesterday! Actually there's 4 steps and they are 9 inches approximately. So 3 feet up and back down so I have to do 1,770 round trips starting from the top with 100 pound weight vest and hopefully I would still hear David Goggins say THAT'S HARD if it takes me a little longer than a half hour or hour lol since it'll be 1st time doing it. Yep 1,770 round trips is 2 miles.

Great episode Peter and Michael, thank you.

I come from a place where we went hiking with heavy backpacks every weekend because we didn't have money or cars so we had to carry tents and stoves and food and stuff all the time. Backpack < 45 pound was considered light and I have hiked for a month in the mountains with 65 pound backpack with no problems. Now I really enjoy all the light stuff 😂

Wasn’t expecting much from someone who writes for mens health magazine but this was a really good one

In reference to talk on happiness and Michael's trip to Bhutan, I think a main contributor is this little game everyone is playing to earn their living and trying to be noticed in the society and these constant stressors that come along. Great podcast by the way! Learnt a lot from the talk!

I felt that way about the desert around Tuscon, AZ. It felt endlessly ancient in such a beautiful way.

On my 3rd listen of Comfort Crisis from Audible. Trying to get my 13 yr old son to soak up the concepts.

Man I have a hill outside my house, I was deconditioned much to even walk , have two lumps on my hamstring from hill sprints about 10 years ago, sciatica and other stuff, this hill is about 30-40 degrees around 160 steps, I fell in love with the proccess , even my steps becoming easier and lighter, the next step will be multiple sets, and then rucking, also hills have some sweeping the feet quality of the sled training but your hips not restricted by the sled strap, so I'm a lucky guy you can say

Un saluto dalla Toscana. Grazie per questo video. Comprerò il libro

Nice discussion have been rucking for 2 years now checks a lot of boxes.

This has to be a favourite interview todate; we all need to take heed and learn to seek some adversity to balance our extremely privileged lives

I’m grateful for the podcast. The insights that are going down in the USA are long overdue. What I find over and over again in these podcasts is that to us outside the USA, Americans come across as if they know it all and they don’t. The life style they lead is unsustainable on so many levels. At last Americans are going out in the world and learning humility. Of course we’re going to die. So we need to live finitely. Understanding we are in a constant state of change, but also that we are connected to everything and we are nature not separate. Our separation is the illusion. Recognising that we along with the whole planet are not here to be plundered but to share in our wealth. Less is more. Be like the Bhutanese and the other cultures that live differently. “ lived a beautiful traumatic life in nature, let’s not romanticise nature” what does that mean? Do we know what it is to even walk in another mans shoes, let alone know what it feels like to be nature. How can we fool ourselves like this. Maybe fooling ourselves is exactly how we arrived in this romanticised place.

I grew up in the 80s where you had to ride your bike to your friend's if they didn't pick up their phone that was ATTACHED TO THE WALL & children were seen and not heard. Basically, we were outside as often as possible. We were rarely bored, had a super high level of creativity & IMO, much healthier overall.

Japan is the same way with smoke. I hate it too but it doesn't bother me like here in the US. Fantastic book and interview. Thanks!

Sebastian Junger's book Tribe hits on a lot of the issues discussed just past the one hour mark.

Incredible discussion. Thank you for the perspective.

Peter this is a great episode. It was great from the beginning but then you touched Tuscany... Btw, Umbria is like Tuscany, just wilder and perhaps more authentic. One note: Italian children are the most obese in Europe (percentwise), things are changing in Italia, unfortunately.

Great interview, loved his book!!

I believe that happiness is a decision, not a result of your experience.

Midwestern farm kid here. Cold, heat, hard labor boredom and every aspect of life and death is an integral part of growing up.

Throughout my entire 30’s, I’ve done numerous long distance hikes in remote places by myself as a successful intervention for debilitating emotional trauma and severe depression. Now, in my 40’s, I’m going to add rucking and a variety of “misogi challenges” to continue my transformational therapy. Maybe one day I’ll feel “happy” enough to foster and adopt a daughter.

I was in the Army so I'm done with rucking. It's bad for your body. Ask any infantryman or special forces operator. Rucking ruined our bodies. Do any other form of cardio you will get the same benefits without the pain.

Great discussion. Conquering addiction, human development, evolution, innovation, invention, quality of life, having empathy,helping others, valuing life. Creativity, writing books. Dying and being buried. Analyzing all these topics and Not a mention of God?

I nearly spat my coffee with the look on Dr Peters face when Dr Rhonda told him she does her resistance training on her Peloton (it is a cult 😂)

Rucking is just skinny people doing exercise like a fat person. It's tough. I lost 25 pounds this year, but I'd love to compete against people in races where everyone weighs 300lbs.

Please have few episodes where Dr Attia interviews Dr Attia...post that, please let the guests speak during the interviews...

Listen to the time slot from 2:01:40 - 2:04:02. Take a moment to soak this in once or twice. Research, Practice, and ask yourself what you have to lose and who really has your best interest in mind.

Excellent episode. The Comfort Crisis is an excellent book.

Brilliant episode! Thanks 🙏

Great Conversation!

Micheal Easter I love you

Instead of extreme exercise, or pushing a boulder around, how about helping people? Running an after-school program, delivering meals to shut-ins, being a Big Brother/Big Sister? Is there a comfort crisis for the single mom with two jobs? Life is hard enough without narcissistic ego-challenges. Instead of spine-shooting a deer, go volunteer at a community garden, or sit on the board of a cultured meat company. We have a crisis of lack of community - make your challenges meaningful.

My 24 yr old son just replaced his android with a Flip phone . Same realization that all electronics are a distraction to productivity.

Most interesting insightful conversation I’ve heard in awhile. Thank you 😊

Absolutely GREAT interview, Peter!

I think before I speak and choose my words carefully. Most people are not comfortable with pauses and momentary silences, so they jump in. I get interrupted at least 10 times a day. It’s maddening. 20 minutes in and I am having trouble getting to the end because of all the interruptions.

You are as always smart, thank you and good night.

Long distance backpacking is the way to go and the best time.

what comfort crisis? Life is pretty damn hard for most people I know, we a are struggling with a multitude of challenges. Just because our challenges don't involved running 5 miles or lifting heavy things, there is no comfort or ease.

Comfort?! I don't live a comfortable life! I've only asked around a dozen women out in my entire life on a date but after being told no don't and heard they ask guys that sometimes so I'm waiting for that...and waiting...and waiting! LOL I can afford a new car easily BUT I'm saving for retirement AND I've got a car I used to sleep in not far from my job because I commuted 37 miles one way over mountains and decided I hated driving so much. I didn't realize until it was too late that having the windows up and that making condensation on them will make mold grow. I still drive that car from a new job (not doing other job) that's a mile from my home and shallow breathe or have windows rolled down when I drive so I don't breathe too many spores into me because I'm aware that that can cause interstitial lung disease. It's NOT comfortable! I turn 48 in 2 days and just had delivered to my address yesterday a 100-pound adjustable weight vest. I don't do sports I just want to live longer instead of merely schlonger and I want to BE HARD like DAVID GOGGINS LOL! I'm 5 ft. 7 inches and 130-ish pounds. I was 119 lbs. when weighed right before a colonoscopy. I heard don't do more weight than about half your body weight with a vest or rucksack LOL so I'm not great at math and maybe I heard it from an alien that was shapeshifted into a human so IDC about what I heard. Oh wait you said a reasonably fit person can carry their bodyweight for a minute in their hands so I guess I'm that fit BUT want to be more fit more like David Goggins because it's studly and to live longer. Are those reasons good enough reasons?! You're a doctor so of course I value your opinions/facts. Carry the weight on the hips?! LOL but I thought the best way to live life is to be uncomfortable so I'm dealing with the shoulder discomfort and gonna keep using the weight vest! I felt like a stud doing like 3 or 4 pushups going halfway down wide-grip pushups yesterday wearing it. I walked today maybe 100-ish steps and felt like okay no maybe on my birthday I'll have better luck with it. I noticed a little bit of pain in my lower leg above my ankle below my knee about halfway I guess between them doing some jogging today with it so stopped doing that. I realized a GREAT/"GREAT" idea lol. My porch steps are like 6 inches and there are 3 of them. I could walk down to ground and back up 293 times and it would be covering 2 miles of distance because 5280 feet are in a mile and so that's 880 steps with steps being 6 inches and 880 divided by 3 is close not exactly but close to 293. I'm excited to be holding on to the handrail while going as fast as I can doing that on my birthday! Hopefully I can do it in half an hour because I walked/walked fast jogged(all 3) 2 miles with a 60-pound vest in a half hour last week. 

Peter, with all the hunting conversation you did in this podcast, as well as a lot of podcast focused around diet, I’d be interested to see you do a podcast with Peter Singer.

Watched the Jack Carr episode. Came across this episode. Perfect.

Thank you!

Inspired me to do some rucking today. It's no joke.

Binging didn’t start with Netflix. It started really with DVD boxsets.

This wasn't what i expected. I thought it was just going to be intellectual circlejerking about studies. This was an adventure.

I think he is referring to Watts Tower in Watts at 1:32 was built by an Italian architect and the story is fascinating about the whole building process.

Loved this interview !!!

1:35:25 You can tell he just couldn't wait to say "ENTER MISOGI."

This is an incredible interview. Peter, what is the camp you sent your daughter to? Very interested in that!

informative, fantastic interview.

I grew up in 80s Wisconsin in a farm. We killed (and ate some) so many different animals so often at such young ages that it really never meant anything to do it.

Holy shit I wore the 60-pound vest and it wasn't bugging me in the shoulders! That's not the reason I stopped at 75 roundtrips! LOL I was going to do 1,770 roundtrips to reach 2 miles but I guess the up the four 9-inch stairs impact on my quadriceps and maybe more the down the stairs impact on my hamstrings knocked me out! I wanted a not shit cardio experience so I made sure it didn't take more than 6 seconds every roundtrip! I don't know how long it'll take me to build up or if it's possible for me to be able to build up to where I can do 1,770 roundtrips with the 100-pound vest not taking more than 6 seconds roundtrip BUT don't I'm not my breath waiting for that to happen since I'd rather NOT spend money on what I have to buy to be able to consume my 130 pound bodyweight 1 gram per each pound in protein every day or even just on the day I work out which is just like one day a week!

Regarding the tsa tsas in Bhutan (or any Buddhist culture for that matter), how does this relate to the comfort-crisis? For example, is the point that periodically *thinking* about death leads to discomfort (like fasting, rucking, ice-baths, sauna, etc), which leads to better appreciation/happiness?

This was awesome and I’m going to look more into rucking

This is turn me on to the idea of hiking with weight. I didn't know there was weights designed to to throw on a backpack rucksack. It looks really valuable. Go-Ruck apparently a good brand.

This Is a Great Interview. A+++ 🤠

Great video 😊thanks for sharing 👏

Rucker, lol...never heard of it before i read NO TIME TO DIE. I have a rucksack to carry lots of groceries up a hill, or two heavy bags. I'm 70 plus.

I started today. I’m already a convert!

Boredom is where good ideas come from . That and doing the dishes. 😬

What was the name of the camp where you sent your daughter? We are interested for our own kiddos.

To ride that Pink cloud Ro ride that Pink cloud To ride in that Pink cloud

"be comfortable being uncomfortable."

Can we get the name of the camp or the name of the type of camp your children went to?

Stoppes drinkin @30, so weird he said that lmai. Ill have one EVERY NOW and then, but most gatherings i dont and never alone anymore.

I appreciate this in depth discussion, the human strength, how the mind wants to quit, but if we press on there's strength beyond our perceived will..and how freeing is this? Now I want to ruck:)) How, or what weight does a newbie start with?

I wanted to feel like I was HARD lol so I just did 12 roundtrips up and down the stairs I've already commented about with the 100 pound weight vest on. I guess I need a ruckpack like from Goruck and I don't like their price but I can afford it. I guess I need it because I had the strength from taking 500 mg. of NMN and Spirulina Algae from the AG1 athletic greens drink to kind of lift the vest off my shoulders using obviously my arms but I'm not hella buff(just good/great muscle tone) so I'd rather not keep doing that and but without doing that the straps feeling on my shoulders is quite unpleasant. Happy I was about my heart beating faster than 120 beats per minute though. Hopefully I have my one living recently died grandparents genetics. He made it to 101 years old! I guess it makes sense that he did since he got cancer but they removed it from his skin on his nose a few decades before he died. Before that before he retired he was a cement flattener(lol I'm not sure if flattener is the job title exactly). In Texas in the Houston area he helped make roads back in the day. His job was to wait for the cement truck to let it fall on the ground then take a tool like a broom sort of but I guess it was made of metal more than likely unless hard wood could do it and pushed the lumpy not yet dried BEFORE it was dried(very important so it wouldn't be a lumpy concrete thing) flat and according to my mom he was pretty muscular and had to have been pretty good cardio doing that job(especially in the summer when it was HOT)!Wait a minute fook Goruck I just bought a backpack with 50L of space with a hip belt from Amazon for like 147 dollars instead of spending 500 at least from Goruck! I've got the 100 pounds of weights in the vest I can remove from it and will throw it into the backpack! Hopefully the material doesn't rip apart from the stress on it from 100 pounds!

Well, now I have to do a long run 🏃‍♀️ 🎧

Great talk. I have hunted almost my entire life. I have elk and deer season coming up soon here in Colorado.