Instead of trying to remember names you could have called them by their shirt colors. Red, Yellow, Green & Black

Thanks for the advice. Now that I am 61, I am a 4.0 tennis player (down from 4.5). I moved into a retirement community that appears to have a strong group of pickleball players. Though I have never played pickleball, I am looking forward to picking it up and video's like this help educate me on what I need to do to play at the level I think I should be capable of doing.

I'm recovering from rotator cuff surgery and can't play pickleball for at least another 5 months. So happy I found this site - love watching with all the commentary.

I really liked this analysis. Brutal but true analysis. It looks like the level I am at right now. I play a lot of bangers who have tennis backgrounds. So watching weaknesses from above like this is really good time spent. I like to play strategy and percentages at my level of play and opponents. This video analysis is what I need to be watching more of for the time being. Thanks very much.

Wow bro. The production value of your videos are way better now. I just randomly found this video. What a difference in 4 months. Great job

Guy in yellow while serving from add court slides his left foot back before contact and it goes outside the sideline extension while maintaining contact with the ground. If it was lifted off the ground it might be ok but it is an illegal serve as is.

Love these videos - you are so interesting to watch!

Thought you did a great job grading. One of the first things I look for in a 4.0 player is a fro and back hand roll shot at the net. only saw one. I watched 40 players today on 10 courts to see patterns. mostly 3.0- 3.5. everyone returns the ball to high over the net. I myself have struggled with soft hands and have changed paddles over it, we will see, also watching people, we all need to reset the ball more often. once you get to 4.0 and above players, you are really not going to hit it past them very often. Doubles seem to be won or lost at the net. At 71, very few play singles.

Guy in the yellow shirt serving from odd side stands outside the invisible court line. Good breakdown of the game.

To me it looks like 3.5. Mostly because of too many drives where drops should be happening, and resets not quite as prevalent.

What determines your level is how often you win at the level at which you compete. The level criteria are guidelines only.

Bangers for life

Honestly about 3.5, could be a little more or less. My reasoning is that every 4.0+ DUPR that i have played with or against handles drives easily and can just block the ball back. That being said, typically players want to get to the kitchen with the fifth shot if they are the serving team. Third shot should get you halfway, and fifth shot gets you all the way. A third shot drive coming at you typically is hard to push all the way to the baseline, and a drop gives the serving team some time to move in. I have played tournaments both 3.5 and 4.0+. Every 3.5 tournament I have played I have placed in, and the teams that place don't hit drives all the time. They switch between drive and drop. The 4.0+ tournaments (4.0-5.0) drives are usually part of a set strategy, with partners communicating that they will drive. They usually set up a shake n bake with drives. Also, drives should typically be hit at the player moving in on the returning team, since they aren't in as threatening of a position to keep the serving team back. In this video, most drives were hit at the player already at the NVZ. I honestly think that they are probably under 3.5, just based on the decision making. They can handle 3.5 for sure, just based on athleticism. But if they were to play tournaments, an experienced 3.5 and any 4.0+ would adapt very quickly to the constant drives

Great breakdown! How do we submit a video for analysis?

I don't usually comment on things like this but boy the audio setup could use some work.. Great video still, AWESOME analysis and tips

Around 3.5. At 16:35 where you said player's wrist is unlocked, this is indeed a tennis technique, and it DOES give added power. Good if you can do it, but not recommended for non tennis players. At 18:05 where you mentioned he didn't need to punch the volley, you're right. But I don't see that as his mistake. I think his mistake is having an open paddle face, where he's almost punch slicing the ball. Punching would've been fine if he closed the paddle face and hit it down at opponent's feet. These guys have solid athleticism and a lot of potential, but are too inconsistent to be at 4.0 level, IMO. So I would say somewhere in the 3.5+ range, but not quite 4.0. The guy in black, whom you pointed out lifted his foot, seemed to actually have the most touch on his drop shots. And at least he was trying them with greater regularity.

Rory, just curious what is your Level of play? Have you play in any tournaments that you can Pick Apart? I'm sure your opponents don't know or care you're Picking them Apart on KZfaq like all the other Pick Apart videos. I see lots of Pro Level Serving short and Returning short in MLP and Tuesday Night Pickleball at the Orchard recently. I say about 30% to 40% of the time. What do you think about that? Keep up the good work. We enjoy your videos.

this is how tennis players who converted to playing pickleball play. Looking at their mechanics, they are most likely tennis players. They might be a 4.0 where they live. I mean I can tell you, not many 3.5s would be able to properly return those 3rd shot drives at all or without popping it up. 3.75 seems pretty ok. They're probably more advanced than most people, and will only continue to get better because they have fundamentals from tennis. They will improve drastically once they learn the small nuances of pickleball. When you critiqued the wrist lag forehand at @16:35 , as you mentioned, it is a core tennis fundamental that unlocks a lot of power. You don't see many pickleball players do it because not many of them have tennis backgrounds and did not learn swing mechanics like a tennis player. Many people try generate top spin and power by locking up and using their entire arm (similar to ping pong). Neither is wrong, but using wrist lag correctly (like a whip) creates a lot of power.

I agree with the folks saying that these guys are most likely tennis players because I am a long time tennis player and when I first started pickleball I hit like them. I was a total banger and while i could over power a lot of players I would get beat by guys who had a good reset and dink game. I have since added other dimensions to my game and now play at the advanced level regularly. I do believe having the swing mechanics from tennis helps a lot.

I feel I can play at 4.0 to 4.5 level well when I'm playing with those players, but if I'm in with 3.5, it makes me look like I'm only 3.5. Wonder if others feel the same,,I'm like face it, if you're partner pops them high alot, there's not alot you can do but look bad yourself. I've noticed that this is not mentioned alot when it comes to ratings. There was times I've played against some on opposite side that at times looked like 3.0.,,but them having the right partner was a totally different game,,it was like WOW man! Didn't play like that last game, now you're playing 4.5 level.

While appreciate your videos and viewpoint, I think you get to caught up in how pickleball was in the past and not how the game has changed. In the past there was pretty much only the third shot drop but recently the third shot drive is now the standard and now we have the fifth shot drop or even the seventh shot drop. The two players in the near court played more modern day pickleball and won while the other team played more old school and lost. The paddles are getting faster and some players are banging harder, so now it's becoming harder and harder to defend against these drives making them the new standard. I see you as old school which I respect but the gear is changing, the players are changing and the game is changing. It's like the spread in football! Peace!

Great video! However, an immediate observation is the audio has a weird "quality" about it. Like an echo along with some distortion. Hopefully that's fixed by the next video I watch!

You knock the third shot lob, but its a valid play. Even in the play you questioned it, it got the player to the kitchen by drawing the opponent off the NVZ line. At 4.5 and below levels its not a bad option, unless youre against teams with tremendous overheads.

Completely disagree with you on “breaking your wrist” comment. Laying your wrist back is what every top player does in pretty much every racquet sport including pickleball. It actually increases accuracy and power. Slapping at the ball is a different story

I totally agree with your post game analysis of these players . If your game plan is to bang ( drive ) the ball most every time , then you'll never reach 4.0 , much less advance upward from 4.0 . These guys are playing tennis , not PICKLE-BALL . The shame of it is , is that as soon as they decide to slow the game down , they'll become 4.0 five minutes later . They have the talent to do so , but don't seem to be interested . Hopefully , someday , they'll get it .

Nice job. Thanks for covering for me this morning. What paddle(s) do you like and use? GOD, Guns & Gumbo. RJ

Hi Rory, thanks for the videos. Something just crossed my mind. Have you ever recorded one of your games and done a "pick apart? Would be kind of fun to see. Thanks again

Watch a slow-motion video of Anna Leigh Waters forehand - she often lays her wrist back like Brendan in the video and she doesn't have a tennis background. I love the whip and top spin that provides on forehand drives! :)

Short returns are a killer against bangers…

Your mentality that “all serves should be in” is outdated in today’s pickleball game. Serves are an offensive tool and if you’re getting it in every time you’re leaving value on the table (poker analogy). The best current advice is to serve so that 90% are in. That’s still a high percentage but will give you some balls returned in below average locations. Just because serves are rarely aces doesn’t mean that strong serves with risk are unwise.

What's with all the backhand slice drives? All these high 3rd shot drives and poor blocks make these 3.5s where I live. And Victor frequently standing outside the boundary when he serves, an no one calling it, tells me they aren't that well acquainted with the finer points of the rules.

At min 6:10, when the guy in the yellow hits the back hand he keeps his paddle away from his body and he gets "boddy-bagged". A 4.0 player should know, that when at the kitchen line, your ready position should be, paddle up, in front of you, at at 10 'oclock for most situations. He could have blocked this shot if done what I just mentioned.

at the club i belong to, they do 4.0 testing based on competition. put you in a group of 8 (4 testers, 4 helpers that are 4.0 rated) and play for a few hours. if you get 50 points (out of 6 games to 12) you get your 4.0. So...if you're a GOOD banger, you could get ur 4 rating (depends on how good the other team is at handling the bangs). is this the best way to test for 4.0?

Interesting pick apart here! At the 3:00 mark you say a 3rd shot drop is coming, but isn't that actually a 5th shot drop? I thought the shots are counted on both sides, right? So the receiver immediately receives and hits the 2nd shot.

at 14:05, justin should be hitting it to the guy closer on the left right? its a killer set up so he won't get a better ball than that to try a put away and its worth going for it seems because of how small of a reaction time the player on the left would have being that close.

I completely agree that none of these players are 4.0 based on that game. Too much banging and simply unforced errors as a result.

Victor's serves from the left side are illegal, no? His left foot is outside the court line extended. But I could be mistaken.

Good solid 3.8 players. They lack several shots in their ability; and, they make weak shot selection throughout the game. They have great movement, but their ready positions are lacking. Most points are being earned with unforced errors. 4.0 + players make more points by waiting for higher percentage opportunities to hit winners. there is no "patience" in this game, with all players accelerating and taking risks far too early in the point. They are not setting up their partners for easier kill shots. Pickleball is a game setup by finesse, position, and team work. Tennis is set up with power, and players need to learn the soft game to advance into the 4.0+ level.

Have you heard of drive drop combo?

Victor serve is illegal is outside the boundary line on left hand side

At 8:30, is that a legal serve? It looks like he broke the plane of the sideline, or has that rule changed?

nice ！

Do our recent 4.0 Joola Gold Medal Match!

Can you serve with your feet outside of the sideline?

A 3.5 should be able to win a 3.5 tournament at their age level. None of these players would win a 3.5 tournament. A 4.0 player is comfortable making one of several shots to the right spot on the court. (i.e. stop feeding Brendan forehands!) An unforced error such as hitting a serve out-of-bounds is a 3.0 mistake, not even a 3.5 mistake. All of these players are closer to a 3.0 than a 3.5 from a tournament-proof DUPR rating. Brendan has a winning shot drive that he can execute successfully and consistently against 3.0 players, so he is at times a 3.5, but only if he is hitting at a 3.0 player.

Are there regional pockets of difference in DUPR ratings? Because the 3.5-4.0 guys I pay with would kill this group.

They are all Bangers , and as a result , they are voluntarily often out of position.

4.0 talent with 3.5 skills and 3.0 strategy. 3.5 should be better than average. Every person that thinks of themselves as athletic think they are automatically near 4.0 right off the bat. These guys are athletic but not exceptionally athletic as far as I can see. They are probably better than average because of it but not as good as they could or probably will be. I am guessing that if they work at it and try to get better in a year or probably two they could destroy the players they are today.

Yellow has a tennis backhand.

Servers are faulting by have their feet extended beyond the sideline extended when hitting the ball.

From my angle Victor has foot faulted from the odd court serve several times.

Watching these guys they seem to be like 3.5 in tennis. M thinking im 5.0 pickleball since im a strong 4.0-4.5 player

The guy in yellow is foot fauting while serving from left side. He routinely is standing outside of sideline

First you said it was his Rt foot, then left ft. I understand one loses time and their balance.

Watch the Pro tournaments now with the top players playing. Most pro players now mostly do a 3rd shot drive then a 5th shot drop. Anna Leigh Waters actually recommends a 3rd shot drive over a 3rd shot drop.

Yellow shirt guy routinely committed foot faults from the odd side of the court. Both feet outside the sideline when contacting the ball.

Closer to 3.5 in our region of AZ.

Yellow shirt player is in violation during his serve by crossing imaginary sideline extension prior to ball contact

@12:28 two bounce rule violation? The guy in red shirt hits a high return to the server's partner with automatic reflex hits the ball in the air.

Can we see you in action? I would love to cheer you on!

Guy in yellow foot fault on sideline extension during serve on left side.

3.5

The serve by the player in yellow at 1:24 was a fault. He was standing off the court to the side.

Player in yellow consistently serves from out of bounds past the left side line! This should be a foot fault I believe.

Close. The team with the guy in the light green shirt needs better positioning. Note how at 14:54 he stuck his paddle into the middle (and his butt out) to take away the forehand from his partner. I think 4.5 players would be more knowledgeable about positioning. Just my opinion.

Guy in yellow serves feet out of bounds

And don’t forget about the illegal serve at 7:40 of your video. And many more times serving outside the line.

There’s something extremely obvious that you’re missing…the reason these guys are having problems with the serve is cause they’re standing on the baseline instead of moving back and giving themselves some room to react…that’s why he lifts his leg is to try and lean back to give himself some room and that’s why they’re giving away free points on missed returns into the net

I agree they did not seem all that good to me either.

At 2:13, that is an illegal serve. His feet or (foot) is outside the left boundary line. Did the same thing at 15:56 serve.

The mustard and ketchup team are super annoying… bangers galore….

Silly me.....I serve with an underhand motion, below my waist, with my wrist above the racket face......

2:56 illegal serve by yellow shirt - beyond the sideline.

3.5 players

It appears Brenden is beyond the sideline on his serve as he contacts the ball on the left side, thus a fault

That was a 3.5 or lower game IMHO. No rallies, sustained play at the net, or strategy other than to drive the ball through or past your opponent. Did they even have a rally that exceeded 6 shots? Not to mention a lot of bad mechanics, footwork, and playing out of position. It appeared nobody was trying to play with any control or move players around. He mentioned one player's good defensive play from deep in no-man's land. Unfortunately, he just returned a serve. Why was he in no-man's land and not at the net? Or, maybe I have an inflated idea of what level of play 4.0 is.

3.5 maybe

Honestly don't agree with the lifting of the left foot assessment. I mean, yes, it does take away power, but clearly this is the goal with this player and an established mechanic. I've used this mechanic on windy days outside to help being returns in and for 3rd shot drops. Becoming a good PB player is as much, or maybe even more, about mechanic consistency than most other things. Yes, some mechanics should be avoided because they can cause issues with follow-up movement or on court positioning, but this is not one of them. Edit: now that I've heard the assessments, I honestly don't think this mechanic is enough to rate someone a 3.5 vs 4.0. This player is a 3.5 because of an inconsistent backhand, shallow returns, and less than ideal positioning.

Garret hit a cut on every back hand volley. He drops the tip of his paddle after contact. I think you called it a chicken wing. What ever. He’s missing opportunities to put power on it or roll volley.

The rallies seemed ver short for 4.0 level. Very little dinking. Never saw a reset.

Who's Justin?

I would have to say these gentlemen would not get far in a 4.0 tournament. I see 3.5 players. No resets, no rolls, poor blocking on the bangers no soft attacks on offense. None of them can keep their opponents with rolls making them stage and take the 5,7 shots soft.

I stopped the video as you were about to state your ratings, Rory. Brenden 3.5 Victor 3.25 Garrett 3.25 Justin 3.0 These guys have athletic ability but lack pickleball skills. They need lessons. Returning serve, footwork, positioning, resets (A VERY important skill from 3.5, up!) how to set up your partner, shot selection. They lacked all of these.

At 18:22 the dude hit three drives and the first two were returned. All three of them would have landed out. You did not comment on that.

The serve at 2:56 is illegal. The commentator didn't even notice that! Sheesh!!!!!!!! And another at 7:04!!!!! You cannot be past the sideline people!!!!! And more! WOW!

If players are not able to return your's , or anyone else's serves , then they are not 4.5 or 5.0 players . But if they are , then you ought to turn pro .

8:29. Illegal serve. His foot was outside the box.

Ive seen enough to know that most 3.5 players think they are 4.0....but can never actually best a 4.0.....

Minute 7:05...even more noticeable that he's too far left past the imaginary line

The guy Victor in the yellow shirt serves with his feet outside the sideline from the left side. Serve is illegal.

Being a banger at the 4.0 level isn't going to be very effective. Their soft games tells me that they aren't at the 4.0 level. They need to play smarter. Their size and athleticism can only compensate for so much. I came from a tennis background and once I figured out that the soft game is the key!

Are these guys all named Victor?

You don't have to pause the play on every comment you need to make. Guy misses a serve, comment "Can't miss the serve" and the the video play. Too many stops in the video one a clear startment is all that is needed and let the video continue to play.

Never mentioned the guy 8n yellow serving illegal. Not even a part of his feet are inside the serve line

There is an illegal serve at 7:10. He is standing outside the extension of the sideline. Not even a close call. You called it a nice serve, but the rally actually should have been awarded to the receiving team.

And you have an old school way of playing and thinking…hitting deep heavy top spin serves and returns isn’t about getting aces or winning the point on that shot it’s setting up the next shot and the next shot if needed to win the point…you contradict yourself by saying he’s hitting serves too short but chastising them when they hit it too deep

Couldn’t get through three minutes of your video and commentary. If you stopped pausing every 12 seconds it would be slightly more watchable. They aren’t 4.0. More like 3.5. BTW-at 4.0 there is more variability in play that can effectively win. It’s not cut and dry. 😊

No, they are not 4.0. Positioning relative to teammate is a problem. Rallies are not long enough to be at 4.0 level.

No comment on the illegal serve position at 13:27?

only Sabioni has a DUPR above 4.0