This

Exactly! This is a great explanation haha. It makes no sense to have to look at the angle. I’m sure they’ll not move forward with this one, but what do you think?

⁠@@pickleballplaybookI certainly hope they don’t move forward with rule. A lot of lower level players already struggle with serving and this is going to make it even more difficult to serve legally.

Straight up!

Personally I already drop serve, and you can do things with the drop that are super cool that you could never do with a volley serve. The benefit of the drop is that I am free to just hit the ball as best I can. Plus I’ve seen a lot of people break the existing rules unknowingly with volley serving, and don’t have the heart to tell em. I think the only argument I’ve ever heard against the drop serve is wind affecting your dropped ball, which would affect everyone equally and has never been much of an issue for me without huge gusts.

Yeah I agree. It’s in its developmental stages right now… with it being so young. Once they figure out the best solution, that’s what we will all be doing. Thoughts?

Thoughts…this is hot garbage. Let’s get rid of the forward pass in football…some qbs can throw further than others and it’s not fair. No dunking in basketball…not everyone can. Any pitch over 100 is a foul…not everyone can throw that hard and can you imagine how hard it is to hit??? Unfair!!!

Totally agree. It’s all nonsense. How are they going to measure a 45 degree angle from a 47 degree. They can’t Further more these guys are pros they can hit and retrieve every shot in the book. Just let them play already. Sheez

Agree. Tennis player here and the obsession over this type of minutiae really discourages me from switching over. Not that pickleball doesn't already have enough players. Hopefully recreational games are more mellow/easygoing than this.

The point of this is to take the serve out of the game. I think this gets too technical for the average or beginner player, but it doesn't stop players from doing a drop serve and not worrying about all these technicalities. All sports have moves or techniques which more advanced players will be able to execute more than a beginner.

Or just drop serve.

Agree, it should be simple. What makes it not simple is failure to enforce the rule. The most egregious example being at the pro level (which of course trickles down) where serves are now full force volleys at or above the waist line, paddle above the wrist, refs ignore it. So, we get into the complicated metrics game of control. It’s kinda like needing to go back to the original constitution to get a grip on social sanity: go back to the original pball rule book and ENFORCE serve requirements to the original purpose of the serve, initiation of the point, that’s why the two-bounce rule is there.

Plus...tennis is a real sport...

🤣🤣

100% with you!

I’ll go you one farther. Just require the “serve” to be an underhand toss (like a softball pitch) already! 🤣

That motion is what the original intent was and measured from. The money game changed it.@@tomchien7692

Drop serve, the rest is just to complicated and subjective.

Not allowing drop serves is just dumb

This is exactly why I started drop serving. I never wanted any drama or disagreement if my volley serve was legal or not.

100%

I think it’s a step in the right direction. They should just go to a drop serve. What do you think?

Well said. Continuing to have players call lines at the highest level is bewildering given the rulebook tinkering over the last few years.

That's why they eliminated lets in college tennis. Too many guys getting aced and calling let. Low integrity

I know the ground will be different everywhere but it’s not so different that you can’t make contact with the whiffle ball. I believe in you haha!

Absolutely! I am fairly new to the game and just enjoy a spirited but friendly game. All these weekly complications are going to suck the life out of a good thing

Then why have a rule book?

I agree with not being so picky about it. I’ve seen comments about arguments on the court but at amateur level I don’t see that it really matters that much. I go to have fun and get exercise.

Yeah I agree! It’s really the only solution I can think of right now

I like playing in wind

Love your perspective. I don’t think the rule is near perfect but it’s a step in the right direction

Not really. Check your own on the sides. Just inches below your rib cage.

🤣🤣

​@@gabeanderson8816 I'm late to the party with this video. Sorry, that's the top of the pelvic bone. The hip bone is where your leg attaches, generally just above the level of your groin. Think hip hugger pants. This guy is wearing high-waisted pants.

@@SanityReigns-pz8qhyep, you’re right. Good clarification. Rulebook should use actual anatomical terms. All the ref training I’ve received has referred to the iliac crest as the “top of the hip” which is confusing

Yeah that’s the way to go

Interesting 🧐

@@pickleballplaybook so i guess like some of the other people who commented, the drop serve would solve all

Really? I didn’t know this. What rule says this? Interesting!

@@pickleballplaybook it's in the section that covers the drop serves. Rule 4.A.8.C - "the restrictions that apply to the volley serve in rule 4.A.7 do not apply to the drop serve"

🤣 I love this! I would now like to make this my signature serve. And I just checked the rules, and it looks to me like you’re absolutely correct. I was thinking beefier that navel-level spotted to both serves, but I see now that it doesn’t. Thank you for pointing this out. :)

@@liit4m8 the issue is it's almost impossible to get a ball to bounce above your waist by dropping it in the drop serve. However, If you can get used to hitting the shin high you can get a lot of spin and wrist action once you learn the mechanics

@@2kpounders461, thanks for your response. I will keep that in mind.

Very true! Pickleball is still in its infancy and has to pin down some rules. This definitely isn’t the solution but it’s a step in the right direction I believe. What do you think?

I appreciate that! What’s your name?

Patrick@@pickleballplaybook

Good point! I think if they’re going to crouch, their serve will be a lot less powerful because they are going to have to swing extremely quickly to get it before it hits the ground. This will not allow them to do a full coil and uncoil as they hit through the ball. What do you think?

@@pickleballplaybook the example at the end of the video also highlights how subtle the "toss" is... in regular speed it doesn't look like there is any upward motion but when you slow it down it shows the ball moving upward slightly. I suspect that when it comes to the pros they will "release" around waist-height but perhaps the ball will have a slight upward trajectory (barely perceptible to the human eye). This also "hangs" the ball for a short time in the air allowing more time for the swing and subsequent followthrough. While I agree that a bounce serve is probably the easiest to rule on... I absolutely love the volley serve which eliminates a few elements like wind and inconsistent bounces (small inconsistencies in the court surface, ball bounces on a hole, debris on the court).

2025, they'll restrict bending the knee at any point on the serve.

Yeah I don’t know why they don’t have it legalized in PPA! Why do you think?

There is a problem with the drop serve too. We have some young kids and short adults, they drop the ball and drive the ball hard, many seniors are having hard time to return it. we just need to watch the side spin/bounce serve.

why is that a problem? any serve you can do those same things and they are not illegal.@@KingKangUSA

I don't know how long the drop serve has been around but it was originally for players with disabilities. In 2021 it was allowed on a trial basis and in 2022 made legal for everyone.

@@jeremypuckett3382 the ball bounce same height, tall adults have disadvantages. Some parents brought their kids and I played with young tennis players; they can hit the ball with full side drive & side snap drive.

No one does! Crazy right?

I don’t know why. I’d be interested to find out though! If you find out let me know

You have to drop it. So that slight rise means I’m not dropping, I’m tossing. Does that make sense?

@@pickleballplaybook I get what they are saying, but to my opinion it doesn't matter what it does while it's still in your hand as long as it doesn't go up any once it leaves your hand.

Yeah it will be interesting to see what happens!

There’s a chance that this isn’t adopted though. Ben Johns had two pretty arbitrary faults called against him over the weekend

I appreciate that a ton! More to come ❤️

I agree that the simplest solution is universal adoption of the drop serve, @ ALL LEVELS. The challenge to this fix is, I fear, the Olympics. Going to the drop serve would be the equivalent of mandating no overhead serves in tennis, a decidedly amateurish adoption. It seems that the Olympics Poobahs are more inclined to admit racquet/paddle sports that emphasize aggression from the outset of the game (emotionalism overrules intellectualism). Of course, flag football has been admitted, not the NFL (wait, there’ll be 6’ 8”, 380# O&D linemen in Olympic flag football!). The legalization of the drop serve is, I think, an attempt to encourage a return to the original purpose of the pball serve: point initiation follow by a two-bounce return. At THAT POINT, it’s equal GAME ON. I do think that it’d be nice to get back to that, especially below the pro level. The Olympics quit being an amateur event 3 decades ago, so it’s not likely that any pball levels below pro will be in the Olympics. Pros do need to play to pro-level (& preferred Olympic-level) rules, so the volley serve could be authorized as low as the 5-level, or just restricted to the pro level.

Yeah it’s a tough one for sure. Not fun to play against someone who cheats, but also not fun to have to keep changing the serve rules

Correct!

Sorry, but imparting spin on the ball prior to a serve is illegal.

Winds not a big deal when serving. Only on every other shot

Not for this tournament! Must be dropped below the top of the hip

@@pickleballplaybook oh so any other tournaments other than this one doesn’t apply to the rules?

Correct!

Exactly. So many are serving sidearm. Just have hand under the ball. A pitcher in softball cannot serve sidearm, That is illegal. Have hand under ball on release, same as softball.

@@user-rs8kv6qy6q I don't think ppl who gripe about "too many" rules (esp. for serves) realize that the *point* of serves is not to ace most of the time (which would turn paddle / racket sports into mostly battles of serves which almost noone would want to play / watch). The *point* is to help ensure that both: a) most serves *and* b) most *returns* of most serves are returnable so that each side has a likely chance to return a ball to get a rally going. Unlike tennis, pb rules allow serves to land near the baseline, that plus the relative ease of landing a serve near the baseline even with an underhand softball pitch like toss is plenty to ensure that the returns of those serves are returnable.

Maybe but I think it’s a good step forward. Ultimately the only solution rn is the drop serve. What do you think?

Interesting Richard. I haven’t thought of that

Only for that tournament that happened this past weekend. Watch from 00:00 to 00:59

@@pickleballplaybookdid he mean CANT toss the serve? I’m under the impression that a slight toss on the volley serve is legal so long as all contact is below hips with upward swing which is angled lower then the wrist. Can you confirm? Reason I ask is because someone called me on a slight toss to my volley serve today telling me it was illegal and I don’t believe it is if all other contact requirements mentioned are met. Thank you!

Interesting

I appreciate the love! Drop serve only!

Great point! I’m tired of hearing people complain about the wind and a drop serve. Thats part of the game. What do you think?

With a little wind, the drop serve can be absolutely deadly. I'm not sure why I focused on the drop serve, but I did. The way I serve, I can hit a very spinning shot that will move 3 feet laterally as it curves over and low to the net. I can vary how much power I can put behind it to a degree. So I never really hit it the same twice. I'll push it deep, drop it short, or make it more of a power shot here and there. All with the exact same mechanics so I can disguise what serve I'm hitting quite easily. If there is wind in my face, this serve is lethal.. I can push it deep, which is my standard serve. It's not particularly hard to return, but you have to respect it, as the extreme movement and skip it takes on the bounce can very easily wind up in disaster for the returning player if they try "counter spin", or some fancy wrist shot with it. Its ofen it long or in the net if they don't just push it back. When I play new guys(even skilled ones), I'll sneak a few points if they aren't used to it. They will try something other than a vanilla return and will hit it out or in the net. But eventually, they get used to it. It tends to provoke a very predictable 2nd shot, which is why I have been told many times it's a really good serve. It's not particularly hot, but it is tricky enough that you just want to get it back over. So, we tend to have an easier 3rd shot. If there is wind in my face, I can increase the spin and decrease the power. This causes it to fly over the net, bounce short, and literally start rolling sideways. It's lethal. The wind scrubs enough speed off that it just dies when it hits. If the opposing team starts cheating up, I'll hit it deep! It's very effective. If there is a significant wind in my face, I can easily run off 4-5 or more points a serving session. If the wind is to your back, it's not particularly helpful, but if it's in your face, or one side - wow.. Now its not as sexy as a poweful volley serve, but I use it because i have learned to be very consistent with it, and I'm more interested in setting up the 3rd shot than scoring aces. The drop serve allows me to do that very well. I don't think people understand the potential of the drop serve.

It’s not that my arm is lifting after I drop, it’s that it lifts as you drop. This is because if I don’t have some lift the ball will hit the ground before I have time to swing at it. Does that help?

I completely agree. Only way to keep it fair. People complain that the drop serve is too difficult in the wind though… those are all low level players that say that. So I think at lower levels you can do either but at higher levels it should be drop only. Thoughts?

I agree! It is so much easier to manage. One problem with it might be if players start slightly tossing it up. No one serve is perfect… yet!

Maybe but I think it’s a good step forward. Ultimately the only solution rn is the drop serve. What do you think?

or the top of the paddle being above the wrist!!

Yeah that’s a great argument for the drop serve!

Exactly!

Haha remain calm! Thats completely legal to do unless you’re a pro at the PPA. Which you’re not, and neither are 99.99% of pickleball players haha

Exactly!

Haha that’d be awesome!!

I too am a tennis and PB player. Pickleball is a bit different with ground strokes. You actually want to keep an open stance as much as possible so you’re facing the court. You’re more like a goalie in Pickleball. The #1 player in the world just changed his serve to open stance (Ben John’s). Interestingly enough when my arm rose the ref said that he saw it slightly rise but wouldn’t call it. Definitely a difficult thing to monitor as a ref.

​@pickleballplaybook Open stance "goaltending" at the kitchen where the exchanges are fast is certainly correct. Crabbing in open stance provides mobility. As for groundstrokes, as clearly observable in many recent videos, when there is plenty of time to correctly set up for the shot, BJ, ALW, etc, hit with varying amounts of closed stances.

Exactly! Just go to a drop serve

Fastest growing sport!!

Probably after people got lonely due to pandemic. The community and social aspect is very strong with pickleball. The fact that it's beginner-friendly certainly has something to do with it as well.

The fences are way to close to do an overhead serve. I could easily hit the side fence every serve I do. Also this would make pickleball less inclusive and not as many people would play. Hence why there is more people that play pickleball than any other sport on the planet! What are your thoughts?

I’m not suggesting overhead serves. I think pickleball was designed to disadvantage the server. Tennis is opposite. The serve has the advantage. If pickleball wants to further disadvantage the serve maybe go to a ping pong serve. It must bounce on server’s side then in opponent’s serve box. I’m being facetious but it would certainly negate the serve.

Maybe but I think it’s a good step forward. Ultimately the only solution rn is the drop serve. What do you think?

With a stopwatch and a yardstick, you could fix your misperception with a rather trivial investment of your own grey matter. You've quoted the downward acceleration at sea level on planet Earth. Newton taught us that: d = v0 * t + 1/2 * a * t^2 With v0=0 for a motionless drop, a=9.81 m/s^2, and some rearrangement you get: t = sqrt(d) / sqrt(9.81/2) Restated in English, time (seconds) is linearly proportional to the square root of distance fallen (meters). I'm 20% taller than a woman who is 5'3" but I only get about 10% longer to hit the ball. This because sqrt(1.2) approximately equals 1.1. This doesn't matter much physically, because it's the same formula for acceleration of my backswing. My backswing is also 20% further, but it only takes 10% longer to complete at the same paddle acceleration. This cancels out physically, but not cognitively. I still have longer to plan it out. But my nerves are 20% longer and it really does take 20% longer for my nerve impulses to travel to my muscles and the sensory signal to travel back. This degrades coordination in taller people. But the paddle weighs less compared to my body mass, so it takes less relative effort to accelerate the paddle at the same rate, which boosts control, partially cancelling out the long nerve path. My high torso mass relative to my limbs helps to stabilize my swing. But it also makes running expensive and you have a lower oxygen intake to body mass ratio (hence you rarely see Shaq on the Tour de France). But maybe you can get away with running a bit less, because you can reach more without moving your feet. Except your partner is short and doesn't have the wheels to run back to defend the lob, so you end up defending the deep lob on your partner's side. You've got sasquatch legs, so no problem running back to your own diagonal corner to cover a short return when your partner can't be bothered to switch. Well, so much for standing around in one place using your long arms. Finally, I can reach a full foot deeper into the kitchen when I crouch so that my shoulder is at net height. When I stand erect, it's a 45 degree downward arm angle to place my paddle at net height, which cancels out most of my reach advantage. To get my shoulder to net height requires almost a 90 degree knee bend. Hard to run in a 90 degree knee bend. Up elevator, run to new place, down elevator. I can run fast or I can reach deep into the kitchen, but only with an elevator in between. The elevator delay is pretty significant in a fast exchange. When I don't crouch, my oblique line of sight to balls coming horizontal over the net with barely any clearance is terrible for assessing details of ball path, especially spin. There are a lot of tradeoffs against scale if you stop to think long enough. The first step on a long journey is stopping to think once.

Interesting!!!

100. I completely agree

Actually, “only way” is to require the “serve” to be an underhand toss (like a softball pitch). 🤣

But you can’t bounce it like you do a tennis ball. I did that once in a tournament without thinking & it was a fault. ( longtime tennis player)

It's not a 'bounce' serve. You can't propel it. You can only drop it which happens to allow it to bounce. People already get very confused by the word 'bounce' being incorrectly referenced.

@MrCho14 it doesn't need to be propelled to bounce. Gravity does all the work. Drop a pickleball from waist level onto a pickleball court and it will bounce even without being manually propelled

Haha this is so true! The new serve is really a serve

Why’s that?

I think it’s a good step forward. Ultimately the only solution rn is the drop serve. What do you think?

Even so. It takes very minimal hand eye coordination to hit the ball. That being said, I can see how gusty wind would be a much bigger issue

For a true "drop serve" that is true, but the rule being talked about here is not THAT drop serve.

I play on one surface, a tennis court with PB lines, where the camber for water runoff is excessive. The worst corner messes with my bounce serve something fierce, as the ball kicks to the side after the bounce, and not so consistently, either. Ball after ball goes out by six inches to the side if I don't nerf my standard mechanics. At the pro level, I suspect this is a variable they don't need.

I agree! Wind can definitely make it impossible sadly

Exactly!

Maybe but I think it’s a good step forward. Ultimately the only solution rn is the drop serve. What do you think?

Good point. I think since it has to hit the ground, any spin they apply is to their detriment cause it will give them an inconsistent bounce. Thoughts?

@@pickleballplaybook could be. but my point was there are already plenty of clear violations (and subtle edge cases) with the new drop serve.

The problem is that the rules we have had for years are being abused.

Yeah it was poor planning! Haha

Yes but it’s a step in the right direction. I think it should be drop serve only. What do you think is the solution?

People often make up their own rules when they don't know the rules.

Interestinf but I think it’s a good step forward. Ultimately the only solution rn is the drop serve. What do you think?

I half agree. Drop serve all the way. Rally scoring optional

Interesting!

Yes! That’s exactly what I think. Are you watching the masters this weekend?

@@pickleballplaybook Thanks, I'm a football guy so playoffs first lol.

Haha yeah that’s be interesting. Since the fences are so close, you could pretty easily hit the side fence with your overhead serve.

When that happens, basketball players will start to rule Pickelball.

Haha I completely agree. How funny would it be to have a T Ball stand out there? 🤣🤣🤣

There’s a huge issue! This has been very helpful to have this

Palm down?

@@pickleballplaybook yes

Good point!

💯!

True! But what do you think is the solution?

Exactly! It’s the only logical thing

I am with you!

It’s silly for sure haha. Just go to a drop serve!

It has to be in order for it to go over the net. I explain this in the video. Hopefully that helps!

Yeah it’s crazy! There definitely needs to be a restriction on how fast a paddle can be. What do you think?

You have to drop it. Does that make sense?

Haha but I think it’s a good step forward. Ultimately the only solution rn is the drop serve. What do you think?

💯

Interesting. Why?

@@pickleballplaybook I assume because it would raise the skill ceiling of the sport, which is what this commenter would like. That's obviously a value judgment though.

Yeah that’s a tough call. Glad I am not a ref!!

Yes the drop serve is legal!

totally agree, refereeing this new approach is going to be a real headache, and in rec play or friendly matches basically impossible - it's way too subtle. The drop serve is clear and distinct.

I agree! I think that’s the way to go

Exactly’

Yeah I guess we will see what the rule ends up being! The drip serve just makes sense to me

But what if there are no refs? What if it’s just rec? Who will monitor?

Why’s that?

@@pickleballplaybook for me it's just more comfortable. When I started playing I did the volly serve with horrible results of long or wide left/right and couldn't get the touch right. I had no idea you could drop the ball to the ground and serve then. I use both now depending on the situation.

Good stuff!

Yes, but they’re definitely headed in the right direction. I think the only fair thing to do is just take it to the drop serve. What do you think?

@@pickleballplaybookI think not.

Not illegal according to the head ref. He said I have the best serve he’s ever seen

Yeah 👍 where is the line though?

I agree! So simple that way

Yes, but they’re definitely headed in the right direction. I think the only fair thing to do is just take it to the drop serve. What do you think?

🙌🙌❤️

I couldn’t agree more!

Yeah that’s true. In tennis the serve is also high to low. I think the drop serve looks dope when done correctly!

Padel uses a drop serve.You can do a lot with a drop serve.

Cause why should the pro level be different from the amateur level? Thoughts?

Maybe but I think it’s a good step forward. Ultimately the only solution rn is the drop serve. What do you think?

100! Why do you think?

Yeah it is haha. This is a practice court actually but it’s still ridiculous 🤣

Exactly! They’ll probably be done away with here soon