I was a bit surprised by this clip. I think the Citation crew knew full well they couldn't land. They were maybe trying to get the ATC to acknowledge their error without coming across as obnoxious. If ATC had have replied "you are still cleared to land" I believe the Citations crew would have just gone around anyway

Kelsey As a retired controller, and also someone who is intimately aware of KSAN airport I wanted to add some insight. First of all I will agree that the controller messed up on her priority of duties, and that was the primary cause here. Here are some mitigating issues particular to SD. There is a very large 6 story parking garage just over 700 ft from the arrival end of the runway, it sits about half way up a hill from the runway and is a primary reason for the displace threshold. Prior to its construction the available landing length was about 500ft longer. The biggest issue is the garage blocks the view of runway end for some distance. If this occurred in the afternoon or evening the sun would be right down the runway making it even harder to see someone taxiing into position. It is likely possible that while entering the runway a pilot might not see someone on a 5 mile final as well for similar reasons. The lower to the ground either pilot sits the harder it is to see. I can see a scenario where the landing aircraft doesn’t see the departing one until inside of a mile. And as you will admit, the initial reaction by the pilot might be “did we miss something” prompting the question. The question by SWA about the reason probably had more to do with his thinking “okay you messed that one up, he’s going to be out of the way, why can’t I go. For those of you who write the comments about “here’s a number for you to copy”. I assure you this controller will be getting the ATC equivalent of that call.

"It's like you took a pimp suit and wrapped an airplane in it," is perhaps the most S-tier description of our livery I've ever heard. Thank you, Kelsey, for making my day.

Is it possible that the "verify clear to land" call was intended as a polite way of telling the controller they messed up and that they had no intention to land even if the answer was yes?

Yeah the Citation was taking the tactful route…. He was saying that he knew the SWA was still on the runway and asking what she wanted to do about it. They most likely weren’t planning on landing. The bigger story is the controller forgetting that she had the SWA in position and starting doing other less essential things.

Every morning when I'm driving to work and pass by the airport, I'm going to see those Southwest planes and think "pimp suit," and snicker to myself. 😂

Perhaps this is just my desire to think the best of people, but I interpret the Citation's "Please confirm" call as a subtle way of saying "Uhhh - lady, there's a problem here, WTF?" Which if true, worked. We will obviously never know but I choose to believe that if the tower had said "go ahead and land" the Citation would have called the go-around on their own.

I am a retired FAA controller. A single runway and crossing runways operations increase the opportunities for errors. The safest runway operations are parallel runways for just arrivals and just departures.

Kelsey throwing shade at SWA "looks like a 73 in a pimp suit" LMAO!

9:40 I don't believe the Cessna was "asking for clearance." I believe he was alerting the controller to the fact that she seemed to have forgotten ... That she had an airliner already sitting on his runway.

Maybe "Confirming clearance to land" was just nicer than, "Hey dingbats! There's a big ole jet on my landing strip!"

I feel like the citation pilot asking if there were still cleared to land was a way of calling the controller an idiot, like 'you cleared me to land and then put someone on the runway in front of me?'

Kelsey, I can see the Citation pilot asking to verify they are still cleared to land. I think it was a non-invasive way to point out to the controller there was a plane on the runway. Had the controller reaffirmed the landing clearance, the Citation pilot could have come back with, “You have an airplane sitting on the runway. We’re going missed.” The Citation pilot’s request could be similar to when you are flying off your assigned heading and the controller says, “Kelsey74, verify you’re flying heading 340.” You turn to 340 because you were on a 360 heading and tell the controller you’re sorry and on 340 now. Just my two cents.

Is the Citation pilot really intending to land or, seeing the Southwest, just asking about the clearance as a passive way to get the tower to notice something isn't right?

Born and raised in San Diego, I flew a lot with my family… to show my age, we chose to fly on PSA (the planes with a smile)! That airport is a crazy place to be. High rise buildings all around and a tall parking garage right in front of the runway. As teens we would park on the uppermost level (open with no roof) and watch the planes come in for landing right over us. The planes were so low to the top of the parking structure that we could see all the details of the bottom of the jets as they came in for landing. Years later I heard they demolished the top two levels of that parking garage in order to give the landing planes more room in case they were coming in a little low. If memory serves me right, it was six levels later dropped to four. The rumor was that pilots considered San Diego’s Lindbergh Field to be one of the scariest airports to land on in the US… one of, not the worst, but close to it until that garage was lowered.

pimp suit and wrapped a plane in it !!!!!!!! priceless

As someone that fully trained over 25 years ago as a Canadian ATC but never did it live, I've been confused if something has changed. An airplane only got clearance to land if they now "owned" the runway. Multiple planes would never got clearance to land, and no plane would be told to enter the runway after someone had clearance to land. The same applied to takeoff clearance. Basically, only one plane could have takeoff/landing clearance for a runway. Other aircraft would be told "expect clearance". I even experienced this when we were taken up in TC100, the Transport Canada plane that was (is?) used to calibrate all landing systems in Canada. Back then a Twin Otter was used, and YVR's northern parallel runway 08/26 had yet to be built. After a tour of the area, when we returned to YVR we were told there'd be a 20 minute hold until we could land. The controller, though, quickly recognized the abilities of the plane and the skills of the pilots and came back to ask if we could land on runway 31 and hold short of the main runway. When our pilot said we could, we were cleared to land and the plane on final for runway 26 (now 26L) and were told of the traffic to our right which was heavy a few miles out. The heavy was given the winds, told of of us as traffic, and was told to expect clearance. When we landed and came to stop in under 1000', our pilot quickly radioed that we were stopped. Only then was the heavy that was about to land cleared for the landing. As we started a 180 turn on the runway to taxi back the opposite way, the slowing heavy roared past us. I know it's possible that Canada does things a bit different, but since most things are the same world wide I'm curious if this is just a difference or is instead something that has changed since then.

Clearly that confirmation of clearance was three pilots way of redirecting the controller to the issue that was building.

Kelsey: I’m a retired military controller who’s worked both single runway and multiple runway operations. I found the single runway operation to be harder. But I was taught to NEVER give a landing clearance when I had an aircraft in position and hold. I was taught to tell the inbound aircraft to “continue” until I sorted out the aircraft on the runway.

If I remember correctly, the Air Canada flight that nearly landed on the taxiway with several airliners on it also asked several times to verify cleared to land, because he was seeing something and wasn't sure. Then someone spoke up, Air Canada went around and didn't create one of the largest disasters in aviation history. Basically, asking the tower to verify you're cleared to land is saying, "something smells fishy around here, please verify it's clear on your end".

"It's like you took a pimp suit and wrapped a plane in it." Best description of Southwest's livery on the internet.

Kelsey, your style and production quality are really ramping up! Just wanted to let you know it is noticed and appreciated. Thanks for all you do!

Citation’s confirmation call was not asking to land over the 737, it was a call to the controller asking him to sort this mess out. Same thing happened to me once. On final a 727 was cleared onto the runway in front of me. I ask for confirmation to land, quicker than “hey, do you know there’s a plane in my flight path, what’s going on?” And smarter than an automatic go around. Controller asked me to side step to the parallel and I landed no muss no fuss.

My bet is they double checked the landing clearance to focus the controller's attention on the dangerous situation she set up. I suspect if landing clearance had been restated, they would have immediately announced a go around.

Regarding that citation requesting confirmation. Clearly, the controller forgot about them. If they are going to go around, it's not a bad idea to let the controllers know that they are about to be low and over the runway and not clear Southwest for takeoff at the same time.

I'm thinking that when Southwest asked for the reason for them clearing the runway is that they wanted to see if ATC would take blame for forgetting about them. They knew the reason.

Sometimes landing traffic for Chicago Midway flies over my house. I mentally refer to this as the Parade of Planes, but, since it’s predominantly Southwest planes, it shall henceforth be known as the Parade of Pimps.

This is some really unbelievable decision making.

"It's like you took a pimp suit and wrapped an airplane in it!" This will stick with me for quite a while! I flew in and out of Lindbergh for decades while living there (that name is retired, it is now San Diego International Airport). The nasty steep approach that must be taken is always a consideration to many and it is very noticeable with the passengers. They get a lot of traffic for a one runway facility. It is no excuse for how ATC handled this, but I cannot imagine how they handle the traffic with just the one runway.

I miss your intros..."I'm a 747 pilot, this channel 74 Gear is all about aviation...lets get into it..."

I so love ready your post Kelsey, as my Father bought himself a small piper in his later years, as he had been in the military as a pilot .... He would tell me all these stories and my old DOD Boss was a retired Marine Col., Korean War Pilot, even wounded and my last DOD job was at an airbase working for the Army. I retired here in Australia as a teacher and met many US ex-servicemen who like me were recruited to work for different companies like Qantas, and Hawker de Havilland Aerospace and after Ronnie Reagan broke the controller's union, several got jobs here (including free health care and Medicine Price Caps). The US VA told me last month that there are still over 30,000 Veterans working here, plus over 300,000 American citizens living here. Your post bring back some good times I had... thanks so much.

If I had been the Southwest Pilot or the Citation Pilot..."Tower do you have paper and pen? Good...I have a number for you to write down." Wow! Absolutely crazy! Have a great week everyone!

I was at a controlled airport in Indiana and witnessed 2 planes play "Hopscotch". Plane 1 landed over lined up & waiting plane 2, then plane 2 took off & climbed over landed plane 1 prior to them exiting runway and entering taxiway. It took me a second before I thought wait, WHAT? Glad I was 3rd to depart.... Bad day for the controller, luckily good day for planes 1 & 2......

A plane wrapped in a pimp suit 😂😂😂😂😂. Another great video with a sprinkle of fun. Thanks

Citations can be flown single pilot if it's non-commercial operations (IE the aircraft owner flying it). I am actually subscribed to a KZfaq channel that is exactly this - a rich guy flying his citation around the country. I could easily see a general aviation pilot making this radio call, especially if they are unfamiliar with the airport. "There's no way the tower just - forgot - about that southwest plane sitting there, but they cleared me - so do they actually expect me to land over it? Or did they really make a big mistake? Maybe they have special rules here...". When in doubt, call the tower.

I dont think 4HV would have landed, even if they got cleard for landing a 2nd time. It sound like a reminder to ATC that they might have done a mistake without calling them out for it.

This last week i flew from TUL to ORD to MIA then MIA to IAH to TUL and spent all my time at the airports using what you explain to analyze what was going on around me. Thank you for making it so much easier to understand the goings on at airports. It really helps with my flight anxiety.

Personally, I think the Citation pilot was trying to give the controller a heads up that she made a boo boo. Which she quickly realized. And the controller? New on the job? Who knows.

Traffic Control messed up... can't understand how they didn't see SW's colorful plane. I guess they're human too! 😮🤔🤣 Glad no one was hurt. george 😎🤿🦈🐙🇺🇲 TEXAS

It's something my flight instructor taught me about the difference in flying in Canada vs. the US. In Canada, if the pattern is particularly busy, you might not get clearance to land until you're basically "inside the fence" (fine for VFR traffic) because the controllers only authorize one clearance at a time - cleared to take off, cleared to land, etc. In the US, you can get clearances way back and they'd send several aircraft to take off in the meantime. Just like here you had two aircraft on final both cleared to land, then you send the Southwest to wait on the runway (most pilots would generally expect a expedited takeoff). I can't really fault the Citation for asking - it's less a "we intend to land - can we still land" and more of a "Did you forget about us?" message. After all, once cleared, there is no need for further communications until you touch down. So I see it more as a "Hey' we're stillhere, is our clearance still valid because the runway doesn't look ready"

This scenario is similar to what happened to USAir 1493 at LAX in 1991 when the controller forgot that an aircraft was on the runway and cleared a Skywest Metroliner to land resulting in numerous fatalities when the commuter collided with the 737-300 awaiting takeoff.

Hi Kelsey, I’m SP typed in the CE525. The CJ4 is a single-pilot certified jet. I would say about half are operated that way and half with a crew.

When the private jet asked are we cleared to land that second time I think they where doing something similar to how computers will ask a second time if you want to delete something. Because of the double check I wonder if the private jet saw the Southwest jet and had some doubts about the situation.

5:32 “deer on the runway” 🦌. We need the video on that!! 😄

Why does the US insist on giving clearances when the runway isn’t actually clear? Once the Citation was cleared to land, nothing else should be allowed on the runway.

If I’m on the southwest jet sitting on the runway.. if my pilots felt something unsafe I’d want them to be bossy as you say and get us clear of the situation.

Im a retired space shuttle controller. I wanted to add something I think you glossed over. As PIC you have the authority to break any rule you deem necessary to ensure the safety of your mission.

I definitely felt the terror adrenaline sweats that the controller must’ve felt when she realized the predicament. I’m a retired railroad train director. I know that feeling of “did I just screw up?” I doubt any conscientious person hasn’t had that feeling. I was very fortunate that at least I could say “train 755, bring your train to a safe stop.” “Tower to plane 757”, bring your plane to a safe stop.” just doesn’t work. I’ve watched a remote TRACOM( ?) display of New York airspace. And I thought Jay Interlocking was complicated.

I think the "reasoning?" call from the Southwest pilot at the end was much more an indication that he was pissed at the ATC messing up. And her tone of voice after his question indicated she also realised the same thing. Also I think the landing plane was seeking confirmation of clearance to land because he was deciding whether or not to do a go around, and probably would have done so had she not suddenly realised the situation and told him to.

My son in law was an air traffic controller during operation desert storm. One day during the battle he called me from the jon to confess he had goofed up by assigning a fast mover (I don’t recall maybe an F-15] on a runway that was occupied by a helicopter. The F 15 was 20 miles out when he assigned the runway telling the pilot to let him know when he was 2 miles out. This completely forgetting the F-15 would cover that distance in about 40 seconds. Fortunately he had the plane go around before anything bad happened.

The pilots asking for confirmation on the landing clearance, i think it was their way of politely letting tower know she f-ed up.

Sounded to me like the CJ was trying to give the controller a subtle nudge to wake her up to the fact that she was indeed behind the power curve and had to get her priorities straight.

Very clear explanation without which I would be very confused just listening to all the speed talking. Thank you.

Love your content, Kelsey. I’ve been in a situation where ATC has lined me up on a runway with inbound traffic and just sat us there. Like the Southwest pilots, I chimed in. Thankfully that controller realized what they did and got us moving.

Getting a landing clearance while the runway is still occupied or you are cleared to land as number 2, 3, 4… is something I only know from the US. In Europe and all other countries I’ve been flown you generally won‘t get a landing clearance when the runway was not clear of other traffic (PANS ATM 7.10.1, 7.10.2). The only deviation to this would be „reduced runway separation minima“ which would in this case have required - amongst other prerequisites - that the SWA was already airborne and has passed a point of at least 2400m from the landing threshold (PANS ATM 7.11.7)

Well that was interesting. That Controller needs a phone number to call. LOL Glad no one got hurt.

I always worry about things like this because the Daniel Oduber Quiros Airport in Liberia Costa Rica, place I fly in and out of, only has one runway and when things go haywire they so seriously haywire. Developed a sinkhole on the runway four or five years ago and it thew the place into chaos for several weeks.

One possibility is that the citation pilots asked for the clearance a second time, not necessarily to land but in order to remind the controller that there was a plane on the runway. Kinda of like, “hey are you sure you want us to land?”

When I was doing my flight training (2007 - 2009), I had a similar situation. I was holding short, and I there was a "simulated emergency" comming in. The tower cleared me onto to the runway, and told them (a simulated emergency flight) to go around! I followed ATC blindly and entered the runway. Today, I would have replied: "Negative, simulated emergency on short final">

Thanks for explaining that detail about not being allowed to land on a runway when it is occupied (even in the case of a vey long runway with a plane getting ready to exit at the end).

Good insight into this potentially serious incident like you do always.

"possible tower deviation, be ready to copy a phone number" really, the biggest error was telling southwest to line up and wait. tower should have either cleared them for takeoff, or told them to stop short. - and with the citation coming in after, I would have leaned towards stop short, because of wake turbulence. (but I don't know the parameters involved, there, so I could be wrong.) as or the second request for clearance from the citation, it sounded more to me like a "are you really telling me I can land over another plane?" call, than an "I see a problem, and I want to land anyway" call. and of course, the biggest thing. now I want to hear about the deer on the runway.

Hey Kelsey, you had me 😂😂😂😂😂 at that southwest color scheme comment....."It looks like you took a pimp suit and wrapped a airplane in it!!" As hilarious as this is, I cannot unsee this now. From now on, Southwest will be known as PimpPlane in my book!! 😂😂😂😂😂

Kelsey, great to see this new post. You are such a treasure! Just don't understand why your company hasn't promoted you to Captain long ago, AND named your their Director of Education for the flying public. Thanks so much for all you do ~ you are the best!

I was an Uber driver between retirement and Social Security. I picked up a pilot and we started discussing the parking garage, and how it grew an extra floor during construction. He said when he was flying learjets for the Coast Guard station San Diego, the garage wasn't a concern. When he went commercial, flying L1011s that garage got a lot taller. He said all he could do was set up the landing, and hope for the best. Read some San Diego history. " The mountains are tall, and the emperor is far away ". An interesting history, with more than a little corruption.

I fly a lot for work on the commercial airlines. I love seeing your content to get an idea of what's going on around me while I'm in that steel tube. 😊 While these kinds of videos are concerning, I have no worries about flying these days. Love hearing all the checks and balances that a lot of good people do when it comes getting everyone where they're going safely! 👍

When you gave the hypothetical of should be able to stop (at 8:50), it brought back memories of flight training. Just because you should be able to stop in a given distance does not mean you will be able to stop in that distance. Brakes fail, throttles stick, etc. Never, ever, ever, use a runway if there is another aircraft on it.

Great content. Super delighted to see Kenya Airways livery (Yaay, my home airline) between 6:14 to 6:20 though I know they don't operate in San Diego. They do Nairobi to JFK. Always enjoy your videos Kelsey. Cheers.

My guess is that the pilots of the Citation were gobsmacked to see a plane there. I think the more honest version of their question would have been "WTF did you clear us to land on a runway with a plane on it?"

That's scary!!! I just landed there in July!! Makes me a bit nervous about the San Diego California airport!!! She needs a retraining period!!

Kelsey! Stop it! You made coffee come out my nose holes when you described the Southwest livery as a pimp suit wrapped around an airplane. 🤠😎

Oh let’s go!! I’ve been watching you for a few years now and this is I think, the first time you’ve talked about Lindbergh field! I’m only a minute in, but just living here knowing how bad it is with the mountains, I’m surprised you don’t have more stories here!

I think the Citation pilot, which could be single pilot, was verifying landing clearance as a way to prompt the tower to give go around instructions. Also helps to know if she was going to clear the SW for take off under neath them. 100% controller error, but they don’t get a number to call.

Kelsey yesterday was the fifty-fifth anniversary of the 747!

As a Student Piot my instructor had me land and take off at KDFW twice for some advance training. It was a blast because i was flying a Diamond DA40 so I had a lot of things to prioritize. I got my license later in life and wish I had done it earlier and made a career out of it. Flying is so much fun and your office has the best views!

I really hope you never stop making videos Kelsey. I’ve watched every one of your episodes since I first found your channel in late 2019 and I so much look forward to your videos every week

Honest question why would someone ever have a plane line up and wait when there's only 1 single runway? I'd imagine it'd be hold short of runway or just line up and you're cleared for take off.

The hardest thing for me becoming a pilot would be understanding what’s being said on the radio.

An USAF bomber pilot told me that he was in the landing pattern while flying GA with several other aircraft and the Controller asked them all if they were comfortable landing simultaneously on the 1.5 mile runway because there was a aircraft on an emergency approach. All of the pilots agreed, landed safely, and quickly cleared the runway. I think that there were four GA craft in the landing.

Many years ago, I went to Las Vegas to work trade shows in the days when I was in the tech industry. One flight in, the pilot did two go-arounds. After the first one, he told us ATC had a plane just about to take off as we were very close to landing. We climbed back up into the pattern, came in a second time, and ATC did the same thing again. Third time, there was nobody on the runway. The pilot explained that while the planes on the runway were starting to roll, if they had to abort takeoff for any reason, our plane would be at risk of hitting them. On the way off the plane, most everyone stopped to thank the pilot for erring on the side of caution. As it happens, we were about 30 minutes early when first approaching, and ultimately landed at the time we were supposed to arrive.

My only question; why did SWA have to vacate the runway if the citation was on a GA? Why not clear them for takeoff after the citation flew the missed approach??

Kelsey: I think the controller was issuing instructions using rote memory and didn’t have proper situational awareness and mis-prioritized her workload.

"Pimp suit and wrapped an airplane in it" @7:18! I love it

I know I'm not an ATC in the real world but I'm a virtual ATC in the UK. The one thing I was taught is to prioritise. When I'm on a tower, the main thing is to ensure the runway is used safely and efficiently. If clear an aircraft to land on a 5 mile final, there's no way I'd line up an aircraft on the runway. In this scenario, if I wanted to get the south west out ahead of the cessna, I'd tell them to continue approach and check the South West is ready for departure. If they are, I'd clear the south West for immediate take off. As soon as the wheels are off the ground, I'd clear the cessna to land. If the South West wasn't ready, I'd ask them to report when ready for departure and clear the Cessna to land. I cannot understand why the controller speaks to a pilot number 4 for take off. From listening to ATC it seems US and UK/European control is different.

I have always wondered why, in the US, aircraft can be cleared to land when the runway is still occupied. I believe this would not happen in the UK. I have never been given an actual “cleared” to land unless the runway was actually clear.

Insane ! Would love to hear more re the Lindbergh tower controller , SW & Citation guy must have called someone re this ?

Thank you, another great video Kelsey... As usual extremely enthusiastic, entertaining and very interesting !!!! I always look forward to seeing them.... I can't wait for the next one.... Roger.... Pembrokeshire UK

When I was taught radio, I learned that the word "confirm" can either be used when you think that you misheard/misunderstood something and need assurence that you heard it correctly, or as a "polite" way to tell ATC that you think they are talking nonsense and might need to reconsider, if what they instructed you to do is indeed what they want you to do. E.g. if they are confusing the runways and instruct you to do a downwind landing, you can say "confirm runway in use is runway XX". I imagine that the word "verify" is used in a similar fashion in this case. ...And as mentioned your are always allowed to do a go around, in case you don't like to follow the instruction to land. So I interpret the "verify still cleared to land" as the pilot's way to draw the attention of the ATC back to where it should be, namely dealing with a critical situation of a potential collision, rather than being sidetracked by regulating some minor important things. He probably saw the plane on the runway and just delayed the go around for as long as he considered it reasonably safe to do so. My guess was that he was prepared to do the go around whether ATC had instructed him or not.

As a Marine who went to Boot Camp in San Diego, I couldn't help but be amused that the graphics depicting the airport also encompassed Marine Corps Recruit Depot San Diego within the animated white border. We became intimately familiar with the air traffic patterns at the airport as there is nothing but a chain-link fence between the Depot and the AOA of the airport.

Great content. You usually show what happens when pilots mess up eg: call this number …. What about the ATC operators? Who do they have to call?? 25 yr WN Ground Ops retired. Thanks for the channel.

San Diego has needed a new airport for decades. Lindbergh is right in the middle of everything. I used to live on Bankers Hill and could see the rivets on the planes as they came in to land. One runway for a city that size is crazy.

pimp suit wrapped airplane... 😂😂 i love all the technical explanation, but love it when humor is added

Really nice graphics! Something new? Makes the videos even better!

Did Kelsey really say a “pimp suit?” Please tell me I heard that wrong 🤣 I always look forward the sarcasm, dry humor, and great situation breakdowns.

I think it makes all kinds of sense that he asked. Of course he wouldn't land, he just gave her the chance to redeem herself. It's a lot less shameful than him going 'miss, are you trying to let me land on that bloody plane?'.

I hope that controller was sent for re-training!!!

Would the southwest plane be allowed to exit the runway without authorization?

7:16 "Look at these colors, it's like you took a pimps suit and warped an airplane in it." 🤣

San Diego/Lindburgh is etched in my old memory as the place where the PSA jet and the private plane collided midair in the 70's. Just one runway, and all those houses nearby. This is the LAST airport where you'd want to mess anything up.

I really would have liked the atc response and know when they were given takeoff 🛫 clearence.