Pilot Refuses To Go Around

Рет қаралды 1,569,333

Ай бұрын

Enjoy this episode of 3 Minutes of Aviation!
✈ SOURCES / FURTHER INFORMATION
TAP Airbus A321neo landing on nose wheel
• THE WILDEST LANDING EV...
Qatar Airways Airbus A350 losing centerline during crosswind takeoff
• STORM FREYA - Scary sh...
Aerosucre Boeing 727 extremely low takeoff
• Takeoff boeing 727-200...
SATA Air Acores Dash 8 bumpy crosswind landing
• "Nerves of Steel" INCR...
Southwest Boeing 737 bouncing on landing
• By Far The Bounciest C...
P-51 Mustang steep takeoff
• P-51 Mustang Screaming...
Surinam Airways Airbus A340 extreme crosswind landing
• The very crabby last e...
✈ BECOME PART OF THE CHANNEL
Merch Store - teespring.com/stores/3-minute...
✈ CONTACT ME
Submit videos, give feedback, ask questions - 3minutesofaviation@gmail.com
If you liked the video, please subscribe and turn on notifications - I appreciate it!

Пікірлер: 918

@TheKaidynB Ай бұрын

Remember, it’s easier for you to explain why you went around than for the investigators to figure out why you didn’t

@zacharysieg2305 Ай бұрын

Underrated comment

@rilmar2137 Ай бұрын

🎶You can always go around🎶

@steveshuffle Ай бұрын

Wait until they watch the video..

@Vishnu-B Ай бұрын

If he does go around, he will have to explain to his bosses why he cost the airline more fuel and turn around time by going around... and thats no easy conversation.

@CrazyPanda688 Ай бұрын

Easier than explaining to your boss why you cost the airline more money by going around

@michaelocyoung Ай бұрын

"I know, I'll stand and film in front of an Aerosucre taking off. I'm sure nothing can go wrong."

@TexJester-no8th Ай бұрын

It's not like an Aerosucre hasn't taken out that fence before or nuthin ......

@KCFlyer2 Ай бұрын

That's the same airport where the 727 hit that shack and tree and eventually crashed. If this video was after that, the guy had a death wish. If it was before that, I imagine he never stood directly in front again

@CHAuto333 Ай бұрын

Famous last words...

@janentomenkafka Ай бұрын

That's exactly what I thought...

@Andrew_Fernie Ай бұрын

Getting wrapped up in and dragged into the sky with barbed wire looks like a reasonably likelyhood

@D.K.-nh1uv Ай бұрын

That TAP landing was something else. Really makes one appreciate the mechanical strength of that nose gear.

@ElectricPics Ай бұрын

Yes, but we don't know how much damage was done, and there would have been damage.

@jake_ Ай бұрын

This will be a very expensive landing for the airline.

@davidwild102 Ай бұрын

Airbus !!

@davidwild102 Ай бұрын

@@ElectricPics no damage !! Apenas foi para estacionar na Madeira para o outro dia !! Foi para vários destinos no dia seguinte !!

@davidwild102 Ай бұрын

@@jake_ PORQUE ? NÃO TEVE DANOS !!

@jamesrebbechi5247 Ай бұрын

AeroSucre: “No fence is too low”.

@gegessen159 Ай бұрын

"damn, we missed the fence again"

@ahmadfarizbinmokhtar7106 Ай бұрын

Too high

@scottstewart5784 Ай бұрын

@@ahmadfarizbinmokhtar7106 though I was the only stickler

@gl1363 Ай бұрын

What fence?

@cris_261 Ай бұрын

No plane is too overloaded.😂

@pstrzel Ай бұрын

Can we all agree that any Aerosucre takeoff can now be labeled as "just another normal Aerosucre takeoff"?

@neilyoungman9814 Ай бұрын

It's not a normal Aerosucre takeoff if it uses less than 90% of the runway or it clears the perimeter fence by more than 5 metres.

@frimmbits Ай бұрын

Yes. Like the normal Ryanair landinga

@Twobarpsi Ай бұрын

They know what they are doing...

@mitseraffej5812 Ай бұрын

They all look to be the same take off.

@swapnilmankame Ай бұрын

@@Twobarpsi tell that to aerosucre flight 157

@BoloH. Ай бұрын

Aerosucre's V1 is about 300 feet after the end of the runway.

@aerodaan Ай бұрын

No, they would rather have a very low V1, as they are always committed to take off!

@Andy90B Ай бұрын

🤣😂 made my day

@martinkirugi254 Ай бұрын

🤣🤣🤣

@petefcferris Ай бұрын

If an Aerosucre Boeing 727 isn't heavily loaded and doesn't struggle to lift before the runway end, is it even an Aerosucre Boeing 727?

@doglover31418 Ай бұрын

What are they carrying? How heavy can it be?

@LithiumSurfboard Ай бұрын

@@doglover31418 The density of cocaine is 1.216 gm/cc, which is denser than water, so if you can imagine...................... 😀

@doglover31418 Ай бұрын

@@LithiumSurfboard I can see clearly now, the pain is gone, I can see all obstacles in my way.......

@user-kz4ke8mg4r Ай бұрын

727? That's a dinosaur! I think I've seen this clip somewhere before and the comment was that it was only the curvature of the Earth that kept it airborne!

@jamesrebbechi5247 Ай бұрын

@@user-kz4ke8mg4r Fair comment but they’re Gangster to fly.

@rocketdyneF1 Ай бұрын

1:12 how many times have we seen this clip now? Aerosucre never ceases to amaze me.

@johnt.4947 Ай бұрын

Which is why that clip still plays!

@JohnRinNoHo Ай бұрын

Are you sure it's the same clip?

@wezob4569 Ай бұрын

This is exactly what i said😅

@SoyCapi_781 Ай бұрын

Tap Portugal plane: I arrived, I'm not doing the damn approach again

@stephensowell9578 Ай бұрын

That could be it. Most of the tough ones like that had complex approaches. He may have thought, "I made it here; I'm setting it down."

@websitesthatneedanem Ай бұрын

Flaps problem / wrong setting?

@athgt6630 Ай бұрын

No, you're not.

@TheRocco96 Ай бұрын

TAP = Take Another Plane

@FreibertX Ай бұрын

@@websitesthatneedanem Cross winds - the were the first to land after numerous flights hat to go around . came in from Porto Santo without any passengers, maybe they wanted to test - next flights went around again, crazy day alt FNC! - plane had to go under maintenance //

@soupfork2105 Ай бұрын

I think simply putting "Aerosucre" in the segment title is enough. No need to explain. We know what's coming. :)

@Flo2806 Ай бұрын

There's "balls of steel" and then there is "standing at the end of a runway with an AEROSUCRE trying to get airborne"

@TexJester-no8th Ай бұрын

"Brains of balsa wood"??

@MikeC2K10 Ай бұрын

It's just like Sint Maartin!

@AlfaGiuliaQV Ай бұрын

@@MikeC2K10 Only 10 times worse

@russbell6418 Ай бұрын

It’s always this clip. I hope they usually are not this overloaded, but who knows.

@HeraclesTheBudgie 17 күн бұрын

But don’t forget; The cameraman never dies

@theodoreolson8529 Ай бұрын

"This heavily loaded Aerosucre Boeing 727-200 struggles to lift off before the runway end" Cut and paste this line.

@rilmar2137 Ай бұрын

It's a classic

@VanderlyndenJengold Ай бұрын

So it's not the same video over and over again? How they're not banned from operating I don't know!

@pdxyyz4327 Ай бұрын

They isn't a plane flying a low altitude, that's just a land speeder doing its thing

@azandy99 Ай бұрын

@@VanderlyndenJengold This is the same video, but sometimes it's good to relive the classics.

@andromedach Ай бұрын

Naturally it should be read out loud by David Attenborough

@bullseyes1983 Ай бұрын

The Southwest pilot logged himself 3 landings.

@gordonbryan8381 Ай бұрын

Exactly. The 3 landings portion of his or her 90 day FAA currency was was satisfied in just 1 leg, not 3 legs like the better pilots do.

@caseyherman5441 Ай бұрын

That dude needs about 1,000 hours in the stimulator!

@JuggoJuggo Ай бұрын

That looked like a work of art.

@bricefleckenstein9666 Ай бұрын

I'm pretty sure that was Lindburg, which doesn't normally have a lot of wind. It IS fairly short for an international airport runway, with fairly steep approaches (downtown San Diego and skyscrapers close one way, Point Loma and it's rather tall ridge the other way).

@JuggoJuggo Ай бұрын

@@bricefleckenstein9666 That landing reeks of, "Don't worry, I got this." I don't know much about aviation but that landing looked talented as heck, but ill advised beyond belief.

@Billybobble1 Ай бұрын

I think we need a spin-off channel "3 Minutes of Aerosucre"

@TexJester-no8th Ай бұрын

Here, here!! You seeing this, TMOA??

@robs5688 Ай бұрын

Brilliant.

@russbell6418 Ай бұрын

3 minutes of barely aviating?

@StarTrekMarco Ай бұрын

Luckily for the beachgoers there, Aero Sucre doesn't fly to St. Maarten airport.

@lh457725 Ай бұрын

That Dash 8 landing was awesome.

@FlyingDarkLord 24 күн бұрын

One hell of a pilot 😮👍🏼

@majik1973 12 күн бұрын

This is exactly the comment I came looking for. Nothing like getting ready to set down and thinking "why are we facing THIS way?"

@TheUtuber999 Ай бұрын

Always nice to see the Aerosucre lawnmower in action. 👏

@jeffjames4064 Ай бұрын

Lawnmower nothing, more like a weed Wacker.

@magikjoe3789 Ай бұрын

Aerosucre keeping below enemy radar as always

@TheImperialChannel Ай бұрын

*Title should read, "Pilot Refuses to Quit Rodeo"*

@tillposer Ай бұрын

0:42 For anybody who does not know the Funchal Airport, the part where the plane finally comes to a halt is a huge bridge structure on pylons. And that little green area at the end, 500 yards from that place... that is where the bridge ends, it goes 70 yards straight down into the sea, like the end of an aircraft carrier. I remember looking from the Ponta de São Lourenco when a plane tried to land three times on this miserable strip of concrete on rather windy day...

@johnandrews3568 Ай бұрын

It's a good thing El Dorado International is at 2500m elevation, enabling Aerosure to take off flat and lose altitude to the next airport.

@TexJester-no8th Ай бұрын

Still gotta clear the fence, trees, and idjit photographers....

@user-nk4td9bg6w Ай бұрын

@texjester-no8th Clearing the fence and obstacles is just a recommendation there xD they measure TODA and TORA from the threshold to the nearest body of water haha

@olivergoodman93 Ай бұрын

That P51 whistle ❤

@TexJester-no8th Ай бұрын

And the sound of that Merlin .... 😍🥰❤️

@armatian Ай бұрын

@@TexJester-no8thPackard Merlin, btw anyone knows how close to original are the engines now?

@threeputt3642 Ай бұрын

Yes indeed! Gives me goosebumps every time I hear one. Even at the end of Top Gun Maverick I might replay that a few times.

@ChefDuane Ай бұрын

My dad flew P51 escort out of RAF Bodney. 8th AF 352FG. "The Blue Nose Bastards of Bodney." Last plane P51D 4143849 "Little Buster"

@maerklin29800 Ай бұрын

Bro we have to give props to you that the situation in the thumbnail is shown directly in the first clip🤙🏽🙏🏼

@jtirello3_111 Ай бұрын

That Dash80 pilot got skillz.

@landingslowly Ай бұрын

Landing on your nose gear is just unbelievable... The ground effect, like, he was putting his nose down yet he wasn't lowering in altitude!

@princekamoro3869 Ай бұрын

Twin Otters approach like that. Airbuses are not supposed to approach like that.

@gordonbryan8381 Ай бұрын

Ground effect has NOTHING to do with this landing. Did you hear the wind whistling in the audio? See the airplane bouncing around in the turbulence? Crew should have gone around. When you find yourself at a nose down attitude in ANY Airbus over ANY runway, you are about to screw the pooch.

@Shrike200 Ай бұрын

Nice example of the gun ports whistling on that Mustang.

@threeputt3642 Ай бұрын

Absolutely love the sound of that Mustang engine.

@rustynail3893 Ай бұрын

Wow, I thought that was someone yelling! Badass

@teeanahera8949 Ай бұрын

Wouldn’t those ports be blanked off?

@notsmoothsteve Ай бұрын

Pretty sure describing an Aerosucre takeoff as "extremely low" is redundant 😛

@TexJester-no8th Ай бұрын

Especially when they go gear up as soon as the gear is off the ground to clean up the aerodynamics, and use ground effect to gain speed .....

@Tiffany_Waiting Ай бұрын

The P-51 at is taking off from Akron Fulton AKA Akron Executive Airport, AKR. The Goodyear Airdock is visible (where airships of various types were born.).

@afridgetoofar1818 Ай бұрын

I taken off and landed there many times.

@Paul-vf2wl 20 күн бұрын

Is he even taking off or is it just a fly-by?

@LordFalconsword Ай бұрын

That TAP Airbus landing was insane.

@Airman_Fu Ай бұрын

Those Dash-8 pilots are awesome! Gotta get those hours in.

@supa3ek Ай бұрын

That cow mooing @ 1:34 was perfect to sum up these landings

@rdspam Ай бұрын

“Good morning folks and thank you for flying Southwest. This is Captain Kangaroo, welcome aboard…”

@johngraves6878 Ай бұрын

That opening landing shot was really something. The pilot REALLY had difficulty making contact with the ground! The air currents seemed determined to keep him aloft.

@harvey364 Ай бұрын

Which makes me think that even a junior rookie pilot would have elected to go around! What was he thinking?....

@countryfucius Ай бұрын

2:21 The original Goodyear Blimp hangar.

@tomlee7956 Ай бұрын

I must congratulate the Aerosucre dispatchers for their precise takeoff calculations and also their pilots for taking performance to the limit. Captain, B757

@mikelastname Ай бұрын

I hear that Aerosucre use run-flat tyres in case they hit the spikes on the fence during takeoff.

@tomlee7956 Ай бұрын

@@mikelastname I haven't heard that but it would not surprise me with these guys... Aerosucre 4EVER!

@runswithbeer Ай бұрын

Nothing like watching planes land while hearing cows moo in the background!

@ChristopherMay Ай бұрын

Aerosucre might have been the least commentable part of this week's upload except that I'm still commenting on them because, you know, Aerosucre!

@D.K.-nh1uv Ай бұрын

Exactly

@henry3092 Ай бұрын

Hello from Ghana

@rharbarenko Ай бұрын

Stoppies on a motorcycle: COOL Stoppies on an A321neo: NOT COOL.

@E4RLIES Ай бұрын

I love landing at Funchal ❤ The approach for 05 is wild, respect to all the captains who fly here!✈️🌍

@RataCall3jera Ай бұрын

3 Minutes Of Aviation is underrated 😅

@LisbonAirportSpotting Ай бұрын

First Officer: impossible to land, go around! Captain: HOLD MY BEER... ⚡🔥

@athgt6630 Ай бұрын

I am sure the TAP pilot received a very interesting call from the chief pilot.

@johnandrews3568 Ай бұрын

That WAS their chief pilot. 😬

@athgt6630 Ай бұрын

@@johnandrews3568 then let me rephrase, the ex chief pilot got a call from the newly appointed chief pilot lmao

@Lesloi6227 Ай бұрын

Call will be from the chief engineer

@yahnsolo Ай бұрын

I think some cursing went off from Maintenance too... 🥸

@MoutinhoNuno Ай бұрын

Just look up - FUNCHAL AIRPORT - it‘s pretty standard behaviour.

@FreibertX Ай бұрын

Had the great opportunity to see the TAP A321 at FNC live - craziest landing I ever saw .. should definitely have to go around //

@LieutenantGarber Ай бұрын

Me too! @MadeiraAirport Spotting Pedro said that's the worst he's ever seen and being at Funchal, he's seen the lot 😮

@UncleKennysPlace Ай бұрын

The P-51 at 2:14 is taking off from Akron Fulton AKA Akron Executive Airport, AKR. The Goodyear Airdock is visible (where airships of various types were born.)

@Zechariah340 Ай бұрын

Thank you for featuring the a340, Surinam Airways is the national carrier of my home country, unfortunately that was the last day she flew with us. Surinam Airways will be operating an a330 from now on, still unsure what variant.

@dwaynebrietzke Ай бұрын

A few pucker inducing landings today but that last pilot showing everyone how its done.

@LanceRomanceF4E Ай бұрын

Flown into the Azores many times on TAP…the best cross wind landing pilots in the industry.

@applejacks971 Ай бұрын

Planes being loaded to heavy and struggle to take off is a rare thing...for Aerosucre its Tuesday

@RodSwansmad Ай бұрын

2:35 This is impressive ✈️ 👍

@Twobarpsi Ай бұрын

AeroSucre FO: Captain, how low should we clear the fence? Captain: *Yes*

@Sheli1984 Ай бұрын

2:00 Ryanair: You can join! Southwest: WHAT HAVE YOU DONE!?

@Capt_OscarMike Ай бұрын

1:17 seconds was literally one gust headwind and that jet is doing cart-wheels through the field...You can tell the Pilot in command was in panic mode rotating @ last possible nano-second clearing the structure by no more than 50 ft or so...Notice when the frame turns to follow the jet....is that debris or a dog that is hurled through the air adjacent to the tree and structure... THAT WAS VERY VERY VERY CLOSE...

@mehere8299 Ай бұрын

That Suriname Airlines landing was a thing of beauty.

@alli3219 23 күн бұрын

I love the A340... 😊😊😊😊

@williamsquires3070 Ай бұрын

That P-51 sure was a beautiful bird! 💙

@ianmoone6562 Ай бұрын

Both our Portuguese archipelagos in the same 3 min video lol

@Pspresso Ай бұрын

It’s incredible that Aerosucre has seven planes in their fleet yet they’re one of the most popular airline in this channel.

@LS-vz5fi Ай бұрын

Who needs nose gears anyway!?

@TexJester-no8th Ай бұрын

Right ... we had tail draggers for many years before they tried a tricycle setup..

@JazzbLu Ай бұрын

There are a lot of impressive landings in this!

@BuckJackson-kc8pb Ай бұрын

The first crosswind landing was incredible and the last one as well. Impressive pilot skills.

@afoolandhismoneychannel Ай бұрын

Aerosucre: The gift that keeps on giving!

@daveskimmer Ай бұрын

As always a great video, thanks.

@turbofanlover Ай бұрын

Ah, Aerosucre...you never disappoint...lol.

@F14foreverF14 Ай бұрын

1:07 AeroSucre in the house!!! I love 😍 those guys!

@57thorns Ай бұрын

1:29 looked ok. Small plane, heavy crosswind, steady crabbing before touchdown and a clean(ish) touchdown.

@wendyjaa Ай бұрын

NEVER put yourself in the path of an Aerosucre plane 😂

@williamstearns7490 Ай бұрын

Aerosucre cargo loaders have the same philosophy as the truckers there: “the driver/pilot has weight concerns? Look, there’s still room. Keep loading until there isn’t.” 🙄

@TexJester-no8th Ай бұрын

Like the old joke, "I can't be broke, I still have checks left!"

@williamstearns7490 Ай бұрын

@@TexJester-no8th 😂

@MrSunrise- Ай бұрын

How do you know when a DHC-2 Beaver is overloaded? The doors won't close.

@williamstearns7490 Ай бұрын

@@MrSunrise- ha ha! As an exploration geologist, who’s often flown with in these with the last box of supplies placed on my lap, I’ve experienced this phenomenon first hand. And, with my eyes shut tight and a muttered string of profanity on my lips, I would will them to aloft before we hit the trees along the shore.

@BariumCobaltNitrog3n Ай бұрын

He's been showing the same Aerosucre clip for the last three years, along with the one where the gear rotates at rotate. Not complaining, I eat the same breakfast every day. And the title must contain Pilot... _refuses, forgets, or almost_

@daveslow84 Ай бұрын

Aerosucre is my most favourite thing in the aviation world :D the gift that keeps on giving!

@bobsondugnutt2762 Ай бұрын

Attitude Indicator all brown: bad Attitude Indicator all brown when your radar altimeter is under 100 feet: worse

@videovideo5124 Ай бұрын

Everyone's trousers all brown - very much worse!!

@Boss_Tanaka Ай бұрын

I wouldn’t stand even 500 meters from the runway end on the centerline axis to record an Aerosucre takeoff

@mjoao4635 Ай бұрын

This Portuguese pilot have balls of steel 😮😮 , and of course lots of experience, for sure💪,,,a fact: this plane was flying with no passengers

@Presidentofthepresident Ай бұрын

Massive respect to the legends putting their life on the line to fly for Aerosucre and give us these awesome clips ✊

@GhostHostMemories Ай бұрын

I saw the first clip on Reddit and i thought it was from a Flight Sim

@ncarnaiz Ай бұрын

Seriously speaking, what's inside the minds of the Aerosucre pilots?! Is that a common practice or they take off at the end of the runway knowing the will be on KZfaq a few days later? 😂

@user-nk4td9bg6w Ай бұрын

no penalties for close calls there. the plane/crew have no passengers to worry about and are flying entirely to and from corrupt destinations haha and it's a 727 flown by cowboys who still know what they are doing and trust that old flying tank! you won't catch aerosucre in any country that enforces international standards. they are probably banned already. In the places aerosucre flies, they are still providing a valuable service. The word "law suit" is laughed at or unheard of as well in thesr places xD So even if they do create a smoking crater somewhere and cause collateral damage to civilians or infrastructure, nobody will care and life goes on

@ncarnaiz Ай бұрын

@@user-nk4td9bg6w I guess you are right. That airlene is a joke, but they provide a service.

@TCBElvisAPresley Ай бұрын

_Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing_ ...And, dang, you gotta get really low to land!

@searchanddiscover Ай бұрын

Good ole reliable aerosucre never fails to provide content for KZfaq

@markcardwell Ай бұрын

TAP lucky to be alive

@mellewisselo8025 Ай бұрын

Sadly that Surinam a340 landing was also the very last one. They are retiring their a340 :(

@bramwierenga5931 Ай бұрын

26th of march it flew back, sure it was the last?

@mellewisselo8025 Ай бұрын

@@bramwierenga5931I saw the stream and everyone said it was her last landing into AMS. Not sure though

@martyschrader Ай бұрын

That A340 at 2:47 nearly tore the undercarriage off.That plane is going to need some real servicing after that "landing."

@LezDentz 24 күн бұрын

That P-51 take off reminded me of the time we took a flight with my brother's flying instructor in a little Piper. He asked whether we wanted a regular take-off, or a Sports take-off. We opted for the Sports take-off.

@denizyolgorur9938 Ай бұрын

Tap plane pilot wanted to arrive, not land lol

@tonikimabrahams7121 Ай бұрын

BTW i love your vids

@wannabetrucker7475 Ай бұрын

enjoyed the first clip, that was some fine aviation 😊

@CoverBrazilian Ай бұрын

That southwest landing was in Tampa, Florida. I’ve lived in Tampa my whole life, and consequently, have had to fly into Tampa after every trip. I haven’t experience a single smooth landing in Tampa. It’s always extremely windy, humid, and there’s almost always a storm.

@BensonNyasae Ай бұрын

Did he land with his nose gear first?

@pksmith1275 Ай бұрын

Looks like it to me.

@AnimalisMD Ай бұрын

So.. is a nose first landing called a "reverse flare"?🤔😳

@JohnSmithShields Ай бұрын

Woooooooooooooooooooo

@thezood Ай бұрын

Perhaps they wanted to be different and special

@KenMaerran Ай бұрын

Always a good day when you get to see another Aerosucre flight somehow manage to beat the odds...

@mpaulm Ай бұрын

That Mustang roar is amazing!

@checkerrs Ай бұрын

The last one is incredible!

@WatelaGanda 18 күн бұрын

you're a true gem in the content creation community!

@light_kiid Ай бұрын

lol thumbnail and title matching so good 😂😂

@darrininverarity4297 23 күн бұрын

That first pilot was very confident with the controls,they never let the wind push the plane around without them pushing right back,well done.

@Delano1226 Ай бұрын

Aerosucre, the gift that keeps on giving

@Youtub77W 27 күн бұрын

A321 cockpit: First Officer: "go around?" Captain: "we don’t do that here"

@eaglex5723 Ай бұрын

The SATA landing at 1:25 is quite good in my eyes.

@GG_Booboo Ай бұрын

That first pilot is me on MSFS! See you can survive that!😂😂😂

@miked3723 6 күн бұрын

New around here. In those "crab landing" instances are the tires of the landing gear also not straight on or do they have a way to be aligned?

@prestonburton8504 Ай бұрын

i was in a premier 2 departing Monterrey mexico during heavy cross wind but below - and the plane hydroplaned to the left and it was just like ice on the water -just as we were hitting grass pulled up and didn't fishtail - always remember this one moment (no grooving in runways there)