Some think light isn’t important but Light does Matter

"All matter is a condensation of light into patterns moving back and forth at average speeds which are less than the speed of light. You could say that when we come to light we are coming to the fundamental activity in which existence has its ground, or at least coming close to it.’ -Bohm

I think the most important point being made in this discussion, inadvertently by the way, is the necessity of having precise language. And I think that observation would bear out the fact that the language needs to be much more precise then exists in conversation, which is why, ultimately, we lean on mathematics. "Unfortunately, nobody can be told what the matrix is; - They have to see it for themselves. " - Morpheous

This was fantastic! I love the breakdown of Matter as Mother and the symbolic analysis of our current world. Beautifully poetic and enlightening on many levels.

Very Particular. What a conversation for the Age. Appropriate and Timely. Brilliant.🎉

I am composed of frozen light, what a beautiful thought!

Splendid conversation. I was relaxing, having a cup of tea and listening when it made me laugh (not hysterically) to think you are embarking on eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge.

Absolutely intriguing content. I have never heard it called in such a manner. Frozen light! It is beautiful in its simplicity.

I absolutely love this conversation. Beautiful. Both of you, your ideas, and how you present them so gracefully.

I think the term " frozen light " is misleading. A more appropriate term would be " bound energy ".

read the article, "Light is Heavy" by Nobel physicist Gerard 't Hooft and Martin van der Mark - matter is indeed light!! Great David Bohm quote. I've been corresponded with Bohm's collaborator Basil J. Hiley. Professor Hiley emphasizes noncommutativity as the secret of reality. I recommend you study noncommutativity. thanks

Rupert and Mark are amongst the best scientific educators and popularisers of our time. Well done gentlemen and keep up the great work

Great interview - thanks. Rupert, firstly thank you for your pragmatic presentation, it is great to hear you touching on deeper issues beyond just the 'mechanics' of matter and mass. If I may paraphrase; around 3:50 in this video you intimated... "Mass of matter has two aspects: Inertial mass that binds it to a state of motion and a place, The Broglie equation tells us that the frequency of a masses vibration is proportional to the mass involved, the faster it vibrates i.e. the more mass it has then the more it is tied to its place. And the gravitational effect relating to mass where all matter is interconnected throughout the universe, so a particle of matter has to know where it is and how much of it there is so that it can react to the other masses appropriately. Its much much more mysterious than just little billiard balls trundling around" "...it has to know where it is..." Indeed. That is a fundamental issue with our current view of the 'subatomic' world. Researchers tell us that various particles behave in certain defined ways; electrons repel each other, but are attracted to protons etc etc. My base-line query is: how does an electron 'know' that it has to act that way? As an occasional builder of small robots, I can quickly appreciate the systems needed by the electron and all other particles. These include: a) a sense of 'self' and knowledge of the properties of itself. (I'm an electron and I have a negative charge and a mass of so many ev, a spin to the left and I fear I may have left a heater on in my bedroom!). b) a navigation system which tells it where it is, and its current position and velocity in relation to the universe. c) a sensor suite which is able to detect the position, velocity and identity of every other particle in the total actual universe - not just our 'observable universe' (all quite straightforward stuff, provided one has enough RAM). Indeed, since the influences on our electron can legitimately extend beyond any arbitrary boundaries of 'our' universe, the sensors need to detect 'everything there is', just 'everything', not just 'our universe'. d) a look up table which defines the properties of those particles near and far and provides instructions on how our electron must respond to the influences of those particles (another electron close by: move away at a certain acceleration and direction. A massive galaxy 50 megaparsecs away - say the local Great Attractor - then swing on by, etc). e) a calculating engine which can combine all the influences of every particle in the actual universe upon our electron to provide a singular direction and speed instruction, and to provide control outputs at a rate that is appropriate to the electrons' situation. A sub-Plank-Time control loop frequency would seem to be necessary to sustain an orbit around a nucleus with reasonable fidelity, and to avoid unfortunate collisions with other nearby particles. f) a means of propulsion which enables the electron to move in the required directions and velocities. g) an energy source to sustain the 'self'; to power the sensor suite and motion system; and to run the on-board compute required to operate the entire electron unit, in perpetuity, of course. I am perturbed when I hear researchers say that a particular particle or even a tangible mass like Newton's apple behaves in a certain way; my reflex question is always: how does it know that it should do that, and how does it do it? An electron-robot is a very complex and wonderful thing, with almost every necessary attribute as yet undiscovered. Thanks again. We would appreciate you comments!!

If matter is frozen light, then a black hole is frozen time. Jolly good show.

It sounds so beautiful, matter is frozen light, Goethe said music was frozen architecture if I remember it right. Rupert and Mark, you are obviously masters of the mind in many ways, but I cannot help wishing that I could see what the end of this century is going to look like.

Excellent lively discussion. Thank you.

This is the best interview I've ever heard

Finally... Good job fellas😊

Wow, I did not except this convo to ebb and flow like this. Perfect for a long late night drive home on my own!

Profoundly insightful and meaningful perspective on the dynamics of reality. 🙏🏼

The magic of KZfaq is that even a pair of old crackpoters can spread out in the internet.

love this conversation! you’re expanding my mind 💚

The arguments are convincing. Thank you. ❤

This reminds me of the theory of “microvita” developed by P.R. Sarkar, the Renaissance spiritual teacher. Microvita are subtle matter that is smaller and more fundamental than quantum or string theory describes. There are lots of KZfaq videos about microvita.

Enlightening. Thank you.

Brilliant, per usual! I especially ppreciated the allusion to the work of DBHart. Thought this point might have been beneficially expanded a bit to include Mark's review of Aristotle's 4 causes. I take the thrust of DBH's philosophy of science and mind to be that the conflation of formal and final causality into material causality accounts for the mechanized worldview in which we are now philosophically imprisoned. I wonder if Rupert's quest for morphic fields is not at bottom a bid to resurrect final causality?

Lovely. That is the first time I've heard anyone espouse the idea that direction is somehow fundamentally embedded in matter. I had the notion that direction might be embedded in the spacetime field or whatever it is that planets and stars float about in, but I prefer Rupert's approach.

Love Rupert Sheldrake. And I stumbled over my expectation to hear the words: Walter Russel.

I appreciate that you keep the name labels up on the screen. It’s not as big a deal here, with two talking heads, but I’ve seen some documentaries where they introduce each of about 30 speakers, once, and then flip between them with no further introduction. I’m autistic enough that differentiating between multiple mild-looking middle aged guys in suits can be a real challenge.

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

I feel encouraged.

Wow what a deep dive into the basic building blocks of all we are and everything everywhere in our Universe! 😀

Amazing talk. Just sent to a friend!

LOL!- that You are in a serious manner making such an utterly funny analogy is just fascinating! It’s entertaining - but the only meaning it conveys is the fact that *any* content can and will resonate with somebody out there in the many corners of the digital space.

love the metaphor 'matter is frozen light ' Connective/fascial tissue has similar properties. resulting in restriction/viscosity of blood flow into nooks and cranny's. manual therapy like Osteopathy releases this 'frozenlight'

This is fascinating. Like a magic carpet ride!

This was really illuminating. I feel heavier!

Aye, that was smashing!😉🤯😎much love Gary from glasgow

Rupert is insightful and truly educated

I kinda feel like we took a wrong turn at the atom vs Leibniz's monad fork in the road, though we have learned a great deal traveling the atomic road. I feel like once we realized atoms were divisible then we should have gone back to the infinitely divisible monad (which, by the way, you brought up the soul atoms 😊 and philosophically the monad fits quite well that particle). What are your thoughts, on monads? I mean Leibniz was a pretty smart guy. We still use his calculus notations. I am referring to Leibniz's monad for this question, though i believe Plato's formulation is one in the same just more primitive.

Excellent, loved it

I recall the idea of “crystallization” in understanding the images served on a “high definition” television screen for mass consumption. So this idea of “froze light” has connotations of hard or immobile: inanimate; yet it has somehow captured something of the animate spirit: light. I am reminded of Barfield’s essay The Harp & The Camera where he suggests the evolution from the premodern to modern modes of perception by metaphor. I am also reminded of George MacDonalds essays on the imagination in which he talks about the light within all incarnate nature & the Father of Lights.

"Are our everyday assumptions wrong? Should we be experiencing the universe differently?" Great questions! Yes!!!

This title grabbed my attention. Because of course it is.

Frozen light or hardened high energy light has always been a very sublime way to describe matter

"Matter is frozen light," the absolute truth.

Standing next to a large group starting to meditate I felt a wave of stillness pass through me....the person next to me indicated he felt it too...as if energy fields were interacting.

Hi, Mark & Rupert ~ Regarding Rupert's insight about matter = mother - I would add the word 'meat' as in the 'flesh' (which is also etymologically related or derived from the same Old English 'mete' Frisian, Old English, Germanic root words) symbolically referring to the infant's first nourishment in breast milk, etc.) and Rupert's phrase "the unconscious cult of the mother goddess" - it occurred to me as an Enneagram enthusiast teacher and student, the fall of Adam from Enneagram Type 1 (eyes open and alert to one's nakedness) then falling down to Type 4 who 'fastens' together an apron from the matter of 'fig leaves' at the motherly Type 2 (the maternal/nurturing Enneagram type) who is known for giving and self-sacrifice of herself to the needs of others; and so the naked and fallen Adam and Eve feeling uncovered, bare, are ashamed, anxious, and afraid, reach out to Type 2 to 'fasten together' (from which the word 'fashion' is derived) a "covering" for themselves i.e., a false persona in which to hide from God and identify with, blend in among and merge with the other trees so to identify as one with them, to have a new false identity and covering, i.e., persona. I shared my insight with a well-known Enneagram author and teacher, and he was quite taken with this idea, of this pattern 'encoded' in the sequence of the biblical fall of man metaphorically and asked where I got it. I answered that I observed it in the bible passage itself and arrived at it by applying the Enneagram to it.

A light conversation that matters.

A great idea, but he's making it up. Pure Art.

Which is to say standing waves in quantum foam or whatever multidimensional medium in which transitory waves are observed as photons.

Im no scientist but i can figure this about quantity; the more tightly we define the movement and action of something, the less potential that expression carries. Quantity seems an ingredient of thought, a weight our mind puts on the detail. What quantity is being quantified, if not uncertainty? Quality is a different thing altogether, we can discover and learn the nature of influences and significances playing important roles in our day to day. Matter is an idea that made motion easier to interpret. Materialism is now the obstacle of progress. We are energy reflecting on light and darkness. What any scientists miss peering into stuff, and how the intelligent world is misled is seeing information come from things. Information is created in connections, where observation meets features of consideration.

Quantity, just like time is a human construct. Very important, obviously. We have names for sub atomic particles and a complex set of particles and anti particles but this 'field' in which particles spin and waves oscillate is spoken of as a matter of fact, so it must be where matter is but not necessarily where it is not. We are told that random fluctuations can be detected in a vacuum demonstrating that quanta can spontaneous appear and disappear in a void and of course photons can pass through it.

Nice video, please have a go at the videos posted by the late Vernon Brown concerning the subject of photon theory. He discovered a relationship between the circumference of an electron and the wavelength of a type of photon that has the same energy value. I remember him saying that a photon may become phase locked into its own field to create a subatomic particle. Also, that these particles are affected by the electromagnetic fields emitted by other particles, changing their trajectory through space/time, due to the photons they are made of, reaching max amplitude at an offset toward increasing field strength. I'm no scientist, but Vernon was my dad, and he offered a glimpse into the reality of photon theory, very similar to what you present here.

exactly! - its light moving at C - but in a stacked spinning loop. its moving just as fast as it always does - but its linear velocity converted into angular velocity, it wraps around itself and creates the appearance of a large particle. an electron is a photon running laps around itsef. all particles are composed of photons of stacked spins. Photons dont have mass because they *are* mass.

Consciousness and light are everything and are everywhere in everything.

Great pod

Thank you for stretching my mind!

I am no physicist so forgive my intellectual wantedness for the simplicity of this question. What is light made of? I have heard it sometimes behaves as a particle and sometimes a wave. I do not fully understand what a wave means in this context (for example: what exactly is making the motion of a wave when applied to the behavioral attributes of light). I have also wondered if we have ever viewed a photon, every video and photo I see is CGI so I have always been curious to know if we have an actual view of the structure of this quantum realm and the properties that make it up.

Thank you for explanation. Electron receive more energy and become photon. Many people say photon is quanta. But they don't talk about the procedure of electron change to photon with proton.

I’ve come to view each moment in time as a potential observation that could cause wave function collapse in quantum mechanics. I see humans, through their continuous perception of time and reality, as the observers in this process. I liken humans to complex apparatuses that interpret signals from the environment, and I consider this interpretation as a form of observation in the quantum mechanical sense. I’ve also started to view consciousness as this signal interpretation process, drawing parallels between human consciousness and the operation of a scientific apparatus.

Due to the radiative properties of matter, id say it would be more prudent to say light is "liberated matter" rather than matter being frozen light.

I had the thought that matter is just condensed light. Like the condensation on the bathroom mirror after a hot shower. The speed of light is the "dew point" of the universe and just like the dew point of the atmosphere, if you pass the saturation point, you get water condensation.

Spot on

Well worth the watch ❤

This is fascinating

4:30 afaik gravity spreads out (deforms spacetime) like a ripple effect going the speed of light. So the mass can be at a different place and the other mass still gets the effect of the mass at the old position. An example is that if the sun would disappear suddenly, earth would still Orbit it for the 8 minutes it takes the effect of gravity to travel. Only then the earth would travel in a streight line.

One could say that as light is one manifestation of energy. Energy converts to matter (stored energy) and when heating up, matter returns to radiant energy again

The point about matter as frozen light is that all matter is composed of electromagnetic forces, and the smallest “property” of that energy is nothing more complicated than what can be imagined as a vortex of a spinning “something.” That “something is akin to a singularity, a dimensionless point. That description fits what we think we know about photons. A photon, of course, is not “particle.” It is a point from which energy radiates. In the Unified Physics theory of Nassim Haramein, it is better known as a Planck Spherical Unit (PSU), which, in and of itself fits the description of a singularity (aka, a black hole). A single proton (not photon) is made up of billions of PSUs, or, if a PSU is also a photon, a proton is made of billions of photons - ergo, “frozen light.”

Thank you, I've never heard it explained this way before and feel as if something clicked in me. Not sure what yet but this layman is trying 🙂 I also wondered why I never heard anyone else reference the ancient alchemical elements w/our 4states of matter. Have either of you considered going on the Theories of Everything podcast?

Intention shapes the flow of matter.

That is enlightening

Yeah Plotinus argued this as well and it seems to be true. Gamma Rays act like a sort of quasi matter getting hit with a hypothetical gamma ray would be like getting speared.

When EM fields or light comes to a rest or is measured it converts into an elementary particle. When the EM field of two distant sources collide in the vacuum of space they convert into a pair of charged particles, one positive and the other negative. This was proposed in the Pair Production theory back in the 60's. Energy can't be destroyed, so when it comes to a rest instead of winking out of existence it converts into elementary particles, m=E/c². In particle accelerators physicists discovered 1.22 MeV of kinetic energy is produced when a pair of protons collide. Then the opposite is true. When the EM field's energy equivalence of 1.22 MeV comes to a rest in the vacuum of space it would produce a pair of hot, charged particles. I suspect that elementary particles are indeed bundles of light.

Red Dwarf had a character who was a hard light hologram called Rimmer. He could interact with matter, smell, feel pain etc, 30 years ago.

Thx Teacherz - btw Couzinz - " the steam gages & governers" of the Victoria Era ushered in the dawn Cybernetic revolution What iz your FitWatch telling you to next & how is your heart rate !🇨🇦

Brilliant!

Thought is matter. Even light needs a thought to exist.

You know you're listening to a very smart person, when he says "there's so much we still don't know".

fascinating conversation. difficult to grasp the bridge between vibratory states and our perception, perceived thru assemblages of smaller units of vibratory states, of what we cooperatively call reality.

Matter is crisalised consciousness (where cristalise is a metaphor and matter and consciousness are words with the limitaions of language)

While I love Bohm and deBroglie both, the analogy that matter is "frozen light" is a poor one that falls apart rather quickly, even though we don't know nearly as much about the universe as we think we do

My question would be what caused the "light", or energy to be "frozen" or bond into the forms around us? Is there an underlying organized system controlling this process? Sometimes symbolized by Mathematics?

If I understand morphic resonance correctly, the slightly forelorn dwarfish man now appearing on my screen would be best understood as being the ancestor ...who called forth into form and for a time into the foreground of ideas, the younger, less crusty, Dr. R. Sheldrake (co-present on this medium) who argued for years to be the receptor of a special form of inheritance (therefore a natural conservative). Given this, the entity now co-present with us was always a boho, north of Euston, muffled and frothy capuchino voiced sort of Kermit who has over the years given up hiding some of his more mystical traits.

Think of spacetime fabric as a kind of particle field full of blanks, like stem cells would be on the body. Only when these 'blank' particles receive frequency or are stimulated in some way does matter appear. It could also explain why we cant detect dark matter yet can detect its mass and gravitational effects. When i saw 'frozen light' i thought straight away of the Bose Einstein Condensate in which we can literally stop, slow or freeze light in its tracks withough losing information.

🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 00:27 *🌌 Matter, historically, is viewed in different ways, now seen as vibratory processes in quantum theory.* 02:05 *🌀 Light energy can be trapped in matter, leading to the idea of matter being localized in place.* 03:26 *⚖️ Mass has two aspects: inertial mass (binding matter to a place or state of motion) and gravitational mass.* 05:10 *🔬 The Higgs boson particle is believed to link massive objects to an underlying field, explaining inertial mass.* 08:36 *💧 Matter exists in various states beyond solid, including liquid, gas, and plasma, each with different properties.* 10:27 *⚛️ Energy and fields are seen as underlying principles in physical reality, shaping matter in different forms.* 17:23 *🧱 Matter and form are interconnected in various levels, with form giving structure to the underlying matter.* 21:58 *🔢 Quantities have a historical and cultural context, with different ways of perceiving numbers and measurements.* 27:15 *❤️ Attraction and repulsion are fundamental in matter due to the interaction of protons and electrons, reflecting basic emotional patterns.* 29:26 *🔮 Materialism can be viewed as an unconscious cult of the "great mother," representing a rebellion against earlier mechanistic views.* 30:36 *🌌 Gravitational attraction can be seen as a final cause within matter, drawing everything together, reflecting a purposeful aspect of the universe.* 33:43 *🔭 Physics introduces the concept of dark matter, highlighting the mysterious and unknown aspects within the universe.* 37:32 *🤔 Matter remains more mysterious than we perceive, with ongoing changes in cosmology, panpsychism, and the understanding of the Big Bang origin story.* Made with HARPA AI

Time is a relation based on observable changes in structures. Structures are made of things that have quantifiable parameters. The fundamental physics of the photon and the electron affect. Is a structure.

I understand that conservation of energy is associated with the time-reversibility of the basic laws of physics, which seems essentially to express 'nothing happens' (c.f. Peter Atkins of Oxford). But it bothers me that energy seems to be a continuous quantity, and I don't see how a continuous quantity can be conserved in general. This gets even more awkward when one considers the tiny increments of, or transfers between potential and kinetic, energy conferred to a material object in a gravitational field. A related question is how fields can be continuous - as I understand it both material fields and wave functions are represented as f(x,t). Another question, albeit rhetorical, is why excitations in a field, e.g. electrons in the electron field, do not disperse and remain discrete.

"Uniformitarianism?" 🤣 There's all those missing stars that inexplicably just vanished... Someone is signalling to intelligent life on earth. Like that song by One Republic, "When the Love Runs Out": "say your prayers at night..." Even large celestial objects might suddenly simply disappear. Accept the unpredictability of everything precious to you, and take nothing for granted. Thank you for the scintillating conversation. I shall return for more.

I discovered that invisibility is the inverse form of a holodeck; a virtual reality at its most basic. You turn an invisible object outside-in you'll have a holodeck, but if you try to turn a holodeck inside-out you'll only have an invisible object only in the setting that the holodeck depicts. This asymmetry seems to require an infinite multiverse solution of choices for a holodeck to become an invisible object as easy as an invisible object can become a holodeck. Holodecks are a by-product of sending light thru an object to make it invisible in the first place. Now, to make good use of this inverse relationship you can create what I call Photographic and Televisual Portals. Invisible outer shell with a holodeck inside; a portal! The inverse relationship can be exploited even further in telepresence. This would be a further duality between the background environment of the holodeck and any telepresent volumetric virtual form of an apparent solid visual object. Three qualities of a portal: 1. an external cloak, 2. an interior backdrop holodeck scenery and 3. a volumetric holographic display of objects within the holodeck. Telepresence between portals would rely on a chain of mirror-worlds between the material and the virtual, oscillating between the two in a dual-televisual correspondence between the two Televisual Telepresent Portals. I'm curious if there's a matter counterpart inverse relationship between fields and energy. Is there an Inmaterial/Material inverse relationship to compliment an InvisibilityHolodeck inverse relationship that has its own circular mirror-world recursion, oscillating between materials and immaterial? I'm curious to know how the Higgs field gives energy its own circular, emergent properties of solidity. With both the visible and physical counterparts, that would come together in a simple symmetry, that would be the Holy Grail of not just photographic and televisual portals. It will be what true Cosmic Portals consists of; a cloak immaterial to outside touch with an interior holodeck that gives light a physical form from its virtual place. A complete portal would be fully invisible/holographic and immaterial/material. Visual and haptic senses complete.

People have had a long history of trouble accepting numbers as quantity, rather than numerology, but advancement has come out clearly on the side of quantity. Numerology leads only to mysticism, confusion, and darkness.

Everyone keeps asking what is matter but nobody asks about how is matter?

with disturbances between energies (which spread in forward spirals), vortices arise, which make these energies appear as matter, and in energy fields such as the Higgs, a torque is exerted on these vortices, this torque creates an apparent mass, a quantitative gravity,

Our "everyday assumptions" are hardly so far from the notion of matter as energy. After all, we all know that you turn a block of wood into a highly energetic ball of flame.

I keep telling people that light and quantum are the direction of "outward" from our 4-space, but I don't know if they understand or listen.

"A proton is light frozen in a proton field, an electron is light frozen in an electron field", you say." Matter is light frozen in a Higgs field". Hence if I understand it correctly, x is light frozen in an x-field, with x being a neutrino, an electron, a quark, a photon, an atom, a molecule, a crystal, ,an apple, a book, a mountain, a planet, a galaxy, a universe, anything and everything. The strength of this dazzling explanation is its circularity, tautology making it infallible, congratulations. Are then these almost infinitely many different fields components of an overarching "Higgs field" of anything and everything? I wonder what the Greek philosophers would say. .Precious is however the insight that matter is frozen light in many different ways .

As you're positing the notion of 'matter' as 'frozen light', I can't help but ask the obvious question: At what temperature does light 'freeze'? I.e. what is the 'freezing point' of light?

Does the localization have a connection with the speed of the light trapped in the forms of matter? Is the speed of light slowed down into the forms? Did Einstein say something related to this--like matter being forms of slowed down energy or light?

Mystics have always said everything is energy resonating at differing frequencies.

Matter is condensed, structured, positively and negatively charged particles doing a balanced dance.