“When the rich steal from the poor it’s called business, when the poor resist it’s called violence”. Mark Twain

We need to stop dancing around the fact that capitalism is economic authoritarianism

The pervading and rampant culture of individualism. Absolutely nailed it. The cause of so much despair, division, hopelessness and suffering in western societies.

I was 19 when Thatcher came to power and I can confirm everything stated here. It was all a calculated con. The problem was, organised Labour had made itself an easy target for divide-and-conquer politics. Unions appeared to be driven by selfish acquisition for their membership and the aggrandisement of their leaders. The general public did not take much persuading with a few cheap bribes like utility privatisations and social housing sell-offs. What we have come to now is an obscene caricature of a political “system”, dominated by lies, corruption and greed. First, we need to cut out the diseased tissue at the next election and then get to work improving what is remaining. There is hope, but it will be a very long haul.

My God, I was talking about the insidious transition from the language of "citizen" to the language of "consumer" 30 years ago. It was truly heartening to hear her explicitly make this important (yet seemingly minor) point. Thanks for this.

I just have to say, Politics Joe is such a WONDERFUL interviewer. Listens well, allows her to speak, engaging responses, knowledgeable, he did his homework and this is a wonderful conversation

This was extraordinarily good. The way this flowed was really impressive. Talking for nearly an hour, barely pausing and with no repetition and being completely engaging throughout too.

"'Rugged individualism' has meant all the 'individualism' for the masters, while the people are regimented into a slave caste to serve a handful of self-seeking 'supermen.' America is perhaps the best representative of this kind of individualism, in whose name political tyranny and social oppression are defended and held up as virtues; while every aspiration and attempt of man to gain freedom and social opportunity to live is denounced as 'un-American' and evil in the name of that same individuality." ~ Emma Goldman

I feel I've been banging this drum for 20 years. Blakeley puts it all so succinctly - really important to do the history lesson first as well, as so many think what we have now is just the "default setting". Just pre-ordered the book. If it's anywhere near as good as the interview, it'll be 15 quid well spent.

The guy who ran the Lucas Plan and went to work for the GLC was Prof Michael Cooley. A truly remarkable man and an original thinker. Born in Ireland in 1935, he passed away in 2020. President Michael D Higgins termed him a delinquent genius. He was the founding editor of AI & Society and is regarded as one of the fathers of CAD. He was nominated for a Nobel Prize and received the 'alternative' Nobel prize in the early 1980s. A school friend of famed Irish Playwright Tom Murphy, he started his career as a trainee machine master in Tuam Sugar Factory.

She is well spoken and highly intelligent. An absolute treasure to listen to. Thank you for sharing this.

You can see the ragged edge of dying capitalism here in the US with private equity buying up trailer parks all over the country. These are assets that 20 years ago would have been laughed at by institutional investors but now they are being sought out, finding ones where older owners are eager to sell, doing minimal improvements, then jacking up the lot rents. The tenants own their homes but not the land they sit on so if they can't afford the new fees they can't stay, although they are "free" to have their homes moved (they are "mobile" after all). Once the older tenants have been flushed out, they can then move in a wealthier tenant (generally younger folks who have been priced out of a regular home) and then rake in the profits.

It blows my mind people can't understand the collusion that goes on between big buisness and government.. And that you can't pull down one without pulling down the other.. Keep handing out the message! Appreciate it guys!

Grace articulated here what so many of us understand but can't necessarily express, better than almost every other current commentator. Thanks to both. A double-act with Nick Abbot is urgently needed.

The culture war isn't Left vs Right it's Top vs Bottom.

Am I the only one that had to change the playback speed to .75 in order to follow and understand. It was well worth the listen.

techno feudalism is the era we are in

Utterly brilliant, accurate, incisive and reaffirming truth, thanks a million Grace and Oli.

Brace for the people conflating 'social democracy' with 'communism' in the comments. Who will do the counting?

These are the kinds of conversations we need to be having, very important and very insightful.

This woman is sound as fuck, more interviews like this

The fundamental problem is that everybody works within a business to produce a surplus. A small group of people within that entity then decide what to do with that surplus. It's really no surprise that they choose to use that surplus to enrich themselves by voting for larger shareholder dividends and increased pay for board members while hundreds or thousands of other members of the organisation get almost nothing or literally nothing despite being the largest group that contributed to the surplus that was created. The solution here is to democratise the workplace. Trading shares should be made illegal. When a person joins a company they get a single share which grants them a single vote in all company affairs. When you leave you surrender that share. Then Monday to Thursday everyone works like normal. Friday is voting day where everybody votes on all company decisions. Who to hire, where to move production to, how much to produce, who you want to lead your department, how much to sell things for, who to sell it to and what do the with the surplus. Under this model, how many companies would vote to outsource work to the other side of the world? How many would vote to dump toxic waste into local rivers where the employees live? During a cost of living crisis shouldn't the workers be able to vote to use the surplus to ease their suffering?

I remember laughing out loud in a HMRC meeting in the 80s being told taxpayers are now customers. Ludicrous then and now and I have always known thisxwas when it started to change under Thatcher and Reagan. Both dead but still causing misery from the grave. This young woman is great . I shall read her book. Thanks for another great interview, Joe.

In my view the effort to turn every person in an entrepreneur, every home in a business is far more sinister than just destroying the social structure, since under this system, 99% of wealth sooner or later will be owned by the 1%. We are all working non-stop to make them richer.

I’m confused and dismayed at Grace’s repeated use of the term Anarchy. I realise there is a historical precedent for referí g to some economic systems as Anarchy. But imho it muddies the water between what the political ideology of Anarchism has achieved over hundreds of years. ( ie: bottom up structures - a dissolution of hierarchy ) and it continues the trope in people’s minds that Anarchy is Chaos. It’s really unfortunate but using the term chaotic or something would be much more helpful.

This is the best and most encouraging thing I’ve heard all year. Maybe longer than that. Thank you so much. ❤️💪

Funny how those who advocate for complete state control are saying that there is a critical set of problems with capitalism BECAUSE of COMPLETE state control.

Great interview. Grace Berkeley is spot on.

To be fair, this was a stellar interview. All areas on topics covered and found the commentary very coherent and on point. Great 👍

We need less Sunak’s and Gove’s in government and more like Grace.

Wow....what a smart woman....great to listen to....thanks a lot for this informative interview

Blakeley is amazing! She is so interesting and explains some hard to grasp concepts in a way that is easy to understand. Looking forward to reading her book.

Phenomenal. Ordered the book, can't wait to read. It's refreshing to hear someone talking as Grace does about not just what is wrong with the current system, but crucially what we could do to make better systems and live better lives. That messaging is the only thing that will get people to take notice.

Another great interview with Grace. What she was saying about how'oh, that's not real capitalism/socialism' is that people confuse the ideology which is a utopian model of how things should be that usually ignores crucial aspects of how things actually are, so the implementation of those ideas never resembles the ideology because it's just a set of ideas that most people don't even agree with or accept grudgingly due to their lowly position in the power structure. Additionally, they often create perverse incentives eg I remember an Adam Curtis documentary where Russian taxi drivers would drive around pointlessly just to fulfil their fuel quotas.

‘Stolen’ the first book really hit home with me how the Thatcher years I lived through were the formative years of changing society forever. Living through it. You could feel something really wrong was happening. So looking fwd to getting my hands on Vulture Capitalism ❤✊

It's not capitalism. If it was another system, they would set it up the same way. When you print the money, you shape everything top down. We have a central bank problem, not a system(capitalism) of finance problem.

I was born in early 90s. I have a hard time thinking economists thought they had solved the boom bust cycles before the 2008 financial crisis.

Thank you for calling out the corruption of corporations and the state.

John Kay’s “Obliquity” talks a fair bit about the problems with our current flavour of capitalism.

All authorities enslave mankind. Religion, military, royalty and corporations. Crooks always seek power.

Being a socialist today is like being the only one in a crowd with the "I'm with stupid" t-shirt.

Grace is so lovely, intelligent and empathetic. Just wow. I saw and felt that cultural shift within the 60/70's to the beginnings of this mess that had taken full hold by the 80's. If I'd had a daughter I'd have been proud as hell for her to be like grace👏👏👏

"Toxic individualism". Right.

❤Thank you

it is capitalism, small scale free enterprise that is the key to a free society, not university educated never working theorists

Great Vid Joe, really interesting look at what an alternative future could look like. Grace explains her ideas in such a clear and understandable way. This sort of stuff should be on the BBC.👍

Sounds like she should get together with Gary Stevenson, and organise a movement to tackle the wealth gap.

Everyone should read: 'The Ragged-Trousered Philanthropists' by Robert Noonan (pen name Robert Tressell) and 'The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism' by Naomi Klein and watch the documentary films, 'Sicko' and 'Capitalism: A Love Story', both made by Michael Moore (film maker) Those are a good place to start when looking into the mess we are in atm.

OMG 😲 Someone who can give us a sense of reality. She is so correct in her evaluation and perception of the obstacles that we allow to overwhelm us. How did she get here, with her ability to see clearly 😳 ❤

This is amazing. What a rare treat it is to listen to such a fine scholar, who is able to talk clearly and interestingly about such a crucial topic., She shows that it is not too hard to envisage a rational humane alternative to the pathological society we have had far too long.

Love Grace, she’s bloody excellent. Would be good to see her on Mainstream channels again too as it’s been a while and she’s long overdue. ✊✊✊✊🙏

The complexity of the many crises that beset us so often leads to a sense of being overwhelmed and confused about how to diagnose the problems and where to start with solutions. Grace cuts through all this with a clarity that is so refreshing and - for me, at least - feels like she is describing a fundamental truth. I have a sense that the acceptance of democratisation starts with a sense of personal agency - not an expression of individualism but a sense that you give yourself permission to challenge the orthodoxy of our system and seek the support of others who have similarly freed themselves from the old straitjacket. Ironically, individualism may actually stifle personal agency for those who do not have the means or experience (or even the desire) to play the system. I suspect many have been sucked into Thatcher's so-called democratisation of capital ownership and felt the fear of the responsibility not to lose it all as they try to navigate an alien financial world whose rules are opaque and whose unpredictability is alarming. We just should not be handing the management of essential services to a casino-style market where the odds are rigged in favour of the house (for 'house' read corporations) and nor should such a fundamental safeguard as a roof over our heads be put at risk, whether it is owned or rented, through the fluctuation of property prices and the B of E's anti-social efforts to protect the financiers.

Grace Blakeley is able to describe the sort of future may of us are hoping for but aren't able to describe, how wonderful it is to hear her speak, but Wow - I wish she would talk slower!

Excellent, very engaging interview, loved listening throughout! "There is no such thing as a society, only individuals competing against each other"... Quite sad

Do you think the lack of political action and overall apathy are also a result of the culture of convenience? We're so used to getting all our wants and needs gratified by a click of the mouse (or the dab of the thumb) that the idea of - ugh! - leaving the house and - ugh! - gathering with other people just unconsciously repels us?

That is the finest dissertation of political and economic circumstances I have ever heard. Cogent and intelligent. This girl should be in parliament - if it wasn’t so corrupting. Thank you for that précis of the situation everyone faces. This was a joy to listen to.

Fucking smart conversation that highlights precisely the issues and problems that face any modern democracy.

I wonder where does she factor SMEs and private business into this. I mean entrepreneurship is a lot higher and there are more private companies than public corporations now. And also, the government has failed society when it comes to Boeing, despite their close watch over them, because it doesn’t have the capability to do it effectively. It’s a case against central authority not for it.

My uni is hosting her to talk about her book I’m gassed 😂

That was a fascinating talk. Thank you xxx 😀

Bought the book, loving it. Great show

I often heard that taking nationalized services out of the public sphere and privatizing them was "giving power to the people." It took a long time for me to understand was that Privatization just moves the the means of production out from under the direct responsibility of the government, which allows for more exploitation and extraction of profit.

Try to avoid debt. You have freedom to do most things.

Smoke and mirrors is all the Tories do/have/leave in their wake

Inspiring and brilliant. Tracking the book down. Amazing words, Grace. Well done, Joe. 💌

Good conversation. Thank you.

Remember the FEAR the overseerers told the people of 2000 ? I do and said depending on the programmers that I said women programmers would have written into programs as we were trained Grace Hopper.

DEI hires caused Boeing problems.

Brilliant analysis from Grace, fabulous interview. ❤

Dominance based hierarchy VS consensual cooperation

She is so on point. I just don’t see the unwashed masses coming to the realization they are not part of the franchise, and never will be.

Love Grace! We need more ideas like hers in the mainstream to show everybody there are peaceful alternatives to our current failing system!

I believe we need democracy at work. However the game of monopoly has been played, before you were born. The owner class killed, stole, bribed and cheated, your ancestors. How do we redress the balance? Who do you put in charge to task that redress? Could that person, once in power just become a dictator? Many more issues I'm sure I'm not smart enough to think of.

But what about capital to start these worker/community organisations?

We haven't had capitalism for about half a century.

You Brits do have some great independent left wing media platforms

Thank you for this essential video oh my goodness!!!!!!

I'd be really interested to hear her perspective on the way in which wealthy countries continue, almost avariciously, to leech the physical and intellectual labour capital of poorer/impoversished nations. What does she think when people exercise their fundamental informed democratic right to organise themselves to protest, advocate or vote for issues which are NOT acceptable to those on the Left as is happening/has happened across most of the EU? I wish more people like GB would endeavour to create a generational legacy. Without new generations of vibrant young thinkers, society will simply stagnate.

People do say that about physical health issues. It's only when you get properly ill that you realise that the only way people cope with the fear of being in your position is by believing you did it to yourself. That way they can tell themselves as long as they do everything right they'll never get sick/ lose their job/ become homeless etc

Marxism is a dangerous chalice to drink from. Remember he died stateless, having been driven from multiple countries for insurrectionist action, ignored his family's welfare attributed to 4 of his children dying and he had only 11 attendants to his funeral. He was not well loved. His ideas seem brilliant but every time they are instituted; millions die. Separately, there is a difficulty in socialism and feudalism where the difference in responsibility cannot be easily attributed for. A barber and a plumber are both working class jobs, but the plumber has significantly more responsibility. Socialism sees them given similar lifestyles but the plumber should have a better lifestyle to account for the difficulty of his trade. A closed market system is the only way a capitalist system can work effectively. Opening up labour to an international market (cheap goods in China/Exporting tech jobs to India) undermines the domestic supply of production/supply of technical roles, resulting in a service based economy that is slowly selling off bits of itself to survive.

Great interview and glad to know Grace now I'll certainly check out her book and she speaks the truth on many things especially in what we need to do to get out of this mess

37:33 "...the most threatening thing that we can believe ... is that we don't need to be managed and controlled; that we have the power to govern ourselves..."

she totally conflates government payments with capitalism. how ridiculous.

She's future PM material.

Corruption seems to be the bane of every kind of system, not sure of the answer to it, it seems like a human constant. Sounds negative but I don't intend it to be, it seems like the remainder whenever I try to figure out how any of these systems should work, whether it's some ideal implementation of capitalism, socialism or communism etc.

The definition of the term 'free market ' changed about 145 years ago. Since that time, a free market has been understood as a market free of government regulation. Pior to that moment in history, before roughly 1880, a free market was universally understood as a market which was heavily regulated by government in order to prevent the wealthiest citizens from gaming the system in order to funnel all the wealth of the economy into their own pockets. This prior, original, vision of the free market was first articulated by Adam Smith in the Wealth of Nations. It's not an accident that this book is so misunderstood in the present day. In reality, the Wealth of Nations was a cautionary tale which advocated for deliberate action by government to prevent the wealthiest citizens, those Adam Smith referred to as the Masters of Mankind, from corrupting the market for their own gain. Unfortunately, by 1880 the Robber Barons had succeeded in doing exactly that. They created a Guilded Age in which a tiny number of men had the bulk of the wealth, influence over the running of government, and ownership of the media of the day. They controlled the conversation, and they successfully changed the definition of a free market to suit their own interests. Fun fact

Add to that the promotion of the pursuit of individual desire and feeling, you have a race to the bottom of humanity

Invite Yaron Brook if you really want to talk about capitalism.

Such an excellent interview. Can’t wait to read Grace’s book

I was joking when i would tell people ,the new middle class is living in a van down by the river .Not a joke anymore .The middle are the ones that help the poor .So what happens to the poor ? Thats a scary thought .❤

Step 1. Decouple health insurance from employment.

Brilliant interview and explanation of so many of the problems that we face. Thanks

Looking forward to reading the book. She's saying things I've always intuited, & I've always been looking for answers to this mess, & open to new ideas. Thanks.

What is the innovation in this conversation? If you need to control the work place, who started it all? The idea? The capital to sprout it and the system to grow it? Not touched is the question of someone had to start innovating.

no links to her or her work??????

People have lost belief in organising. But the elite are always organising. Always at it, devising strategies, tactics, the ways & means to control people. Greed, the driving force.

Fascinating. She makes some very eye-opening points.

I think I just fell in love. I've been saying this for decades without the grace. She nails it. Nails why Trump is a thing, nails the exploitation, nails everything.

Hmm - There is a lot to unpick from this. I don't agree with her on many points but equally the system is broken. What I find frustrating is social capitalism is never brought into the equation. When you leave a system to run to its end game - of course, it will end up in its most extreme form both on the left and right. Don't know the solution but I don't think it is what Grace is suggesting.

Great conversation.