As a law student just learning the model rules of ethics, the attorney here is right he literally can’t say anything or he will be breaking attorney client privilege and get disbarred. MR 1.6 only gives three exceptions and he may disclose if its to protect reasonably certain death. But here the people are already dead so harm is not imminent kind of a tuff situation for a moral attorney.

I love that Jack still riding his motorcycle this season until he stopped and started using the subway after he got older.

Episode is based on a case that villified the defense attorney for doing something similar, but in the end he was vindicated and his decision has been held up as the correct course of action.

The guy that played Bruner was a really good actor. The way you hate the guy sitting down really proves that he's a great actor.

Being a defense attorney has to be one of the hardest job. Yet where would we be without them.

"I think the people would overlook your legal indiscretions if you told them what they wanted to know" This is very reminiscent of saying something along the lines of "If a man were not afraid of the truth he would answer" Your constitutional rights, the oaths you have taken (which are backed by law) are all there to protect you. Just because you use them does NOT infer guilt. Yet lately we seem to believe that.

They cut this clip off five seconds too early. As I recall, the guy on trial responds to Jack's last statement with, "Shame on them."

Jack McCoy is actually violating the Rules of Ethics and could be sanctioned / disciplined further. Not only is it a violation to break confidentiality, but it is a violation to attempt to get another attorney to do so.

I have always had a problem with this episode. Jack says "the cannons of ethics requires me to........." in almost every episode. But then, in this case it's "But who's it going to hurt?" But, this is drama not fact based. I just like consistent story lines.

He is actually in a no-win situation. If he acquiesced to McKoy then the parents would be satisfied but his reputation would suffer so that no one else would trust him as someone to confide in if they needed to hire him. Then McKoy would not go out of his way to repair his reputation.

Well the attorney is right. He is following the rules. They want him to literaly break the law and to lose his license for that. Its veeeeery easy to preach about justice and right and wrong when you dont risk losing your job for it.

They really wrote Ledger's Joker five years ahead of the Nolan film. Impressive.

I have to side with the lawyer on this! He is correct when he says that "we all lose". If he did break his oath and told what he knows about the bodies, then that would set a standard by which law would be done. Future cases would point back to this case and say 'see it was done before' or cause a slippery slope for 'lesser' cases. Even if a defendent might be innocent. His motives and reasons are actually noble and correct in up holding the law.

This brings up a lot of interesting real-life questions. I'd like Legal Eagle to do an analysis of this episode.

I really hate to do it, but I kinda agree with the poor attorney. Him disclosing that information could set a very potentially dangerous precedent for future cases. It might unfortunately cause more problems than it brings comfort.

"Attorney client privilege is there for a reason. If I broke that privilege to get my client off because I knew an alibi he had? You would disbar me so fast I would BOUNCE on the pavement. You know what happens if I break that privilege? The people don't say a damned thing. I am disbarred and share a cell at Rikers. And the entirety of client privilege goes out the window. I would love to tell you Mr. McCoy. I would love to not be this man's attorney and to have never seen what I have seen. But those will be MY nightmares to come."

this happened up here. a defense lawyer knew of the existence and location of video tapes that would have shown the girlfriend of a serial killer as a willing partner, and without them she got a light sentence and went free

I really don't like how dismissive the prosecutors are towards public defenders in this show.

McCoy rides a motorcycle?!? This guys gets cooler with every video.

Did McCoy really just say “so who’s it going to hurt?” That’s something one of those parents would say. Not an attorney who took an oath to uphold the same standards the poor defense attorney he had arrested is trying to do. Such horrible writing…

What the *hell*, Jack? I love the way Jack McCoy is written, but here... How the hell was he not disbarred for demanding this defense counsel break the law in open court?

This happened in the Adirondacks around 1975. Robert Garrow murdered four teens. He took his attorneys to the bodies but they refused to release the location of the bodies to police. Their families suffered terribly.

Props to the actor playing the serial killer for portraying a twisted psychopath so well, this guy should be the next Joker!!

1) How did this ever make it to a jury? 2) Would the defense still have an obligation to his client after the client's death? 3) Presumably the bodies "under lock and key" are on someone else's property. Can the defense lawyer skirt confidentiality by asking the owner to check his property, or in some other way cause a third party to discover the bodies?

This was a unique episode. A fight between the realism and the idealism of the law.

Brunner pick them up in a cab I mean there's no worst place you could dump the bodies this episode is so ominous

One of the more fucked up and corrupt things Jack ever did. I'm surprised the judge would even allow this.

The Defense Attorney should of told McCoy in private when no record existed that he knew. Then he would have never been tied to it. The cops would have created a reason to enter the premises of whatever or wherever the building is where the bodies were located. That is how its really done when something as bad as this occurs.

Dude...this is fuqed up...I feel sorry for the defense attorney in this. He had no choice but to defend this refuse...

Oh how I wish you held my cab that line right there it's just gold

Ritchie Coster was absolutely mesmerising in this episode

Are there any other scenes of Jack on his motorcycle?

This case would be thrown out immediately. Not to mention that the ACLU would throw every resource they have at protecting this attorney.

This is one of those rare scenes where people see through the bias of this show and acknowledge how it tries to normalize cops and lawyers breaking the law when it benefits the state. Almost every episode, at least one lawyer and cop openly violates or purposefully misconstrues a law to strongarm a witness or defendant. This show has done untold damage to the public’s view on the relationship between the justice system and citizens.

Gotta say the guy that plays the criminal, He's a talented actor

Jack often abused his power & violated the rules/ethics of his profession. He considered those acts to be honorable as well as just.

This episode is off-the-wall.Attorney-client privilege is pretty rock solid and the lawyer here is technically in the right. It is bizarre that he should be imprisoned for being true to the lawyer's ethics.

Question, if the defense blabbed about the bodies wouldn't the serial killer get to appeal fruit of the poisonous tree as the information was obtained illegally?

It’s clear the defense attorney is afraid of his client, and horrified about the choices he made. I do get his argument, and it has a lot of merit. We need attorney-client privilege. But I feel like this is a unique case. McCoy makes a good point- who is it going to hurt? The serial killer is already dead. Revealing where the bodies are located would allow families some closure and peace. As far as the defense attorney, in these circumstances, I think he should break privilege, provide the information, and then go find another career. The killer is enjoying the situation way too much. He knew what he was doing- he set up his attorney. And now he’s watching all of this play out- he’s now in jail so he can’t kill anyone else- this is the most torture he can inflict. He’s still pulling all the strings and enjoying the show. He believes his attorney won’t violate privilege. The serial killer is still inflicting trauma on all of those around him - it matters not if he is in jail or sentenced to death. He will still find ways to play his games and make other people dance for him. Truly evil. (and great actor!) And it’s worth mentioning he said he doesn’t care what happens to him- and I believe him. They will never get anywhere with him, and he knows it. That just leaves his attorney.

I am not a lawyer but if anyone is, I have a question. Therapists have ethics to confidentiality as well. As a therapist I can not tell anyone what my client said,nor can I confirm nor deny they were my client at all. BUT if my client confesses to a murder or tells me they are planning to kill themselves or others, I have a obligation to warn. I can not contact the potential victim but I have a duty to contact the police. So is there such a thing for lawyers?

Google the Robert Garrow, Sr. case; the episode Bodies was loosely based on this (and in that RL case, the lawyers were CLEARED of all wrongdoing--it occurred in New York state)...

Why is the Judge allowing this line of conversation, lol. Jack is literally arguing in favor of him breaking the law.

This a a fantastic episode! Not only was the actor who played Bruner was top notch, the episode really gets you talking. Who was right? Who was wrong? What was the right thing to do? Does the law prevent you from doing whats right? There are no easy answers from this episode and no one wins. This episode is a great conversation starter, thats for sure.

“Come on, violate the law : who is it gonna hurt?” Is the moral rot at L & O’s core.

The lawyer's greatest mistake would have been asking for a jury trial. The accused has the option of a jury trial, or trial by judge alone. Of course a jury of laypersons would convict him The judge, who understands the significance of maintaining privilege... likely not. But you almost never see a judge alone trial on Law & Order - not dramatic enough for TV I suppose.

I forgotten these older episodes. McCoy was still riding that bike of this. That's cool.

L&O always goes out of its way to vilify defense attorneys.

the actor playing bruner is absolutely incredible

I wonder if he ever ended up telling where the bodies are in any future episode

As an attorney I'd take this to the State Bar for an ethics opinion.

It wouldn't be in any way ethical, but dropping a hint to the genpop of his crimes, but mandating that _he's absolutely _*_not allowed to die..._* That would loosen his tongue pretty quick.

That series was so well written . They had a great eye for casting too .

I love Law and order

Every time I see this episode, it really annoys me that McCoy and Southerlyn weren't recused in this case. I mean, I get it, they're the only ADA's in the show, it has to be them. It bothers me way more than it should lmao

That suspect was channeling his inner Spacey back when he was in seven.

This is painful to watch. Yes, the attorney be hurt. Even if not disbarred, his reputation is at risk. Who would want to be represented by him. Lawyers may have a bad rep but everyone has the right to an attorney and I am sure that things like this happen today. That sick people tell their attorney and even show their attorney, horrible things. To expect an attorney to literally ruin his life like this is completely unreasonable! One of the few times I have been against the "good guys" of Law & Order.

Simple solution. Have the NY Bar allow him to talk. Or ask the Supreme Court. In this episode, it seems the Bar and court system are simply turning their backs on the issue.

And the next year that defense attorney was at Sacred Heart hospital scheming drugs off of Ellot Reid.

"YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO AN ATTORNEY" bruh he is an attorney lmao

Gotta give kudos to the actors playing the serial killer and his lawyer. You really want to hate both of them.

There might be an easy solution to this. If the lawyer went back and opened the lock again then people could probably find them from the smell. Then he wouldn't have to tell anybody or break his oath. Or alternatively he would present his credit card usage to the public. By doing so they could see how much gas he had and thus how far he traveled and which direction he went in.

Jack McCoy would be utterly blacklisted from any attorney cooperation if he prosecution this in real life. Lawyers don't like you jailing other lawyers.

One of those episodes in which I would have preferred Jack to losing instead of winning.

3:45 he is DESPERATE to feel important and in control 🤣

The BS in this episode. No judge would’ve allowed this to go to trial.

the prosecution is wrong here

They convicted the attorney. As one of the final lines went; "We put the system on trial and the system lost." They could've done a good follow-up with a future defendant refusing to assist in his own defense because he was afraid McCoy would put his lawyer in jail.

Shwimmer's sense of duty to Brunner goes way beyond the point of reason here. Bruner gleefully sold Schwimmer out to the prosecution, and Schwimmer still feels protecting his client's secret is worth going to prison over, even though they point out to him that keeping quiet at this point has literally no benefit for himself or Brunner. And once Schwimmer is sent to prison, he's automatically disbarred, which means he's no longer Brunner's lawyer, which means there's no more attorney-client privilege, which means that he no longer has an incentive to keep the location of the bodies a secret. Shwimmer wants to uphold attorney-client privilege and the legal system as a whole? Fine. He was subject to due process, given a trial, found guilty by a jury of his peers, and sentenced accordingly. And he's not a hero for being an accessory after the fact and keeping the location a secret. My headcanon says that he eventually reveals the location while he's in prison, if not also after Brunner is executed, but I seriously doubt it.

The greatest show of all time! Period

The defendant seems like a nice gentleman.

He would be disbarred. The whole case is an example of public pressure forcing a court case that will not have a winner.

Bruner on LAW and ORDER; makes William on SVU, seem like a Cub scout....

"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." - Star Trek: The Next Generation Jean luc Picard

Never saw this episode. I'm with the defense attorney on this one.

I wonder how McCoy, as a prosecutor and member of the bar, can even make that kind of argument

I don't like that he's keeping it a secret where the bodies are buried, but I do admire his principled stance, and he is right on this...

That is the Jack McCoy I know. The law only works when it suits HIM.

Ohhh it’s the husband Soul of Frankie and Grace! Wow he didn’t change in the last decades :o

Before Bruner was a Checheyan mobster in Gotham City, he was a psychopath. Makes sense.

This was definitely a conundrum.

Ritchie Coster is a fabulous and unfairly neglected actor.

This prosecution is not legally legitimate.

On rewatching this, I wonder if McCoy did not make a promise at the very end and whether that promise is ethical or legal. He stated that the people could overlook an ethics violation. He is "the people" and seems to be suggesting the current charges would be dropped and perhaps any others. He, however, has no power with respect to bar sanctions or even disbarrment, but seem to suggest that that would not be an issue. Also seems like the kind of case Adam Schiff would have said to either let go or find another way.

Great episode

It's evil like this is why those nearly endless appeals should not be allowed...

Isn't there an exception to these attorney-client privileges if the client is an admitted serial killer? It's a serious question I don't study law.

Telling a mob what they want to know doesnt make the mob right.

This is one of the few episodes of Law and Order that gives defense attorneys the time to speak their piece in a rational way. That lawyer is doing his job and violating it not only reflects on him, but on law period. Law and Order has a bad habit of making defense attorneys look bad, but they aren’t evil.

Nope. Id make them wait until he is executed then tell.

Unfortunately it shows the rigid, uncompromising & naive standards of the legal profession. They should at the very least have an ethical standards board that listens to cases such as this where the benefits of voiding said ethical standards/policies far outweigh the negatives. Sometimes rules can't be set in a vacuum.

He was also in Criminal Intent, another good episode.

Poor guy was just doing his job.

"Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat?" - A Man of All Seasons

Your ethics as a man are greater than your ethics as a lawyer. Yes he'd be disbarred and could never work as an attorney again, but a man as smart as an attorney can turn his life around from that easily

This killer deserved an Academy Award for this performance. Perfectly frightening.

Is it common for a serial killer to be put up for parole after 25 years because to me that sounds really light considering how the USA usually practices "LAW"

I understand both sides of the argument cuz it doesn't matter what you tell your attorney they can't disclose anything he could only say anything if his client permits him to and the people have a right to know what happened to the bodies but you can't charge him to force him to break privilege he should quit as an attorney then tell them since he technically wouldn't be an attorney and wouldn't be held by privilege

I had a thought while watching this. Mr. Schwimmer has sold his soul to Mr. Brunor in exchange for the opportunity to see where those bodies are. But because there is no way to enforce the contract, he can renege and reclaim his soul while retaining the knowledge about where the bodies are. All it will cost him is the career he has worked towards for his entire adult life.

Surely confidentiality can be waived if the DA agrees to waive any right to use that information as evidence. That's the primary reason it exists right?

This one was one the of the BEST episodes Law and Order had (including SVU) I was so angry at McCoy lol