Also the way society shames men for being virgins at any age greatly contributes to the ease with which one can become an incel.

You can see the chat just turn off their empathy and start meming the moment incels are brought up lol. Even good communities do it

"Incel" is a pretty bad term. There are plenty of people who are unable to get boyfriends/girlfriends. It isn't always because they have toxic personalities. Equating "incel" with hateful bitter men is pretty awful.

Pls no background music, it feels weird for any longer videos just having one tune the whole time, and it also wouldn't make sense to change songs since there aren't any distinct segments, so imo no music is ideal

Only thing I disagree with is that he said there isn't a crowd of people calling someone an incel. There absolutely is, it's an epithet online

Id love to see him teach people about social psychology, propaganda, group think and such

Healthy Gamer: We support the incel community... like, in a good way though,... generally speaking,... wait, maybe there's a better way to put that,... ™

i like that when i watch this guy i DONT feel like im loosing braincells. good find.

Im an incel, involuntary celular organism

"If you are an incel go to a forest and start meditating." Dr Chad Thundercock 2021

I find the whole "oh it's the internet" argument to be quite hard to believe considering that "incels" were already a thing(in essence) LONG before the internet.

I clicked on this because it’s interesting & this channel is great but I’ve gotta admit I’m kinda scared what the algorithm is gonna throw my way after watching a video about incels.

I understand the advice to get out there and try, but my question is "and do what?" Like, genuinely. I'm as shy and socially awkward as they come, I don't feel conformable in any situation where there are people, heaven forbid strangers. How am I supposed to perform at my best socially with a potential life partner when I'm busy staving off anxiety attacks?

I feel like a big part of incels becoming a thing is because of people making it a popular thing to hate them on a wide public scale online. Like all the videos a year or so ago that was all about laughing at them. Or how "incel" is now a common insult, basically replacing the older "virgin". Basically, it's a problem created in large part by it being given massive exposure by people deciding to make them the focus of many a cruel joke, which does nothing but enflame the issue.

As you said, in a partnership, partners must choose one other. Therefore, it is true that women choose men. The underlying problem incels face is that it doesn't matter who they choose, because they don't get chosen back.

I think it's more so people purposely trying to isolate people who already feel isolated. Understanding- not rejection- will help them.

"Just go to the gym bro"

To be honest, I'm losing all hope of finding someone ever. No one wants a broke and useless guy like me.

Hey (if you read this), seeing so many happy comments (and Dr. K's face) makes me happy, I hope y'all are doing okay fam! I'm no psychiatrist like Dr. K, but I just wanted to share some input I feel like maybe others relate to: I've never defined myself as an incel, but the more I learn about them, the more I realize I have related to them at some point (well I should specify: the non-violent, non-misogynistic type). When Dr. K talked about feeling subhuman, something clicked, bc I have been there before, for a lot of my life actually. There are many different reasons for ppl feeling this way, and I think many ppl go back to childhood experiences that made them feel like this. For me it was bullying, anger issues I had that were never properly addressed, and abuse I never spoke up about. But hey, even if you don't have a specific reason, your pain is still valid but you can also do something to change it (I'll leave what that thing is up to the experts and your personal thoughts). Also, I feel like we base too many of our milestones based on what we see on media. Like, for real, how many ppl ACTUALLY relate to teen movie rom-coms? Not many, I can tell you that. And it's important to understand that, ppl are living their life on different timelines with different priorities. And we as a society have to learn to accept each other for that rather than making ppl feel weird about it. I am 22 and have come to the realization that I am okay and normal for never having been on a date or had my first kiss- I had my struggles growing up, had to take some time to introspect and change, and have also been hellishly busy with academic pursuits. And I really freaking like being alone and thinking and working on random ass projects (hopefully one of which I'll finish at some point, lol). And guess what society? You don't need to depict a nerdy character like me as someone that needs to be "saved and mature" with the help of a romantic partner that probably doesn't exist in real life- I am the way I am and that's all and ain't nobody ever gonna change my nerdy tendencies bc I am proud of them. That is the timeline I operate on, and when I feel ready, I will make a move. Capeesh? Anyway I hope you felt better after reading this. Love you all, my beta-gene peeps ;)

Female incel - everyone goes awww. Male incel - quickly, mock how pathetic they are and call the media. Thank you HealthyGamer to try to shift the above and throw some sympathy their way. These kids are lost and they need help, not mockery and disdain.

Not to be all incel-y but I think some people have very little choice that you're so hungry or starving for affection that one person might not pick, they'll default to whatever is available

It,'s so extremely sad how many people think they're "subhuman" due to ridiculous societal expectations. Being unattractive myself I get it, it's very hard to resist when all that you can get from the opposite sex is shaming, rejection, and sometimes downright bullying (or abuse if you are in relationships) while your struggles are constantly downplayed. However the healing is possible. I finally found my sense of self worth and I so desperately hope all those young men will find it too, as soon as possible.

The background music was quite distracting, could you please not include it next time? Also could you put timestamps of the vod where you took this segment of in the discription? Sometimes I feel I need some context. Anyways thanks for what y'all do

and what are we ugly people suppose to do. those of us who are really ugly and not some fakecel angst teen, but a grown man whos been called ugly by everyone, even his own family and lives in isolation. these videos and comments are such strawmans.....

One of the most misunderstood groups and one of the most hated too. It's like their pain is not worth treating. Our society is truly disgusting sometimes.

It's important to note that research on incels is nascent and generally of poor quality. For example, the term "incel radicalization process," coined in 2020, was formed on the basis of analysis of a single reddit post on r/braincels, by researchers who even admitted to being biased: "the women researchers were often profoundly disturbed by the content of the transcripts. Besides, it was often hard for us to separate our personal views as women from the real voices of the commenters" (Maxwell, Robinson, Williams, & Keaton, 2020, p. 1869). The KZfaq study Dr. K. references, namely, Papadamou, Zannettou, Blackburn, De Cristofaro, Stringhini, and Sirivirianos (2021), is stronger, but their methodology and usage of charged language is highly questionable, given that they pared down the incels' lexicon and, at multiple times, used researcher discretion to determine if a video was incel-related or incel-derived. They also equivocated the degree of severity of the ideas within each category, leading to all videos in a category apparently having the same effect size in terms of radicalization. Perhaps the most telling aspect is that there have been literally zero studies done in which incels have been interviewed. In all the incel-related research, hypocrisies within the group as a collective have been ascribed to individual incels, treating the Elliot Rodgers of the world in the same terms as the average incel. It seems that researchers have refused to actually test to see if these group hypocrisies actually apply to individuals in the incel community. Note: I'm working on a paper on exactly this topic-lacunae within incel-related research-so I'm quite familiar with the particular studies Dr. K. is discussing. There's a lot more to the story, and of the "manosphere" in general. References: Maxwell, D., Robinson, S. R., Williams, J. R., & Keaton, C. (2020). “A short story of a lonely guy”: A qualitative thematic analysis of involuntary celibacy using Reddit. Sexuality & Culture, 24, 1852-1874. doi.org/10.1007/s12119-020-09724-6 Papadamou, K., Zannettou, S., Blackburn, J., De Cristofaro, E., Stringhini, G., & Sirivianos, M. (2021). Understanding the incel community on youtube. arXiv:2001.08293v5.

Men who are genetically unlucky are guaranteed to end up this way unless they find a partner. Those who are born short, ugly, into poverty, etc really have no chance other than extreme luck with dating. Otherwise it's loneliness, alienation, depression, suicide. The reality is that while inceldom is a mindset, it's caused and reinforced 100% by external factors. Men who face decades of rejection and shame for being born in a way that women hate and society mocks have very little chance of ending up happy and normal. Just the way it is.

8:33 I disagree, there are in fact people "running around" indirectly calling incels they are incels, because the world and overall society is putting so much value on sex and sexual relationships, so that can be overwhelming for incels. However yes, it's a good remedy to just tell the rest of the world "fuck you, you don't know jack shit about values" and stop caring.

Yeah, but the question is - are the incels right? Is being tall and with a good jaw line ect ect have affect on your dating opportunities? And we all know what is the anwser to that. Why we pretend that everyone have the same oportunities when its about dating? Your "intrinsic value" as a human being have nothing to do with your dating success.

There comes a moment where it takes too much effort to keep trying. Whats even the point. 33 years and no results.

It's strange that chat thinks Jordan Peterson is a gateway to "incel radicalization", if anything he's the opposite

The music feels incredibly out of place. It's either because I'm so used to there not being any music with HG videos or something else.

Because of this channel I’ve found the self esteem to break out of the Incel community to find that relationship I almost gave up on. It wasn’t easy as going back to online dating meant that I needed to have patience and to hold no expectations. Eventually the conversations where getting better as I learned to ignore or pass on those who didn’t put in the effort. Now I’ve found someone. Unfortunately it’s a long distance relationship. But since writing this post we’ve been together since July of 2020 and have plans to move in together. I would not have been here if I continued to be in the Incel community. However I listen from time to time to reflect on who I was and help others who need it and want it.

I've had girls tell me honesty that everything is right with me, but the only reason they reject me is because I'm ugly. And these were the same girls who a short time later went on and got into relationships with chads and completely ignored their personality, confidence, etc. They were girls of every type who rejected me, such as, short, tall, fat, skinny, ugly, hot, etc. And this went on for 15 years. So yes, your physical looks do have everything to do with it.

I'm in my mid 30's and never kissed a girl.

I went full doomer from smelling the stench of the world. Not from anyone radicalizing me.

This is the reason I refuse to be called an incel. I'd rather be called a virgin. "Incel" is like a personality trait that can never be changed. "Virgin" is I've never had sex before and that's all. Has no bearing on my self worth at all

Based around the context of the conversation, I feel like the definition of an incel changed slightly since about 8-9 years ago when I first saw that term.

It's funny how people feel the need to distance themselves away from incels before making any opinion, which only worsens the problem.

Sounds like you’re missing the point a little when she says “women get to pick.” This refers to the dynamic of how men and women choose their partners and it’s generally the case that men are expected to “make a move” so to speak and initiate attempts at romantic contact. Whether that’s the case or not, that’s how many people, especially incels, view gender dynamics. So many male incels will express frustration that it’s unfair that they have to proposition women. This is because they often lack self confidence or don’t understand social queues and don’t know when a woman is expressing interest. They want women to make the first move. This woman is expressing that same sentiment and for her it’s much worse because as a woman she’s expecting sexual attention from men simply because she’s a woman and that since she’s not getting attention, she thinks this shows that basically even the most desperate men don’t find her attractive. Again, whether true or not, this is how incels see the world and it’s how many people see the world in general. If you live in a world where it is generally true that men will be expected to court women thus putting women in a position where they have choice of a partner, you’ll end up with women who feel inadequate if they don’t get attention and men who feel frustrated by the expectation that they must “make the first move.” I’m not passing moral judgment on how things are or ought to be, just my opinion on how your response is lacking some awareness there.

"The only time you don't have a chance is when you stop trying", but what happens when your dogged pursuit of that chance ends up expending all of your energy, leaving you in an even worse state than before? I liken it to people who are gambling addicts who spend so much money trying to chase the big money, yet end up broke or in debt with nothing to show for it. Perhaps some of these incels ended up the way they did because they tried so hard to find someone for years and years, got nothing, and are now bitter husks of their former selves.

I don't want to paint a bleak picture but I don't think it's hyperbolic to say that the average man is 'incel like' between relationships so if you're not in a relationship right now, you would have to be very lucky or completely go against your personality to get a bit of affection as in short term sex. I think the good thing about this whole incel 'popularization' is that more guys are becoming open about how they are not getting laid and they are coming out of the closet as straight guys with no love. It's taking the jab out of the insult and taking the power back so to speak. Realistically for all we pretend the fact remains that the average guy does not have women falling on his lap so what difference does it make if he verbalizes it very now and then and gets peer support on forums? Just because the man does not verbalize it does not mean that the circumstances are not there. Would you believe the average guy to be a millionaire unless he told you that he works for an average salary? Would you believe that he's built like superman underneath his clothes unless he undresses and lets you know? Would you think that he speaks a lot of languages fluently unless evidence to the contrary surfaces? It's the same thing with the incel thing; the average guy and even above average guys are struggling with women and still maintaining a facade in everyday life because they reason, in good or bad, that even the rare woman who takes interest in him will completely lose those feelings if she learns about his hardship and that shatters her fantasy of him as a high value man or whatever whereas guys are like "Oh shit awesome, she knows a life of powerlessness like me!" if a woman were to air similar thoughts. Just like feminists burning their bra and declaring themselves proud to be body positive feminists men should exclaim that they are incels and women should better learn to take it instead of forcing men to pretend to be something they are not. Does that make sense?

Quick reminder to any single people out there looking for a relationship that have trouble: its not just about finding someone who shares the same interests as you or finding someone who finds you attractive. It might take a while and that's okay, move at your pace and forgive yourself for the times where someone hurt you, find someone who you can communicate your fundamentals and boundaries to that's comfortable with sharing theirs with you because when you can find someone like that, you'll find it lasting a lot longer even if you don't have a lot in common. Relationships are a two way street and it takes a lot more than playing the same video games, watching the same shows or finding each other attractive to have a healthy one

The ignorance is maddening. Men still have to approach 90% of the time. The interest of the person approaching is a given; it doesn't have to be earned or ascertained. I doubt the female incel had actually asked men out - she is probably angry that particular social norm didn't work out for her. Well ... too bad. We don't get the option of expecting others to show up for us. There are no excuses made for men and sadly many guys learn too late that they need to be the active party. It's absurd to suggest that this is just about general social skills.

Just get three haircuts and lift weights in the shower bro

I'm not an incel because i dont give a flying fck about having sex or loosing my "virginity" but i grave for love and compassion which i will never have unless i radicially change my life and even then its not guranteed and thats something which makes me utterly and completly depressed which results in complete lack of motivation to do anything

Great video! Im currently working on a research paper that addresses the role of Social Media in Incel radicalization and your video explained it on point!

I really love that it had a message from a female incel because people don't really talk about that. I look forward to seeing less talked about issues on the channel.

If healthy gamer would like to help "real incels" then I'd recommend digging through the evidence they bring to the table to explain their world-view. I've worked though my self esteem issues but still believe the same shit incels do, that hasn't changed. The incel world-view is completely in line with our observable reality and it's tiring to never have it taken seriously.

“I am not what I think I am. I am not what you think I am. I am what I think you think I am.” - Charles Horton Cooley

its not self esteem, its looks, money, status..

Great. Now KZfaq is going to populate my feed with incel videos. I accept my fate. I’ll start posting on 4chan and donating all my cash to hot tub streamers on Twitch.

A lot of smooth brains in the chat

“The cure to being an incel is getting laid” - Dr. K

I was in a similar boat. Lost my virginity at 26 - with my very first girlfriend. However having had only about 2-3 more sexual partners at 30; I can say the insecurity and feeling undesirable has NOT gone away, even after having some interest. It really goes deeper.

I don't know in what language or dialect should I say this but here we go: if you're ugly, it's only bad, truly bad, if you're a man. This is a fact that you can't deny. You only receive a penalization when you lack any form of physical attractiveness as a man. Have you ever seen a sub5 girl struggling a lot when comes to dating, to have a relationship? At this point it's quite ludicrous to deny that beauty is an important factor (if you lack it, do not bother with other bullshit aspects) that brings you a lot of options in the dating market. You have to consider the following aspects: -we, as a species, have sexual dimorphism; -females are a lot more visual than us; -females must invest a lot when comes to find a partner because they spend 9 months to bring a child, therefore it's important for them to find good genes When you realise that this discrimination is based on a evolutionary perspective, it's still reasonable to feel some form of rage? I think so. There are some other discriminations that are, now, unacceptable by common opinion. So why we should make an exception in this case? Oh, yes, I understand! As long as this problem is a male issue, it's not a huge problem, since males, specially those with bad genes, are disposables. What a clown world.

i'm a trans guy with terrible self esteem at times and i can really relate to the incel idea of feeling sub-human, unattractive or "beta". i think the incel community is incredibly toxic but i know myself these feelings have made me incredibly toxic towards myself and anyone else that gets a peek at them. but i'm starting to see the other side of it, it's a lot of work but i hope one day i can truly not hate myself thank you dr K for the awesome videos.

Women choose who gets sex. Men choose who gets a relationship.

The background music makes it a bit difficult to focus on what you're saying

Whether the "incel" is a woman or a man, I feel so much compassion for them. The yearning for a romantic relationship & the frustration when it doesn't happen hurts a person very deeply. There are so many complicated reasons.

To be fair its harder for an average woman to be someone that is involuntary celibate (incel) in a society where women are sexualized and desired just for sex, so it makes sense as to why its mostly used for men. Still shout out to that woman for bringing it up and seeking help with her situation.

if one were to listen to an incels story im fairly sure it would move you tl tears. i cant imagine the amount of pain you need to push you that far.

You dont need to watch any video, its enough that everyone you know is looking at you like you're some weirdo in his 30s without ever having a relationship...no need for the internet to make it bad

“Just lift weights and grow a perfect Norwood hairline bro”..... “just be 6’8” bro”... I was born and it was over before it began.

I actually like the music, its not too loud and makes the video more casual and chill

There's a lot of people who are not virgins physically, but are still mentally. They are filled with insecurities, negative core beliefs, ego, emotional baggage, even misogyny, and it's scary to know how many people are there, waiting to create a marriage by chance without previous emotional healing nor plans to seek therapy. No wonder why incels are filled with resentment.

Low self-esteem is only bad for male incels. If you're a woman with low self-esteem, men will date you regardless. In fact, a lot of men are actually specifically into women with low self-esteem

I like to think I'm over my obsession with being depressed about not having a romantic partner once I turned 18. I'm 20 now and still haven't had one, however I'd be lying if I didn't say I still feel a bit terrible about it.

Oh oh this comment section is gonna be wild af

Thanks for clearing that up. My 2.5 year dry spell is all in my head then? lmao

I don't get why the smv jawline thing is false tho, I've seen so much evidence of it being true literally everywhere.

While it's true that both people in a relationship approve of the other person in some sense, there is an asymmetrical selection process where women have far higher standards for men than vice versa. This isn't going to change, but I do wish people would at least acknowledge it.

Thank you for this

what a great piece of advice at the end

Invite *FaceandLMS* please.. ps: You forgot to ask what the girl was looking into.. chances are high that she aimed too high, instead of looking for her looksmatch..

Dear Dr K, how can we (women) help the incels? I have noticed some of my collegues have opinons like "women have all the choice" "women are so expensive" etc etc it borderlining on inceldom and I think it would benefit a lot of other women to know how to counter these types of talking points and how we can help these men.

it's a kind of matthew effect in the self-steem. I was thinking and maybe now I see my low self-steem which I got because i had bad experiences, after those experiences, it gave me more bad experiences that make my self-steem going even lower. This give me hope, maybe if I don't let facts affect it, this self-steem will grow with positive experiences that will come with a new positive attitude :,)

It's scary how accurate this is. It took me years to overcome low self esteem, and I still have doubts on occasion. Even after losing the Vcard and getting a gf I still felt like shit.

The notion that females select does (in my opinion) come from the fact that men (almost) always consent to sex if not a relationship. So of course it is a mutual agreement, but if one side is to 90+% consenting you can savely ignore this part of the equation and "females select" holds true.

Why even have relationships though? what's the point?

So it's my superiority complex that makes me immune to incel radicalisation..

I am a 1/10 so because of hypergamy there is nobody lower AKA willing to date me

I’ve been in and out of the incel community for ~8 years and I really would like to talk to Dr. K about the subculture when you’re “in deep”. In terms of IRL experiences I’m not a real incel but I definitely understand the black pill worldview and its conceptual backing to a much greater degree than anyone he has interviewed on the subject. How does one go about getting selected for these?

My closest cousin is what I would call an incel. He has never really had a girlfriend or an actual job. He is not really bad looking at all and I have discussed with female friends and they agree he is fact, attractive. He obviously has self esteem issues because he has a heavy russian accent, still lives with his dad and doesn't have a job. I know how those things can take a toll on you. But there is an added layer that I think is not discussed. Standards. I feel he also has these unrealistic standards. He wants a job but it can't be minimum wage because then he feels that is beneath him and the girl has to be quite attractive with certain proportions. Although I can relate because we all really want the best things in life I feel he lives in denial. Actually if he was putting himself out there and shooting his shot at hot women and high tier jobs I would understand but we all know he's just shooting it all down before it even comes close. Like the Doctor said. The only way there is no chance is if you don't try. He's waiting for the perfect conditions to fall into his lap. I know from experience that at the very least he has to change course and put himself out there, explore new hobbies and communicate with people somehow. He's currently trapped in his own mind where the variables put in are always the same with the same outcomes. It only takes a small chain reaction that snowballs into a way bigger thing. One day you are throwing frisbees alone at your dog in the park, two years later you are in a different state with a new job and a partner that loves you. The outcomes will not always be ideal but you will have lived and gained experience. That to me is worth it.

Found your channel because I have been researching this generation and the breakdown of heterosexual relationships in western culture. I take records of premarital relations over 24 year period, I then look at these social and politicized movements and look to see what difference or effect there is if any. This is so much bigger then the digital aged generation.

cue 50% of dr K's audience

Responding to twitch chat rather than dr. k: the term femcel is like saying femteacher. incel/teacher is already gender neutral, my guy, what are you doing.

Anyone with 50 bucks in their pocket isn't technically an incel, but let's not go there lol

Incels start being incels by life circumstances and then they go in search of others in similar circumstances. Radicalization comes from frustration and inability of fixing it.

I was radicalized in life.

Any chance we could get the name of the track in the background? It's super relaxing.

It’s not an outward change, it’s an inward change. PREACH!

I hate that you have to go back on the whole “women pick” notion. Saying that women pick doesn’t mean that the relationship isn’t chosen by two people, and it isn’t “inc*l talk”. It’s simply a basic biological and social fact. Males in the wild pursue females, and females are supposed to be choosy. The most classic example of this comes from birds. Males will have nice feather colors or they will literally dance for a females attention. Males are the ones pursuing, and females are choosing from the pursuers. They’re trying to pick the best one they can get. After all, pregnancy is a big deal. There have been countless videos on KZfaq of men asking women if they pursue men. Most of the time they don’t actively pursue. They say that they’ll look at the guy longer, or do any other non-verbal form of communication (which, I’m pretty sure women use and are better at reading non verbal communication). However, very few of them say that they’ll go and talk to a man first. Most expect men to initiate the conversation.

"The only time when you don't have a chance is when you stop trying", on that note i would really like to know Dr. K´s take on the other group that sometimes gets bunched up with In*els, those who are "going their own way". Specially since i almost got caught up in that way of thinking. (also i don't usually censor my comments but papa youtube gets angy with those terms)

Dude this guy has a wife/girlfriend how the hell is he going to relate to someone who has never been through that? He's probably blue pilled at best

Looks, money and status. Betabuxx is your destiny if you are a sub 8.

Nah some of us are legitimately unlikeable, wouldn't say sub human, never felt like that, but I'm done trying at this point because literally every woman I've proposed to, has rejected me. Nowadays I just go to escorts when I have needs to be taken care and I am in a much better place, I won't be having a family now, so I'm using all of my disposable income on the things I like, while I can just still be myself. Not sure it will work for most incels butbhey, it surely does for me.

He definitely missed the mark on this one... Question: I can't find anyone interested in me, what should I do? Dr K: We get radicalized online and these companies keep you watching the same content based on algorithms.

It's pretty concerning how much social media algorithms can reinforce your perspectives by simply recommending similar contents until you're left with only fewer lenses to perceive the world.

You did say that women are the deciders in the sexual marketplace