Thanks Tyler. Even as an engineer, I find that the math you don't exercise regularly ends up feeling rejected and sneaks away.

Exactly! For your amusement, if you haven't already seen it: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/isCKeb2JuamolI0.html

Thanks, Mia. We are doing well and hope you are, too.

Thanks Brian!

The techniques you outline are impressive. I wonder if you can point me to some resources or provide some guidance on the size of trees this technique can be applied to. For example, I am working with a lot of 80-ish year old Douglas Fir and Red Alder. Quite tall / robust trees. Is it possible to use this technique on trees of that size?

I am not aware of any such resource. With an engineering analysis and accurate data, it would be possible to analyze specific cases. However, since you are talking about what the limits might be, the critical unknown would probably be the weight of the tree. That is assuming you had an accurate assessment of the other factors, such as lean angles and directions, strength of your anchor points, chains, and winches. In engineering, however, we don't like to work close to the limits; prefer to have a reasonable factor of safety. I have broken chains several times and recently snapped the cable (old) on my cable winch. I was working on some big trees, taking them out by the roots, so they stayed put when they succeeded in breaking the cable. If I had been trying to pull a back leaner and had already made a notch and back cut, it would not have been good. In such back-leaner circumstances, I try to make sure I am using two chain lines and two winches. If I was working on a back leaner, I would also want to check to make sure that my pulling was actually moving the top some before making any cuts in the trunk.

Thanks, Luke.

Thanks, Felix.

Robbie JK Thanks Robbie.

+Joshua Scott Thanks Josh. Stay safe!

Good idea. Thanks.

We usually tie an old jacket on the chain or rope if we think it could break.

@@sweet65mustang I don't understand how that's supposed to help. Could you (or anyone else) explain?

@@patrickcleburneuczjsxpmp9558 so you have chain or cable being stressed to the point of possible failure. (Cables likely fail at one of the ends. Chains aren't as predictable) tie a jacket or blanket in the center and which ever side is the longest, which would carry the most energy, will have the jacket acting like a parachute as it's speeding toward the pulling or pulled vehicle or item. You can see a bunch of trucks breaking chains that snap back and fly through the rear window. That blanket or jacket might slow it down enough to hit below the window. It doesn't make it totally safe but every bit helps. To give an exaggerated example imagine the difference between holding a piece of string out the window of a cat going 40 mph. Now imagine it with a balloon at the end of the string.

@@sweet65mustang Thanks very much for the explanation!

You're welcome. Hope your project goes well.

Hi, Interesting. Do you have a photo, that depicts how it looks like?

Definitely a good idea. Sadly, I haven't been adventurous enough to figure out how. Guidance?

@@terryhale9006 You can make a playlist on your channel from any videos, even from those that are not your own. People do that a lot with music, when they make playlists of their favorite songs. To make one is simple - just find a video you want and click on that SAVE button, which is located there where the thumb up and down voting buttons are. Just click it and choose the option "create a new playlist", which you can than name as you wish. Than the video will automatically be added to that playlist, and when you than want to add a new video to that same playlist, you just do to the video to watch it and press that SAVE button again, and than KZfaq will automatically recommend your already made playlists and you can choose to save that video to that playlist also. Do this to all the videos you want on your playlist and your done.

You buy a lot of capacity with those prices.

Thanks, Capn. I'l hope you make nothing but good choices on which ones you can tackle yourself and which need to be done by someone with more equipment.

@@terryhale9006 Thanks for your prompt and thoughtful reply. The lion share of my life's (I'm early 60's) work has been as a residential carpenter with some intermittent employ as such on some large commerical projects. So I certainly understand to be safe concerning large.weights and heights. I'm too old to climb trees with a belt and spikes so for the larger tree that could fall in our home I'm considering the use of a bucket truck rental manned by a responsible "ground man". The cranes that I've hired to hoist large trusses onto walls don't seem to have the load capacity to lay down the 70' - 80' or more pines and white ash trees I need felled. They would seem dangerous to the operator and crane truck as well as to my home. I was just curious about the crane trucks as use for tree felling as the thought of that crossed my mind over the last year or so as I mulled over and pondered the safest and best affordable options. That sweet gum tree was over 80' tall and its companion pine was only about 60' that I paid to get dropped. My tree man used a 5/16"chain to drop the sweet gum tree with a heavy duty come along and rope with a lighter come along for rhe pine. He did well and was cheap at $400.00, with a good area reputation. However he carried no liability insurance, so for the larger trees everyone about here wants $1,000 per tree for the big ones! (Ouch! - too rich for my blood!) We've not any that present an immediate danger but I'm looking for an ounce of prevention now, rather than a pound of cure later. You intrigued me when tou mentioned the crane truck. I've worked around tower cranes and wrecking balls also. I certainly am not a know it all yet I sure appreciate your word and good will for my caution. Crane truck?

180 with little tension. If, instead, you pull roughly in the direction you want it to fall, as soon as the tree starts to move, that line goes slack and is no longer controlling the direction. However, if you can get your line really high, up to where you can induce a significant bend in the tree, the tree, when cut, will be pulled in that direction until the bend is gone. If it moves enough in the direction you want it to go, then it is unlikely to change that direction.

Thanks again for your help. And Happy Thanksgiving!

The arrow concept is appealing due to the ability to aim accurately. However, there are some major problems with it, mostly having to do with the mass of the arrow. Most throw bags are in the range of 12 to 16 ounces; arrows are much lighter. That mass is critical for its momentum and weight. It has to be able to pull the string behind it. A lightweight arrow is quickly decelerated and pulled off course by the air resistance and mass of a string. Once the string is up in the tree, the weight of the throw bag is again critical to pulling the string back down to the ground. As the string is over a branch, the bark provides a rough surface that can have a lot of friction. On one side will be a light arrow and some string. On the other side will be a lot of string, reaching all the way back down to the ground. Under those conditions, it can be impossible to get the arrow end to pull the sting up. In many cases, even a throw bag will get hung up in the leaves and twigs and will have to be pulled back up, possibly even over the branch for a second attempt. Trying to pull an arrow backwards through the branches is practically begging for a snag. Even if your arrow goes through the crotch you want, there is no guarantee it will stop there. Your arrow may pull your string through even higher, but weaker branches. If so, you end up with the same problem with trying to pull the arrow back though a tangle of small branches. I'm not saying an arrow concept won't work, but I know of no professionals who would choose it over the Big Shot sling shot. If someone doesn't want to buy a Big Shot, I wouldn't recommend trying to resort to archery. A bad job of fastening the string to the arrow could leave you wondering where it went to and whether it made a hole in someone's shingle, windshield, or skull.

Hi John. I have never used their rope puller, but the continuous feed through would certainly be a huge help on jobs where you have to do a lot of re-rigging. My main reason for not going that route is my aversion to highly tensioned ropes. Right now I am pulling a boulder that ways around 9 tons and I only trust heavy chain and 2 or 3-ton capacity winches. My pull points are over 80 feet away, so every time I have to reset the winches, I lose over two feet of pull just to the sagging of the chain. (Five feet down.) If I had a relatively light pull to do over a long distance, a puller would be ideal.

@@terryhale9006 Thank you. I'm cutting relatively small trees, about 12-15" diameter maximum and wouldn't need to pull them if they weren't so close to the house. I hire a professional for any thing larger. I think I'll try one.

Definitely, provided you can apply enough pulling force. If you can apply the force higher, the horizontal pull you need to exert will be reduced.

Thanks, John. No relation that I am aware of.

+Indrekk Pringi I usually use the pulley that comes integrated with the winch so the winch's cable can be doubled. I am usually more concerned about generating a strong pull, rather than a long pull. Other than that one dedicated pulley, I have never run chain through a pulley. I do sometimes use a pulley with rope, however. In those cases, I have usually decided I can get the force I need with a rope and pulley and I just don't want to go to all the work of dragging out the chain and winch.

Basically, rope if you're going to pull by hand, chain/cable if your going to use some kind of winch.

Patrick, it pains me to say that it appears that the original Little Mules are no longer being made. The closest thing to them appears to be the Lug-All line. While the body looks good to me, I am not impressed by the handles that appear to be a pipe crushed flat where they need to bolt to the winch. It could be that the handles are stronger than they look. I believe you can trust the capacities they list. On some stamped sheet steel models, I would not trust the capacities they claim. Total length of cable is also an important consideration.

@@terryhale9006 Thank you very much! Your videos have been super helpful.

True. Some trees, like banyan, can really spread. What species are you thinking of?

@@terryhale9006 Newfoundland trees, pine, spruce, fur, dog berry trees(as we call them suspect they have another name) Birch, and least a few more species that get often confused with some of the others. plus maple trees of course and i'm sure i'm forgetting some tree names.

When you buy them, they usually are in a bucket which indicates grade. In all honesty, I have been accumulating chains for three decades and have no idea what grades I have. In general, though, I have avoided buying the higher grades as, with my work, the extra capacity is almost never an issue, while the higher costs are.

Bad one on me. I would never use either a chain that weak or a utility carabiner to do an actual pull. Not sure why I got lazy. Maybe I was not wanting to carry out the heavy bucket of chain just to film the "padding demo." Good catch.

The terminology gets a bit tricky. When you say "maximum load capacity", that usually connotes the capacity at which something breaks. For safety and liability reasons, manufacturers usually refer to the "rated capacity" which means the load that can safely be used without risk of the item breaking. It also depends on whether you are using a single-line to pull or using doubled line. The Little Mule product literature indicates that the rated load for the doubled line (which I pretty much always use) is 4000 pounds. It further indicates that all them are tested to 125% of that, so each is tested to 5000# before leaving the factory .. The literature further states that they have a minimum design factor of 4:1. I believe that means that, brand new, they are designed to theoretically not break until a load of 16,000 pounds. I don't know at what load the sacrificial handle yields as mine did, but I suspect it was with a load somewhere in the vicinity of 7000#. As a side note, I have had several people suggest they could simple "Yank it with their pickup." I usually reply that my little winch could lift their big truck completely off the ground.

@@terryhale9006 Always informative, many thanks from Baghdad Iraq!

Good advice. I ended up on my back when the regular links of a chain pulled through one of those screw links. The threads held fine, but the solid part of the link yielded.

Sir, how did you end up on your back? ... did the flying chain hit you?

Thirty-five years ago, I was a pretty fast center forward. Now I'm pleased when one foot plants in front of the other.

Doc, I'm sorry for having wasted your time. I will put one up to spare others the same fate. I had lost incentive, as there were quite a few videos out there, by others, adequately covering the subject. To complicate matters, I launched an ambitious clearing operation that became an obsession. That is now essentially done, so I will return to making the videos I had planned. Terry

Not convinced. Mine wore out after just two years. Granted, I should have paid more attention to the maintenance requirements for the bearings. Regardless, I found it pretty heavy to lug around.

Terry Hale the box is covered in warning labels that say to lubricate it 😁🤗😎

Unfortunately. I bought mine off the shelf. It didn't have a box.

Terry Hale yet you are promoting tuf tug?? Wyeth Scott beats tuf tug by miles, you should agree! 😉

Pretty sure I didn't promote tuf tug.

I'm not one to argue with thousands of years of evidence. Run away! Run away!

While the cable might have some distinct advantages for weight/strength, the problems I would anticipate would be with how to adjust lengths to the needs. With chain, you can use a choke hook at any link along the length or, as I am often forced to do, put the point of a hook into a link. The flexibility in setting the length is not only important because you have to use a good anchor point at whatever distance it exists but also because you often have to effect some progress capture. Trying to grab a new connection point on a cable sounds like a tricky operation to me.

@@terryhale9006 Home depot sells adjustable cable ends "Stainless Steel Clamp Set". If you are using two winches and two cables (or more) side by side, then it should be possible to adjust the cable length on the fly using these clamp set?

@@springer-qb4dv Thanks. I'll look into that.

kzfaq.info/get/bejne/d99mlK6Fzb_Dk4E.html

In my line of engineering, it is just a college memory.

In this instance, running away from the stump was planned and safest. The tree had a broad crown and a straight fall is not guaranteed when there are still a bunch of deep roots that could change its direction of fall. Running sideways would have required running out of the way of the broad crown and an unknown amount of redirected fall.

@@terryhale9006 Thanks for the input. Have you done a video on the trigonometry of 2 rope pulls? That is what I mostly do if property is withing distance.. If I can get my ropes maybe 150° apart, the tree will fall within the circles provided by the 2 ropes. Of course you would need a 3rd rope in the middle if a heavy tree is leaning toward a house...but I would not cut that tree anyway. I do use ropes with stretch but I use ropes a lot stronger than my come-a-longs. A chain or rope without stretch goes slack in a very short distance. A rope with stretch keeps pulling the tree farther where desired. I appreciate your guidance on the breakage disadvantage.

(Chuckle.)

I've broken two that had cable. One crushed the main ratchet. The more recent crushed the pulley on the cable. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with them. Let's just say that I prefer to work with cable winches where my strength is the limiting factor.

I was also taught to run perpendicular to the tree. You tend to get away from it quicker.

Thanks, Steven. I do not know why the Greifzug cable pullers have not become popular in the United States. Being able to do long, continuous pulls seems like a nice advantage.

Ropes have different amounts of stretchiness. A stretchy rope is considered "dynamic". For a climbing rope, dynamic is better. If your spurs gaff out and let you drop, your climbing/safety rope will catch you. If that rope doesn't stretch a bit, that stop will jar your. If you fall two or three feet, that jarring could sprain your neck or injure you worse. At the other end of the stretchiness spectrum, you have "static" ropes, which stretch very little. One of the advantages of having a rope not stretch is that, if you are trying to pull a tree over, you don't want to waste energy stretching the rope until you are finally exerting the amount of pull you need.

@@terryhale9006 where is the link of the product please?

All those calculations and seriousness, and he throws in "run like a bunny." Cracked me up.

+Joshua Scott I don't think I can really help you there. Most of the "arborist supply houses" are selling items produced by manufacturers other than themselves, so the quality is determined by the manufacturers, not the resellers. For those items, the prices reflect the competition between the resellers and their need to make a profit. While there are several others, the first three that I usually check are Sherrill, Wesspur, and American Arborist. If failure of the item will not be a safety problem, I also occasionally check to see if there are any reduced price items on e-bay for second-hand stuff.

Excellent

+Terry Hale Can't Believe I forgot to List TreeStuff.com.

I can't argue about the weight. How much stretch do you get when doing a tough pull?

@@terryhale9006 two tons per rope. X2 ropes= 4tons does most trees I've cut...a 3rd rope = 6 tons total... I use separate come-alongs and separate anchor ropes to separate anchor trees.

As the grade goes up, the prices go up, but even faster. The series is aimed more for the casual land owner, rather than for someone with a corporate charge account. Also, as a safety issue, the higher grades of steel tend towards more sudden and brittle failures. With milder grades of steel, you tend to get more stretch and warning when you've overstressed something. That said, if you've got high strength chain, Great!

+2pacnasgame The most important lesson in the video.

+Lee Goins Yes. That tail end is sampled from a longer video documenting that digging process, kzfaq.info/get/bejne/isCKeb2JuamolI0.html.

This seems to be a recurring theme with KZfaq vids about getting out tree stumps . I have seen a load of them where it looks like they have dug round the roots ,cut through them and then carefully re buried them before filming starts and then ...presto! The tree pops out of the ground like magic after just a simple little pull

I'm sure you're not suggesting I run in a serpentine pattern. In this case, running away from the tree was the shortest path to safety. It had a wide top, so I would have had to run to either side a good distance to avoid getting hit by the wide top. Add to that the uncertainty over the slight possibility that a deep root could have changed the direction of fall by 30 or 40 degrees and I might have needed to run 40 or 50 feet sideways to be sure of not getting hit. I knew I only had to run 20 feet away from the tree to be safely out of its reach.

Getting it to that condition was a lot of work. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/isCKeb2JuamolI0.html

Orange, chainsaw-resistant rubber boots, black belt.

I think you set a trap for me and I got caught. I have worked with several techs and engineers who seem to pride themselves on wearing mis-matched out fits. When you try to help them they give you that Einstein was a poor dresser. But If your really smart you get many things. Idiot savants are very smart at one thing.

Good eye! I hadn't noticed it. For some reason, we had thousands of both baby frogs and toads that year.

Generator would add to the cost.

There are plenty of people who lack experience and could make that type of mistake..

Sorry. Wasn't intended to be exciting.