This content is why I buy AHOC merch. I know these videos dont get tons of views, but I genuinely appeciate this informative research.

love this highly technical deep inside. thank you for this kind of content and thank you for all your efforts.

When the Ryzen 5000 series came out windows did not report WHEA errors most of the time either, similar to the current situation with 7000 series. There was then either a windows or driver update (not sure which, but I have a feeling that it was windows), after which the WHEA errors started being reported. Hopefully we get that again for 7000 series, although it has been some time since release now, so maybe AMD decided not to expose then this time around.

Ryzen 3000 also has error correction in the infinity fabric, IF you enable it. Which, I suspect a lot of motherboards dont let you do. My Asrock X570 Taichi by default has this disabled, and lets you enable error detection and then error correction for infinity fabric. Windows confirms that this works by logging these errors in the event log as either detected or corrected. I dont know about other series, but I dont imagine they would have removed this feature in the 5000 series.

Yes! More o-scope!

Thanks for always providing real deep dives on tech!

Thank you for the in-depth dive into cause and effect!!

This is not a problem. The purpose of error correction is to correct errors. So the task can be finsihed. it is the user task to set stable settings.

I seen many people push to run 2166 on their DDR5 6200 / 6400 OC. I just gonna keep it at 2133, running it for 3 weeks now no weird instabilities. (btw really cool series with oscilloscope for voltage behaviors for these new platforms!)

This video feels like it will attract a lot of people and that's deserved. Very interesting deep dive on how the IF works. Absolutely great content !

Thank you for this video, it was very interesting and don't worry about you getting carried away with the video, it's really informative

Awesome content. Visualizes perfectly what most of us experience. My 7950X is about 1 step above this. Consistently scales in everything up to 2167, even at 6400 MT/s. If there are drop-outs, it's not enough to cancel out the gains. At 2200, I've never thrown an error or but scores, bandwidth and latency take a clear dive. Same behavior you're seeing at 2167. I haven't seen many people scale at 2200 and most that do have X3D chips for some reason. I still don't understand why there seems to be a hard cap of 2200 in most cases.

I think I'd rather find out that my OC is unstable when the benchmark score comes back low, than by finding out when programs don't open any more or other things get corrupted. Seems like a good system. Maybe there should be an option to turn off this error correction, I'm sure there is some benchmark that benefits.

Thanks for the video!

This is the kind of content I love you for :D

This is extremely interesting to see from the Ryzen side of things, would love to see a full writeup charting where there is instability and to what extent. I've documented some of this with RDNA2 and 3 myself, as well as Pascal and Alchemist. I do package engineering for Intel, and prototype testing is a good part of that now that we are nearing architecture refreshes. I deal mostly with the stuff between dies or between them and the socket, but my MS is in architecture design. I can't say what I've seen this sort of behavior on at work, but we have a similar "crawl state" behavior for some MCM devices as well. Of note in the public realm is Sapphire Rapids, where there are links between 4 dies and 4 HBM stacks that can potentially have massive transmission errors. Those are server chips, so slow is better than crashed, so the thing just tries again until it goes through.

you can notice this instability when you get inconsistent CPU benchmark scores too

now this is Actually Hardcore Overclocking - you've attached an oscilloscope to find the error limited performance sweet-spot on the frequency curve. Is there any options to expose these issues to the OS? - it would make sense to say "warning, performance exceeding limitations, errors detected"

Now that's a helluva video thumbnail!

Definitely really cool to see these errors on the scope!

Very interesting, thanks for this 👍

amazing content again :D

Messed up sleep schedule always provides best content AHO💯

i find it amazing, that despite the instability the cpu managed to pass all tests. for me that means for overclocks with evv i will have to do some things differently. more performance measurements for stability testing, instead of just throwing extreme workloads with validation checks on it. intersting video again.

Crazy how software tools are now no longer sufficient for overclocking.

This is awesome! Do Ryzen 3000 & 5000 display this same infinity fabric behavior?

Thank you for using oscilloscope! It is a great idea! 🎉

Hey buildzoid, are your ryzen 7000 timings still good after the latest bios?

You are awesome!

I thought the infinity fabric always did this (get some slow down before crash because it was doing some ecc in the background until you pushed it to far )

Thank you

What program can i use to stress test my mem for free? I'm crashing in a specific game after tunning it the way he showed in an earlier vid.

This reminds me of CPU-NB overclocking on phenom II. I had crappy msi motherboard where i could adjust CPU-NB clock in bios, but not voltage. So i pushed it to highest that was stable enough to boot windows. Even if with that it would run fine, but when i increased its voltage from program in windows, performance increased.

Can you look into an issue with dual ccd am5 chips failing avx2 when running single core multithreaded workload at completely stock settings. No pbo no CO or expo. I have had 3 chips fail avx2 fixed occt cpu stability benchmark now. Only way to get them slightly stable or delay the errors being thrown is to give the non vcache cores positive co.

I can't seem to get a stable FCLK above 1933 on my R7 7700x + B650M-HDV/M.2 (and high VSOC/VDD voltages). 2000 FCLK makes my cursor freeze/drop USB inputs every few seconds (checking with mousetester), and if I set FCLK>=2033 the system just refuses to post, with the DRAM and CPU post LEDs stuck on. This happens at any ram speed; I can run DDR5 6200mt/s on 1933 FCLK stable, but the clocks aren't synced 3:1, so weird latency issues occur. I don't know what the problem is between motherboard or CPU... Edit: I got a replacement 7700x and it happily runs at 2066 FCLK + 6200 memory, whereas the previous CPU had instability issues even above 1900 FCLK + 5600 memory. It's good to know that there's large variability between CPUs when it comes to the IO / infinity fabric / memory performance.

Can you give us a process to optimize the system you said memory clock then infinity fabric what about the main CPU clock

Is Ryzen Master power CPU / SOC Power more accurate than HWmonitor and Hwinfo? Same for Core activity.

Can the CPU be damaged from an unstable IF? I had what I thought was a stable memory OC with 1.25v on SOC, VDDQ, VDDIO ; 1.4v VDD and IF @ 2100mhz. It passed Linpack 4hr run and Y-cruncher for 4hrs. Buy after running a bunch of benchmark, like 3dmark and other similar programs, the system has become very unstable. Trying to run Prime95 results in an instant lock up. I reset CMOS and did memtest86. Memtest86 came back clean. Ran Prime95 for 8 hours on stock settings and everything was fine. But if I try to tweak the memory AT ALL the system is instantly unstable. System is x670e Aorus Xtreme, 7950X, 7900XTX, and Corsair dominator running Hynix A-die. Any advice? Could the CPU be damaged or the motherboard having issues? I'm still within the return window for the these parts, buy only for another week... honestly regretting going AMD at this point.

Well, since transmission error isn't the same as calculation error it makes sense that, when a successful retransmission is confirmed to have happened you should've just have performance penalty not necessarily instability, it would be extremely unstable if it didn't have some sort of error correction like retransmission, i would assume.

I had the impression Ryzen 3100 and 5800x does also the infinity error correction. And therefore you see less performance in benchmarks

Nice get the oscilloscope out for the lads

so for those who have slower ddr5 ram in our system, would running fclock around 2000 be possible on memory 4800 cl34? I'd prefer not to have to buy more ram if possible, and i remember in ryzen 5000 and 3000 the fclock overclocking really helped close the performance gap between expensive and budget ram.

Thanks

My R7 7800X3D ASUS ROG STRIX X670E-F / 1709 2X 16GB 6200MT/s 28-36-32-30 (tight subs) 2200 FCLK. 57.8 NS Aida64. PYPrime: 7.554 sec. VDD: 1.45v VDDQ/IO: 1.30v VSOC: 1.24v VDDG CCD: 1.050v VDDG IOD: 0.950v Linpack Xtreme 10GB 50 loops stress test: Avg: 405.28 GFlops. (Better than FCLK lower than 2200) Every pass is ~ 70.5 seconds. At FCLK 2233 system boots but that’s it, can barely move mouse and system resets within seconds. At FCLK 2200 apparently perfectly stable but totally useless at 2233 FCLK. I would have thought 2233 FCLK would have been at least “somewhat stable” but nope it’s a hard no go. Tried 3 different times just to be sure.

For the record, the OPS in FLOPS does stand for operations per second, so your first remark about it was right

Can anyone tell me what the takeaway is? What is the correct way to set everything up so the infinity fabric is stable and at peak performance?

With the latest Bios you can push up to 2200MHz on a lot of 7800X3Ds. Huge win for people that leverage cache intensive workloads.

I have experienced that you have to wiggle the mouse in an explorer window or on desktop, a cmd window doesn't have the same events

Very good tip if we need stability over anything. I'm tuning a DAW workstation where it is a thing. CPU is 7900X3D and memory 64GB of Hynix A-die. It is inside a pair of Corsair CMK64GX5M2B6000C40. It is a 6000mts module which is able to run at 6400mts. Mobo is Asrock PG x670e. I made the "easy overclock" and decided to partner it with lowering infinity fabric. At fabric 1800Mhz Passmark benchmark shows same 51000 as with fabric being 2100. I take even one of those stops is too much for audio workstation. So the retransmission is not registered by OS but action potentially stops? On top of copying buildzoid's "easy overclocking for hynix A-Die" I boosted memory voltages to 1.37 and VDD_MISC to 1.15. So Aida gives 67ns latency and 90GB memory write bandwidth. One reason to consider lower inifinity fabric is strange GPU artifacts at entering the desktop even Memtest86 passes. GPU is not in par with rest of the system but is old 2GB 1050. Another thing causing some work is mouse not being as responsive as with old 2600K system.

Neat!

Thx, awesome post. helped me to determine to really dial back from the speed since windows instantly crashes on 79503DX to estimated max fabric speed the CPU can properly run. For me it is just 1950Mhz that is for sure stable (silicon lottery lost, on this part of the chip) . 2100Mhz is instant crash in windows/windows won't even make it to boot. Will not return the CPU because on all other aspects it performs a bit better than expected boost clocks/memory timings and speed.

Interesting!

Nothing like struggling silently until death. Bravo AMD. Really is impressive how long it deals with it sometimes.

Does AM5/DDR5/7000 series/3d cache favor Windows 11 or windows 10 is still best?

AM3 motherboard goes up to 2600mgz on cpu northbridge also known as memory controller on cpu and known as Infinity Cache today. This is the speed of motherboard and cpu single and dual channel 😎

Is this the fix for AMD dip? I’m looking at going intel rn for higher lows

i wonder how's doing 1ccd cpu.

Then cezzane is still the king on this matter. It runs the fabric 2500 with no problem on mine

isnt a glitch in the infinity fabric basically what a stroke would be for a human?! sounds serious!, having a drop like that in the mix 😨

Can't get any performance improvements on a 7950X3D over 2033MHz, if set over 2067MHz the ram latency will be doubled in AIDA64 bench... (60->140ns+). Used to get stable on 2167MHz (~10% performance increased) on a 7600X, can't get posted if > 2167MHz. Silicon lottery.

This helps with what? Cpu oc limits?

I got a Ryzen 5 7600 build 3 days ago and been tinkering with the 2x16 5600MHz CL36 Kingston kit but can't seem to go past 5800 no matter what timings. It literally does 5800 with 28-37-37 1.4V stable with tighter timings than your easy hynix timings but blue screens at 6000 when doing anything. At 6000 it can be the loosest timings ever or CL30 + easy timings but somewhy stableness doesn't change. I get the exact same behaviour as you're getting on Infinity Fabric but it's running at 2100MHz for good measure. Is my 7600's mem controller just that bad, is this common? I don't have any other conclusions after all of this testing. Also idk if 1.25V soc voltage is too little for 6000 specifically, 1.2V works for anything at 5800.

I think I might be stable at 2200 but after watching your video I'm dubious. I have a 7900X3D and when running linpack I get no errors, my mouse doesn't lag or stutter at all and I get no WHEA errors or anything. My GFLOPS varies from 577 to 584.

This is damn cool to watch though.

Increasing Infinity cache alow you to tell the cpu the speed of you ram so all its core can access it.

You know a lot about this stuff so help a newbie out, will you? Yeah, it's a really novice question but frankly, I'm clueless despite my hours of research. For the i5 13600k processor, the officially supported DDR5 memory speed is 5600 MT/s which is equivalent to 5600 MHz (I THINK). I know full-well it can run faster memory speeds - 6000, 6400, 6600, maybe more - with a basic (XMP profile in BIOS) or fine-tuned manual overclock. I also know that with Intel, you want to prioritize speed and not CL. With that in mind, will native 5600 MHz D5 RAM provide any stability benefits with the 13600k over native 6000+ MHz RAM? Or is it best to get 6000+ MHz RAM and just immediately enable a basic XMP profile for the CPU? If it helps I plan on undervolting the 13600k too.

could I pay you to optimize my bios for gaming

mega interesting

So with Ryzen 8000G series seems like AMD is defaulting to FCLK to 2400Mhz, does this mean that with latest BIOS/UEFI updates we can run Infinity at 2400Mhz as opposed to previous defaults 2000Mhz on current 7000 series? This is conjunction with DDR5 running 6400Mt/s to 8000MT/s! Currently I am running FLCK @2100Mhz (can run tests @2166 but at times unstable) with DDR 6400 CL30 on a 7700 PBO+CO optimised giving me All-Core 5.25-5.3Ghz and Single-Core 5.5Ghz.

AMD is a PTSD monster

I wonder if AMD will update the IO die. DDR5 6000 is pretty slow

Higher the memory clock, the higher fabric clock gets equals more voltage for soc, then burn chips begin without users knowing

mine does that at 2000 even without running a test

Confirme please that in 30/06/2024 this is not the same limite right?!

Video from the future eh?

Does the same apply for Intel cache / uncore ? I'm at 4800 and have no clue how to test its' stability.

Is there a guide on how we can check this on our own overclocks to see this performance issue?

IF clock speeds shouldn't matter, its Bytes/clock bandwidth, latency and network topology, even if IF were to be 1GHZ and it could still power 100s of pcie 5 lanes and 10 GHZ ddr5 without sweat, if next gen IF has some genius topology like fujistsu A64FX it could kill all monolith designs..

Everything just tanks performance instead of crashing :( FCLK, clock stretching, VRAM....

So the 2033 recommendation still stands?

Pushing ryzen 7000's fabric to infinity?

Ive been at 2200 for about the last month or so with my ram at 6400 on my 7800x3d. Seems stable enough to me🤷🏻‍♂️ It seems to be the only setting that gives me the most performance. Going lower to like 2167/2133 etc actually gives me less performance. I lose read/write speeds in Aida64 with anything less than 2200. I've played through Jedi Survivor with no issues other than the game crashing because it's a buggy mess. The fact ive been running these settings with no apparent issues means i will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

I can't get 6200 stable with 4x 16GB Hynix-M. Is it worth continuing to try or is 6200 just not in the cards with 4 DIMMs?

Rather than error correction, could this be a bug in the driver layer where Infinity Fabric errors are not getting surfaced to the OS on 7000 series CPUs?

Is it even worth it to OC your infinity fabric if you only run your RAMs at 6000 MT/s?

7800x3d + 6000mhz ram What is stable and programs do not detect?

According to Wikipedia, FLOPS includes "per second", so saying "GigaFLOPS per second" is definitely redundant. I suppose an argument could be made that you were using the plural form of FLOP, thus FLOPs, but that's confusing, and we don't do that with other measures: "2 kilometres" -> "2 km", not "2 kms".

I currently try to get my 7800x3d stable with 2x32 6000 cl30. Everything is fine ... every Benchmark ... fine. Until I launch Battlefield 5. That causes hard resets, like literally power off and restart once expo is activated.

Ram speed should not go above the infinity cache or you will bottle neck your system and have crash issue

*its :)

Hello All

That's why i recommended everyone to upgrade their AM4 stuff instead of using AM5 boards... the first 1-2 gens in tech are always public bug tests.

AMD :)

1st?

This is pretty light on value. And not up to date with the r/overclocking discords knowledge on SOC overclocking I run 1966 on a 5600x Is it stable? No I get 1 CORRECTABLE WHEA every 4s running OCCT linpack I get increased performance in games and 7zip which is what I care about/tune for, and all the other tests I run whea service just cause, its not actually helping my performance, I just don't see the point in windows logging them on bootup I still get 3-7 wheas before the service kicks in, what is really strange is I can go days sometimes weaks of no wheas on bootup, not really sure if stability is actually changing or its just a windows thing, doesn't matter anyway Have not tried the stress test you mention What would be interesting is seeing what your scope picks up when boosting PLL voltage as setting that as high as you can while still being able to boot helps in stabilising SOC past 1900 on zen 3 I don't take credit for inventing this technique I found it on a gigabyte overclocking ppt guide for zen 2 But none else was using PPL to help stabilise SOC before I started talking about it Also of interest is how and why what I believe is optimal which is setting vsoc to a number (I use 1130mV) then going -80 to get iod -40 to get ccd then -40 to get vddp Again I don't take credit for this but in my testing -80 -40 -40 worked best at a range of SOC F and V but everyone knows soc voltage has a sweet spot - too high or too low and you get more errors None has said anything about this maybe with zen4 it has changed but I imagine setting vsoc to something crazy would actually cause errors like it did in zen3? Reading the comments here it seems something has changed with whea reporting? Not like the average bro is gonna be checking wheas anyway but hwinfo does report them Now I don't have a zen4 but I don't imagine that much has changed the whole exploding vsoc/voltage issue is a bit mind boggling considering how manging soc voltage is zen 101 Last year I was helping someone with a intel chip 12700 I think, and I'm pretty sure it was an ASUS board his IMC lost a channel he RMA'd it, I helped him set correct "SOC" values, but he was too lazy to fully manual the bios, and within a week it had burnt out the channel again he had already RMA'd the mobo and the ram seems like ASUS is just totally inept

AMDip? :kappa:

I think they've disabled it with later bios. Because I couldn't run 2133mhz before. Now I can run 2167mhz. Previously only 2067mhz was stable on my 7950x.

Stress test with what????! EFT?

If only we had a world where you could just try out every timing and instantly get feedback about stability and magically find the perfect settings for your RAM and CPU. Ihmahgihne. Right now OC'ing involves a ton of guesswork.