Justin you are not a historian and you are not a ballistic expert. In fact, the Country’s best ballistic and Forensic expert concluded based off of the evidence and all of the facts that the mob killed Joseph and Hyrum.

Yes he humbly admits he’s not a trained historian which is why he paid a trained historian to collect mounds of data and compiled the most extensive collection of historical data on the subject that has become a tremendous resource for many professional historians.

@@jerry_phillipsdo you agree with that paid historian, Don Bradley, that Jacob 2:30 is against polygamy?

@@justin-griffin I know Don’ Bradley’s position on Jacob 2:30 and I agree the God’s standard is monogamy. I don’t however agree with the Michelle Stone twisted interpretation. I believe occasionally God has commanded plural marriage.

@@jerry_phillipsdo you have any examples of God ever specifically giving someone a command to practice polygamy in the entire cannon of scriptures?

The spirit told me the same thing over 10 years ago. Joseph didn’t practice polygamy. It’s just in the past year I have read that Joseph preached against polygamy. Confirmed what the spirit told me years ago.

The lord didn’t tell you that as many who were there and lived the practice said they did and that they were married to him(I.e Eliza R Snow).

How do you know it was from the Lord this revelation of yours? Do you have the keys of revelation for the whole world? Does your revelation stand up to the many eyewitnesses who testified otherwise? Is your revelation in unity with the apostles, who must be received in order to receive Christ? ( John 17)

It was Satan's lying spirit!!!

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Great questions! To point 1, I do see how polygamy is tied to the core gospel principle of "what does an eternal family really look like" - and I think for many polygamous wives, it is not joyous. Wish we all had the answer to question 2!!!!

@@Esty120 hello pot calling the kettle black. Pride is such a hard thing for everyone to overcome and you are criticizing the scriptures. Jacob 2:27-30 gives clear instructions that God can command polygamy to raise up seed unto Him, other wise His people shall Hearken unto His command to be monogamous. The other explanations don’t seem to make sense of the use of the word “otherwise”, nor do they refer to the use of “these things” within context of Jacob 2:27-30. The church teaches that polygamy was commanded for a time and then it wasn’t. See Official Declaration 1 at the end of the D&C.

@@Esty120 there is no “loophole” because God does not make loopholes, He simply claims his right to command his people as He wills. That is not a “loophole” as if sneaky people needed a reason to be wicked. Keeping Gods commandments is always counted as righteousness. Like when Abraham sacrificed Isaac, and when Nephi killed Laban, and when Joseph Smith practiced polygamy.

@@Kaydubbbb If you do an analysis of the way the scripture is structured, it's not saying God will command his people to be polygamists. The previous example of "these things" is referring to the wicked practices the people are supposed to be avoiding. It can't just be flipped around in the middle of the sermon. Even Don Bradley, the church's paid historian, admits as much.

@@rowleskids if that is the case, Don Bradly is wrong. Please send the quote of his you are referencing. There are many ways to analyze Jacob 2:30. Here are a few: Every time the phrase “these things”is used it refers to something immediately preceding it that the author is referencing. Jacob uses it many times. 2:14,24;4:4,7,12,13 all show Jacob referencing statements which Jacob has just made and it is easy to tell what is being referenced because they are in the immediate vicinity preceding “ these things” or “this thing” in the literature. It is a similar pattern for every one of the uses of “these things”, or “this thing” In Jacob 2:27-30, Jacob is quoting the Lord, and “they shall Hearken unto these things” is a command by God that references the commands just stated in the immediate vicinity and on the same subject, and translated from the same Hebrew paragraph where Jacob starts it off by saying “ Hearken to the word of the Lord” and finishes the paragraph/chiasmus with “hearken unto these things” We can’t read verse 30 and ignore that the phrase “they shall Hearken unto these things” is a command and also stretch the reference clear back to verse 24, where the use of “ this thing” is not a command, and not even plural, and say that what “this thing” in verse 24 is referencing is the same “thing” as what “they shall Hearken unto these things” is referencing in verse 30. Clearly there are three more related commands more immediately preceding verse 30 than what is referenced in verse 24. They are: “This people shall keep my commandments”, “concubines he shall have none”, and “there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife” These commands are what is referenced by “they shall Hearken unto these things” in verse 30. The word “shall” and the words “shalt not” are always either commands, asking for a command to be given, or declarations of what God or someone will make happen, or what someone should do. For example “ Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell.” And “Wo unto them who commit whoredoms, for they shall be thrust down to hell.”, and “As soon as they hear of me, they shall obey me” and “Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all?” In the last case shall was used to frame the question meaning “what should they do?” Analysis should recognize that in verse 30, the words “ they shall Hearken unto these things” is a command, and on top of that, it is preceded by the word “otherwise”. Yes the word otherwise is related to Gods exception made just prior to it. One cannot simply ignore the word otherwise. It has a meaning and use in our language, some people change the meaning or ignore the word “ otherwise”, otherwise we would all agree that God reserved the right to direct His people differently than the three commands to be monogamous mentioned in verse 27. One cannot replace “shall”, the command with “will” or “might” or “would” in making interpretations of the scripture to mean people would fall away and hearken unto polygamy if they did not obey Gods commands. That doesn’t even make grammatical sense. Words have to mean what they say and grammar has to make sense. Polygamy is not an entity which can give a command to be hearkened unto. God is giving the command “they shall hearken unto these things” in verse 30. God commanding His people is not the same thing as people choosing to obey God. He respects agency. God does not say “ if they do not obey my commands, they shall become wicked” because God does not command people to be wicked. There are more ways to analyze this, but I think I’m out of room.

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One needs to finish the Statement by JACOB!

Probably polygamy was commanded when God commanded Lehi’s daughters to marry Ishmael’s married sons. See 1Nephi 7:1, and 16:7.

@@Kaydubbbb Never once does it say to marry multiple women. In the latter verse, it specifies single wives twice. Choosing a wife from among a group of women does not mean choose a group of women.

@@amybaker1880 please tell me the verse that specifies single wives? 1Nephi 7:1 says “sons should take daughters to wife”. 1Nephi 16:7 says Nephi’s brethren took of the daughters of Ishmael to wife. Ishmael was old and only had two sons who were already married when they started the trip. Who did Nephi’s sisters (2 Nephi 5:6) marry? Not Zoram, at least not monogamously. Who else was there for Nephi’s sisters to marry on the ten year exodus in their prime birthing years when the Lord had commanded Lehi’s people to raise up seed unto Him?

@@Kaydubbbb I notice you skipped "took one of the daughters" and "took the eldest" out of your quote. It's removing scripture to fit your desire. Who is your God? Mine says not to add or take away.

@@amybaker1880 I’m sure. Do you want me to post the entire chapters? Whole verses seems a bit much as well. Yes Zoram married the eldest daughter. That does not mean that Zoram did not also marry one of Ishmael’s granddaughters or Nephi’s sisters. That doesn’t mean that the Book of Mormon says anywhere that each son married only one daughter and any daughters of Lehi that outnumbered the unmarried sons of Ishmael (who were both already married before the exodus) remained barren and did not help “ raise up seed unto the Lord in the land of promise” The daughters of the prophet Lehi willing and able to have children but unable due to God neglecting to make an accommodation for them would truly be a tragedy. God did not do that. A prime directive of the exodus was to raise up seed. That commandment is more important than monogamy rules enforced by modern day Pharisees. My God is my Father in Heaven. His Son is the Lord Jesus Christ, the one who is in perfect unity with the Father, who commanded Lehi to allow all of his children to righteously fulfill the commandment in Genesis 1:28 by having daughters marry men who were already married when there was no other choice to raise up seed. My Lord commanded brothers in law of their widowed sisters in law to marry their brother’s widows in Deuteronomy 25:5. So that His believing daughters did not have to marry gentiles to survive. You left out 2 Samuel 12:8. Are being selective here? God Gave wives to David. The entire house of Israel came from a polygamist family. My God is the one who allows people to keep one of His most prime directives for Him by allowing outnumbered men at His will and direction, to marry more than one woman, for the sake of raising up seed and creating a nation. My God commands His people to fulfill His prophecies like Isaiah 60:22 “A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time” Nephi’s sisters weren’t waiting for a decade long journey, missing their prime reproductive years in the process, to be married to the natives once they showed up in the land of promise. They were the little ones who became a thousand, and the small ones who became a great nation. Just like Joseph Smith and all the early saints who righteously practiced polygamy. They all have thousands of descendants today. A great nation of people are here because of them.

That is why Jacob 2:27-30 makes so much sense. He reserves the right to command as he wills even when making it clear to Jacob that he was not commanding polygamy at that time.

It's an abomination unless the Lord commands the prophet to live it. He was to call others to live it also. There are 4 reasons found in D&C 132 why the Lord called Joseph to restore this commandment or principle. See video 1 or 2 in this series. It's a good video series! Oh and polygamy is good if the Lord commands it, not good if men just take wives without having the Lord's approval.

@janeaustin6382 Polygamy is never good, or in other words, God has never called for polygamy. 132 contradicts the rest of the standard works. I'm sure 132 was not a revelation from God and did not come through Joseph Smith. Also, were in all of scripture other than D&C 132 has God called for polygamy?

@@RonkerRoom most likely when Lehi allowed it so the extra daughters of Lehi and Ishmael (quite plausibly more in number than each other’s sons) could marry somebody in their group instead of whoever was living in the vicinity of Nahom. Do you really think that Lehi and Nephi experimented with unsanctioned polygamy in their group? God allowed it for Lehi and Ishmael’s daughters in IMHO. Jacob is Nephi’s brother, brother. They didn’t start “ Hearkening to polygamy” ( which phrase does not make any sense whatsoever, “hearken” is a command and the noun polygamy has no way to give a command) suddenly upon the death of Nephi, and Nephi would not have allowed it. God had to have allowed polygamy for it to have started with the very people who followed the liahona. I think they practiced polygamy on the trip in a very similar way to Deuteronomy 25:5.

@@Kaydubbbb I disagree, there is a lot of speculation in your comment. The Book of Mormon is clear on the fact that Polygamy was an abomination. There is no such thing as God sanctioned polygamy. The Book of Mormon is clear as to who started polygamy among the Nephites: Jacob 1:15 And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.

Because Brian Hales jumps through 100 hula hoops to try to make it work. Polygamy, especially as practiced by the LDS, couldn’t be from god

He's a medical doctor, not a credentialed historian.

@@bigfattrolllordcorrect, he’s an amateur historian.

So is Michelle and all the other people he criticizes and disparages. ​@@Heartsinmelody

@@Heartsinmelody He’s a paid apologist writing about church history. I guess that’s above amateur historian but closer to propagandist.

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Agree 100% big mistake.

@EthPilot -I think it’s an excellent comparison. Your qualifications to comment that it can’t be compared to Covid? Have you worked in hospitals over the last 10 years? (To compare cause and path of disease and of death before and after?) Are you an epidemiologist?

Wow, we had two deaths in our neighborhood alone from COVID. I guess data when it contradicts what you want to believe gets thrown out the door. Thanks for proving Scott’s point.

I appreciate that introduction, as it points out that he is not a historian and to take his points with that in mind.

He hired a credible historian to do the research. You need to listen more carefully.

@@davidrawlings1176 I have listened. Did you know that the professional historian he hired said in a podcast that he gave Brian Hales a ton of information both for and against polygamy and he cherry picked the ones that suited him and ignored the rest?

Hales is as much of an expert on polygamy as bill gates is on public health 😂

My third great grandmother was not committing adultery when she was a widow with an eighteen month old baby boy and she married a polygamist for religious reasons and cooperative survival. She did better than survive, she raised 4 more children on the frontier. Her people were evicted from the USA after the Calvinist pharisees of the 1840s (protestant Christians) created so much opposition which included all kinds of horrible unmentionable things done to the saints and their women which the calvinists had been committing for centuries to those who don’t comply to their beliefs. Unable to own land legally, unable to survive on her own on the frontier. Unable to own a business legally. Unable to live among the trinitarians of the time not believing in the trinity. These were restrictions put on her by the culture and circumstances of the time. Polygamy for her was merciful and from God. While surviving on the frontier she was happy for the doctrine of polygamy which created a way for her to live in a loving community of people who looked out for one another and treated her honorably as a fellow Christian who followed His command to practice polygamy in order to take care of one another. She raised 4 more children on the frontier. Sometimes living in a fort for protection, and later a mud hut. She taught her children the Ten Commandments. She taught them to love God and love their neighbors. She was a devout Christian, a loving mother, and a true saint. She feared God and not the teachings or culture of humankind. She did not limit what God could command. She even saw and heard Brigham Young take on the voice of the prophet Joseph Smith as he spoke to the saints after the martyrdom. When we meet her in the next life I would like to ask her about these things.Unfortunately if many do not repent of twisting Jacob 2:27-30, wresting the scriptures, they will not be able to meet her. 😊 Alma 13:20

@@Esty120 you should know that you just made my day. 😂😇 I may be a little too zealous, I love the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, and that He leads his apostles still today, and that He led them in Nephi’s time, Joseph Smith’s time, Brigham Young’s time, and Russel M. Nelson’s time. His apostles did what God asked them to do, they all made some mistakes, and still do, as humans. Still, we have to receive those who Christ has sent in order to receive Him. John chapter 15-17. Their job is to be United in the very same way that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are united. John 17:11. The restoration is true. God made a little one to become a thousand, and a small one a great nation! My poor little 3rd great grandmother has at least a thousand decendants. Her people are becoming a great “ nation” Isaiah 60:22. Best wishes for you. I’m happy to be what you describe as the most sanctimonious, and I hope you will some day see that as simply a diligent disciple of Christ and a member of His restored church. 😊😁😆☺️😊🙂

I have binge-listened to this series over two days. It is very well done. My impression as I listened to their descriptions of Joseph and Emma’s struggles was that this was their Abrahamic test. They passed the test and will have glory poured out upon them. It’s so sad that so many of the opposition are failing at the much lighter test of simply believing the prophets.

Oh my gosh, right?? When he said it was unfair because "men can do it, women can't" that was really telling. As if any Christian woman or man would be bummed because they don't "get" to do polygamy instead of faithfully cleave to their spouse. Such a sad perspective. On Michelle's podcast, he said, "I don't like polygamy. Let me just say that it's unfair - men can do it, women can't...but if we want to think that God is fair all we have to do is look around... We can criticize God but that isn't going to do us any good.” That is the kind of distorted image of God that the polygamy narrative helps shape. Ugh!!

@@karenhyatt647 Brigham Jr

yes, and Joseph was clear ( read the letter to the Relief Society ) for being insufficient in secrecy. The Temple oath is also clear on the secrecy issue.

Contemplate looking into all the evidence surrounding 132. Consider the problems and lies and false doctrines contained therein that contradict every other scripture.

A lot of research is a good thing! You should check into it. If it's wrong it's wrong. Truth is self evident and leaves many many clues. Don't be afraid. Truth is truth

Prove them lies don’t just state it like you did something important

That's exactly what I was gonna say🤣. These men need some attention from their wives. Seems they're not getting it at home. Meanwhile... I'm sending my daughters outside the church to date. I have raised clean, pure young women that I'm not going to encourage marriage in a religion that glorifies prostitution and calls it holy. Sacred se$× doesn't exist with multiple women in God's eyes. Brian Hales believes the church is in error and needs to bring polygamy back as well as these men here in scripture central.

kzfaq.info/get/bejne/Z72IeamKyZzRiHU.htmlsi=QnZTcoutmoUjzMwh @@TyleRMatin6532

@@TyleRMatin6532 watch 132 Problems with Mormon polygamy. The best compilation of evidence and proof polygamy is of the devil, no matter who is living it.

Exactly. It’s not even Hales work or ideas. They are Don Bradley’s. Hales just basically bankrolled it, put his name on it, and takes the credit for it.

Whoever decided to put that horrible music all throughout the episode should be fired! 😂

I wonder why the angel with the sword never appeared to Emma or any of the other women that Joseph was pursuing - wouldn't that have ended all debate/controversy?

I think we know the answer.

“Sword” must have been a typo, for “Word”.

Who instituted polygamy prior to Jacob who shut it down? Jacob the brother of Nephi shut down polygamy, but who instituted it? Do you think the first case of polygamy in the Book of Mormon was really the king who was after Nephi? More likely it was Lehi who allowed it so that the extra daughters of Ishmael, ( more than the sons of Lehi plus Zoram) and the extra daughters of Lehi (the two sons of Ishmael were married before Lehi’s exidus) could marry and raise up seed into the Lord. 1 Nephi 7:1

It sounds like you would deny the Holocaust of WW2 as well?

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Of shit

The kind cats bury in the litter box.

😂😂

Yes, clearly polygamy and concubinage was practiced in Bible times, but was it from God? Not at all it had become a cultural practice. Have you studied what covenant Abraham was making when he sent Sarai's handmade and the boy Ishmael away? It is everything! Once this covenant was made, Isacc followed too. Jacob was intending on following until he was coersed to have Leah first, etc. Eventually he made the same covenant and understood. All the House of Israel will be blessed by repentance when fully embracing the truth of a marriage covenant. Brigham and Heber thought they knew better than Joseph all from what they thought the Bible said. They obviously didn't take much head into listening to Joseph or reading the Book of Mormon. As we know Brigham says himself he was a yanky guesser. He didn't even know the Bible well at all. God will personally let each of us know if we are covenanted to Him. Please truly read the scriptures and pray.

Murder is also described in the Bible. Just because it’s described does not mean it’s prescribed or commanded by god

@Heartsinmelody Everything under the sun is described in the Bible and many things are not. I believe Jacob was the spiritual leader of Gods people. You could say Gods conduit/ prophet on earth during that time. It is impossible to write down the entirety of revelation given to just one person. He practiced polygamous to have his family. You can deny it but it is still true. I say God told him to multiply and replenish. He did. You presume to put limits on Gods actions because your ways and thoughts are not his. After we're dead we will learn many things God did that will change our view. History is not nice and neat. Tamar?

@@mascotbenches5146 right, but the fact remains Jacob 2 verse 30 is not a polygamy loop hole. It’s been misread to fit the narrative. D&C 132, sure, we have polygamy - but it’s not in the BOM. It’s an error of interpretation. Even Don Bradley now agrees.

Nice comments, so are a polygamist and a racist? Take off your polygamy lenses and read Jacob 2 again.

Haha that’s not what it says! How about get you a KJV dictionary to understand the usage of “shall”. Then in context see what is referenced as the “things”. Nobody in Smith’s time, either Mormon or not, read this to mean some kind of exception.

You don’t know the BOM - Jacob 2 does nothing but condemn polygamy. 2: 30 is not a loophole. The claim to polygamy rests with sec 132, the BOM is not a text that can be used.

⁠@@Dont-Be-Abi-Yussif I am amazed that people can misinterpret so far as to ignore the meaning of “otherwise” following God’s statement that He retains the right to command his people. The use of the word “otherwise” means that what He may command at His will is different than the command for them to “ hearken unto these things”and the fact that God is commanding His people to “ Hearken into these things” in reference to God’s commandments given in the same literary masterpiece in Jacob 2:27-30. It makes no sense to stretch the meaning of “these things” to extend beyond the immediate vicinity of where it is used in literature. People are even replacing the meaning of “shall” with the meanings of might, or may or would. However, in the context of the Lord speaking to Jacob, “they shall hearken unto these things” is a command to God’s people to be monogamous. People are trying to sidestep grammar and basic English, otherwise we would agree that God reserves the right to make commandments for the purpose of raising seed unto Himself. He states that purpose for Lehi’s family in 1 Nephi 7:1, just about the time He gave Lehi instructions to go get Ishmael. Do you think the sons of Ishmael and the daughters of Lehi, and the sons of Lehi plus Zoram matched up with the daughters of Ishmael perfectly? A small isolated group in the middle of nowhere with the command to raise up seed that very plausibly has more daughters than sons is enough of a reason for God to sanction polygamy to not have barren aunts who could have become righteous mothers in their healthiest child bearing years while traveling to the promised land for almost a decade. God’s intent was to grow a righteous nation in the promised land. Plurality of wives was sanctioned during the life of 1 Nephi, and no longer sanctioned after his little brother’s speech in Jacob 2 since they were past the necessity. Verse 34 even says that the same commandment given by Jacob, was given by Lehi. Lehi was inspired as he was told the exception, and Jacob was inspired as he was told that the exception was over. Best wishes sorting out the very plausible need for God to sanction polygamy in Lehi’s time

@@Kaydubbbb otherwise what? They shall hearken unto these things. What things? In the 19th century, every Mormon and non Mormon read this the same way. Polygamy was forbidden without exception. Hyrum Smith used this chapter to proclaim monogamy a perpetual principle. Where was any contemporary pushback of YOUR interpretation of “otherwise”? There wasn’t any whatsoever. Find me one single source other than Orson Pratt’s (which isn’t contemporary so it doesn’t count anyway). There are NUMEROUS critiques published about the Book of Mormon at the time by authors, lawyers, writers, etc. - all native speakers of 19th century English - and NONE of them interpreted there to be a loophole.