Reacting to Maximilian Dood's "LOOSE to TIGHT Fighting Game Tier List"

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2 жыл бұрын

A few days ago my Twitch chat and I watched Maximilian Dood's "The Ultimate LOOSE to TIGHT Fighting Game Tier List" and had some fun talking about some points he made! Here is my reaction to the tier list and some of my thoughts on how fighting games can be so flawed no matter how hard the developers tried
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Пікірлер: 130

@kdawg3484 2 жыл бұрын

Notably absent from the list: DNF Duel, the catalyst for this whole affair.

@ThatWolfArrow 2 жыл бұрын

Max actually talked about it on stream. He thinks the game is pretty tight despite the first impression he got from the over the top special moves.

@VerGiLL1 2 жыл бұрын

Because the game is not out yet ?

@Urakarenn 2 жыл бұрын

Max did talk about DNF on Twitch. DNF is tight game territory.

@xravia79 2 жыл бұрын

Uhhh it's not out yet lol

@NicelyWhypped 2 жыл бұрын

@@xravia79 but there have been 2 betas and its pretty unrealistic to imagine the game will be very different from how it played in the beta considering there was barely any changes to characters between the 2 betas

@HeavyShores 2 жыл бұрын

The reason why Mk is on the tighter side is because there’s only two play styles. You’re either in your opponents face or zoning.

@kaihimura3897 2 жыл бұрын

One day Max will use his power to bring back Instant Kills. We still out here supporting our boi. God speed, Kiz.

@scrappydrake4683 2 жыл бұрын

I feel like IKs would be a lot different because Strive stripped out a lot of their supporting infrastructure. There's no hellfire state and there's no stun gauge. And would you be able to IK them when they're stuck on the wall?

@kaihimura3897 2 жыл бұрын

@@scrappydrake4683 I was referencing the meme in which people blamed Max for getting IKs removed. This is the video I am talking about: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/pLJ1h6ifmbiUfKs.html

@WatarouDesiderus 2 жыл бұрын

Being a newbie to this genre its really interesting and different how discussions happen in this fandom. Usually everyone can disagree or agree but usually the conversation is added onto. I think I quite enjoy your discussions to most as they always feel fun but also worthwhile takes. Take a drink everytime loose is said though :D

@zanpakutoman4225 2 жыл бұрын

If you're new to fighting games then Loose vs Tight is definitely something you need to experience to understand. I didn't even realize how loose the games I was playing were, until I got my hands on more tight games. I definitely noticed it when I tried labbing for characters I liked in Street Fighter V. I think Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 (or, from what I've heard, Dungeon Fighter since it's made by the same people) is the newest really loose game you could get and hop online or just mess around in it (EDIT: Also Skullgirls). Street Fighter V would be a good tight game to compare, since it's also Capcom. But, most NRS games are also pretty tight and still good. Mortal Kombat 11 is probably the tightest, but even MK9, MKX, and the Injustice games are still kind of tight despite being more loose.

@m0002856 2 жыл бұрын

Fighting game communities are really unique I’ve found. Theres a lot of general respect for one another, more so than you typically find in other communities. Very little arguments between people. I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that so much of a fighting game is supported either with mathematical frame data or tons and tons of practical sets. It’s hard to argue with somebody who is wrong because it’s either subjective, or you show them proof and they just accept it. It’s hard to argue with “the frame data literally says you’re wrong” so you just hold the L and admit you didn’t look hard enough. And you can’t really argue with subjectivity. It’s an opinion. But I do also think the people who play fighting games accept the nature of holding the L more than other communities. It’s really hard to have an ego in the FGC and be liked. It’s also hard to have an ego when you’re not the literal best in the world. Even if you’re top 50 out of 50,000 people, you’ll still get bodied by the other 49 above you and humbled as a result.

@HawooAwoo 2 жыл бұрын

The way fighting games are designed they are very cooperative in how they are learned and figured out. Right from the moment you are looking up player created guides and resources to learn how to play a game/character you're learning to listen and respect the views of other people in the FGC. There's still a lot of toxicity and scrubby mindsets (especially on reddit), of course, but generally speaking it's relatively nice here. As for loose vs tight itself, I'd say a game being "loose" is primarily a good thing for casuals but a game being "tight" is better for intermediate players. The thing with "loose" isn't that it gives you more options, it's more that it gives you more choices to play in suboptimal and "incorrect" ways. To casual players this is great because everything is viable at that level and you have lots of options as a result. But once you start taking the game serious and start playing it at a higher level you begin to learnt that it's all just been an illusion of choice. All those 'options' you had before are now annoying jank that distracts and get in the way of the optimal way you want to be playing in. You end up having less control than you would like. A game being tight gives you less options on a casual level, yes , but at an intermediate level all it really does is strip away all the fake-options. It allows you to better focus on the type of optimal play you are aiming for and thus gives you a greater level of control.

@piranhaplant8483 2 жыл бұрын

1:08 is Heihachi talking about Kazuya

@TheSvmurai 2 жыл бұрын

It makes sense (most of the time) as to why I get my ass beat when playing a tight fighting game 😅 Looser games can get you in some BS that is very frustrating, but i also get that it leads to more interesting situations. That's why I like something that skews to more tighter gameplay, but is also fairly loose.

@dingo535 2 жыл бұрын

Love your videos here as well as on the Panda channel. We actually played together a few times in Gundam Extreme Versus Maxiboost on. Hope to see you continue the great work!

@microblast3700 2 жыл бұрын

Sf3 is hella tight because most of the cast barely has any combos

@SlickRick4EVER 2 жыл бұрын

So, let me go ahead on why you are right and why you are wrong: You are right in a way because it does not have that quick, super-jump feel with booming multiple combos like UMvC3 does alongside others. On the other hand, Third Strike has that opportunity to do whatever combos you feel like doing. There is no “strictness” of combos, much like 1st Gen. Mortal Kombat (MK3 - MK4). So, if anything, SF3 really belongs between Kinda Tight - Loose.

@mrCetus 2 жыл бұрын

I only really played Skullgirls to an okay level, so I might be misunderstanding the game, but I felt like, in a weird way, the freedom that you have with that game's combo system actually gave combos less variety. Because it's such a simple L > M > H > Special > Super chain, you'll basically turn every hit into the same route, just maybe with a different starter. Compare this to GG or BlazBlue, for instance, where universal gatlings exist but there's plenty of unique gatling routes per character, and I feel like in those games, you're actually forced to vary up your combos depending on the situation. I'm curious if anyone disagrees, just my observation

@chungboislim2061 2 жыл бұрын

Melee is a tier or 2 above every other fighting game. Kind of absurd to put it in third tier.

@sochifgc1493 2 жыл бұрын

Melee gives people carpal tunnel

@chungboislim2061 2 жыл бұрын

@@sochifgc1493 yup, that's why I bought the b0xx. Then I switched to 3rd Strike because Gen Z is unbearable.

@ronmexico7256 2 жыл бұрын

Like half the games are misplaced even by Max’s own criteria this is what happens when you rate games you don’t understand, which for Max is most of them

@ThatWolfArrow 2 жыл бұрын

As a melee player who broke their gamecube controller from playing melee for 7 years straight...no, Max is right. Melee is crazy, but it doesn't have any of the absurdly busted stuff you'd see in the tiers above it outside of a few niche cases.

@kotasake 2 жыл бұрын

@@sochifgc1493 all games can do that at hight level 😂

@phxhero 2 жыл бұрын

Bruh this is great! I’ve been wondering why content creators don’t collab more or react to each other’s videos. I actually super appreciate your opinion on this video and it’s really entertaining! Thank you man

@Kizzie_Kay 2 жыл бұрын

No problem

@ragnarosthefirelord8662 2 жыл бұрын

With season 2 coming, I'm hoping for better defensive system mechanics (maybe buffing YRC as Kizzie said it feels bad to use) and maybe 25 meter options to add more variety to neutral and conversion situations

@niceboy5559 2 жыл бұрын

This might be a werid change but I want more meter for blocking

@colekonstance59 2 жыл бұрын

@@niceboy5559 no you’re right. You should be rewarded for blocking successfully

@ShizuSan69 2 жыл бұрын

I’m ready for dank crazy shit to happen with only 25% meter used

@NeoBoneGirl 2 жыл бұрын

Adding 25 meter options is never gonna happen unless they cut the meter gain bc it's all balanced around 50 being the meter cutoff

@Hasan-qx4hi 2 жыл бұрын

Supported

@mackeym10 2 жыл бұрын

1:35 respect

@bionicallyacomputer292 2 жыл бұрын

0:00 ah oooh

@Time2GoHam1995 2 жыл бұрын

Happy Chaos is loose lmao… Edit: He said it during my video directly after I typed this lmaoo.

@theprincessandthefrogg Жыл бұрын

Not he editin out the smash games T_T. Good video tho🤘🏾

@bionicallyacomputer292 2 жыл бұрын

1:26 LMFAOOOOOOO

@bionicallyacomputer292 2 жыл бұрын

3:36 LMFAOOOO

@bionicallyacomputer292 2 жыл бұрын

5:52 fax LMFAOOOOOO

@TheTrueProdigy101 2 жыл бұрын

One of my favorite loose games is definitely Melty blood, the freedom in that game feels so good

@DANCERcow 2 жыл бұрын

Sleepy with the truth, Sol is loose and Anji is tight..... So basically this confirms Baiken doesn't peg Anji and he is a virtuous boi! Sol on the other hand, Aria taking Sol to pound town clearly with the information we've been given. Sol is a dirty boi! Sol is a power bottom and Anji doesn't get his bottom touched! Never judge a book by it's cover friends, because it could tell an opposite story!

@bqing87 2 жыл бұрын

Dailooseke for Season 2 got us.

@jhsrt985 2 жыл бұрын

Wasup my brotha

@honk1419 2 жыл бұрын

smash 4 really isnt that far from ultimate in terms of loose, that is unless you have literally not an iota of techskill or control over your character

@piranhaplant8483 2 жыл бұрын

Sm4sh honestly is pretty loose. It's got some cool footstool tech, and because of how dodging is, the game has a lot of natural 50/50 situations

@chrispo7610 2 жыл бұрын

@@piranhaplant8483 if by cool you mean 0 interaction infinites

@piranhaplant8483 2 жыл бұрын

@@chrispo7610 They were super hard to do plus they looked cool. Not all infinites are like wobbling

@milkywayflea404 2 жыл бұрын

Sm4sh isn't as tight as Max says it is, but it's still not that loose of a game. Unless we're talking about Bayonetta, she was too loose for her own good.

@dariusmiller2110 2 жыл бұрын

Sm4sh was wayy looser den ult

@battlericky17 2 жыл бұрын

0:24 as a recent grass toucher myself…JK lmao this is a great take. I liked his list tbh, those are the games that i play the most. Randomly, i really LOVE fight of gods despite how annoying it is to VS people

@Kizzie_Kay 2 жыл бұрын

Is that game worth playing?

@battlericky17 2 жыл бұрын

@@Kizzie_Kay on switch, for me its a no. I liked it alot but there is literally no online mode. I dont know if the ps4 version came with online but the combos are crazy as hell. The gameplay is amazing and for sure MEGA LOOSE. Its like a 1 on 1 fighting in MVC2. Great game but with no online the game stagnates FAST. Its usually on sale for super cheap, so thats when its at its most value. Also the team that made it seems to have abandoned it

@bionicallyacomputer292 2 жыл бұрын

11:20 oh wow

@TheReconer 2 жыл бұрын

What's that song at the end of the video?

@bionicallyacomputer292 2 жыл бұрын

6:50 fax tf

@heybro6302 2 жыл бұрын

Actually embaressing that people were in denial of this phrase like bro Tekken is always going to be playable because of the looseness it provides. No king main plays the same. It's the most freedom i can even remember having in ANY game let alone a fighting one.

@grantjames7504 2 жыл бұрын

Fix wall and let ky take off the clown mask fr and I’ll re dl the game

@Sora-GrandCross 2 жыл бұрын

since he didnt cover it in his list, where do you think the bb games go (even the one that shall not be named)

@IfWhatYes 2 жыл бұрын

Just barely tighter than gg (not strive) imo. Moves are not hitbox/hurtbox but have type invul so there's no fucky interactions like leo sweep lmao

@Skallva 2 жыл бұрын

@@IfWhatYes Funny you say that because imo GG has always felt like a tighter BB Stuff like Dust as a button, the heavy reliance on RCs for beefier conversions and how it discourages walking back make it feel a lot more controlled than BB's mechanics.

@IfWhatYes 2 жыл бұрын

@@Skallva they both feel the same to me, bb has way too many anime noises for me to enjoy it tho lmao. They'd be in the same tier I'm just saying gg has some real funny interactions that don't really exist the same way in bb

@SPplayer76 2 жыл бұрын

Surely someone here can tell me what this song featured throughout the video is.

@supernebula101 2 жыл бұрын

It's a remix of Cirno's theme from the Touhou series, not sure which remix though

@Theyungcity23 2 жыл бұрын

Hashtag Tightisright

@drstephenstrange897 6 ай бұрын

Tekken 7 because he lost every single match...Wathevs, but then I beat him 4 times in King Of Fighters 94....and then weird that he banned me.

@jonatanp.1976 2 жыл бұрын

I also believe that Blazblue CentralFiction is one of the loosest fighting games out there.

@Kizzie_Kay 2 жыл бұрын

Bb is pretty niceeee

@MagumoKawasaki 2 жыл бұрын

Justin use to hustle people with low tier characters in MVC2 because people only knew how to fight the high tier characters.

@Thanaroa 2 жыл бұрын

The mid point of this list still has the goats. Loose and above

@ShizuSan69 2 жыл бұрын

I’m here for trying to get guilty gear to be loose lol

@Screw064 2 жыл бұрын

I’ve probably played only a quarter of these games at least once throughout my life but seeing mk11 put on the pretty tight part tells me that anything under it is nothing but a guessing game when it comes to comp cuz mk11 almost doesn’t even have neutral n it’s predictable asl😭 it’s an attractive game but it’s not a top tier it’s just so easy

@NeoBoneGirl 2 жыл бұрын

I love hearing Max talk shit on Xrd because it means I get to bring up that one clip where he got washed by Slayer so hard he quit the game. He's just one guy so I can't expect him to know everything about every game but man does he have no idea what he's talking about with Xrd except remembering that people said "YRC bad" when Sign came out lmao

@ronmexico7256 2 жыл бұрын

He’s the Everyman!, the casuals hero what he lacks in fighting game knowledge he makes up for in entertainment value! Or so I’m told I don’t really get his appeal.

@SPACECOWBOY705 2 жыл бұрын

@@ronmexico7256 Oh wow you are such a hardcore fan... Here's a cookie

@ronmexico7256 2 жыл бұрын

@@SPACECOWBOY705 I’m not sure how you thought I was a fan based on my response.

@TubemastaC 2 жыл бұрын

Smash has to be the Loosest Fighting Game to ever exist

@TubemastaC 2 жыл бұрын

Ah nah. I just saw some of the game options in there… smash still the loosest but OP Grand Adventure is an elite game that’s loose af. Forced items

@LocalJanitor6 2 жыл бұрын

we normalizing "loose" now lol 😂

@IfWhatYes 2 жыл бұрын

Once they buff yrc and add 25 meter options strive will be just as loose as Xrd honestly. Unless people judge loose as every character needing to have busted oki or p > k again lmao

@Dunker401 2 жыл бұрын

I don’t see why we can’t have p>k sounds like a very inoffensive change that would make the game flow better

@IfWhatYes 2 жыл бұрын

@@Dunker401 there are like 7 reasons why you can't have p > k in strive lmao, mainly because of the abilty to go from p to sweep and how IB/delay cancels work in this game specifically. I need to make a video on this cause it's kinda hard to explain the whole thing

@IfWhatYes 2 жыл бұрын

@@Dunker401 basically the idea is that the game is balanced around minus frames, plus frame enders (ky 6k) are slower making mashing stronger than previous games, p > k makes fastest punish give hard knockdown close range oki. If a zato gets good enough he just 5p and mixes you to death off IBing 2 blockstrings

@mattb6616 2 жыл бұрын

@@IfWhatYes yeah if you give like. imagine gio with a p -> k chain. what the hell am i supposed to do about that

@MarkFudo 2 жыл бұрын

Depends of how busted is that 25 meter option, because is very hard for Strive to be as loose as a game with a 25 meter fullscreen timestop RC and RNG madness like Danger Time. Blitz shield/attack is more loose than yrc as a defensive mechanic as well because there's more more crazy interactions and risk/reward

@viniribr 2 жыл бұрын

HC on Strive is Super loose, you can do a backflip and still play 😂

@yami-kay9099 2 жыл бұрын

You know what games beautifully loose?? Power rangers BFTG.

@WhirlingSteel 2 жыл бұрын

Max is just salty that in Rev2 he always gets IK'd lol.

@PomadaGaming 2 жыл бұрын

Lol

@kanavi2 2 жыл бұрын

so, is footsies SFT or pretty tight?

@Underground3 2 жыл бұрын

SFT but it wasn't in the list

@heybro6302 2 жыл бұрын

if you gotta play footsies it's because you are setting up a move combo that would otherwise not work which is opposite of loose. Watching "G" from SFV gives literal depression. They all do the exact same things in the exact same scenarios because thats all the game allows. It's awful.

@tyrelljefferson771 2 жыл бұрын

There is no way in the universe strive is more tight than Tekken 7. I play both at a high level and even if I was drunk I wouldn't say that. I just think Max doesn't play Tekken much. Now if we talking unpatched, on launch, that's alittle different.

@WhensMahvel 2 жыл бұрын

CVS 2 is not loose at all lol 75 percent ofthe game is locked off to you the moment you lose roll cacel by choosing the wrong groove. Grapplers are legit garbage in that game can't do shit without RC You get beat the fuck up in that game if you can't RC Still a fun time when not playing against nothing but sagat blanka and (Claw Dictator cammy iori ) all the time

@bionicallyacomputer292 2 жыл бұрын

11:38 L

@bionicallyacomputer292 2 жыл бұрын

11:00 L

@reddragoner1932 2 жыл бұрын

Seconded

@evilded2 2 жыл бұрын

Well then I guess melee is one of the ‘loosest’ games out there.

@honk1419 2 жыл бұрын

yeah. ?

@loohole81 2 жыл бұрын

So Maximillian IS being more opinionated these days, good for him. Thought his channel wasn't for me but maybe?? Actually voicing opinions on video games especially fighting games is not a bad thing, at least it's better than clickbait vids. Reason I tune in here, Kizzie's thoughtful and smart vids on the genre, I prefer interesting than mindless.

@Dornpunzel Жыл бұрын

Why do black guys always talk like m orons? Like "yo like yo whats going on yoaa support yay support yaaayyy"

@javiderivia4224 2 жыл бұрын

Ngl this was stupid asf i mean the tierlist

@kotasake 2 жыл бұрын

Nah

@supernebula101 2 жыл бұрын

@TheMuffinMan73 2 жыл бұрын

Not gonna lie, after playing Thems Fightin Herds, I can't go back to Skullgirls. The combo system there is incredibly freeform, as in, you can basically do anything you want and shit's just gonna link, but it doesn't have the issue you mentioned of every conversion turning back into your same optimal route because of the way juggle decay works. The combo starter determines initial character gravity, and the angle/height/distance you hit them at will always change your follow-up moves, and every move will add its own amount of additional gravity per hit. TFH is a prime example of a combo system done right. It's incredibly easy to learn, is the most expressive system I've ever seen in a FG, and has the same robust Z-Engine foundation Skullgirls has. I wish more people would actually play the game instead of thinking it's just a meme. Feels as good or better than Strive tbh, and I'm almost 300 hours into that game.

@beaver_eater2447 2 жыл бұрын

This is exactly what we need to discuss about, the meaning of "lose" is very hard to tell and depends on the game combo structure Straight up, old school players rambling about give players more "freedom" when in fact restriction create creative and viraiety

@supernebula101 2 жыл бұрын

@@beaver_eater2447 I agree, and I wish Max was more specific with his definition, because even when he tried, I could only kind of understand what he meant. Does "loose" mean movement options? Options in character select (either roster size or something like Melty's moon system)? Combo variety? Because there's a big difference between the ceiling for theoretical combos and what's actually practical. I'm shocked that depth vs complexity didn't come up in any of these conversations. Something like 3rd Strike's parry system I'd call deep because it's a single option that creates constantly interesting decisions, whereas Marvel 2's assist system I'd call complexity: you have a lot of choices, but the actual choices don't really react with each other in the same way. My favorite games in terms of combo variety are, in fact, older games like +R, where there is an incredible amount of _stuff_ in the game, but you're limited depending on the situation. That creates more interesting situations in my opinion than getting a started and running the same muscle memory every round. Sorry for the long diatribe lol.

@beaver_eater2447 2 жыл бұрын

@@supernebula101 very well said, Lordknight has made a really good video (and Brian_F in the comments) about this topic: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/d-B9l6afv9yXmo0.html +R is probably my favorite fighting game ever made, it's really rewards you for situations awearness like no others game because how "limited" it was

@HawooAwoo 2 жыл бұрын

Shush, you're going to undermine the narrative if you keep pointing things like that out!