Red Dot Forum Camera Talk: Leica M11

Red Dot Forum Camera Talk: Leica M11 - A Closer Look

Рет қаралды 56,819

Күн бұрын

In our follow-up to our last Red Dot Forum Camera Talk, Leica experts David Farkas and Josh Lehrer will be delving deeper into the recently introduced Leica M11 digital rangefinder. In the last episode, they gave an overview of the camera and all its improvements. This time, they'll be sharing the results of in-depth testing and show how the M11 performs in a wide variety of scenarios and with varied lenses.
David had the chance to shoot with and review the camera. Check out his full written review loaded with real-world sample images here:
www.reddotforum.com/content/2...
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Feel free to hit us up with questions beforehand by emailing questions@reddotforum.com, or ask us live in the chat.
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Timestamps:
====================
0:00 - Starting Soon
5:21 - Introduction
7:23 - What is the M11?
13:45 - Setting up function buttons
18:13 - Will the lighter weight of the black M11 contribute to camera shake? Can the electronic shutter compensate for that? Any downside to electronic shutter?
21:15 - Is the finish on the black M11 the same as the Q-P?
21:46 - Does the M11 have highlight weighted metering like the SL2-S?
25:00 - How do you select info profiles under Capture Assistants?
27:47 - How do you turn on digital stabilization on Live View?
28:17 - Is the viewfinder patch on the M11 round corners versus square corners on others?
29:03 - Are we forced into using the matrix metering? I’m used to center-weighted metering.
29:54 - I found a good deal on a slightly used M10-R Black Paint, should I grab the M11 instead?
34:05 - How does the Visoflex 2 compare to other Leica EVF’s?
35:40 - What does an M camera do that an SL system cannot do before be discrete?
39:57 - Do you only get GPS info if you use the Leica Fotos App while shooting?
40:20 - Is there a way to customize the shortcuts in the Quick Menu?
41:02 - How large can you print a 60MP image to place in a room at your house?
43:50 - Does the new Leica Fotos cable work with the SL2?
44:28 - Can you adjust the intensity of the focus peaking highlight?
44:52 - Is there a way to customize file names or are you limited to only one initial letter?
45:35 - Triple Resolution Technology
59:02 - Is the M11 weatherproof?
59:10 - David’s M11 sample photos
1:09:35 - M10-R at 40MP vs M11 at 36MP
1:13:30 - Differences between operational performance between internal memory and SD card?
1:13:48 - Start up times/shutter lag
1:19:50 - Since you brought up the S3, can the M11 handle David’s famous one shot HDR?
1:22:50 - Josh’s cool item
1:26:50 - How is the battery life on the M11?
1:30:50 - Charging the M11
1:38:15 - Does the Visoflex 2 fit in the Arte di Mano EVF pouch?
1:39:24 - What is the biggest reason to buy an M11 over an M10-R for a first time Leica shooter?
1:45:29 - Any intel on when Adobe Raw profile for M11 will be released?
1:45:45 - Will the M11 Live View mode overheat the body?
1:47:38 - Embedded M11 profile on Lightroom/Adobe Camera Raw
1:48:20 - Using vintage lenses on the M11
1:51:55 - Can you snap pictures while charging the M11 by USB-C?
1:53:10 - Does the 1.4x eyepiece magnifier fit on the M11 with a thread adapter from the M10?
1:53:39 - Did we find out if the M11 works with the Dual Range?
1:53:53 - What is the slowest shutter speed you can dial in using the shutter speed dial, menu or remote control with the Leica Fotos App using bulb?
1:55:34 - If I order an M11 on Monday, what is the wait time?
1:57:52 - Can we tether with the M11?
1:58:06 - I have noticed more vignetting on the M11 using the 35 FLE than with the M10-R, is this a software thing?
1:59:15 - What is the minimum aperture you can use before degrading image quality?
2:01:31 - Is there any performance difference between an M11 and M10-R because of the difference in the sensor cover glass plate thickness?
2:03:46 - Is the build quality inferior on the lighter black version because of the aluminum top plate?
2:06:01 - Do you guys miss the baseplate?
2:09:10 - Signing off!
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Пікірлер: 88

@kajohnsontx 2 жыл бұрын

I finally had time to watch this 2 hour video after receiving my M11. I love the way everything you say is based your long history of knowledge and detailed tests to get the correct answers. Other video reviews on the M11are superficial and largely a waste of time even though they are shorter. Thanks again for all you do to give is accurate information and guidance for how to best use Leica cameras and lenses. I can go out and shoot with the guidance you give and not have to experiment---just get the shots I want and any given situation. The silver M11 rocks!

@swedesrus25 2 жыл бұрын

Being an M9 shooter for many years and loving the camera, I am ready to move up to a Leica that is better in low light. I watched all the Red Dot camera reviews - they are wonderfully informative - and luckily found a new, still in the box Leica M10 that I decided on after studying the M10P and M11. I am very happy with my decision and the camera is being shipped from the dealer tomorrow. Thank you! I already shoot with the 35 Summicron and will not shoot with anything else. Keep it simple. Well done! Enzo too!

@benjhaisch 2 жыл бұрын

Annnnnnd here for the rewatch

@RaviMistry 2 жыл бұрын

I am waiting for your video on m11 😃

@fbonde 2 жыл бұрын

Thank you guys so very much. Fantastic show as always.

@RedDotForum 2 жыл бұрын

Our pleasure!

@alexsorokin1896 2 жыл бұрын

I just want to say that the clarity tack sharp’ness of this footage is absolutely superb. All of your videos look and sound incredible; however, that first closeup was something else. Watching it on my living room tv and it’s never looked this good.

@RedDotForum 2 жыл бұрын

Wow, thank you! The video quality from the SL2-S and SL lenses continues to blow us away too!

@rumporridge1 2 жыл бұрын

@@RedDotForum I have the SL2 may have to add the SL2-S as well. The tandem maybe the best in the business.

@dorinakirilovakuneva4354 2 жыл бұрын

Bjy

@user-ex1fq6oz4p 2 жыл бұрын

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@JeffTapolci 2 жыл бұрын

Wow, those photos are awesome. I can't wait for my M11 to arrive.

@bernie0617 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks Guys ! so great to listen to you :) I already have the M11 (lucky me) and it is so much better to find out some tricks here than reading a manual :))

@RedDotForum 2 жыл бұрын

Great to hear!

@james-p 2 жыл бұрын

Superb!

@611sven 2 жыл бұрын

Thank you David and Josh for your interesting and honest („advantages“ of medium and small resolution thing ) “Closer Look”. I’m very impressed of the photos from David. Maybe I go for the M11 some time in the far future. Currently I use the M10R BP and I’m a „brass black paint guy” (at least M11P). So I will wait for some special editions in the future or may be an M11M. 😁 Thank You again for Your show. Look forward the see next editions. Regards from Germany Sven

@RedDotForum 2 жыл бұрын

The M10-R is extremely capable, and the black paint finish is gorgeous. Keep enjoying your camera and let's hope Leica comes out with a BP version sometime in the future.

@zairrewright4131 2 жыл бұрын

Can’t wait to pick one of these up

@perrymckenna2261 2 жыл бұрын

You guys are total geeks! But geeks with talent!

@RedDotForum 2 жыл бұрын

We'll take that as a compliment!

@mangoldm 2 жыл бұрын

1:24:15 such a beautiful M7! *Almost* makes me want to go back to shooting film.

@Hurlow78 2 жыл бұрын

Such a helpful and informative review- thanks! Quick question about something you said- that the M10M is better than the M11 for b&w by about 1.5-2 stops. I shoot mostly low iso black and white from a tripod. Do you think the m11 would be as-good for b&w in those situations (low iso)? Can only afford one- and deciding between the m10m and the m11 for low light b&w landscapes. Thanks again!

@colmflanagan5933 Жыл бұрын

Thank you for your informative shows. I’m a new M11 user. I know the M11 is not weather sealed but how anxious should I be shooting in the rain?

@TheLefse 2 жыл бұрын

What was, technically, the setup for measuring the shutter speed lag? I would love to do that on analogue M’s, though I suspect they’d all be the same… and thanks for another great episode!

@harveycohen6456 2 жыл бұрын

in your testing did you use the 35 FLE Lux and if so how much less detail was present in the images compared to the 35 APO?

@MrMilanina Жыл бұрын

Does new battery requires to be depleted first few charges? Any recommendations on it, please? I fully charged it through charger up to 100% before the first use, but not sure if I should follow some steps for the next few charges in order to properly "run in" the battery.

@RS-Amsterdam 2 жыл бұрын

Around 44:40 somebody asked about the intensity of the focus peaking and as a Leica shooter I totally understand that question cause with the other camera's that have focus peaking, like the Q, it is not that good. Other brands have better or even adjustable intensity focus peaking. You downplayed that question a bit but it is very legit !

@RedDotForum 2 жыл бұрын

Neither of us are fans of focus peaking and just don't use the feature. Given the clarity of the EVF and stabilized 100% focus assist, dialing in precise focus is usually easier and more accurate without peaking enabled.

@RS-Amsterdam 2 жыл бұрын

@@RedDotForum But you two are not the only users in the world. I teach people to use focus peaking with non rangefinder camera's to get acquainted with manual focussing before they make the step to an M camera. People nowadays are used to auto focus and are afraid to make the step to rangefinder camera's .

@DelusionalNYC 2 жыл бұрын

@@RS-Amsterdam they already said they don't like the focus peaking functionality on the Leica M11 and recommend against using it so what else do you want them to do?

@RS-Amsterdam 2 жыл бұрын

@@DelusionalNYC Think a bit further beyond their self-righteousness.

@sc1 2 жыл бұрын

Can you please explain the framelines selector lever on the front? What does it do? When and why to use it?

@robcowle7288 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks guys for this second review. Having tried the M11 for a couple of weeks the only bad point I've found is the EVF. Try focusing (even with a 75mm+ lens, wide open), the highlighting will appear on many edges at quite different distances. Look at where you are focusing and change the focus and you'll see a "large" range where the EVF is telling you the focus is OK. It's pretty useless IMO.

@RedDotForum 2 жыл бұрын

We're not fans of focus peaking. Given the high resolution of the EVF (or LCD) and stabilized 100% focus assist, you can dial in much more accurate focus without peaking enabled. Turn off peaking and see for yourself.

@robcowle7288 2 жыл бұрын

@@RedDotForum Thanks, I'll give that a go. The EVF for the M 240 still seems to provide the best in terms of focus peaking, when that shimmered you knew you were spot on :)

@ameygharse1374 Жыл бұрын

Hello, I am going to be picking the M11 with Summicron 50mm f2 (not APO), is this older lens compatible with the new m11? Thanks!

@marcybeaucoup Жыл бұрын

Just re-watched this for at least the 3rd time and I get some new info each time. I am taking my M11 to Paris for a month. What is the ideal memory card/s - and do I need more than one?

@rma2354 2 жыл бұрын

Can non-app lenses like 0.95 50mm,1.25 75mm, 1.5 90mm get the full resolution from 6mp sensors?

@ziggy149 2 жыл бұрын

Love Josh's absolute annoyance at the print size question. It's understandable since it's not really about the camera. David and Josh are such a great balance.

@andrewgardelle516 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for another great discussion! Would you see Leica maybe bringing the new user interface to the m10s?

@RedDotForum 2 жыл бұрын

We'd like to see the new menu UI as well. Leica has already said there would be an M10 firmware update in March to add Visoflex 2 compatibility. It'll be interesting to see if any other improvements are rolled into the update.

@marlon.iraheta 2 жыл бұрын

It’s a beautiful camera, this is definitely their flagship. But I here so many issues going on. Is there a future video discussing the bugs. My m11 is working great except from freezing one or two times while shooting. I’ve updated to the newest firmware (1.4 )and it still happens. Does it have a faulty chipboard. ?

@ndt7692 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks as always for the informative and entertaining content. Apologies if I missed this but, upon testing an M11 at the LA Leica store - the focus aid / magnification area moved to the lower right corner of the screen every time I lifted the camera to my eye to focus using live view. I realized this was inadvertently caused by my hand touching the lower right corner of the touch screen. Is there a way to disable the touch function of the screen? I didn’t see it in the menu but … Many thanks!

@archanavishwakarma5703 2 жыл бұрын

@MKWHD 2 жыл бұрын

I have a question about the battery charger. I have the SL2 and now the m11 and I wonder about the indicator lights. When the batteries has been charged to 80% the orange light lets you know. Even if I charge the batteries all night the orange light is still on. How do you know when the batteries are 100% filled?

@RedDotForum 2 жыл бұрын

The orange light will stay on once the battery hits 80%, but the green light will continue to flash as it continues to charge. Once at 100%, both the orange and green lights will be solidly illuminated.

@MKWHD 2 жыл бұрын

@@RedDotForum Very good. Thank you! Keep up the good work.

@jackjross 2 жыл бұрын

My wife says you guys talk too damn fast lol! I thought the playback was adjusted on accident but to my surprise it was standard. My wife is never wrong.

@loganhasson 2 жыл бұрын

Great chat! Two questions: how's the auto white balance accuracy compared to the M10-R? And I know this might be hard to answer before we have full Adobe support, but how do the colors look compared to the M10-R (which seem to be pretty universally loved)? Thanks!

@RedDotForum 2 жыл бұрын

The AWB isn't as good in daylight as the M10-R with the current firmware. It tends to be a little too cool. Yet, the AWB is remarkably accurate in artificial light, perhaps more so than the M10-R. I expect the AWB algorithms to be tweaked in firmware. Colors in LR look great, provided you fix the WB and use one of the more generic Adobe profiles instead of the embedded M11 profile. Again, we expect this to improve dramatically in the near future with further updates from Adobe.

@loganhasson 2 жыл бұрын

@@RedDotForum thanks!!

@marcusnz232 Жыл бұрын

I would be interested to know what grade of aluminium Leica used for the construction of the top plate.

@rp-kc6sk 2 жыл бұрын

Hi. Can the m11 be charged by an iPhone or iPad?

@daduke3058 11 ай бұрын

What difference in colors do you see coming out of the M11 vs M10R? An experienced photographer I follow much prefers M10R to M11.

@perfectly_boring 2 жыл бұрын

Last week I bought the M10-R black paint (brand new) because I thought Leica wouldn't be able to ship the M11 for a long time, but that doesn't seem to be the case (it's all in stock here). Should I return the M10-R BP for a full refund and get the M11 instead? I come from an M9, and the biggest draw I see of the M11 over the M10-R is the improved battery life.

@tamererdem743 2 жыл бұрын

Apparently it is an awesome camera, It has more megapixels, more success at high iso and better dynamic range, but in my opinion pixel peeping is contrary to the Leica M mentality. After high megapixel and well corrected Nikon FF cameras and lenses, when I got the M240 and couple of Leica and Zeiss lenses, I started to look the whole story of the frame instead of zoom in. An I believe that's the trick of Leica M cameras. Focussing the end result rather than the details...

@Channel_Yo 4 ай бұрын

What's the current status of software bugs and freezes with the M11 and M11p?

@ricotan6757 Жыл бұрын

Does the brass m11 balance better with heavier lenses like the noctilux and 90mm lux than the black m11?

@RedDotForum Жыл бұрын

Perhaps slightly. But an even better approach would be to use the hand grip and/or the thumb support. These accessories used individually, or together, will have a far greater impact on balancing larger lenses.

@wilde4418 3 ай бұрын

U are talking about ‘hyper focal’ press photography

@iamjedduh 2 жыл бұрын

I wish Leica made the m11 grip attachment an L bracket too so that portrait shooting on a tripod would be easier to

@benoitpiret9065 2 жыл бұрын

I see a lot of people complaining about the 60mp not needed. What they don’t realize is Leica decided to partner with Sony so they could bring the best sensor in the industry to their customers. The IMX sensor. The thing is there aren’t many versions…. It’s either the IMX551 or IMX455 (61mp) sensor or the IMX410 (24mp) which is probably what the SL2-S has. The 30mp and 49pm IMX are stacked sensors so probably not for the M… In the end they decided to go for the 61mp as 24mp would be a downgrade from a M10R. Yet they still decided to add pixel binding to allow 36mo and 18mp for those who didn’t want to deal with the 60mp size etc. I think they went totally out of their way to provide the best solution for the M11. It’s remarkable…. anyway…. I think it’s great

@benoitpiret9065 2 жыл бұрын

So really going with Sony’s best sensor they had only 2 choices beside stacked sensors. Either go with 24mp or 61mp…… So they picked 61mp and yet said “we’ll still make it work for those who prefer lower res” without compromise. BRILLIANT in my opinion

@Biosynchro 2 жыл бұрын

The M11 seems to challenge medium format. I wouldn't want to be an S3 owner right now. OTOH, the S4 is going to be spectacular. So will the SL3.

@allena3430 2 жыл бұрын

Was this live stream filmed with the Leica SL2-s? Any tips to have such a sharp output? I'm guessing it is with a prime lens and aperture around 5.6-8? Would love to know! Really enjoyed the video!

@RedDotForum 2 жыл бұрын

Yes it was! We use two SL2-S cameras in our studio shooting at 4K30. For lenses, we're using the Vario-Elmarit-SL 24-90mm for wide shots and the APO-Vario-Elmarit-SL 90-280mm for close ups. The cameras are set to ISO 1600 so that we can stop down to f/8 for greater DOF.

@allena3430 2 жыл бұрын

@@RedDotForum Amazing! Are those shot on the straight out of camera profile or L-log or HLG? I have an Sl2-s still working out to use it in video. Many thanks for the data!

@RedDotForum 2 жыл бұрын

Footage is shot in L-Log 10-bit and sent over HDMI to a Blackmagic DeckLink Quad HDMI Recorder 4K capture card. In our streaming software (OBS Studio), we apply the Leica Classic LUT and basic color grade. One of the most critical points is to make sure you do a custom graycard WB with a colorchecker target under the studio lights.

@allena3430 2 жыл бұрын

@@RedDotForum Awesome! Thank you for the tips! Will give this a shot and up the quality of streaming! 😆 Many thanks!

@allena3430 2 жыл бұрын

@@RedDotForum I have another question. How do you guys have the ability to record 2.5 hours of footage with the SL2S without the battery dying? Is there a power adapter or vmount or special power applied to keep it recording for hours?

@benoitpiret9065 2 жыл бұрын

Great video as usual. I wonder what default sharpening you recommend/apply in Lightroom on the LDNG

@RedDotForum 2 жыл бұрын

For all of my M11 testing, I used the following sharpening settings: Amount - 70 Radius - 0.8 Detail - 40 Masking - 0 The files could probably take more sharpening, but I erred on the conservative side.

@TheLDunn1 2 жыл бұрын

I knew the recent M's 'estimate' the aperture that a shot was taken at. I didn't know 'how' it was doing it. So I found the description around 34:00 interesting, thank you. However, as it seems so 'hit & miss' I am really not sure why Leica have bothered to implement such a system - as noted in the video, it can be spot on, or +/- 3 stops in its estimate....seems kind of pointless when its so unreliable. I'm not sure its the 'best' engineering solution that could be implemented, even given that it's got to function with 60+ year old lenses. I'm a product development Engineer myself with 30+ years experience with a global OEM, & a solution I could see potentially being better would be to have a very small sensor & lens (think phones) built into the top of the M body just above the lens & pointing down onto the lens so the camera could 'see' the aperture ring of various lenses. There would then be two options, either use optical character recognition to determine the number set on the aperture ring, OR alternatively, have a database of images on board the camera containing every M-lens at every aperture setting & do an image lookup-match to determine which lens & which aperture is set....oh, & that would also mean you don't need 6 bit coding too. They could also add a feature in the camera where the customer could 'teach' the camera new lenses not already in its database - for example, someone with a Zeiss ZM lens could attach the lens, put the camera into 'learn' mode & take a series of shots (with the tiny camera that looks down onto the lens) of the lens at its different aperture settings & save them to the name/aperture of the lens. It may require an IR illuminator so the camera can 'see/read' the lens in the dark, so over come that issue. This seems to me to be a potentially more reliable means of determining the aperture than the "I'm going to guess based upon the taking exposure if I have & the general ambient light measurement I have" approach.

@vinnnyn32 Жыл бұрын

Low light color - M11 vs SL2-S???

@dans.8198 2 жыл бұрын

@49:00 - There is no way to improve dynamic range with pixel binning, as all pixels have the same DR and you cannot get back what was never captured by the sensor. You can only improve per-pixel noise because it affects single pixels more or less randomly (i.e. differently), but just because you are trading spatial resolution for lower noise. The multi-resolution feature has only one purpose: reduce file size for people who don’t care about high resolution (and crop-ability) and do complain about storage space and computing power for postprocessing. However, if you can afford the camera, you can probably afford also a new SSD drive and a better computer running more advanced algorithms than the ones in-camera.

@benoitpiret9065 2 жыл бұрын

I was surprised (comparing the Q2 and M11+28mm Summicron) to see how much sharper the Q2 files are OOC RAW (at any aperture). Is it because of the 60mp needing a lot more sharpening? the Q2 MTF doesnt look that much better though. Or is it the Q2 applying sharpening in camera (on RAW). OR could it be that the Q2 has no lowpass filter?

@oorcinus 2 жыл бұрын

Those startup times are still piss poor compared to pretty much any brand out there, apart from cheap low-end mirrorless models. Even the Nikon Zfc is a second or less from off to first frame. Even if M11 is not significantly slower than old Ms, it should be getting better, not worse. Everything else is great, though!

@benjhaisch 2 жыл бұрын

1:22:15 was the most impressive thing so far 🤯

@RedDotForum 2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, highlight recovery is pretty amazing on the M11.

@carlosmcse 8 ай бұрын

Not brass on the black M is nasty. Brass and black paint is the way to go.

@thehowlingterror Жыл бұрын

Over 2 hours long 😁

@ponthayanuwat 2 жыл бұрын

M11 cannot detect 35/2mm APO M lens?

@fbonde 2 жыл бұрын

Yes it can. At least on my M11

@RedDotForum 2 жыл бұрын

The M11 does recognize the 6-bit code of the 35 APO. Most of our testing so far with the M11 has been with that lens.

@peterivarsson9267 2 жыл бұрын

Honestly please cut the starting in sequence

@karimnasser9226 2 жыл бұрын

Those images at 10,000 ISO are not impressive at all, they are noisier than they should be. High MP images do increase noise because there is more detail, and generally speaking high MP sensors have a higher SNR. I won't mentioned other brands but my 24MP camera at 12,800 ISO shows a much much cleaner image than that M11's at 10,000 ISO. Does my 24MP show more detail at super large prints, no, but up to 13x19 prints you can't tell the difference. And the more I see these promotional videos about Leica cameras the less I am inclined to own one. I think Leica is ahead in certain less important technologies but way behind on important ones. The more I hear "Monster" or "Crazy" when the image clearly shows weakness the less I trust these reviews. Thanks for the upload though.