Melvyn Bragg In Conversation With Peter Forshaw, Valery Rees & Jonathan Sawday discussing Renaissance obsession with Magic. First broadcast: Thursday 17 June 2004
Пікірлер: 53
@inventsable7 жыл бұрын
So refreshing to hear enthusiastic and well-versed (not to mention qualified) voices on this subject! Really enjoyed this
@peterfreeman6677 Жыл бұрын
This is on the 'In Our Time' channel, but theirs is the shortened version (from the evening repeat) and is only 27 minutes long. The one here will have a lot of material cut from the evening broadcast.
@JEKAZOL10 жыл бұрын
Thanks for making this... Very interesting to hear a BBC filtered review of this subject.
@bestversion81594 жыл бұрын
actually it's BBC produced
@jimnewcombe7584 Жыл бұрын
@@bestversion8159 Presumably that's what they meant.
@xmaseveeve52593 ай бұрын
'They'? @@jimnewcombe7584
@aryehfinklestein90416 жыл бұрын
Excellent discussion...thankyou.
@rexrod769210 жыл бұрын
Terence McKenna did a piece called Alchemy and the Hermetic Tradition, that touches down on Hermes Trismegistus.
@martin363698 жыл бұрын
Magick exists in the orthodoxy, as "The Quantum Observer Effect" in Quantum Theory & Mind-Body Interactionism in Philosophy
@DrGreen-qx1lq5 жыл бұрын
You are in idiot
@viciouslady13408 жыл бұрын
This was fabulous
@Landrew0 Жыл бұрын
The other channel had been taken down. This one will probably follow.
@InfiniteHumanProductions8 жыл бұрын
I read that Marsilio Ficino designed the marseille Tarot deck? Which deck is the closet to the one he designed?
@christopherbell45433 жыл бұрын
I really like your for this video, would you please tell me where you found it?
@InfiniteHumanProductions8 жыл бұрын
Very interesting! I am interested in doing a documentary on this.Any tips?
@anthonyarcanumsanctumregnu95515 жыл бұрын
I'm a little late but they are all over the place, also did you ever do one
@AK-ef4jp5 жыл бұрын
Who is the Medici translator who was asked to stop work on the Greek translations and pick this one up.
@AgathaVelvet3 жыл бұрын
It was Marsilio Ficino.
@stavz777 Жыл бұрын
Thoth.... Hermes came after in Greek translation...the Greek version. Thoth might not of even come from Egypt, but of the Levant. ?
@Rocker1ACDC Жыл бұрын
Leviathan? Lemurian?
@erichhunterph.d.1988 жыл бұрын
Interesting, but talk about missing the point. These scholars are a great example of how you can't really understand a subject unless you have participated in it. They try to reason that the motivation for doing magic was for non magical purposes (e.g. getting power, getting money, etc) rather than doing it for the sake of gnosis, or to cause magical effects to happen. The basic assumption of these scholars is the materialist view that magic is not real. Ha. They are very much poorer for their materialist viewpoint. They got part of the skeleton and a maybe some of the flesh of the subject, but they did not capture the whole organism, or the spirit of the thing. This illustrates the problem of not taking the past at face value. They project there assumption that magic is rubbish and for charlatans onto what was happening in the past and therefore can't make sense of it. Guess what people, in the renaissance Dee, Ficino, Fludd, etc. actually thought that magic did something. It wasn't just a way for them to manipulate the courts, or have justification to do science. They believed in the reality of magic.
@kurremkarmerruk87188 жыл бұрын
+Erich Hunter Ph.D. Didn't they acknowledge that by explicating on the point that Ficino et al thought of themselves as magi, and that the knowledge they were acquiring was not theoretical but active? I thought they touched on pretty much every possible motivation for doing magic, including gnosis, theosophy, alchemy and restoration, as well as the more cynical reasons. Of course they added to this their own biographical and historical scepticism, but that doesn't detract from the analysis and is quite welcome as it broadens out the discourse. I thought they were pretty thorough, especially considering the time constraints. What more could they have done?
@erichhunterph.d.1988 жыл бұрын
Hi Jonathan, Thanks for the comment. Cool that you actually read what I wrote. Thank you. I guess I may have been overly critical. I am glad they presented this info. and I guess they did the best they could under the limits of what they could accept viz a vi their world view. They just seemed lost trying to impose their modern materialist viewpoint on the topic. The idea that these guys were frauds doing it for their advantage was too cynical and far fetched. A lot of good it did them, lol. The more I have researched this, the more I have learned that the primary motivation was most likely religious for Ficino and Agrippa at least. Trying to show a way to understand God's laws etc. They ended up on the losing side of the argument. The church didn't want them doing it because it undermined there authority and scientists didn't like it because they were trying to get freedom to do science by divorcing themselves from the church (hence the Cartesian materialist spiritualist duality that plagues modern thinking. As an aside, calling what they were doing as magic in the Renaissance is sort of a stretch. Some sort of Gnosis yes, but certainly not magic in the way it is historically conceived, which would be healing, fortune telling, various spells, herbalism and for the educated astrology and alchemy.
@QED_8 жыл бұрын
+Erich Hunter Ph.D. What about Ioan Culianu's perspective on the neo-platonic nature of Renaissance magic (?) Have you got an opinion on that (?) Its psychological and sexual sophistication is pretty compelling in its way . . .
@erichhunterph.d.1988 жыл бұрын
No I don't but thanks for bringing this up. Not sure if this is related, but people practicing magic at that time did not have great ways of achieving higher states of consciousness, e.g. mescaline, DMT, etc. were not really available, so sex and magic ceremonies may have been a driving force for Renn. magic in a quest to achieve altered states that can be obtained during rituals.
@strictlyeducationalmagick7 жыл бұрын
Hermes was High when he wrote the Bible in Phonecian, it was so trippin, they had to create a knew language to cover it up. It goes with a couple other binds you'll see in Gen 1:1 AT H'SMIM VAT H'ARTz Book the spirits to call on and book the ARTz knowledge of holy plants. Both writings of Solomon (Sun and moon). This dude so bad he got Christians Praying to him and Hating him all at once. That's God.
@koc50007 жыл бұрын
Very interesting topic, but a disappointing and unstructured discussionn. Feels like jumping from one thing to another without a clear feeling of what you actually want to discuss and what you are getting at.
@tristanhurley90717 жыл бұрын
koc5000 agreed
@JEKAZOL4 жыл бұрын
Talk about renaissance magic for 40 minutes and no one brings up "Does it work?"
@bestversion81594 жыл бұрын
we can safely assume that it doesn't work because it's.....magic
@MrTeenStyle4 жыл бұрын
@@bestversion8159magic is just as real as love. do you believe in love?
@SiamHossain74 жыл бұрын
@@MrTeenStyle Love can be tied down to certain chemical reactions occuring in the brain as a result of certain factors/criteria being met. I don't think magic can be tied down to anything other than chance and luck, chance and luck being something woven into the fabric of the universe itself owing from the nature of matter at the quantum level itself. Magic is just a lazy explanation of a phenomenon without taking an actual look into why that phenomenon occurs.
@jeremywilliams34653 жыл бұрын
Science and Magic are rooted in one another
@TheEvolver311 Жыл бұрын
@@jeremywilliams3465 lol no
@crimesagainsthumanity20595 жыл бұрын
These idiots lost me at Plato being a "Christian" philosopher. Plato was a Pagan philosopher and one of the wisest men of his time. Christians are the opposite of wise. Also Paganism is not ireligious. Paganism is simply ancient religion that Christians tried to wipe out.
@boneman5384 жыл бұрын
Original retroductive thought by Pythagoras & Plato too was an acknowledgement of the 1 : phi present in the as above, so below of nature. It was never about the negation of soul/divine intelligence ... only a debate over the solar mythos present in dogma/the Christ (plus all of the interplay w Horus & Osiris & Vishnu & Noah etc) vs. the other ideologies.
@SiamHossain74 жыл бұрын
@悲哀G.o7 All people value those things regardless of religion, atheists as well. Those aren't exclusively Christian ideals; Christian ideals are built off those.
@jeremywilliams34653 жыл бұрын
Correction Christainity transformed Pagen thought death and rebirth, Restoration and Transformation
@jeremywilliams34653 жыл бұрын
Also just saying didn't the Roman Pagens try to kill out Christainity and failed, lost Rome and all the west?
@RK-dk5vt6 ай бұрын
Eeeeeh but Platonism dovetails with christianity very well and therefore lent itself to be picked up by christian thinkers and used to deepen christian beliefs, notably by for example Augustine. Greek (platonic) philosophy is arguably there at the foundation of christian texts, take for example the gospel of John. These "idiots" are, I presume, much more learned and well-read on these subjects than you are (were: it's been four years since your comment). Don't be so quick to dismiss them.