Low efficiency speaker with high power amplification..................the high dynamics experienced to be the " perceived reality " for some people is in fact like the punches of a boxer........for them that are the dynamics. Just the same with those tube amplifiers where you can switch between UL and triode mode ..........many like the triode mode on vocal and small ensemble music but their preference goes to the UL modeperceievd as more dynamic and lively ...............what they don not understand or know that they are only compensating for the lazy loudspeaker that needs a kick in the butt...... When the triode amplifier is working with high efficiency spreakers then we understand and hear that the dynamics are fully correct.......even some very good transistor amplifiers in REAL class A were subject to that criticism of being to "gentle "...............untill one couples them with a horn system or another high sensitivity speaker , than ALL falls in place....
@EduardBroekman Жыл бұрын
Hey Frank. Thank you for the thought inspiring comments (UL-triode, with respect to speakers). I know it could well be that my preference for push pull is partly because to get single ended dynamics up to a high level perhaps requires a much more over dimensioned power supply. It's good to know where we come from so, how we got somewhere, what is possible (from people who got there).. so there's perspective. I currently use two 6S19P as pass regulators (so 200ohm Rp), followed by an LC filter (40H/30uf) for each stage.. after a single ended first stage and transformer for phase splitting, the end stage (only) is push pull with a rectifier tube as common cathode resistor, avoiding having to chase after expensive caps and resistors... if they ever manage to sound better than a tube dropping voltage. The resulting sound I get is far from typical of push/pull and even imaging which I totally don't care for is nearing single ended... so it's probably ok optimised for what it is, but I still may have the equivalent of a UL vs trriode-mode in amp methodology :) Now, even with 96dB+ efficient speakers (and 110dB CDs) , it's still not a live instrument in dynamics but at a distance it's getting convincing for quite a lot of instruments. Part of this working is not amp related at all, but having an omni-directional speaker (Audiophiliac review one recently with similar impressions), using mono and corner loading, having a large room, low BR tuning (20Hz) ... this is all an interplay between compatible or hopefully synergising components. I'm finding it's certainly not one 'magic' thing. On a different note, you once mentioned the old philips alnico widebands, those 800ohm models, what kind of enclosure worked best that you've heard so far? I'm wanting to replace my Adam nearfields with them and put a small tube amp together for it, so it's a more musical than analytical oriented setup ... and have a no-crossover setup as well.
@frankgeeraerts6243 Жыл бұрын
@@EduardBroekman Hello Eduard , these are designed for open ( no load or less ass possible ...... stiff surrounds ( petits plis ) ........So in a baffle with open back or open baffle , even with a voight pipe these may work fine ..............these speaker really have a nice sound and their high impedance is a cake for tube amplifiers? OPT with lower windings and smaller power ( are mostly better )...........and also OTL coupling over a quality capacitor. The Aikido from John Broskie may be an option....... Well you did some work and experience on the power supplies...........it never ends experimenting but that's the way to choose and stirr away from commecial economical imposed restraints. I like a lot choke input........but as allways only the results count. Even lesser performance systems can touch the soul when they preserve the essential musical substance, it seems like listening further away but still real to get into a mood to forget it's reproduced performance. A hot summer day I was outside the house, the window was open and people stopped to ask who was playing the piano............gives a smile . nothing is as rckognizable as reproduced music nut ..........hahaha. A friend living in an appartment had his neighbor ringing on the door , she asked where her daughter could learn to play the guitar as beautifull as he did ....He has two monoblocs 2A3 i build for him , a AN customized preamp and AN speakers....... So the pleasure must be the music and the passion the way /road you choose to explore 😃
@gerihifi Жыл бұрын
Hi Frank, it is always a pleasure to read your insights (50% I understand)! It would pretty interesting to make an podcast with Janos, like SnakeOilAudio is doing. Thanks!!
@EduardBroekman Жыл бұрын
@@frankgeeraerts6243Thank you. Such lovely feedback on your builds must be like music itself. Really, we should measure audio component quality in meters until the illusion breaks, it would be a much better metric than thd for accuracy in playback! Since I often listen while moving around or even in an adjacent room, I started optimising this year for a balanced room sound and the primary measure is whether it fills the space like a performance would do. That and mono playback has had quite a bit of influence of how good it sounds outside. On the coupling of the Philips alnico units, I do have Lundahl 2774 in SE and amorphous PP form which can be wired as 13.6:4 or 13.6:2, so those both are nice lower winding options for this project.
@frankgeeraerts6243 Жыл бұрын
@@EduardBroekman Hello Eduard , I often turn my back to a system ......and listen without seeing it .. Then something what is realy revealing is when you are in an other room...........and something is happening overthere........Music or not ! When it attracts you to go over to listen in the room where the music is reproduced , you do it with a smile because you know it's GOOD ! I notice you are realy on the path of passion and it's good to share that.......it feels better to give someone a present than to receive one........at least for some of us. The amorphous LL OPT's are a very GOOD INVESTMENT ! .........there will be NO way going back after experiencing the difference with the past now obsolete technology of silicium steel OPT with 0;3 mm plates...........the only excuse for the older OPT is financial.... BUT they will also be less forgiving to the circuit you will marry them !............in fact they will be the guideline to follow to musical succes.... And the lower Primary/secundary windings ratio will optimize and diminish the limitations of transformers..............besides amplifiers , even solid state like a kind of inductive load.....experiences were made long ago by the audiophile community in France..( with Jean Hiraga and other skilled electronic technicians ) High impedance, high sensitivity, almost no boxsound or BR ...and tubes make a happy married couple .......... They like to SING together in harmony .....
@peterborelli3877 Жыл бұрын
You are right about the timbral accuracy and the energizing of the room. Here are two experiences that I had which confirm that which you are saying. I bought my Cube Audio F8 Neo Nenuphar Mini about 2 years ago. My purchasing them was influenced by Peter Breuninger's very positive review of them. About a year and a half ago, my daughter and her husband came to visit me. He is a professional bass fiddle player. I played some very well recorded tracks featuring the bass fiddle and asked him his opinion. He said that it sounded like a real bass fiddle. I said, "But wouldn't a real bass fiddle sound bigger than what we are hearing here?" He answered, "No, it would sound exactly like this. As a matter of fact, the only thing that keeps me from thinking that there is a bass fiddle here is that I am not hearing the acoustics of this room. I am hearing the acoustics of the room in which the music was recorded." That was when I was using the first version of the F8 Neo drivers. My amp was the Bakoon Amp 13R and my DAC was the Chord Dave with the Chord Upscaler. Now I am using the F8 Neo Version 2 drivers, the Enleum Amp 23R and the Holo May Level 3 Kitsune DAC (still using the Chord Upscaler). A neighbor of mine is a music professor. His instrument is the piano and he performs in concerts. I had been asking him to come and hear my system for a long time but he was avoiding it. Finally he told me that he was reluctant to come because the piano is very difficult to record well and he was afraid that I might be offended if he found my system to be lacking. I assured him that I wanted his honest opinion and that I would not be offended in any way. I would learn from it. So finally he came. I played well recorded music featuring the piano. He was VERY surprised and impressed with the sound that he heard. He sat there listening to track after track with a big smile on his face. He said that the timbres were perfect and that he heard things that he only heard when he was playing the piano. He explained to us what the pianists were doing with the pedals. I also played other music for him... from intimate ensembles to large scale works and at one point he said, "When you go to concerts you must be a little disappointed with what you hear." And that opened up a discussion about room acoustics. He loved everything he heard and at the end was reluctant to leave. Can there be better testimony as to the quality of reproduction than that of actual musicians?
@seebo63 Жыл бұрын
I've never thought that bass extension could rape or violet someone ;-} . Great , unique KZfaq channel , no BS , direct . I'm a big fan of SET amp ( 71A ) & single driver speakers. .
@realworldaudio Жыл бұрын
Thank you Sebo! Indeed, that's not the usual way to talk about bass... I had a very bad accident 20 years ago that I barely survived, and since I'm extremely aware of what happens to my body. It's the small signals we all get but learned to ignore because there are no immediate repercussions. In my case, I had to be fully aware of these minute bodily signals to survive and recover. Since, I have healed, but and the acuteness of this perception never left me. It also comes up as a warning sign when bass is off... that something is being done to my body that's hurting it... When people go to loud concerts, and next day they are wasted, it's not just the booze. A big part of it is the excessive, distorted sound.... the booze just kicks it up one notch, and makes recovery much harder.
@seebo63 Жыл бұрын
@@realworldaudio "When people go to loud concerts, and next day they are wasted, it's not just the booze. A big part of it is the excessive, distorted sound" Totally .That's why I prefer the Blue Note club ambience :- )
@realworldaudio Жыл бұрын
@@seebo63 Thumbs up for Blue Note ! 👍 ;
@frankgeeraerts6243 Жыл бұрын
@@realworldaudio Music and natural sounds are medecine or healing........or other sounds can be the inverse and harm you , your body and your soul.
@philvale5724 Жыл бұрын
Hi, Very interesting video, I was looking at the speakers a few months ago before I replace mine they do sound amazing. Phil from the moulin France
@realworldaudio Жыл бұрын
Salut Phil, thank you for the feedback! ; Janos
@rickg8015 Жыл бұрын
The first time I read about the “Holodeck” analogy is in Lynn Olson’s website..
@realworldaudio Жыл бұрын
Indeed! I'm glad you mentioned Lynn Olson... he had / has such a great role in sharing knowledge with the DIY community. He is one of the pillars of DIY audio ; )./
@rickg8015 Жыл бұрын
@@realworldaudio He used to live in Hawaii too I think.. He’s more of a “iron rich” PP DHT zero nfb guy, vs SET.. His MTM speaker designs were quite famous back in the late 90’s. I wonder what he ended up with in his Altec/GPA journey for the last 15 years.. He was set on JMLC mid horns afaik..
@earkivaren Жыл бұрын
Hi Janos. Even though I would LOVE a couple of Cube Audio drivers, they are somewhat too expensive for me, so I've been looking at alternatives for my future VP build (your measurements). Is there any specific parameter of the FR driver than one has to pay special attention to, when choosing a driver for a VP? As an example, I've been thinking about using the 8" Alnico driver (SFR-200A) from Sonido. It has about the same VAS and BL, lower impedance, higher sensitivity, but X-mas is only 1.8 mm?? Any guidance would be much appreciated :) Thanks as always for your channel! Claus
@realworldaudio Жыл бұрын
Hi Claus, the SFR-200A would be a PERFECT match for my Voigt pipe cabinet. It was the driver I was seriously considering to buy, when CA contacted me and gave me the Fc8. No worries about the 1.8mm Xmax, the FE204 had only 1.5mm Xmax, and I did not have volume issues with it. This Sonido is the closest match to the FE204 that I used (and that is unavailable anymore), and also it is a big step up & built in the classic Telefunken style (paper cone, same a Telefunken used! & alnico magnet). It is totally ABSURD how cheap that Sonido driver is. It is perhaps the only example of the best of the best classic technology at an affordable price. Compared to the CA drivers, it will not have as wide frequency extension, but it has higher efficiency. You will get good response down to 30Hz with it though, while the CA-Fc8 gets to 25Hz.... (when using my VP cabinet).
@earkivaren Жыл бұрын
@@realworldaudio Hi Janos. Excellent news. I was a bit worried about the Xmas, but if the FE204 only had 1.5 mm, then the SFR-200A will surely not have a problem in your VP. And very reassuring to hear that you also considered the driver :)) I'm not too worried about the missing bass extension for now. The VP will be such a gigantic step up in sound reproduction compared to my current system, that it will be years before I start wondering about the possibility of even deeper and maybe better bass extension :) Thanks as always! Claus
@klausnielsen7102 Жыл бұрын
No way around the microphone ! that’s just a fact and accurate low frequency is reserved for the ultra expensive studio mic.. Please do an episode on this topic and present some of the different microphones and tecnics used in recordings. High efficiency bass/sub is hard/expensive and the size just blows up like crazy. My horn sub-system is app 104 db efficient and still has to use the corners/room to get there. Most audiophiles hearing my system for the first time are usually a little disappointed cause you can’t actually hear high quality (low distortion) bass. The typical 10 kW long excursion compact woofers have very high distortion and a sound character that most listers associate with, let’s call I sub-bass…
@EduardBroekman Жыл бұрын
For some indeed distortion and enclosure/room resonance has become the desired sound. And it's not limited to this... And hey..luckily corners help hide the size very nicely :)
@realworldaudio Жыл бұрын
I think a lot of the perception of bass (as high quality) is very skewed today, as we are so used to overcompressed / overblown deep bass. Bass appears to have much higher energy content when seriously compressed (because it actually does have higher total energy due to compression). It does not reflect natural scenarios though, but everyone will agree it's more bass and will be chosen as preference, except by those who are used to listening to uncompressed bass, and hence, recognize the dynamic and textural definition that the uncompressed (and as such, seemingly lacking in energy) natural bass has. Indeed, one issue for complication is that microphones are not good at picking up deep & subsonic bass, yet, a lot of that really deep frequencies is what defines the concert hall acoustic experience and it clearly comes through a large number of recordings. Also, I think that in those cases the microphones still record at those low frequencies, just lower in level... and I think that is also audible in the recordings, that the subLF is there, but at a much lower level than in a concert hall. With electronic music there's no such limitation, as the sub LF is not going through the lossy microphone... and as a consequence, modern songs with subLF on them can be just absolutely total mind-bending experiences. It does not come through on my system with efficient low bass as high energy destructive waves, but as subliminal signals turned conscious - the reality seems altered, air seems to have a different density, difficulty to breathe, tactile feelings inside the bones / muscles / interior organs.... some sort of absolutely otherwordly experience, that is at first a gentle nudge, but after 3-4 such songs it's starting to take over your life and mind... Listening to music with heavy sub-bass for 3-4 times a week left me in a complete state of addiction / withrawal. Just thinking back about the music experience at work left me incapable to concentrate on anything for the next half hour... it's enough to hear the song on a cell phone to trigger that state. Like some sort of extremely bad heavy drug addiction... Hence, I really avoid going there.... no more than 2-3 modern songs with heavy subsonics at a time, and then 3-4 months avoiding that experience entirely....
@asadabbasmirza95196 ай бұрын
Which is better ? 8 inch or 10 inch ? Cube audio....
@MrTeff9993 ай бұрын
The answer is what you probably expect. Both will give good midrange. The 8” will give you better highs. The 10” will give you better lows. The cabinet for the 10” will need a larger cabinet.
@Iam-mad Жыл бұрын
Would it not be common sense to use a binaural head as microphone for exactly this purpose, to give an impression of a System in some room via YT, where 90% of the viewers use headphones?
@nicktube3904 Жыл бұрын
Janos, What is your roomsize and ceiling height?
@realworldaudio Жыл бұрын
Hi Nick, the height is roughly 2.5m, and approx 4m x 6m.