This is the greatest 🤣😂

In a weird way, that IS how the law should treat those questions.

Kind of depressing that the authorities from the literal dark ages were less interested in persecuting somebody for being gender non-conforming than modern day politicians and public figures in the UK and US are, though.

@@nilesbutler8638 But also, no, because It's no one's business about what the Rev was doing either ;)

@@douglasboyle6544 Thats why "in a weird way"....

... Wellllll, maybe not in some circles! 😂 ; )

I want to know why those two!

Suggested reading- Terry Pratchet’s ‘Night Watch’. I’m amazed after watching this video that his idea was based in history.

if you actually read about the connection it's extremely dark. I wouldn't want to glorify that.

​@@nosuchthingasshould4175 I'm not, it just reconfirms that all of his most interesting / weirdest stuff is based in Roundworld history. Always fascinating to find the real origins of one more facet of Discworld though.

I know! She's just everything I want when watching educational videos

… everything I’d want … “when watching educational videos.’’ An interesting compliment. Just subscribed. 🧢🐬Every woman … every man … every song … is everything I could want … for life.” Kunkel . Bad prose and good thoughts for you and the fellow commenters.

Wouldn't it be cool to see her and Simon Roper do a colab?

I totally agree!!

@@randybugger3006 Wow, I've been thinking this ever since I found this channel! I even thought about commenting it, but I wondered if I was alone in that thought.

As an archaeologist this got me really excited before I remembered where skeletons are before we die and decompose

Metal plate on the skull.

Glad to know I’m not the only person who thought of that!

"No, don't do that" :)

And then get cremated...

How about this: the vast majority of people don't know you exist now, let alone a few years after your death,

I'll just have to burn down the temple of Artemis to get my name in the history books instead!

We all die twice; once when our lives end, and then when our name is said for the last time.

If humans still exist

@@gordon1545 ouch. my heart....

That is a good point, though in some circumstances you can. Like, if there is many a mention of a man having sex with other men and showing absolutely no interest in women, we can most likely say that person was gay

Also, historians often use modern terms to describe historical things. Many governments had no sense of democracy or autocracy, but we still refer to them as such because the description fits so well

I would agree with this except people use this mentality to say inane things such as "racism/sexism didn't exist because they didn't know what the concept was/didn't have a term for it" For how many you see an issue not grasping this, there are even more that take this concept to the point of excusing human rights violations. Not to mention trans people are trans no matter the label. There are people who deadass will say some gay people can't be proven to be gay because they didn't have the term or concept despite the person in question being a man who married or slept with a man. Or for example that "first female" doctor who people insist was a woman despite them and their friends throughout their life saying "I'm a man" and wanting no one to examine their body after their death and their own doctor referring to them as a man. People will still insist on trans people not being allowed to call him trans because "we can't be sure". Or the many examples of queer history where the person admits to being gay in letters or diaries literally being redacted and edited, destroyed or kept secret by biological family. And when it then is uncovered people will insist that the redacted version is the true version. Our modern basic core beliefs of some people are trans and some people are gay and being a jerk is bad and hey mixed races existed as a concept, literally do fit into history according to remnants and testimony from the very eras we discuss but bigoted people prefer to ignore that and gatekeep history so i'd be careful with your worldview of "Rooting for similarities or chastizing for differences through our modern lens is incredibly reductive to the actual history." because it's often used as a tool against minorities to justify bigotry when it comes to even recent history of 10 years ago There are deadass people who say "people didn't know blackface was bad in 2010, it was a different time, we knew less then, don't push your modern view onto history" as if minstrel shows weren't created in the fricking 1800's and as if the civil rights movement wasn't fecking 50 years before that.

@@ThirrinDiamond I agree with your point entirely. I see it so often in reference to what seem to be clear-cut examples of trans people from the past. The idea that they couldn't possibly be trans because that specific means of categorization did not exist at the time ignores the underlying fact that there were people in history who lived as a gender other than the one assigned to them. Maybe it's fair that you can't say - for example - that Elagabalus was a trans woman because the term itself didn't exist at the time, but read this excerpt from the Wikipedia article and tell me that their choice to use he/him pronouns for Elagabalus doesn't clash with the historical record: "Dio says Elagabalus delighted in being called Hierocles's mistress, wife, and queen. The emperor reportedly wore makeup and wigs, preferred to be called a lady and not a lord, and supposedly offered vast sums to any physician who could provide him with a vagina." As this video mentions, few records were kept of queer people. But it's also worth noting that some later cultures actively suppressed and destroyed those few records that did exist because they clashed with their own cultural norms.

@@GALL0WSHUM0R 😤😤😤🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌💯💯💯💯💯💯 omfg thats not even up for debaaatteee 😭😭😭😭 how much more clear cut does it have to be before people respect trans people

Those interested in the places where the official record doesn’t match the actual evidence in history ought to look into archaeology. You can learn a lot about people when you dig through their garbage. And sometimes an object is the only record a person ever existed.

Right now?? Lol. Certain demographics have known this as long as formalized police forces have existed

​@@maddieb.4282strange how it's suddenly a modern problem when white people have to start reckoning with it.

Yeah, it feels accurate - I think we're too worried nowadays when it comes to labelling - we're pushing for extremely precise labels and I don't really think that's healthy. It creates too many in-groups and 'others'. Genderqueer and queer seem to be great catch-alls for the wide spectrums of sexuality and gender identity.

@@beckstheimpatient4135 I don’t know that specific labels are a problem on their own- I have friends that use them and while I don’t anymore they’ve been helpful to me in the past- but this drive to push everything into those labels definitely is. They can be used in a healthy way, but the second people start pushing others into them it’s gotten frustrating

That term is about 8 years old! "In the past" indeed. 😂 Gender non-conforming people have always existed because people tend to object to stereotypes about their behaviour being imposed on them because of their sex. I'd wager most people are gender non-conforming, but don't deny their sex.

@@LH-kr4od It’s been used since 90s, which is before I was born so it’s the past enough for me

@@L_Aster the 1990s rather than the 1390s though.

😱 Surely not !🙄

Yeah, that quote is going to stick with me for a while.

This is sickening. Gender is your religion, this is downright worship. Yes, they were like you. And? A person struggling with sin. This isn't new.. people have been struggling with degeneracy forever. So because someone in the past had sin problems, that makes it ok to do today? Explain the logic?

@@AR15andGODyou don’t think you’re sinning by writing this comment? Condemning, anger, judgment, etc.

@@AR15andGODalso I encourage you to comment more on queer focused channels. Maybe you’ll discover why you’re compelled to watch so much queer content if it keeps getting suggested to you and you expose yourself to it more lol. It’s okay little egg ❤

More likely it was oral sex for some of the men that didn't know.

Yeah this seems highly likely. But at the same time, in doing so, there's perhaps an understanding of these sex roles being so close with gender that they feel as though their gender moves with them. Perhaps it's just my own interpretation but I felt like they changed clothes and personas according to the client. But who knows.

Yes, I'm sure they were talking purely about what went where. Modern historians interpreting mediaeval records through the lens of present-day notions of "gender identity" are engaging in the most preposterous anachronisms and thereby failing quite spectacularly at their job.

That is really cool! But I imagine sad in parts.

Are any of these records digitised?

Not really. She is trying to shoehorn an account of mediaeval events into a peculiarly 21st-century narrative of "gender identity", which is terribly anachronistic. In short, it is bad history.

I was logging on to suggest the same thing. In fact, I think this is quite probable. One popular medical term for the condition is ovotesticular syndrome. However, that term is limited in its description, and only refers to the reproductive organs, and not the other traits that have a strong correlation with nominal gender. The genetic control over those traits is spread across at least seven of the 23 chromosome pairs, so misalignments and other combinatorial occurrences suggest that maybe even our currently popular notion that there is a gender spectrum isn't quite right. It's really a bit more scrambled than that, in terms of the possibilities. The data on this topic is very coarse, since it doesn't fit within any of our standard birth reporting records or testing. The Wikipedia article suggests that the incident rate may be as high as 5% of all live human births, but that is probably somebody's wild guess. We do know that it is common practice in the U.S. is to hush it up, and offer the parents a selection choice, and then do another operation to make it so ASAP. So there are very few individuals with this condition who make it to adulthood unscarred. But, some do, and one has to suspect that in earlier times things were quite interesting and difficult. There is a blatant statement in the Wikipedia article that says flat out that: "Up until the Late Middle Ages (link provided) individuals with these conditions were viewed as monsters." Well, I'm sure that's true for some folks whose condition became known to others. But, it would be difficult to prove that it was some sort of universal socialization issue that plagued everyone with the condition. I'll add one more tidbit - gender doesn't map well into our language structures. The three way division that is common in many languages (male, female, and neutral) doesn't work well for everyone's reality, nor does the current supplemental alphabet soup (LGBTQ etc.) - reality would require more letters than there are in the alphabet. I suspect that we are in some sort of language transition phase that will last several centuries. Maybe, the more polite direction to move in would be to excise gender from pronouns. What would work best in the romance languages is anybody's guess. Whatever, this is going to be a challenge for a very long time. It is nice to be living in an era in which we are becoming more aware of such things.

@@charlemagnesclock Thanks for the great information. This may also partial explain the concept of "two-spirit" individuals in Native American society and some Asian societies. "Two -spirit" persons were generally well accepted and often had a special respected place in those societies.

That would also explain the apparent cluelessness of their male clients.

There is an example of a 74-year-old man with four sons that also has ovaries, intersex is a spectrum and it isn't always as cut and dry as look, they have both organs. Secondly, human rights one thing back then, although there's no mention, They were definitively using he/him pronouns. that suggests they probably had a peak. as for not realising, oral sex is still sex so they probably didn't have to let them know.

@@blindbrad4719 intersex doesn’t even exist, much less have a spectrum. The parts of a foetus that develop into ovaries if female, can also develop into testes if male - it’s one way or the other, you can’t have both. It’s extremely rare for a DSD to not determine sex upon sight, mostly it’s just a small penis, or large clitoris (also only one or the other can be had) causing confusion. Today, we look at the karyotype and sex is always correctly defined, male or female; humans are binary from a few hours after conception

Haha! Right! This part gave me a good laugh too! The Seamstresses Guild, of course!

@@AmaltheaVimes lolol glad I'm not the only Discworld fan who thought this

it's a really grim context tbh

I regret to inform you that we have never found a tattooed bog body and it's thought part of this is because of the tanning (like leather) of the skin in bogs. May I suggest desert dessication or ice burial for tattoo preservation?

Also make sure to research which colours of ink are least likely to oxidize over time. You want the darkest possible ink for the longest possible time. Man, I got emotionally invested in this immediately.

This is pure anachronism. People in mediaeval times did not "experience gender". You can't take fashionable phrases from 21st-century discourse and pretend that they correspond to concepts in the minds of people from earlier centuries.

Language evolves as we gain better understanding of the world and ourselves. Who knows what other words we'll have to describe phenomena of the world and humanity in the future for things we simply cant put into words today. Its interesting that sometimes language can truly fail us.

Me too! But it depends on the bone.

That's a good idea!

Computers also devalue information by it's sheer plentitude. Already a good portion of what existed on the internet has been lost forever.

Hem hem

Meredith until very recently used to be a boys name, too.

Meredith is only a girls name in North America.

Time for a Pete-bog spa date when you're old and withered! Be sure to have your name carved onto your bones! Maybe a little poem about you, too!

Sounds painful

OMG I am American and while I prefer English breakfast to American breakfast, I consider Japanese breakfast to be the best breakfast. I have only had it less than a dozen times as I am not a great cook and the one restaurant I found serving it closed due to owner illness shortly after I found it. I wish more people where I live knew the joys of a Japanese breakfast. We had plenty of Japanese restaurants but they don't serve breakfast :(

I had a similar thought considering the passage of David Bowie- would he be forgotten, in time? Or would it be worse to be lost lost among eons of preserved culture, too deep to be penetrated by the living? Or an inherited burden, subsuming each subsequent generation, leaving no room for the new? We are waves on the beach. Beautiful. Transitory. Mattering most to the surrounding swells carrying us to shore.

PUF, will have to look up. Thanks

Knowledge comes from a careful study of the historical records, not from lIvEd eXpErIeNcE or pErSoNaL iDeNtItY. Hope that helps!

Good idea. But gold is too soft. Maybe titanium? You could have it gold plated to catch the eye.

If its gold then somebody will melt it down.

@@sadjaxx It's so cute that you folks reckon their will be people around in a few thousand years. Youthful optimism!

Sadly, it's the same on the West Coast of the USA. Best of luck to you. Houses are now money/businesses not places to live. Thatcher and Reagan monotized homes. This housing problem seems to be in English speaking countries ( Anglo Saxon countries) !

@andrewruddy962 I did manage to get somewhere. Thru a friend, I was able to locate a studio apartment in a retirement village. For the record - I was living in a 3 bed home, so it involved a massive downsize. But this is my own space - all I have to share is a laundry, and I have the possessions I consider the most important to me. If left to the housing authorities - I would've wound up sharing my autistic son's one bed flat for eff knows how long. And his high care needs are a huge part of me developing c-PTSD - so, in that scenario, my mental health gets infinitely worse. What happening hugely in the Western democracies - with the US being where the situation is the worst - is the total breakdown of our social structures. Governments are using carrots to solve massive social disadvantage problems, or they've stuck such problems in the "too hard" basket. Right now - that basket is overflowing, so they have to tackle it but at the same time don't want to make the difficult decisions they need to make to ensure we survive as a species on this planet. My experiences of this year have shaped my thinking considerably, and I'm seeking to do a PhD research program examining it and what needs to be done. But suffice to say every bloody country on the planet needs to reform its electoral, economic & social systems to ensure we don't wipe ourselves out.

So did Eleanor …🌈

Haha but you have to hope the right someone finds it.

@@LC-sc3en Some day the future techno-singularity humans will do a planet wide survey im sure lol. But yeah.

It was just a repeat of what she said a few moments prior about how we don't know Eleanor/John's conception of their gender.

@@demonanastasi3275 thanks so much!

@@HairSuitGentleman I just noticed your username and I love it!