This channel deserves 10 times the views. Just commenting for the algorithms

The real reason to use water/meth injection is to prevent knock, not anything else. The most illustrative use of w/m injection was seen in WW2 combat aircraft, both US and German (the Japanese only used it very little). When looking for power what matters isn’t boost at all, but air mass. Colder air has more air mass, so will make more power with less pressure (assuming the fuel ratio stays the same), which is how an intercooler works. This setup used a constant pressure gate, so for the intercooler made more power, but increased knock probability. Water and methanol are both knock inhibitors on their own, so in addition to lowering the temperature they also prevent knock. This means that when running w/m to gain the most power you need to use more aggressive timing, or increase boost even more. All things being equal, you can run more timing and higher pressure using w/m than you can with an intercooler - but you can do a lot more using both, as an intercooler is even better at reducing temperature, it just doesn’t do anything for knock (other than heat induced knock, of course). The best easy setup is to use as large of an intercooler as you can fit and increase boost pressure until you either get the power you want or become knock limited using whatever fuel you have available (pump gas for a daily driver, of course), then only add w/m if you need more power after becoming knock limited - which should add another 20%+ beyond where you were.

I would like to see egts for each run.

Awesome! Well done! Keep up with the direct comparison videos! You're making isolation bearable! :)

Thanks Richard ! You me help with separating the flysh*t from the pepper when it comes to engine info !

Love this channel. Great work, and presented well.

Nice info. I especially appreciated the comment about the intake manifold was designed to flow air only. That point is sometimes overlooked by people.

Another great video Richard, thank you. Nice so see real data for a good quality air to water intercooler. I know that you can't test all combinations, but related to this test it would be good to see a comparison between knock-limted power without intercooling vs knock-limited power with a good intercooler. I'm pretty sure that would be a powerful demonstration of the many benefits of intercooling. Looking forward to the air vs water intercooler video, up next :)

as always great testing , answers a lot of questions i had..

Big fan of your videos ! Guna build me a turbo last set up here soon I’d love to see more videos for the 5.3 and 6.0s ! Your always super informative with proof to back up what you say.Also your a good teacher I’d like to see videos on tuning if you could!

Hey Rich, I absolutely love all the combos that you put together. I'd love to see a single plane manifold port EFI with a elbow, 103 throttle body with a base plate meth injection, and then run it with and without the intercooler. The cooler the better you say. Thanks again for all that you do.

Great info man as always nobody else gets the details down to a t like u fairly new to ls game in a s10 but if I gota question I come here ... Richard never fails ..........

Great video! It would be interesting to see mass air flow numbers on these runs. Also a fallow up video with per cyl nozzles.

Same timing on the meth?

I needed this video!! I’m using water/meth between my compound turbos and a FMIC after the second one.

Richard, thanks for another interesting vid. Especially the insight into wet distribution. It would be great if you can provide details of parameters that influence power. i.e. fuel, timing, etc to help further understand the results. If timing wasn't changed, I suspect that fueling was being corrected to support the denser IC air and resulting significant HP increase. Observations - I suspect w/m IAT measurement was due to sensor being in the spray stream and not a true reflection of induction air temp. Spraying pre-turbo likely to provide the most accurate results for comparative purposes. Surprised that boost pressure was higher with IC? Cooler denser air? Thanks again for peaking our interest with all these tests!

Juicy info! This guy deserves more attention on KZfaq!

Good stuff. Logical confirmation test would be single plane 4 barrel type intake with an elbow and a plate system for the meth. Maybe Egt probes on each cylinder to as a way to monitor cylinder to cylinder distribution patterns.

I was unaware to the potential distribution issues when adding meth, good stuff Richard you just giving me more to research. LOL

All these videos have so much great information.

Once again Richard great work and thank you. I'm a little late to the party, however, as a cheap and dirty DIY experiment, why not use a tunnel ram intake with Nitrous plates to inject the water-methanol. Better distribution, introduced early for the W-M to work it's magic and the ability to use the nitrous/gas jets in the plate system to adjust distribution.

3 year old video but I'm just seeing it. I'm on Saturn Sky/Solstice forums where everyone is trying to get their cars as close to the 400hp reliably limit of the stock internals. Max power on the cheap is the goal. Stock turbo's with a larger compressor wheel, larger charge pipes, larger downpipe, and a bigger intercooler is the combination. Some run E85/E47 tunes to get a little more. I was debating keeping the stock intercooler and running water/meth since i can't get E85 in my area. After this video I think i'll just go with the bigger intercooler instead of messing with adding wiper fluid to my intake. I won't have to worry about the pump going out and burning up my engine. Good information in your video.

Great Info!!!

Be awesome to see you test the killer chiller intercooler set up. Using the refrigerant and ac compressor instead of water. It definitely works but compare it to a water with ice set up.

WMI nozzles need to be installed on the outside of a 45-90 degree elbow at least 12" from the TB for good distribution. Those BS throttle body swirl thingies actually help. - NEVER put a WMI nozzle before the turbo. It doesn't matter that it's a liquid and the droplets are incredibly tiny, you are throwing mass into blades spinning at hundreds of thousands of RPMs and it does a lot more damage than you'd think.

Thanks for this and all the other. A common mod for a blown Mod motor stang was injection. Svo blower could benefit.

Great video

This channel is a godsend for anyone scratching their heads on where to begin.

I like Your Channel Richard, due to real engineer approach to the subject.

I had a 1993 Mitsubishi evo1 with a manual water spray onto the air to air inter cooler. On a long uphill run in Germany it was pulling 135 on the clock, I sprayed the cooler and it hit pushed 140 on the limiter. My practical proof cooler charge works.

I first read about water/meth injection over twenty years ago. Clearly, the charge air is being cooled, but I remember them saying that the cooling effect happens in the combustion chamber during the compression stroke where the water completely evaporates. I guess their is no practical way to measure this. Great video! Thanks.

Do a video on different sized charge pipes (2.25” ,2.5” and 3”) for turbo combinations and spool up differences, potential boost creep issues with using the smaller pipes with smaller wastegate vs it working fine with the bigger pipes!

Very informative. Thanks

Was your IAT sensor shielded from the the incoming WM hitting it directly? If not, could this have effected the results of the large temperature drop measured? Did the individual runner sensors match the temperature drop of the one behind the throttle body? Great content as always! Love the data!

Snow now makes an individual runner kit,you can plumb your nozzles whevever you want them.they make universal kits as well as application specific kits.lots of options. I also am waiting to see the results of your pre compressor iat test.

Keep in mind the octain ratings, timing and knock all play a role in the real-world. Which were not taking in consideration in here, though you did touch on it, cause the test was Intercooler vs Water-Meth. I rarely watch 15 minute long videos, this one is a must to watch!

I pushed every button

Ive got several ways i see this video progressing

Thanks for sharing your wealth of knowledge. I am curious how well E85 without an inter cooler would work

Great vid again Richard , I run a too small air to air with half the water meth snow wants on a big hp motor with single plane carburetor, have any experience with both running ?

I'm glad you cleared up the question of water/meth injection. I can tell from the comments that everything is now crystal clear to everyone. LOL

Very educational, thanks for sharing. Did you pull fuel out for the water meth run? It would be able to handle more timing as well.

great vid.

Very nice test...I really appreciate the work you do. I dont run intercoolers anymore...I am a water injection guy. That being said.. It is a packaging issue for me. My cars always get faster and pick up boost when removing the intercooler...but my cars don't have the realestate for an appropriately sized AtA intercooler.

Would like to see difference in ratios of meth on maybe a high raise runner single plane manifold love this channel always excited to see a new video

Best channel on KZfaq for gear heads

Ahhhh!!!! water meth plumbed into the nitrous port on the manifolds, like the FAST manifold. Make an adapter.

Another awesome video Dr. Richard Holdener. Man o man you sure stirred the pot this time. I would like to hear what Mr Snow has to say, think it would be great input. I would have bet the water/meth was the ticket. I better make room for a intercooler!!!

I tried on a 6 cyl draw through carby , putting boost pressure onto a sealed water meth bottle that would then spray onto the top of the carby. more boost = more spray, it worked.

Another snow user here. Been running it on a mixed use car ( some street driving,trips to Mexico and drag strip) for going on 3 years. Not a problem. I have pump mounted in the trunk so its away from the elements. Going to buy another kit for my daily that i want to turn up the boost.

as a science nerd, I absolutely friggen love your videos.

Very informative

Thanks again Richard. Any chance I can send you an LS intake manifold you've never tested?? I really like to see it's distribution.

I would like to see the water meth before the turbo and with the inter cooler, also before the turbo.. Even so very good information for turbo and intake temps to keep in mind..

Your charge DENSITY went up, even though boost is only slightly different

I’ve blown my car up 2 times (#7, #8 pistons) running only w/m. Now I’m water to air with water meth and a single plane. Learned my lesson.

I would really like to see this test done with port injection water meth, couldn't get a easy reading on inlet temps but it would be interesting to see how the power curves overlay. ProMeth has a v8 kit, with a 9th injector that can be placed in the charge pipe, I run this myself because I have limited space for an intercooler and I don't want to run straight M1.

I love that you read the comments. Big fan and been watching for a while now. Ask me how i see this turning out. It may shock you.

Ya I surprised you did not put in at least another temp sensor in the rear too and I saw people mention timing which makes sense to me especially with water as well that takes some air space but also doesn't burn well so more timing makes sense to me

Would be great to do some static load, static RPM tests. Say 5000RPM wide open. Hold for 60-120 seconds. Test No IC, A-W IC, A-A IC and WM. + water spray on A-A IC Oh yeah and you really need to get a 3 port mac valve, they've only $30-40. I'm sure Westec can afford one ;)

Great content as always. How about making a video about turbo lag, a too little turbo vs too much turbo for DD vs Racing. Keep them coming..

My old Saab 900 spg I ran h2o/meth injection through the individual runners, easy to do with the layed down engine design, ran it with the factory air to air intercooler. Allowed quite a bit more boost before the APC detected knock and dialed it back.

thanks for this !!!!!

Would be interesting to see what you get on the dyno with a blow through carb, and no intercooler. As rumor has it, the fuel in the carb, cools the intake temps.

I'm curious about the air to air intercooler. its also making me question my non intercooled blower setup with water meth on a stock intake f150 4.6

Thanks for doing this one!!! Boost increase probably comes from temp drop. Cooler air is denser air. If intake side is improved, boost goes up. Exhaust side improvement, boost goes down, BUT power still goes up. I'm still confused why the power increased so much with the intercooler vs H2O Meth even though temps were so close. Hmm.

I would like to see if a single plane intake manifold helps with better distribution

for how cheap and easy it is to run a water meth kit. its a win for me. im running a water meth on my 2014 silverado gt45 12lbs with no intercooler.. was there added timing to the engine with running the water meth taking advantage of the cooler IATs, putting the 1 nozzle in front of the turbo should cool the air being compressed by the turbo and have the 2nd nozze at the tb should do a bonus. and do intercooler with water meth, and WIC with water meth aswell.

How about some turbo testing? I'm very interested in that 7875 next gen vs the Borg t4 s475. Also would like to see how far an s366 or s369 can go on a 5.3. The back pressure vs boost is great info!

Very interesting 👍👍👍

That was great.

Look for higher pressure water injection systems, rb racing uses some interesting stuff for top speed records for example.

Curious if all parameters were optimized for each setup, including advancing the timing, if water was injected proportional to the overall fuel/air mass, or it was just a dumb-inject constant-flow and settings not optimized for each setup. If timing, for example, was not advanced for the cooled versions, then a lot of the potential for power gain was merely squandered. Also, having water proportionally injected at each cylinder's port would make it so one hot cylinder was not dragging down the entire engine.

Good stuff.

I’m not even a v8 Guy. I drove Honda’s my whole life. I have a boosted s2000 making a cute 430whp haha. But I Love the channel man. Seriously makes me what to LS swap something.

Sitting here contemplating the water meth distribution issue. Per port makes the best sense with that ls type intake. I'm thinking along the lines of a spider 🕷 distribution internal to the manifold. Bulkhead fitting to the external single jet point of attachment from the meth pump. I remember seeing how nitrous guys limited to single wet plate rules would have "spider legs" directly aimed into the cylinders that needed help. Heck with a single plane nitrous plate in a x style spray bar configuration could work wonderful for distribution... maybe? Has anyone tried this yet that wants to let the cool cat outta the bag?

Just subscribed, love this guy, like 'project farm' but only big boy engines and measuring real data versus farts per subjective carbon deposit assay per run

Need to test e85, air to air cooler with 2 additional injectors insalled in the charge pipe.

I wouldn't put it in front of the turbo, but I would try moving it further away from the throttle body.

Richard, after reading the first 80 or so comments, it is obvious that people are not watching/ listening to the entire video. You said yourself that the long runner dry intake was not good for water/ meth and that was most likely the power difference. You mentioned a single plane or hi-ram setup would be better for water/ meth. You also said more testing is needed! Nice video.

Would love to see a pre turbo and individual port meth injection to compare the results 🤔. Thank you for all this data

It would be interesting to see this same test on a diesel just to compare results

Hi Richard, great test! However I think for most of us especially with more street /strip oriented LS turbo installs will be running an air to air inter cooler. I know an air to water intercooler is going to be a bit more effective at cooling. However air to water intercoolers are more of a strip only cars type of install for most guys. It would have been nice to also see an air to air intercooler used with a fan in front of it. What do you think the difference may have been? Also I plan on running e85 with my air to air intercooler on my 6.0 going into my street/strip 72 Nova with turbo 400 and twin turbos now. Food for thought? Thanks all your videos are great and teach us a lot with your knowledge and insight! Bob

Thank you richard for another GREAT video ! I would be curious to see EGT change with Meth,and intercooler, is there a way that the EGT's changed the boost level? I ran a turbo motor,and we took a ton of timing out of it,and the headers were glowing brighter red,and the boost went way up. I guess a million degree exhaust temp spins turbo harder ?

Great tests. Imo-if you are going to inject anything it might as well be NOS.

Now this is content!

C can you please show us where you put the second nozzle for the watermouth before the throttle body thanks much appreciated help,s of knowledge from this Video 👍👍👍👍👍

i know alot of the big diesel tractor pull guys use water for cooling and ive seen alot of those guys have a nozzle spraying in front of the turbo. I think that is for the most cooling!

Water going from liquid to gas increases in volume. This volume contributed to the boost pressure displacing the air and lower power output. This is why you see a major A/F change that is not all from the methanol...its from air displacement also.

I used a small nitrous shot on the inlet of my S-Trim. I was spinning it a little fast too fast.

On this video especially and others it'd be nice if you could pan around and show us the complete Plumbing on the headers to the turbo that looks like a combination I could use but I can't see the left side of the engine thank you please respond back

Looks like in the video of the intercooled pull the blow off valve doesn’t appear to open and you hear compressor surge.

If you're an LS guy/fanboy and not subscribed.....you're missing out. Excellent content

Can you repeat the test on a carb with a single plane? I know we get evaporated cooling with carb, but would like to see the changes between pure meth, blend and just water. Before and after turbo. As well as temp from throttle body and bottom of a intake runner.

Very interesting. The IC causing a difference in boost I can see. I don't get the rise in boost for the WM. It's been around for a long time with good results. Anyway, thanks for the good science, this saves me a lot of money. Was planning a WM set up but maybe not now.

I really enjoy watching your videos. Question, does a draw through system cool as efficiently as a blow through system?

Wouldn’t the true advantage of the water-meth injection be that it would allow you to run higher boost (and/or timing) while avoiding detonation? It makes sense that there was not much power gain from WM injection because even though you’ve cooled the intake charge, you’ve added H2O to the mix resulting in a slower combustion speed (similar to high octane gas). I understand that this test was just a direct comparison, but if the same 2 combinations were run with optimized (and maximized) boost/timing/AFR then surely the WM combo would come out leaps and bounds ahead of the IC combo(?) Love your vids Richard, keep it up!

It's probably been mentioned, if not, I think the boost increase was caused by a denser intake charge providing for more exhaust output. The more oxygen from the denser air means more fuel and more exhaust output.

I think a single plane intake fuel injection system, with a plate style water meth injection system would be the best, if you aren't going to run an intercooler.

I wonder if you have ever done a test where water/meth works? Many have but you seem to have a lot of issues with the systems. You added boost and LOST horsepower made same power as non intercooled run with a cooler intake charge. Very interesting testing. I'll keep looking for a successful test by you. Thanks for your efforts.