I agree, that could be pretty cool. I just think its 'cooler' to fight him yourself after spending all that time building up to such a confrontation. ;)

My players love trying that and then swooping in to take out both great evils. Doesn't always work but always fun.

I agree that’s the point and it sets up the characters to decide whether to cozy up to something so evil and vile but powerful to win or try the hopeless and vanity attempt to beat a being as powerful as Vecna. Here’s the thing: there should be beings that are beyond any player to defeat. Otherwise you get into ridiculous and ultimately boring play - imagine supermen without kryptonite. It spoils characters and they should feel very small even when they might be quite powerful. At the end of the day, RPG is about storytelling. So “railroading” at times if used well is just as valid a method of storytelling as is sandboxing (which can contribute it’s own “huh, how does that make sense?” Moments for a DM.

We died before the end, but that was pretty much par for the course for demigods in that Era of play. You almost never got a chance to kill the cosmic evil; we would have counted that a win I'd we could trick two evil guys into killing each other.

@@rynowatcher that's true we did do a lot of heroic sacrifice in that Era. Alot of time that really was the best outcome not to mention totally cool.

Yep, that's my assessment.

Fair. I just don't introduce situation where no matter what the players do they can't affect the outcome. Note, that's not the same as 'winning', but if what happens is 'foregone' then I don't see any reason to play it out, roll dice like it matters, etc. Seems rather pointless to me, but that's my DM style. Others might play things differently. IMHO, its just a good way to play.. ever.

something else that can be done is skip the prolog and tell the players that the circle has vanished and play starting with ch1 BUT give the players a hook leading them to the cracked open tomb and the dead circle THEN tell the players, well... lets see how this happened" as you pass out the character sheets. so make it a flashback

I do that sort of thing regularly. And it works. One or two shots with pre generated characters that act like a "cut scene" to a campaign. It also allows you as a DM to have a completely railroaded session where it doesn't matter if the characters are scripted to die. I did one recently where the pre gen characters were all scripted to die in specific locations on the map. It was only when the final one died, that they realised that if they turned the map 90 degress, knocked down a few walls, scattered a load of debris around the place and have it overgrown with vines and weeds... it was exactly like the ruins their PCs had explored two weeks earlier, and that they had just played out how the Castle had fallen 200 years before, and what the skeletal remains they found had been doing prior to their deaths. They loved it. So don't let anyone tell you that "Railroading is BAD!! FULL STOP" Like so many expert DMs on KZfaq issue as some sort of Commandment." Gives the players a change of pace, and gives them a sense of where they fit into the campaign as an overall story. I think a lot of modern players would struggle with the way AD&D didn't conform to the "Everything must be about Player Agency!" notion. I'm still not sure how most of them cope with any Published Adventure, "How does any of THIS, help ME do MY backstory Vengeance Mission to kill the Bandit/Orc/Wizard/Dragon who murdered my family/tribe/teacher/lover???"

Thanks! Any scenario that makes it so no matter what the PCs do they can't effect the outcome is piss poor scenario design. I stand by that statement. lol

@@captcorajus Come to think of it, That kind of thing was "novel" in 1979-80. Few liked it much then. But in order for there to be good D&D, there must be bad D&D.

I don't have a problem with the vision. I have a problem with them playing characters that are to be killed in game, and no action they take can stop it. I don't feel there's ever a justification for that sort of heavy handed play.

Totally agree, XX. I have no problem whatsoever with the beginning and the flashback.

@@captcorajus I've actually seen it used rather cleverly.

Thanks! Glad you enjoyed!

Well, its the module that said the sword doesn't work against Vecna, not me, but I can understand the logic. Vecna is an evil genius. Seems perfectly reasonable to me that he would have built in a failsafe.

That's exactly the point. Vecna was not a Greyhawk setting character at all in the original lore. He was a character in Brian Blume's D&D campaign. This module not only shoehorns Vecna into Greyhawk & concocts never-intended setting lore, it changes the membership of the Council of Eight. The original Co8 was entirely comprised of Gygax's characters. It's no accident that the module misrepresents Gygax's setting & characters & kills off his Co8 at the beginning. TSR at the time had open contempt for the person who founded the hobby it was milking. Look at the other Greyhawk material they were producing post-Gygax: Puppets, Gargoyles, Child's Play, Castle Greyhawk. It's all garbage. Kwalish originated in Tim Kask's D&D campaign at college & got borrowed into Blume's campaign. Post-Gygax TSR shoehorned him into Greyhawk, too. TSR at the time had copyright on settings and characters it knew nothing about. Hasbro has the same issue today. Dave Cook wrote great D&D material, but this module wasn't his best work. Not by a long shot.

Glad you enjoyed it!

The giant eye and hand I think can be made horrifying if presented correctly. But you're right, its rather silly.

@@captcorajus I think it was the picture of them bending over a table with other acolytes of Vecna that sparked me. Anyway thanks so much for your reviews, history and insights I relaunched my Campaign with new groups over lock-down after my daughter and her friends wanted to play. We did my 1e with some rule adjustments version rather than 5e so it is great to get your insight into the old modules. I am currently adapting one of the classics which really means just gutting it except for the map and some of the descriptions traps - all great fun!

Glad it was helpful! I would start sprinkling in various elements. An encounter with the Cult, introduce some of the NPCs from the module... Circle of 8, their henchmen, Mordenkainen, and some of the locals, especially the City of Greyhawk, and you've got a solid foundation for a campaign.

Seems unlikely as Season 4 takes place in 1988, and this was released in 1990, but he might have been running his own version! lol

@@captcorajus Yeah I interpret the "Vecna Lives!" comment by Eddie as a tongue in cheek easter egg referencing this, as it would be anachronistic for it to exist yet.

@@captcorajus 1986

These are true words. lol

Yeah, I don't have all the modules in the series, and I sort of dread starting a review of that without doing the entire thing.

@@captcorajus totally understandable. Thank you for all your great videos. They bring back so many great memories.

Yeah, I like a lot of the elements here, as I said, I just do not like the opening or the railroady nature of a lot of it.

Understandable!

I was curious about how it went for people who played this out as written. Thanks!

@@captcorajus the ending was different, we didn't get Iuz. In fact, I had no clue Iuz was involved until you mentioned him. My paladin actually picked up Vecna and jumped through the portal with him, ending the threat. Other than the ending, it was pretty much straight.

@@laurelhill3505 Now THAT'S what I'm talking about. Epic! Did your paladin survive or what it a sacrifice for the greater good?

@@captcorajus the DM made the gods resurrect him, which I really didn't like. I wanted it to be the grand sacrifice. Kind of spoiled the ending for me. But, like I said, I got to PLAY! Was like manna from heaven.

Yeah, that's pretty much my take on it as well!

What is the problem with the Tavern Brawl? Seems pretty straight forward combat with a cult trying to stop the players.

@@EdvandoFilho honestly we were not being very good players We were feeling a little salty about the odd opening (believing that we would be playing the circle of 8 the whole adventure) so when the cult attacked we out of character made WAY to much fun of the hand and eye dudes. Really bad behavior and hurt the DMs feelings. We begged for a second chance and he came up with a brilliant Star Frontier game.

Its an idea, though for me, I'm not a fan of overlong readings.

Thanks. I've pronounced it that way for 55 years, seems unlikely that I'll alter my pronunciation.

@@captcorajus Wow I had to look it up. I've been pronouncing it "wrong" since I got AD&D back in the day. It's funny because when watching videos like this, I noticed how lore-specific names are sometimes pronounced different. Like I tend to say Kas with a z sound, don't know why. But I like that sort of thing because there will be dialects within the game world too. And I pronounced Iuz differently. Good stuff!

@@azcoder I've seen several pronunciations for 'Iuz' over the years, but this IS Gary Gygax we're talking about here. "Eye-Ooze" just seems like his sort of schtick. AND kind of appropriate for a chaotic evil demi-god. lol

@@captcorajus I like it!

When the situation results in a pre determined outcome regardless of what the PCs do that sort of the very definition of railroad, but i get what you're saying.

I'm going to review City of Greyhawk here shortly to be sure. I love the boxed sets, but the early 2E adventures were very broken as you say. Very text dense, with little in the way of playability. This review seemed 'timely' given the interest in Vecna (forgive me for playing to the youtube algorithm on the rare time it actually hits on subject matter I actually cover. lol)

@@captcorajus I really liked this review and understand the reasons. I Haded no plans to introduce my kids into D&D before their 12, because I have a group of 10 regular players and haved no rush. But my oldest daughter start to work her english (we are southern brazilians) and are press me to run D&D the old school way (with psionic rules) for her and her friends because Vecna Modules (and Eleven). Keep going and bring the others two.

Lol.. thanks! Its rare that I pull out the 5 rating, but there's enough in this module that one might use as a resource that I considered it worth doing a review on. If someone buys it off this review they know exactly what they are getting.

@@captcorajus This is the only Vecna module I have. Do you know are the other ones tied to this module? Die Vecna die for example?

Vecna's Teeth are part of his cult, specifically the branch responsible for crafting magic items. They wouldn't really be on the front line fighting anyone under normal circumstances.

Yeah, I've heard that some have a problem with the fact Vecna was able to escape from the 'powers that be'.

​@@captcorajus by the time that happened, ravenloft lore was already falling apart. for example, there was a multi-adventure campaign Arc that centered around a z a l i n discovering a way to break free, override his curse preventing him from learning new technology or spells. I bought the set because the last adventure was a box set that included rules for playing Undead characters and for converting a live character into an undead equivalent. something very unusual for second edition but common now. they also had Lord s o t h return to dragonlance because Weiss and Hickman were pretty upset about him being dumped into ravenloft. to the extent of having a novel commission that had him being returned because he basically accepts his fate, so the mysterious Powers release him. perhaps fitting with the character, but it also broke ravenloft lore. there was also something about a conjunction story arc, and after the a z a l i n Adventure modules ravenloft was completely altered in terms of its layout. now, to be fair I don't really know the specific timeline for all of the things that I've rattled off but to my recollection they all happen around the same time so my guess is there was some kind of frustration with how Raven Loft was becoming a bucket for all of the big baddies from all the settings. this was also around the time when the very concept of ravenloft was changing in my opinion. it was originally envisioned as a place to put the most powerful players. to give them a challenge when they had reached a point where nothing could challenge them based on level and equipment. it was an entire setting that was predicated on being top-tier difficulty level. some spells didn't work, clerical Powers were muted, good aligned characters were weakened and evil aligned were strengthened. and the Lord of each domain was being punished but also was essentially a God in its own realm. I think the biggest problem wasn't that it broke the lore by letting him out but rather the lore was being broken by people who weren't, essentially, respecting the authority of those maintaining ravenloft. not to say that anyone was right or wrong in it, but you see the same thing in modern comics. decades ago you had editors that worked together and made sure that what happened in one story didn't invalidate another one, but these days there's little attempt at maintaining continuity. the same thing was happening here, and that might have been part of that time period when Lorraine had fully taken over from gary.

Exactly. To me, rolling dice and playing it out like a regular combat/ scenario implies the players have a chance to change things or make a difference.

@@captcorajus Agreed. If this is just a preordained outcome there's no reason to drag out the dice.

Nadda, nope, nah. If the PCs can have no effect on the outcome, why are you even playing it out??? What are the dice there for? Sorry. Have fun how you like, but for a commercial module release? It's utter nonsense and piss poor scenario design.

@@captcorajus because during this prologue they are not supposed to, it is simply an introduction they get to be a part of it as long as you look at it that way everything is fine :-) Also, there is nothing wrong with encounters where the players should not and cannot win lol, learning to flee is part of being a good gamer as well

@@MizakiFelix Agree to disagree.

@@captcorajus that we can do good sir :-)

Well, yes and no. I had it on the 'to do' list, but, of course, its always beneficial to release things that are timely. ;)

Vecna is a Lich, which makes him undead. :)

I appreciate the input, but my problem here is not with the players. My problem is.. that the opening scenario pits the DM against the players. The DM is actively trying to kill the PCs. To me, that breaks TRUST between the DM and the players in a big way, and I don't think that's a good thing.

@@captcorajus I'm not sure how that would break trust. As long as the DM is playing dar, ie, not fudging the dice, then I don't see a problem.